---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Some alternate views on hop and alcohol levels. ("Dr. Pivo")
  drink driving limits (Edward Doernberg)
  Re: Low gravity (KMacneal)
  Low og on extract brew (Aaron Perry)
  re: brazing copper to stainless? ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Malt Liquor??? ("Scott Church")
  Re: Alpha and Beta Amylase (Jeff Renner)
  Framboise bottles and caps? (STOBIN2394)
  Spanish Moss (Dave Burley)
  Re: Malt Liquor??? (Some Guy)
  Coconut in Beer & Aussie Posts (Jim Bentson)
  Building Backyard Bathyspheres In Burradoo (Phil & Jill Yates [mailto:yates)
  Adelaide Brewpubs and Sorbate (LyndonZimmermann)
  Re:South Asutralians ("Darren Darren") (Darren)
  Rail City and Imperial Stout Request ("R&P Aceto")


* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:52:44 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Some alternate views on hop and alcohol levels.

Some recent postings on massive hopping rates awakened a response from
Tom Logan. Responses to his posting were by and large negative, ranging
from it's content to it's single paragraph construction (it's ok Tom, I
misspell every third word, and generally lay out my sentences in
non-English syntax).

I must say that I agree in most part to at least the principle of his
leading comments.  I make a trip to the states about every other year,
and my continuing impression of micro breweries there, is that their
beers are "over hopped", or more succinctly, don't have enough other
flavours to support the chosen hopping rate.

I think this stems from my "three stages of brewing" theory.

Stage I: Fumbling.  The new brewer is really in a hit or miss operation,
and can produce any odd flavour you might imagine, and amidst this will
turn out some truly brilliant things.... but they won't be repeatable. 
They just don't have control yet.

Stage II: Extreme.  The brewer now has a bit of control over the
process, and generally goes "pretty wide in the turns" in some aspect of
the brewing.  Some go for as high an alcohol content as possible, others
try and pound as much dark grains as possible into the brew, but most
opt for extreme hopping rates.  Having been accustomed to the relative
paucity of flavours in commercial brews, this is sort of a "backlash"
reaction.  Since hop aromatics are never present in long stored beers,
this can be a pretty thankful area to proceed in to make a "unique" beer.

Stage III: Refined.  Getting a better hand on the whole process, the
brewer now tries to keep a balance between sweetness, malt flavour,
bitterness, hop aroma, and any esters and other tricky stuff that may be
milked out.

So... I consider the hopping rates at micro breweries to be a "childhood
disease" of a relatively new industry (I am quite sure that some people
will be getting their "8====>" in a "&" over that comment).

I would stress that brewing at home, allows one to do exactly what one
wants, in any extreme direction at all. I'm sure most people have had
the experience of having someone home who "doesn't drink beer", only for
them to find that they quite enjoy your richer flavoured version.  It's
hard to win over those virgin palates with half of Mount Hood in the
kettle, and I think it is a pity that we are missing the opportunity to
raise beer's status among a wider population.

Having said that, I find hops reputation as a soporific highly
overrated. Why just last weekend, I was sitting in the cellar of a
micro, and we were tanking ourselves liberally.  We had no problem
chattering and solving the world's problems until 5 o'clock in the
morning, and I was quite chipper as I hopped onto a bike and pedaled away.

As to hops having any inhibative powers on either libido or
performance... I've never heard that one....and as I started pedaling
away yodeling "De la Sier-ra Moreno...."  (Just warming up for the
"AY-AY-AY-AY!" part). I crashed over onto the grass (who says you never
forget how to ride those things once you've learned).  I came
nose-to-nose with a hedge hog, and I was really prepared to invite her
home, until my friends came and convinced me that these trans-species
things never work out.

In fact, when I think about it, almost every time I've been guilty of
"thinking with the wrong head", it seems to have been after quite a few
beers, which tends to contradict the hop hypothesis and the limp noodle.

Admitting my poor connotative understanding of English; I'll be willing
to take on the "drunk" title that everyone seems to be shying away from
like a booger on an hors d'oeu'vre platter.... why, as proof of that, I
was invited to dinner the night after the brewery debauchery, and was
served a glass of red wine (there was no beer).  Now I am of the belief
that the best thing to do with a bottle of good Bordeaux, is to make a
"coq au vin" and eat it drinking a pilsner to it.  A good sauterne makes
a nice sauce with dijon, to serve to a freshly caught trout and some new
potatoes cooked in dill..... (did I forget the pilsner part?)... but I
drank that glass of wine anyhow, 'cuz THERE WASN'T ANYTHING ELSE....
what a sinner.

There has been requests for some scienterrific evidence about blood
alcohol levels and driving abilities.  I've been involved in that kind
of research, and I'll tell you it's mostly "  at  ~ " (this particular
"nasty ASCII" must be read with the head tilted to the right, and one
must imagine the sound of horses hoofs and a wind bearing from the
right... admittedly a bit far fetched, but I already got in the "knot"
one earlier).

You see, alcohol is a complicated drug (toxin) and exhibits
characteristics of both a stimulant and a depressant.  The main
"sooky-la-la" comes during the "rush" of increasing alcohol levels to
the brain, while one accommodates pretty well as levels are falling.

In other words, in all measures of "degree on drunkenness" such as
reaction time, balance, short term memory, and something called
"diadokinesis" which just means being able to rapidly change movement
patterns, you'll score worse at a blood level of .05 on the "way up"
than you will at .09 on the "way down".

In other words it's a pretty crappy indicator of how impaired you are.

Quite frankly, I think it was a better method for the suspecting officer
to do his on site neurological evaluation, and if suspecting that the
driver was impaired, doing an alcohol level.  I certainly think I can
recognize a drunk, and I think a trained police officer can as well....
but this would require "common sense", and trusting that a trained
professional can do his job, and we are trying to outlaw those things at
the moment... in fact there is a piece of legislature up for vote at
this very moment which will require finger guards when nose-picking...
why just last week in Vermin Ohio, a guy stuck his fingernail right into
his brain.

I suppose we will have to accept the breathalyser method since it is a
"no-brainer", and besides, what else have we got?

In the days when alcohol blood analysis was a hard thing to come by, we
had to rely on such primitive methods as "open container" laws.

And believe it or not, there are still some underdeveloped parts of the
world where those laws are still in place.

Dr. Pivo


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:35:20 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: drink driving limits

i probably shouldn't continue this barely beer related thread that has no
specific relevance to home brewing but i feel i should contribute. if for no
reason other than to show that even if Australia is a land of relatively
heavy drinkers (many people i know drink 1-2 every night) we don't all
condone drinking while driving(and i suspect nobody hear dose either).

in western Australia the limit is now .05% with an increased penalty if your
above .08 and i believe this is good.

i know at .05b i am not thinking as clearly as i could be. 

i don't think the limit should be any lower because i want to be able to
have 1 beer at the pub and drive home (with full strength beer that's about
all i would trust myself with) and there are considerations like liqueur in
foods and the natural yeast in your intestine. mouth spray will already put
you over if you use it immediately before the test but it dissipates quickly
enough (some people think it will reduce the reading).

what i think we need if anything is stronger penalties. especially above the
 .08 limit and more testing of drivers.

Other than that there are some rules I relay don't get.

E.g. it is legal to walk around the streets completely plastered (I work ate
the serves station doing graveyard shift on Friday and Saturday so I see
them all) but it is illegal to have an open bottle of alcohol with you even
if your sober. The penalty is $50 but not cops will allow you to pore it
out. Why do I have to deal with drunks trashing the shop and bleeding all
over the place (did happen) and you cant carry a bottle from one party to
the next.

Edward




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:08:43 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Low gravity

In a message dated 7/29/2000 12:20:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, S. SNYDER" 
<SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com> writes:

<< I just finished brewing an extract recipe of Theakston's Old Peculiar which
 should have had a gravity in the 1.060 to 1.070 range if I recall correctly.
 After the brewing I chilled the wort to below 80F, added water to a little
 over the 5 gallon mark, and pitched the yeast (XL Wyeast 1089 I believe).
 Then I remembered I forgot to check the gravity.  It was about 1.020 to
 1.030.  Why the hell would it be so low? >>

I suspect that the water you added wasn't throughly mixed into the wort when 
you took your gravity sample.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:15:31 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: Low og on extract brew

Hi,

Scott wrote:
> I just finished brewing an extract recipe of Theakston's Old Peculiar which
> should have had a gravity in the 1.060 to 1.070 range 
<snip>
> Then I remembered I forgot to check the gravity.  It was about 1.020 to
> 1.030.  Why the hell would it be so low?  The boil was a perfect rolling
> boil for 60 minutes.  First I steeped the grain bill for 20 minutes at 150F,
> then boiled that with 6.5 lbs. of extract, 4 oz. of syrup, 1/2 lb. of brown
> sugar, etc

Did you shake the piss out of your fermenter before you took your reading?
Maybe you're getting a "black and tan" effect. the low og water sitting on top
of the higher og wort, with enough mixing to give you your 1.020-30 pts. It's
just a theory.

Hope this helps
AP


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:45:09
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: brazing copper to stainless?

N.P. Lansing asked if any one knows of a brazing alloy that is compatible
with both copper and stainless steel?

Don't know about brazing but I've used StayBrite solder and the liquid flux
that comes packaged with it sucessfully on knives (brass and nickel silver
to SS blades and a 1/2" Cu pipe coupling to a hole in a < 1/16" wall
thickness SS tank).  It won't be as strong as a welded, brazed or silver
soldered joint but if the joint has enough surface area and stress is not
severe, it'll work fine.  I like the stuff because it doesn't require alot
of heat- a cheap propane or MAPP gas torch is usually enough and is
stronger than ordinary lead/tin solder. 

Hobby stores that handle RC airplane supplies usually have StayBrite.  Flux
specifically made for stainless steel works a bit better than the flux
supplied with StayBrite tho'.  Sand the joint surfaces first and then
degrease with acetone or something that won't leave a residue.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:15:39 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: Malt Liquor???

I have a question about the term "malt liquor".
The term seems to be used with some ambiguity and inconsistency at times.
At first guess, I would have thought that it was any fermented alcoholic
beverage that was produced (largely or partially) from a "malted grain".

Anyone with a good definition of this term wish to fling it at me?

Thanks

Scott
Tampa, Fl.





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:04:42 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Alpha and Beta Amylase

Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> wrote:

>People often do not recognize that beta amylase is actually active below
>149F, but the barley starch is not gelatinized and is therfore is not
>readily available to the enzyme.

That would appear not to be strictly true.  Steve Michalak of A/B wrote a
couple of days ago:

>Budweiser is mashed-in at 109F and converted and 147F.

I have brewed at least two very successful, very well attenuated beers at
119/148F (followed by 162 foam stand and 170 mashout rests), and conversion
appeared to be complete before the mashout.  Like amylase activity, starch
gelatinization is not a yes/no kind of thing at any one tempterature.
Besides, I rather thought that the barley starch geleatinization
temperature was in the lower 140s, but I don't remember.  I s'pose I could
look it up.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:47:15 EDT
From: STOBIN2394 at aol.com
Subject: Framboise bottles and caps?

I have a Ferrari bench capper that says I can get a larger bell for larger 
caps.  I assume that is what I will need to reuse all of my lambic bottles 
(they have slightly larger caps) that I have floating around.  Does anybody 
else out there use these?


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:33:23 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Spanish Moss

Brewsters:

Del Lansing suggests using more Spanish Moss in his brews to reduce the
haze. Really! Maybe I should just go out and pull some off the trees south
of here!  {8^)

Of course, Irish Moss, normally used in Britsh ales, isn't moss but
seaweed.

All this discussion of tannins and haze and Del's comment that he never
heard of a ( pure?)  tannin haze reminds me that one item that has not been
part of this running discourse is that tannins form hazy complexes with
metal ions like iron, etc. This may also be a factor in your discussion.
Don't know if the heating would improve by precipitating these hazes, but I
assume so as it is a common technique in quantitative gravimetric chemical
analysis ( boy, that was  long time ago!) to age the precipitates by using
heating and time to get a better recovery by growing the precipitates'
particle size to where it could be filtered better.

I suppose using distilled or deionized water might help in understanding
this issue.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:45:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Malt Liquor???


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Scott Church writes...

> I have a question about the term "malt liquor".
> The term seems to be used with some ambiguity and inconsistency at times.
> At first guess, I would have thought that it was any fermented alcoholic
> beverage that was produced (largely or partially) from a "malted grain".

The explanation comes from "Tax Man", as performed by the Beatles
(although SRV's rendition is quite appealing, too...), and is interpreted
as follows:

"Malt Liquor" is simply a political label intended to reclassify a beer
into a higher tax slot. Generally, a beer is classified as a malt liquor
when its alcohol content is above some number very scientifically set by
the opinions of politicians. Also, generally speaking, the beverage is
derived, at least in part, from malt. Note that there is another
classification of "malt beverage" for those insipid things which don't
classify as beer ("wine" coolers made from malt-derived ethanol and fruit
juices, for instance, or "Zyma". Probably "Tequiza", as well.). It's
arbitrary, it's assinine, and it's all ours (US).


- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday





Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:19:03 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Coconut in Beer & Aussie Posts

Darrell Leavitt recently asked about using coconut in beer. I made a
coconut Porter from a Zymurgy recipe in 1998. The original recipe had won
best of show at the AHA conference in 1998. 

One thing, get the dry coconut from a health food store as the supermarket
type has propylene glycol in it and I would not put that in my beer. I had
no problem due to oil using this type of coconut.

In the recipe I used, there was 1 lb of coconut for a 5 gal batch. The
coconut was first toasted for 10 min at 325 deg F. Use a baking sheet and
stir while toasting. The coconut will have a golden color when done. Add to
the secondary.  The 1 lb in 5 gals gave a very noticeable taste. Too strong
for myself and also many of my friends who appreciate good beer. I would
try 3/4 lbs to start. Good luck!

One problem I did encounter is that the coconut floats in the secondary. I
lost more beer than usual when racking from the secondary to my bottling
bucket due to the coconut blocking my syphon cap at the end. You could
solve that by doing a tertiary fermentation and straining the coconut out
of the secondary liquid at the end ( or just make an extra 1/2 gal).


Concerning the spate of Aussie non-beer posts;
 I  only go through the HBD  once a month and am surprised at how much
wasted bandwidth is being tolerated relative to  the Aussie's attempts at
humor. Come on guys, there are many  pertinent posts being pushed back a
day or two due to the constant stream of Aussie posts with nothing in them.
I know I can "page down" but almost 1/4 to 1/3 of the latest issues are
pure nonsense.What is really a problem is reposting something not related
to beer  just to make a one line comment. Now I have to skip the same
article twice! 
Anyone else feel the same way or am I getting too old for the Digest???

Jim Bentson



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:34:21 -0400
From: Phil & Jill Yates [mailto:yates at acenet.com.au]
Subject: Building Backyard Bathyspheres In Burradoo


Rightly might you ask yourself the question :
"What the hell is this lunatic up to now"?

Well, Wes Smith and I have come to the conclusion that the only way to
escape whinging wives and children, howling dogs and demented cats, and
truly enjoy a peaceful homebrew, is to build ourselves a bathysphere in
which we can sit and contemplate.

The other great advantage is ultimate control over carbonation. But it is in
this area that I have a few questions.

Let's say you have gassed your beer up at 30psi, rather overdone to be sure.
Sitting in our bathysphere, Jill struggles on the external billows until Wes
and I (sitting comfortably in our smoking jackets) are enjoying an
atmosphere at 30psi.
What has happened to our beer?
Will it now be flat?

Conversely, Wes and I enter the chamber with our CO2 regulator carefully set
at 15psi. In more predictable fashion, Jill pulls the big lever which
immediately evacuates all atmosphere from the bathysphere (of course, Wes
and I were not smart enough to incorporate oxygen masks - in short, we've
had it chums!) My dying question, as we sip our last in a total vacuum is
"what is now the reading on the CO2 regulator"?

Sorry to be so inquisitive on a Sunday night.
But I've run out of beer!!

Phil
Baron of Scientific Matters
Burradoo





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:39:04 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: Adelaide Brewpubs and Sorbate

Darren,

there is only one Brewpub left in Adelaide, The Port Dock, 10 Todd Place,
Port Adelaide. Scrub any memories of the Port being a rough spot, it's been
done up over the last ten years. The Port Dock is also a great place for a feed.

I think there were four Brewpubs in a rush about ten years ago, one remains.
Say g'day to the Brewer, Stephen Nelson, and give him my email address.

Paul,

I referred to Rankine's "Making Good Wine" on Sorbate.  Maximum legal level
is 200mg/litre, though apparently detectable at 130mg/litre.  Sorbistat K is
75% sorbic acid and is 56% soluble at 20C.  It doesn't work on all yeasts,
so you may need to filter or pasteurise.  Effectiveness is low when yeast
concentration is high - so filter or rack thoroughly first.  Geranium taint
is caused in red wines that undergo a malo after dosing with sorbate.  

The rule here is also to ensure the wine is well protected with PMS and low
pH - bacterial action on sorbate is apparently nasty.

Lyndon Z

Lyndon Zimmermann
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:34:28 +0930
From: Darren <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re:South Asutralians ("Darren Darren")

Howdy darren,
The only brewpub I know of here in South Aust is the Port
Dock Brewery.
The address is 10 Todd St. Port Adelaide. Tel. 8240 0187.
Darren


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:11:12 -0400
From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net>
Subject: Rail City and Imperial Stout Request

Greetings all-

Thanks all for the help with the IS request.  I al hoping to do an extract
batch soon with the addition of Maple Syrup to as Emeril say's "Kick it up a
notch"  that is why i was asking about the Champain Yeasts as the Syrup has
a ton
of fermentable sugars, we shall see how it goes.

Now on to the other part of this post.  recently one of you asked for
details about Rail City Ale.  as a Vermont resident I am familiar with Rail
City in
the following ways, it is a great series of brews, and, THEY CLOSED UP SHOP
THIS MONTH!!!  what a pain in the .....  if you can find the following beer
where you are i suggest you try Otter Creeks Pale ale, not a bad sub. but
certainly
no Rail City.  Sorry for the bad news and thanks again all for the help.

Wishing you all Tight Lines,

Russ










Return to table of contents

---