---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Palm Pilot stuff ("Jeffry D Luck")
  yobbos and water (Keith Busby)
  From The Times (Keith Busby)
  oops (Keith Busby)
  Re: Maize malting ("Keith Menefy")
  RE: Beta Amylase ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Thanks for info Wyeast 3522 Ardennes ("Warren White")
  Noble Hops!  Why Royalty???? (Rod Prather)
  Attaching bottle caps ("Henry St.Pierre")
  alpha/beta amylase (Regan Pallandi)
  Advance on Zymurgy Special Issue ("Ray Daniels")
  My "false bottom" (Prestoniam)
  I swear I will never ever use pellet hops again. (Edward Doernberg)
  Defining Hot Break (Ant Hayes)
  grain prices (homebre973)
  Regarding the BJCP's removal of the Malt Liquor category... ("Bev D. Blackwood II")
  Bottle cap adornments ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Attaching Bottle Caps ("Peter J. Calinski")
  re:gelatinization again & drunken stupors ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Black Malt vs. Black Patent Malt (rgilmor)
  I was wrote when I drunk this ("Alan Meeker")
  Kunze / Fullers ("Lynne O'Connor")
  Quickdraft Bottling - Thanks! ("Steven J. Owens")
  RE: Aussie Nonsense Or Scientific Thirsting? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  dry hopping ("S. SNYDER")
  Re: To be an aussie ("Leland Heaton")
  Pat? ("Eric Fouch")
  re: Kunze book ("Paul Kensler")
  Bottle caps (Dave Burley)
  helles (Marc Sedam)
  Revision to Amylase Posting re: Dextrin Formation and Degradation ("John Palmer")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 02 Aug 2000 12:32:52 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Palm Pilot stuff

I recently picked up a Palm Pilot and am wondering if there 
are any recommendations for brewing software for the gizmo.
Also, I'd like to move my brew log from PC to Palm and would
like to hear any opinions on a good DB program, or a 
spreadsheet template or anything else in use.

Feel free to post or email me directly, and include software 
in the email if that's convenient.

TIA

Oh, BTW, any vintners with Palm-ware may also reply.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT   USA

Having a wonderful wine, wish you were beer.





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Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:31:46 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: yobbos and water

Since Debi is rash enough to ask, "Yobbo" is a British term, and I suspect
our antipodean brethren and sistren may also use it. The original form
"yob" is simply "boy" backwards with the "bo" added for assonance or
rhythmical purposes. It generally means something between the boisterous
and thuggish, hooligans, loutish teenagers,  the type who hang around
public places making nuisances of themselves, drunk or sober.

On a beer-related topic, I have just brewed my first beer at the new
residence here in SE Wisconsin. The water is well-water, run through a
softener with salt-pellets. I also noticed that said pellets have an
additive which is supposed to preserve the softener device. It will be
three weeks before I can sample the beer, but does anyone have experience
of brewing with water from such a set-up?



Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


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Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:36:36 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: From The Times

Relating to the thread on mild, I thought this article from the London
Times (8/2/00) might be of interest. Burnley is exactly where you'd expect
a mild to be brewed.

<<Winning ale is born to be mild

             BY ROBIN YOUNG 

                   Links 
  AN UNFASHIONABLE mild ale was
  chosen yesterday as the best beer in Britain
  by an expert panel of brewers, beer writers
  and journalists at the Great British Beer
  Festival at Olympia in West London. 

  Moorhouse's Black Cat, produced in
  Burnley, Lancashire, and described as "a
  smooth, well-balanced dark mild with a
  fruity aroma", was chosen overall winner in
  preference to more than 30 other finalists
  from five categories. 

  Mike Benner, head of campaigns and
  communications for the championship
  organisers, the Campaign for Real Ale, said:
  "This is only the third time a mild has won
  the competition, and the last time was 20
  years ago. At a time when many brewers are
  dropping their milds claiming drinkers don't
  want them, this marks a real achievement for
  Moorhouse's. It promises to turn the mild
  market around." 

  Malcolm MacDonald, of Moorhouse's, said:
  "This is proof that a mild style of beer is still
  appreciated by today's drinkers." 

  Camra has consistently campaigned for the
  maintenance and revival of mild beers, a style
  which was particularly popular with
  industrial workers in the North because of its
  refreshing flavour and lower alcoholic
  strength. 

  The beer festival, which is expected to attract
  more than 40,000 visitors, remains open
  until Saturday evening. >>




Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:37:56 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: oops

Sorry, that seems to have been Don usurping Debi's e-mail address.


Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:03:55 +1200
From: "Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Maize malting 

Following up on Jeff Renner's comments

On seed maize. I just assumed that all seed would be treated. All farmers I
know that grow maize use hybrid seed. May have to switch to sweet corn.

>>There was a huge amount of hot break. Like a big oil slick!!
>
>I think of hot break as normally referring to coagulated proteins.  Was
>this like that, or was it actually oil?  There certainly could have been a
>fair amount of corn (maize) oil.  I think I'd remove it too.

I didn't actually check to see if it was oil or not. I just did not like the
look of it and the amount that was forming. I stopped the boil after 5
minutes and skimmed the stuff off. Seemed to work OK. Certainly stopped the
tendency to want to boil over.

>You didn't say what percentage of maize you used.  I assume something like
25%?

Yes, when I read the post in HBD I thought 'foolish boy, you never put the
quanties in'. and I am going to have to stop talking to myself to.
The percentage of maize used was 20%.

Cheers Keith




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Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:9:42 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Beta Amylase

At approximately 150 or a little higher, bet amylase is denatured.  There
are beers that I have produced that require enzyme addition.  One of the
enzyme is a Beta Amylase.  This increases extract by breaking beta-linked
carb chains.

A beta rest isn't always necessary.  But the idea that alpha works best in
the 150's is wrong.  It's curve of activity has two peaks.  The optimum is
at about 70 degrees.  Second, in the 150's.  But has activity throughout
that temp range.  Therefore, alpha action is never eliminated.  Even during
a beta rest it is still working, just not as well as beta.

One doesn't make one type of sugar either.  The only difference is the
bonds that they break.  Chains are large and random (in the relationship of
total bonds), and a mash at say 149-150 still makes a good fermentable
wort, and good glass of beer.






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:14:53 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Thanks for info Wyeast 3522 Ardennes

A thousand thanks folks...

I now have a better idea on the profile of this yeast and will
use it for a trippel in about a week.

I had a sneaking suspicion that it was the L'Chouffe yeast,
your posts have now hopefully confirmed this.

I'm probably the first homebrewer in Australia to
use it (guessing)... my supplier is the Australian
distributor for Wyeast and generally can get it
shipped in pronto (Date on pack shows only 3 weeks old).

My only concern about using it for trippel would be that
with an O.G. of 1090, the specs say that this yeast is highly flocculent.
I just hope that this beer doesn't end up with a high F.G.

I think I would also shy away from using it in the 80's.
as you would probably be able to smell the Phenolics
all the way up there in the U.S. The low 70's sounds
like a better plan of attack...

Thanks again - keep you'all posted!!!

Happy brewin folks...
Warren L. White (Melbourne Australia)
The Arse End of the Arse End of the World!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:09:28 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Noble Hops!  Why Royalty????

Could someone explain just what makes a hop a "Noble Hop".  Certainly they are 
known for aroma but is there some chemical constituent that makes them so?  

- --- OR ---
Is this label of royalty just something adorned on certain hops because 
the Hop King likes them better?  Maybe one that married his Ugly Hop Daughter 
or won in a hop jousting match?   Do we address them as "Sir Hop"?   Are 
there peasant hops?  
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana



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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 02:28:27 -0400
From: "Henry St.Pierre" <hankstar at mhonline.net>
Subject: Attaching bottle caps

Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger asked:
 Question:  Can any of you brew-inventers think of a way to attach
(unflattened) bottle caps to an item of clothing (a hat, a vest) without
piercing the top of the cap?  In addition to the labels, I've got a
collection of great bottle caps with cool logos on them, that I'd like
to adorn some brew-gear with.  Any advice welcome.

A long time ago when the earth was green we used to attach bottle caps
to our clothes by removing the cork gasket or seal from the cap, then 
placing the cap in the desired position on the outside of the garment,
we would then push the cork gasket back into the cap from inside the
garment (making a sandwich type of thing). 

Today most caps don't have the full cork gaskets (seals) as the caps of
yesteryear did. It should be quite easy to come up with something
similar. 
Hank


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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:48:02 +1000
From: Regan Pallandi <regan at esb.net.au>
Subject: alpha/beta amylase

Brad asked about mashing in high and allowing temps. to drop. My own
observation is through an overnight mash, which obviously starts high and
high extraction (in the most recent case, was aiming for a 1.048 wort and
at 1.010 using Whitelabs San Fran lager. Dave B. was alluding to this in
his latest post also. 

cheers, Regan


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:43:44 -0500
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Advance on Zymurgy Special Issue

Hello all:

Just thought I'd shift out of lurking mode to give you some advance info on
the upcoming Special Issue of Zymurgy (Sept/Oct).

First, the subject is Historical Beers and it includes an in-depth article
on Classic American Pils from Jeff Renner as well as great pieces on the
Outlaw Beers of Germany by Randy Mosher, American Colonial Beers by Gregg
Smith as well as other pieces about Heather Ale, Gruit Beer and Mumme. Also,
in response to member requests (and because it feels right!) we have
returned to the practice of listing all the recipes from the Gold Medal
winners in the National Homebrew Competition as the Winner's Circle section
of the special issue.

Production of this issue was wild and wooly. A normal Zymurgy these days is
64 pages and the special issue was planned for 72. When we got everything
together a few weeks ago, we discovered that we had more than 90 pages of
content! (Hey, I'm still new at this.)

While doing a 90 page magazine was clearly out of the question, AHA
president Paul Gatza and I both wanted to bump it up to 80 pages. We both
believe that AHA members deserve a special issue that is both distinctive
and more substantial. While it was something of a challenge financially, we
see the additional cost of this move as a worthwhile investment as it
provides direct and tangible member benefits. In the final analysis, all
agreed to go for the 80 pages.

Part of the added cost is perfect binding. That means that the spine of the
magazine will be square like a thin paperback book and it will have copy on
it so that you can quickly find it on the shelf for future reference. While
we will return to the regular size and binding again starting with the
Nov/Dec issue, we will budget for perfect binding of the special issue in
future years so that they will always stand out.

Of course to get 90 pages down to 80, I had to do some really serious
cutting and cramming. We completely took out some of the regular columns and
cut copy from nearly every story to make things fit. (Sorry authors!)  Still
I'm happy with what we are presenting.

Finally, the 80 pages is only possible because of support from AHA members
and of course the advertisers who appear in Zymurgy.

So, that's about it for S/O Zymurgy. Now I'll resume lurking.

Ray Daniels
Editor-in-Chief
Zymurgy & The New Brewer
E-mail:  ray at aob.org



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 07:28:29 EDT
From: Prestoniam at aol.com
Subject: My "false bottom"

After reading in the digest some of the problems that some were having with 
getting a tight fit for a f/b in an Igloo type cooler, and I was finally 
resigning the zapap lauter tun to history, I went to Lowe's (that's a large 
hardware store to you aussie's) where I purchased a filter that's used in a 
system for fish ponds.
 It's made by "Little Giant" and has two filters, one is coarse, the other a 
finer material. They were about 12x24" in size and each an inch thick. I 
carefully measured the diameter of the bottom of the igloo (gott, 
rubbermaid),  made a template of 1/4" plywood,  placed it on the filter, and  
used a utility knife to cut around the template.
    I don't know what the material is made of,  looks like nylon, but I had 
used one all summer in a fish pond and it had held up well.  Before using it 
for my igloo I wanted to make sure the filters were color fast so I soaked in 
bleach solution for about 10"  then rinsed numerous times in hot water, then 
in boiling water.
    In the bottom of my Igloo is a cpvc 1/2" manifold, but I cut a few pieces 
and laid them at random in the bottom to make sure the mesh filter didn't 
collapse under the weight of the mash.  I can tell you the thing worked 
beautifully. Not as much recirculating was required, and when I dumped the 
spent grains the filters came out clean. I rinsed with hot water and laid out 
to dry for the next use.  
'


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:29:00 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: I swear I will never ever use pellet hops again.

I swear I will never ever use pellet hops again.

I just finished my second ever-mashed beer and it was nowhere near as easy
as the first.

First I got a stuck sparge. I couldn't recalculate much because it blocked
up this will teach me to use oats and more wheat than barley when I cant get
rice hulls. Anything else I cold use.

I couldn't get the hops I wanted in plugs so I used pellets unfortunately
the bags broke and the kettle straining system is badly clogged. In future
if I cant get plug hops I wont be brewing.

In spite of all this the wort is most delicious and I am tempted to drink it
as is rather than allow any yeast a chance to botch it.

This send 15L is more than I can consume in a siting and I cant sterilize it
so I will have to rely on a 2L starter of 1068.

I also bottled my first mashed beer it was a very simple pale ale with only
2 row and crystal and EKG. It seemed to have a harsh bitterness. I will give
it a month conditioning (it will take that long to carbonate in winter) and
see how it is then. Any ideas on what it cold be.

I'm considering getting some hops from the eastern states (of Australia)
they will take some time to arrive so what types are most likely to be useful

Edward

ProMash Brewing Session Printout
- --------------------------------

Brewing Date: 8-3-2000
Head Brewer:  Edward Doernberg
Asst Brewer:  
Recipe:       puppy suprise

ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Printout
- -------------------------------------------------

Recipe Specifics
- ----------------

Batch Size (LTR):       15.00     Wort Size (LTR):  15.00
Total Grain (Kg):        4.60
Anticipated OG:         1.073     Plato:            17.59
Anticipated SRM:          4.3
Anticipated IBU:         15.3
System Efficiency:         75 
Wort Boil Time:            60     Minutes

Actual OG:  1.080   Plato: 19.19

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 83 

Pre-Boil Amounts
- ----------------
Evaporation Rate:       2.00    L Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:   17.00    L
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.064    SG          15.64  Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar
- -------------------
   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Gravity   SRM
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 26.1     1.20 kg.  Pale Malt(2-row)              America        1.036      2
 43.5     2.00 kg.  Wheat Malt                    America        1.038      2
 21.7     1.00 kg.  Flaked Oats                   America        1.033      2
  8.7     0.40 kg.  Honey                                        1.042      0
Hops
- ----
   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 12.00 g.     Saazer                            Pellet   4.30  10.2  60 min.
 12.00 g.     Saazer                            Pellet   4.30   5.2  30 min.
 17.50 g.     Goldings - E.K.                   Whole    4.75   0.0  0 min.
Extras
- ------
  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  6.00 gm     cinnamom (ground)              Spice     60 Min.(boil) 
  6.00 gm     cinnamom (ground)              Spice     30 Min.(boil) 
  6.00 gm     Sweet Orange Peel              Spice     30 Min.(boil) 
  6.00 gm     Sweet Orange Peel              Spice     10 Min.(boil) 
  0.62 Oz     Corriander Seed                Spice      0 Min.(boil) 
Yeast
- -----
WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen

Mash Schedule
- -------------
Mash Type: Multi Step
Heat Type: Direct
Ltr Water Per Kg Grain: 0.00    Total Ltr: 0.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Grain Temp: 27 C
Protein Rest Temp:           55  Time:  45
Saccharification Rest Temp:  65  Time: 120
Mash-out Rest Temp:          75  Time:  10
Sparge Temp:                 75  Time:  60



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:06:33 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Defining Hot Break

In a post yesterday, Peter J. Calinski asked, "How to create multiple hot
breaks and are they good or bad? "

He defined hot break as the foam at the start of the boil.

I have always understood hot break to be the coagulated material that builds
up in suspension during the boil - proteins and tannins and so forth. A good
hot break has occurred when 30 minutes after the boil, just prior to heat
exchange, the wort is pretty clear. I am not sure how the production of foam
during the boil affects this though.

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:22:00 -0400
From: homebre973 at mindspring.com
Subject: grain prices

 Not to get too commercial, but I wanted to get opinions
  on what is the best site to buy grain  (malt) on the
  internet (considering shipping costs also) for someone
  living in N.C.  Please reply by e-mail so as not to
  commercialize the digest.  (homebre973 at aol.com)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:50:34 -0500
From: "Bev D. Blackwood II" <blackwod at rice.edu>
Subject: Regarding the BJCP's removal of the Malt Liquor category...

(And I'll apologize in advance if I'm covering ancient history or 
repeating something someone else has posted.. I'm a first-timer on 
the list...)
I have to admit it doesn't strike me as much of a category and 
certainly one which generates little interest among brewers, which is 
a good reason to drop it.  However, some of the most classic moments 
of the 1997 Dixie Cup surrounded the judging of the malt liquor 
entries.
The category was offered as a semi-joke, requiring all entries to be 
submitted in 22 oz. or larger containers and brewers were warned in 
advance that the beers would be judged from the bottle (no cups) 
which had to be in a brown paper bag.  Watching a few master judges 
pass around a bottle, each taking a swig (or two) was hilarious, made 
even more funny by the judging location, out by the dumpster of the 
hotel.  The winner wound up being shared among all the spectators.
The same beer was (of course) passed on to the BOS round.  Fred 
Eckhardt refused to follow the "judging guidelines" for the beer, 
resulting in a great deal more hilarity, but his comment "we're going 
to give this beer a fair chance before we throw it out" underscored 
that they DID take the style seriously...  The beer was actually 
complimented by the BOS panel for being a fine example, but the level 
of quality just wasn't there... They gave the spectators the bottle 
to pass around while they moved on.
Elysian in Seattle had an AK-47 Malt Liquor that I really enjoyed at 
the GABF, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think it can't be 
made well.
 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com/


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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:54:05 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Bottle cap adornments

>Question:  Can any of you brew-inventers think of a way to attach
>(unflattened) bottle caps to an item of clothing (a hat, a vest) without
>piercing the top of the cap?  

Rob,

Get a cheap glue gun and some safety pins (about $5 - $7 total).   But this
requires that you swallow your pride as a macho, heterosexual male and walk
into a fabric store or a crafts shop.  Easy out: Bring the wife, girlfriend,
mom or bribe a strange female to go with you.  If that fails, just walk into
the store unshaven with a beer in hand and scratch often ;-)

Just glue the safety pin to the back of the cap.  If you're really
adventurous and want to explore the "girlie store" in more detail, you may
even find pins specifically designed to be glued to the back of decorative
pins.  Try experimenting with the hold the glue has on lined vs. unlined
caps though.  You wouldn't want to lose a prize cap while on vacation or
something.






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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:27:11 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Attaching Bottle Caps

Rob Hanson asks,

" Question:  Can any of you brew-inventers think of a way to attach
(unflattened) bottle caps to an item of clothing (a hat, a vest) without
piercing the top of the cap?  In addition to the labels, I've got a
collection of great bottle caps with cool logos on them, that I'd like
to adorn some brew-gear with.  Any advice welcome."

Reminds me of a trick my father used to do 45 years ago.  Back then the
bottle caps had an inside liner made of cork.  He used to carefully pry the
cork liner out without damaging it.  Then he would put the bottle cap on
the outside of my shirt and put the cork liner inside the shirt and insert
it into the bottle cap.  The liner would snap into the bottle cap and hold
the cap to the shirt.  It wasn't permanent however, a little running around
would work it loose.  Maybe you can come up with a stiffer, tighter fitting
liner. 

Of course now-a-days, letting a child so close to drinking paraphernalia is
probably illegal.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:21:23 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re:gelatinization again & drunken stupors

Joseph asked,
>>Conversion seemed to take a
 little longer than usual & the final wort was really hazy (like
cornstarch in lemon juice, sort of like a Widmer Hefeweizen),
 it took about 3 weeks for the stuff to settle out...
turned out a fine batch nonetheless.

Is this typical with gelatinized wheat?  Does the barley enzyme
 need to work longer to digest the mass of wheat starch or is 
the starch in the wheat partially malted by the rolling process??<<

  You used flaked wheat right? it is not malted and so doesn't
go through the protein and beta-glucan degradation that occurs
in malted wheat. I would expect a stickier, cloudier mash and
run-off wort. The slower conversion would come from dilution
of the barley malt exzymes. Part of malt's enzymatic power
developes during malting; I'm assuming this happens also
in malted wheat. I've not found a spec on the diastatic power
of flaked grains, not that they don't exist, just nobody seems
interested in that number so it isn't generally distributed by
the suppliers.

- ---------------------------------
 On letting children observe drunkeness, simply set a good example.
If you get out rageous drunk and let your kids see you wearing lamp
shades and being loud and offensive, that is what they will emulate;
a no-brainer. Anecdotally: One new years eve while watching a Marx
Brothers marathon with the step-children and sharing some tamed
down sloe gin fizzes with them, after a coupla drinks they started
acting funny and walking into walks and generally acting like
stereotypical drunks. Not wanting to encourage that sort of behaviour
I told them if they didn't behave they have to go to bed. In one second
all the odd behaviour stopped, we had a few more drinks and finished
watching the Marx Brothers and had a few chuckles, no more staggering
and wall bumping. It was what they had seen on TV they were thinking
they must do when drunk, not real behaviour. The youngest, when I served
him wine with dinner, not knowing what to do he fell back what he had
seen on TV wine tastings; swirl-sniff, swirl-sniff, sip; he properly
enjoyed
the accompaniment with the pasta.
 So drink infront of your kids,
let them see you give the car keys to the designated driver when it's time,
let them see you say, "No, I've had enough." and guess how they will
act when drinking. Hide your drinking from them and they will hide their
drinking from you.

N.P. Lansing


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:35:13 -0500
From: rgilmor at us.ibm.com
Subject: Black Malt vs. Black Patent Malt



Greetings all,

I have recently received a book on North American Clone Brews and would
like to brew up some
of the receipes but I am confused on some of the ingredients that the
author uses.  In some receipes,
he says to use Black Malt and in others he says to use Black Patent Malt.
Are these the same thing ?
If they are different, what type of flavor does Black Malt give to a beer ?
I have some Black Patent
already, can I substitute Black Patent for Black Malt without altering the
flavor ?  Normally I wouldn't
worry too much about it but these are receipes for "cloning" so I figure he
must have chosen the specific
malts for a reason.  Thanks for your help.

Keep on Brewin',

Rick Gilmore




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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:41:03 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: I was wrote when I drunk this

I hesitate to continue this thread as it is, as I feared, spiraling to
extremes. But what the hell...

Pat wrote, in part:   "On hyperbole: It isn't. I believe my point was very
succinctly stated in..."

Pat, the part of your post I was criticizing was where you responded to
Steve saying, "How many kids do you have, Steve? I hope to God they are not
treated to the sight of their Dad wandering about in a drunken stupor every
time you get the thirst for a beer."  Hyperbole it is.

Pat also wrote: "And I do have children. And this is how my parents handled
the upbringing of me and my five siblings. And none of us are
drunks, unemployed (or unemployable) nor in prison. I'll take my lessons
from that experience, thankyouverymuch. You can take yours from Steve if
you prefer."

Well, my Dad was certainly known to drink to excess on more than one
occasion. In fact, his parties were legendary for ending in all night
song-fests with all the guests gathered around the piano singing their
innebriated hearts out. Of course, that was in the era of cocktail parties
where hard liquor and cigarettes were the order of the day. My sister and I
witnessed much of this as we grew up and strangely we didn't develop into
alcoholics or criminals either. The example set for me was that you could
get drunk and have a grand old time on occasion while still holding down a
job and maintaining a productive life. Now, what I witnessed from the
smoking on the other hand...

 -Alan Meeker, high on life in Baltimore





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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:45:01 -0500
From: "Lynne O'Connor" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Kunze / Fullers

Charles Beaver asked about Kunze availability.  I've been selling Kunze
book (English ed) for a few months now, the price is $125.

Sean Macleod inquires as to hopping in Fullers beers.  I posted some info
earlier this year (#3274 and 3279) based on the tour I had with the
assistant brewmaster.  I did not get details on when they add hops other
than I do know that both Chiswick and ESB are dryhopped at rate of 3 plugs
(1/2 oz each) of Kent Goldings for 9 gallon cask.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Quickdraft Bottling - Thanks!

Folks,

     Many thanks to the several fine folk who advised me on bottling
with quickdrafted beer (in alphabetical order: Aaron Perry, Ant Hayes,
Ant Hayes, Chris Cooper, Dave Sapsis, Eric Lande, Glen Pannicke, Jeff
Renner, Mike Marshburn, Ronald LaBorde, WayneM38).  

     The general response was that the right way to do it is with a
counter-pressure filler, but that I could likely improvise by using a
hose to fill the bottle from the bottom, and making sure the top is
filled with foam before capping.  Most also recommended chilling the
keg and freezing the bottles to reduce foaming.  Chill haze was a
possibility a couple folks warned me about, but since the beer in
question is Dark Sleep Chocolate Stout, that won't be a problem :-).

     I could have winged it, but since I'm a gadget junkie, I ran out
and bought one of Phil's counter-phil fillers.  Is he still on HBD?
Unfortunately, I got it home, opened it up, read the instructions
(Phil, nice product but how about some diagrams??) and found I didn't
have the spare keg tap to attach it to.

     It's not surprising that the box didn't come with a tap,
considering the wide variety of tap types possible, but it would have
been nice if there'd been a big, obvious note on the outside of the
box: KEG TAP NOT INCLUDED, whatever, something to notify me that I'd
need buy one.  The counter guy said he didn't sell a lot of them (the
price is high enough to make the average brewer think twice or thrice
before buying one) so he probably didn't know I'd need a tap.

     So I bottled the uncarbonated Rocky Raccon Crystal Lager I had
sitting in a carboy (tasted pretty good, first time with that recipe
for me) and I'll go back to the brew store today and pick up some
spare keg taps.

     My roommate, who was helping me bottle and sampling the Dark
Sleep, said it didn't taste like it had alcohol and didn't give him
any sort of buzz.  It tasted a bit hoppy to me, but it didn't taste
really sweet, like a stuck fermentation (I've had those before, one
extremely hot summer).  His normal fare is a Rolling Rock in one hand
and a gin & tonic in the other, so it may have just been the heaviness
of the beer confusing him.  Unfortunately we weren't tracking the
specific gravity so I can't think of an obvious way to test (other
than the classical "test to drunken oblivion" approach :-).

Steven J. Owens
puff at guild.net



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:12:09 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Aussie Nonsense Or Scientific Thirsting?

From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>

>..Moving along, what do we know about carbonation measurement? I must admit
it
>took me awhile to get a handle on the concept of volumes of CO2. Not even
>sure if I have the right handle on it. Perhaps someone can help...
>
>..When we say our beer is carbonated to, let's say, two volumes of CO2,
what
>do we mean?..

Not sure if this is any help, but it got me thinking about measuring
carbonation.  Recently I had the occasion to play around and see if I could
make some carbonated water.  I know, I know, but it was for my dear wife
Gail.  See, we  just came back from our trip to Germany and Czeck Republic,
and Austria where she and lots of others drink carbonated water.

So, I was telling her I could make some, or I thought I could. So I put some
bottled water into my 2 liter x-coke bottle, and carbonated it using a
carbonator cap.  I had it fairly cold, and began shaking the water with
about 40PSIG of CO2 on it, and after about 5 minutes I let it rest and tried
it out later.  Sure enough I was able to make carbonated water!   I also
tried the same thing with RO water, and it also worked, with a different
taste. So the minerals do make a difference in the taste.

So what's all this leading up to?  Well, as I was shaking, I was thinking,
how can I know when I have just the right amount of carbonation.  I was also
thinking about the great little Ohaus beam scale my son gave me for
Christmas (great gift).  It is so sensitive that I can detect the addition
of 2 barley grains when weighing some grain.  This seems quite sensitive, I
thought.  Well, I had this idea that maybe I can weigh the water first, then
start carbonating and then weigh again and see how much the scale will show
me.

So for now this is the end of the story.  I will try it very soon and report
the results. Would anyone like to guess the outcome?

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:24:45 -0400 
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com>
Subject: dry hopping

Thanks to all who replied to my question about low gravities.  I did forget
to thoroughly mix the wort and water, typical dumb move.  Always start with
the simplest answer first.

Another question: When one dry hops during racking to the secondary, do you
put the hop leaves in the secondary first then rack?  The hops seems to
float to the top of the secondary which makes me wonder how much flavor will
be imparted to the beer.  Should I agitate the carboy by a little shaking to
redistribute every so often?

Thanks again for all the help.

Scott Snyder
ssnyder at lbghq.com

"I had a handle on life. but it broke off.


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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:17:12 PDT
From: "Leland Heaton" <rlheaton at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: To be an aussie

>From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>

G'day all

Gave some serious thought (for a change) to a posting but before that<

I am kind of hurt that you didn't think before you responded to my post.  
But that is ok.

>>From: "Leland Heaton"

Graham, Phil, Jill, Keith, Lyndon, etc...Can I be an Aussie? :).. <

Well i suspose its possible, but you'll have to talk to those wousers down 
south about that.  We all know that we up here in North Queensland succeed 
long ago.  Now to be a true North Queenslander, thats just bloody hard (but 
not impossible).  It takes a knowledge of physics (understanding the the 
physics of suction when a genital grabbing frog latched on, and the ability 
to remove it and nothing else),<

Well, first I would grab my liquid nitrogen tank (I always carry a spare), 
and drop a couple drops on that frogs own genitalia, and then when it 
screams out in pain and lets go of my personal happy spot, hold him on the 
ground by his neck and then gut him, and eat him for supper.

>biology (so you can avoid those tourist seeking salties and taipans, and 
>understand how to make a good chunder),<

I am still a youngin, don't exactly know what chunder is but I'll give it a 
go.

>chemistry (well I hope you are going to brew here, and to deliver the 
>perfect chunder),<

Once again, a little offended but not much,  OF COURSE I AM GOING TO BREW.  
You will have to bear with me for a while, for I cannot do all-grain yet.  
Maybe I'll just be your apprentice.  All I require is a box to sleep in.  
And I am a great guard dog.

>tact (how else can you convince SWMBO that she still is the only one after 
>the frog has its way),<

Still don't know what the SWMBO is except for some awful beast, but every 
married man has one :).  But I lack the expierence in this area.  But I am 
not going to get into my love life.

>social skills (those many awards that are available, did I mention the 
>chunder) and of course a healthy disrepect for all things law obiding (that 
>should cover the rest).  After that we can then really start educating you 
>into the finer points of our culture.<

Do you have bowling alleys?

>For instance, WHERE"S MY BLOODY CARTON. Putting my name first doesn't cut 
>it mate, you wont get your passort that way.<

Once again...I lack the culture, I don't know "CARTON", but if I offended 
you I appologize, matty Graham Sanders dude almighty master beer brewer.

As for your sake...Would that not require a still (illegal I believe over 
here in non-aussie land)?  And would not the fungus leave a harsh taste to 
the brew.  I don't know much about this subject but it sounds interesting.  
What would the taste be like, there seems to be a lot of alchohol to inhibit 
most flavors or I could be wrong.  More information or point me in the right 
direction.

I do have a rule with all my friends.  What ever you put in front of me I 
will drink.  If I yak, I yak, but I will try any drink, just to expierence.  
This seems interesting to me.  But I am going to stick to brewing for now...

PS....Thousand Oaks got it's first brewpub, I plan on going there tonight, 
to see.  I am very excited.


"Cherrio"
Leland




________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:25:18 EDT
From: "Eric Fouch" <airrick147 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pat?

"hiring a doppelganger by the name of Arthur Hampstead from East Grand
Forks, Minnesota to make public appearances for him for the last several
years. "

You mean that wasn't really Pat at the NHC?

That's a bit of a bittersweet revelation:

My picture with "him" didn't turn out, but I had imagined him a bit more 
butch than this Arthur Hampstead character.


Another finely crafted note brought to you from the mind of Airrick147.
OK- Supermonkey helped.  A little.

"Prediction is extremely difficult.
Especially about the future."
 - Niels Bohr

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:35:42 -0400
From: "Paul Kensler" <paul.kensler at attglobal.net>
Subject: re: Kunze book

Charles,
I ordered mine directly online off the website several months ago.  I
received an email response in a day or so, and got the book a couple weeks
later...

If you can't reach the folks in Berlin, though, try St. Pats - they
typically carry a large selection of books, including the advanced texts.
www.stpats.com or 512-989-9727.  No affiliation, just a satisfied customer,
yyy.


PK



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:18:34 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Bottle caps

Brewsters:

Rob Hanson asks if anyone can think of away to fasten bottle caps to
clothing.

Well, in the good old, bad old days, a long, long time ago, when Coke was
something you drank, Coke bottles came with a composite cork disk as a
sealing gasket betweeen the metal cap and the glass bottle top. This disc
was removed and the cloth inserted between the bottle cap and the cork
disk. This was reassembled by pressing the cork disc along with the cloth
back into the cap and bingo!  the cap was affixed to the cloth without
harming the cap or cloth. You could be Coke Sheriff  for the day.  I
suggest you try the same procedure with today's plastic lined caps, but use
a rubber or cardboard washer or disc to hold the cap to the cloth. That way
no hole needed. If you want to make it permanent, try epoxy.

Keep on Brewin',

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:43:59 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: helles

Hey all:

Just back from a great trip to Italy and Germany and found a
new favorite beer.  Ayinger Helles was wonderful and I'd
like to try and replicate it.  I know the new "Helles" book
came out...are there any recipes in there that try to
approximate Aying.  Of course I need to step up (no pun
intended) the need to get the Ayinger culture from YCKC.

If anyone has thoughts on how to make Ayinger's dunkles too,
that would be great.

Cheers!
Marc





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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:33:05 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Revision to Amylase Posting re: Dextrin Formation and Degradation

Marc Sedam wrote me in reference to yesterdays post regarding this
statement:
>Also, let's be clear about Alpha Amylases functionality- it attacks
>the same 1-4 straight chain bonds that Beta does, but does it
randomly
>to within 1 glucose of the 1-6 bond branch point.

>From his previous work on modified food starch in the food science
industry, he stated that alpha amylase only worked to within 7 glucose
units of the branch point.

This seemed odd to me, but I went back to Brewing by Lewis and Young
and found the following (excerpts):

*Like beta amylase, it acts only on alpha-1-4 links, but it acts
randomly; this means that any alpha-1-4 link in the starch molecule
(except those in the immediate vicinity of an alpha-1-6 link at a
branch point) is as likely to be hydrolysed as any other.*

Which would seem to support my position. However, on the next page in
a figure caption, it says this:

*Beta acting alone cleaves maltose molecules starting at the
non-reducing ends and halts when it approaches a branch-point. The
remaining molecule is aptly called the beta limit dextrin. If alpha
acts at 1a (middle of a chain-jp), it gives access to the interior of
the molecule and new beta action initiates at the nesw non-reducing
and these structures survive into beer as unfermentable dextrins, some
with quite significant size.*

And a few pages later:

*Most wort dextrins are branched molecules and contain the 1-6 link of
the starch that malt amylases cannot attack. The degree of degradation
by alpha amylase, which cannot approach within a few glucose units of
a branch point, and the closeness of the branch points to each other
in the amylopectin molecule determine whether the dextrins contain one
or several branch points, and this determines the size of the wort
dextrins.*

To summarize:
Alpha may only come within 7 glucoses of a branch point, but tends to
leave a smaller dextrin than beta would on its own. In an analogy to a
tree, the beta limit dextrim would be a limb, while an alpha limit
dextrin would be a branch from that limb.

John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
http://www.howtobrew.com
(sitemap located at http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html )





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