---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  another drunken opinion (Beaverplt)
  Relax! (Some Guy)
  Selling Beer (Epic8383)
  Noble Hops (Cat 2, 7 & 42) (Joe)
  Selling Beer ("Eric R. Lande")
  Re: No Subject (first mash) (Steve Lacey)
  Spewin', AJ! (Steve Lacey)
  re: Diabetic beer ("George Matsuo")
  Porky's Gypsum (Steve Lacey)
  Land O Plenty (Ant Hayes)
  re: Bob Shotola (hot side aeration) (Seog Lee)
  Ayinger yeast, Belgian ales ("Grant Stott")
  Complexity and grain bills ("Jim Verlinde")
  Etching beer glasses (Tidmarsh Major)
  Bill's Paranoia ("Richard Scotty")
  New career potential! (Some Guy)
  DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS (Jim Bermingham)
  Drunks and prohibition ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: What is a SWMBO anyway? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: the decoction momily... (Joel Plutchak)
  re: Malt bills and tasting techniques ("Brian Lundeen")
  Bacteria that survive autoclaving? (Jesse Stricker)
  Prohibition (Beaverplt)
  The R word ("Cloutier, Steve")
  Beer & Airplanes (GarthFanY2k)
  Cardmom ("Warren White")
  back to beer:- No Subject(all-grain) ("Stephen Alexander")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: another drunken opinion

I've been brewing my own stuff for only 3 yrs now so
my opinion is probably jaded with inexperience. 

I've never had anyone that I've talked with about my
hobby come close to accusing me of being a drunk or
even bring up the subject of inebriation. Until I read
it in this digest I never gave it a thought. The
questions I usually get are about what flavors I make
or what the process is. The only question close to
drunkenness is when people ask if my beer is "more
potent". The worst comment has been something to the
effect of "OH, You must like that dark crap". 

I doubt that anyone really considers us drunks. I
prefer to look at it that they are curious about
something they don't know and this is their way of
attempting to understand it. It's our job to educate
them. 

A question to the Aussie's. I was sent a list of
questions that people have sent to various agencies in
your country about the olympics. It's long but quite
funny. I didn't want to post it unless you folks want 
to see it. It has nothing to do with beer so I wasn't
sure about posting it.

Keep smiling


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:44:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Relax!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"I might as well quit" worrying about how home brewers are perceived. It
apparently isn't worth the effort - though I choose to disagree on its
import.

"Bye" I'm going on vacation and won't be able to moderate the queue. Karl
will do the best his time allows (he is FAR busier than I), but you might
as well expect some spam.

The bouncing messages and such: Thought that by "shutting down"and
removing references I would prevent my mail account from being swamped
while away. Bad decision - my method also nuked my website! Nonetheless,
don't expect email replies from Sat to next Sun.

But thanks for your kind sentiments, where they were offered. And special
thanks to RCD. You know why...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:47:01 EDT
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: Selling Beer

   Andrew,
  It depends on where you live. In the US, the IRS and the BATF will be all 
over you as alcohol sales are highly regulated (read: taxed). Not to mention 
that you are making a food product, and your local board of health will want 
to inspect the premises. Come to think of it, local zoning laws may also 
apply as you are now a light industry. What the hell happened to private 
enterprise?!!
       Gus


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:49:53 -0700
From: Joe <Joe at supply.com>
Subject: Noble Hops (Cat 2, 7 & 42)

Rod asked: 

>Evidently no one took me seriously when I asked about what distinguishes
>noble hops from those less royal.  Anybody got any ideas about this or 
>do I have the HBD Think Tank stumped here?  How about it?

Phil answered:

>Noble hops typically have low alpha-acid levels and if I remember right,
>similar Mercene and Cohumolone levels. These are the compounds that are
>responsible for the aromatics if I remember correctly.


<Begin Catagory 2>

Apparently to be considered  "Noble" a hop should have low Myrcene levels,
higher than average Farnesene levels and a level of Humulene at least equal
to but preferably high than that of Myrcene.(1)
Almost none of these hydrocarbons survive into the finished beer without
dry hopping. However, their oxidation products contribute important flavors
and aromas to finished beer. Linalool oxide, an oxidation product of
Myrcene, gives a "floral" flavor and has been highly correlated with
European hop flavor.(2) Humulol has been associated with European hop
flavor.(3) Humulene dipoxides have been associated with spicy flavors.(4)
Aging of certain hop variaties actually increases the "Nobility" by
allowing production of more oxides.(5)

Ha! How's that for some number 2!(6) Big technical terms with citations and
everything. There are other important hop compounds but I'm too DRUNK from
drinking all my HOMEBREW in an effort to alleviate the headache(7) I got
when I crashed my motorcyle while not wearing my HELMET on the way home
from watching the FOOTY game to remember. Obviously this was caused by
HSA.(8) Oy Oy Oy!(9)

Joe
http://perrigoue.com

1. R. Daniels, "Designing Great Beers" 93-97
2. T.L. Peppard, S.A. Ramus, C.A. Witt and K.J. Siebert, "Correlation of
Sensory and Instrumental Data in Elucidating the Effect of Varietal
Differences on Hop Flavor in Beer", ASBC Journal No. 1 (1988) - Jeeze,
those guys could really use a homebrew.
3. Peppard and the rest of the fun-time-hop-party crew again.
4. Peppard again damn it! Why don't you just give it up Peppard! You crazy
bastard! From hell's heart I stab at thee...
5. Lam, Foster and Deinzer, "Aging of Hops" 763-770
6. Poop.
7. Me, "My Head" (the big one)
8. S. Alexander, "My Life as Big Bad Beer Man on the HBD or Neener Neener
on Your Head Doc Pivo." 109-752.
9. Austrailian for Oy Oy Oy!



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:28:29 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Selling Beer

In HBD #3400  Andrew McLaughlin wants to know about the ramifications of
selling beer.  Andrew, buddy, don't do it.  I would suggest contacting
your state's liquor controlling authority and the ATF to find out exactly
what the federal and state regulations are and how you go about getting
licensed.  I would guess that it is not worth the expense and hassle
(sales tax collection, health inspectors, etc.)...especially for brewing
in five gallon batches.  I can remember that in college we could not hire
a band for fraternity parties because the PA Liquor Control Board would
not let us charge $ to help cover the cost of the band, unless we didn't
have any adult beverages.  They called it 'selling alcohol without a
license' and were very strict about it.  I think that you should just
share your beer with your friends and let the others wish they were your
friends.  Good luck and let the HBD know what you find out and decide to
do.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:55:19 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Re: No Subject (first mash)

Bob Shotola wants a bit of advice as he sets forth on the lifetime journey
that is mash brewing.

>>1) In the interest of least oxidation of mash, should I stir it very
little 
during the step process?<<

Stir several times, say every 30 min or so. It won't hurt. Just don't start
whipping away at the surface like a demon. It won't matter if the stuff
moves around. It is what happens at the interface between the liquid and the
air that will most affect how much oxygen gets introduced. Just use common
sense and, as I said, as long as you don't thrash it into a foam, you should
be right. 

>> 2) How does one transfer the mash to the lauter tun from mash tun so as
to 
also not oxidize?<<

With  just a bit of care. Use a 2 L plastic jug or similar. Just empty it
gently without excessive dropping.

>>3) I could either try to step mash in my new 10 gal. brewpot, or just 
infusion mash in the plastic lauter bucket, saving the transfer and possible

aeration.  I am making a lager. Will there be a big difference?<<

It shouldn't matter too much either way. I would be more concerned with
maintaining correct rest temperatures than avoiding HSA at this stage of
your brewing.

Hope this is helps.

Steve Lacey
Sydney



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:39:55 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Spewin', AJ!

AJ opined..
>>I find it hard to believe that the lexicon of basic Strine which has
been paraded past us appears to have omitted the widely uses "spew" (or
did I miss it?). To put it in context.... never mind.<<

This just goes to show how you can be unaware that something in your lexicon
is peculiar to your lexicon. It probably just didn't occur to the learned
linguists amongst us that this was a uniquely strine idiom. But better than
just being a coarse word for vomit, it also means to be annoyed, angry,
outraged, pissed -off. eg. "I was spewin' when I discovered that the abuse
Pat received over what he didn't say caused him to throw in the towel and
cough, not that I blame him"  [Here cough is another possibly uniquely
Australian abbreviation meaning to go, leave, exit, vamoose, scram as in
 .... 'k off.]

Oh by the way. Despite having transgressed myself with the above, I have
some sympathy with those who find the parading of strine as tedious. I have
no problems with off-topic posts, provided they are entertaining and amusing
(The Baron being the master of this), but I find nothing novel or clever in
hearing Aussie slang brandished about as though it is some kind of original
and novel contribution. Bazza McKenzie was dead by about 1977 and none of us
could hope to better Sir Les Patterson at sending up Ockerism. I accept that
this forum is predominantly N. American dominated and feel that manners
would dictate that I avoid using terms that 90% of the readership will not
understand. I accept that most units I see will be non-metric (it frustrates
me, but I accept it). I accept that I will constantly hear mysterious terms
and read of products and ingredients that I can only dream about. The main
problem is that occasionally we will also inadvertently use terms that, as
illustrated by AJ's spew (double meaning intended), we do not realise are
uniquely ours. Clarification may then be needed, but lets not get carried
away by it.

The more international and more diverse the digest the better, but lets at
least attempt to keep it civil. I for one hope that the recent spate of
bombastic, brash, rude Aussie (and other) posts soon dries up. Lets get on
with brewin' and bullshittin', but not by posting with our brains in neutral
and our manners in the sewer.

Cheers,
Steve Lacey


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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:52:36 +0900
From: "George Matsuo" <joji at sankyo-seisakusho.co.jp>
Subject: re: Diabetic beer

Well, I am a type 1 diabetic and I have found this discussion to be very
informative.

I became diabetic 8 years ago. Started homebrewing shortly thereafter. I
brew beer not so much for health reasons, more because its fun and
absolutely delicious.

I have yet to experience any serious hypoglyceamic attacks from too much
alcohol but I do know that it is virtually impossible to counter unmoderated
reckless alcohol consumption with insulin. You either undershoot or
overshoot. Most likely, overshoot, then find a serious hypo in the morning.

My regime is 12R 15R 15R and 17N (before meals and bedtime). The evening
regime is supplemented by a regular *dosage* of two 650 ml bottles of
homebrew.

There have been numerous reports in Japan that type 2 diabetics can benefit
greatly from beer. I avoid making or condoning such claims. I believe both
types can do themselves a favor by just not overdoing it. That goes for
alcohol consumption and insulin treatment. Insulin is clearly not treatment,
its life sustaining.

I do believe that the stress involved in "staying away" from goodies and
favorites (which is invariably beer in my case) causes more damage than
relying on a regular regime, diet, and exercise. You could skimp on any
three and still come out ok. My doctors shake their head in disbelief but my
cholosteral levels are better than some non-diabetics.

For those interested, I have a *family* homepage with some info on homebrew,
diabetes, and recently yeast culturing. I am a beginner so don't go there
expecting an authoritive treatise on any of the subjects.
http://www.plaza.across.or.jp/~matsuo Also, sorry if you don't like family
homepages. At least there aren't any banners!

Any tips on how to make the yeast culturing part more informative are always
appreciated.

George



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:28:26 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Porky's Gypsum

Doc (aka Porky and Betty's love-child) was cogitating...
>>I am considering adding Gypsum after the mash (perhaps in the boil?
Perhaps at kegging?... sort of a "dry gypsuming"), to a brew made with
Bavarian lager malt, <<

Funny thing is, the ONLY way I have used gypsum is to add 1 to 2 teaspoons
into the boil. Have never gone down the pH measurin' and adjustin' path as
yet. Sydney tap water is exactly fifteen million times softer than that of
Plzn (or however you bloody-well spell it). Gypsum has a desirable effect
when making ales of just about any description, but I can't pretend to have
evaluated this  systematically. Just the dryness in the taste comes through.
A stout Gil brought to a club meeting recently was striking in this
character. Stouts or pale ales that I make with gypsum added to the boil are
better (smoother? maltier?), in my opinion, than those without (I only make
the latter type when I forget to chuck the gypsum in - about every second
brew due to my debilitating, yet endearing, dopeyness).

Hope my single qualitative opinion (could hardly call it a data point)
helps.

Steve Lacey




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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:03:33 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Land O Plenty

Glen Pannicke said, "But I think the hallmark of a great beer, and more
importantly great brewer, is complexity of flavor with a simple recipe."

I tend to agree. One of my greatest brewing years was the year before I got
married. To end up with lots of beer that our guests would enjoy, I brewed
the same Pilsner Urquell clone 8 times. The only ingredients were Caledon
lager malt; Saaz hops; water; citric acid and a mystery lager yeast.

Instead of the brews becoming boring, I found experimenting with different
mash schedules; hop schedules; fermentation temperatures; etc a fantastic
learning experience. The impact of process on the finished beer was far
greater than I had expected.

Also, not using the speciality malts has the advantage that you can detect
problems a lot more clearly.

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 02:24:26 -0700
From: Seog Lee <seoglee at pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Bob Shotola (hot side aeration)

Hot side aeration can be a problem, with color pickup, oxidation, etc.  But
it is not something you should concern yourself with greatly.  It is not the
main cause of oxidation in beer.  Introduction of oxygen post fermentation
is.  Splashing during racking, poorly filled bottles, etc.

>1) In the interest of least oxidation of mash, should I stir it very little
>during the step process?

Stir without splashing, but you need to stir enough to allow proper heat
distribution.  Otherwise, you will under utilize your grain bill.
Destroying enzymes in some areas while not getting proper conversion in
others.

>2) How does one transfer the mash to the lauter tun from mash tun so as to
>also not oxidize?

Don't splash.  Use a run-off from the lauter that goes to the bottom of the
mash tun.

>3) I could either try to step mash in my new 10 gal. brewpot, or just
>infusion mash in the plastic lauter bucket, saving the transfer and
possible
>aeration.  I am making a lager. Will there be a big difference?

It makes a difference.  If I were you, I would do a simple infusion the
first couple of times, then move up to step.  You may even want to go with
an ale recipe at first.



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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:34:58 +1000
From: "Grant Stott" <gstott at primus.com.au>
Subject: Ayinger yeast, Belgian ales

A question for those with experience with Ayinger yeast. Did you find it
produced large amounts of hydrogen sulphide? Admittedly I mistreated the
sample Phil was kind enough to send rather badly, and the starter I made was
at room temperature (it is winter over here), but in my limited experience
of brewing lagers the amount of sulphur produced was excessive. The rotten
egg smell has continued thru the 2 weeks of fermentation ( 6-10degC ) though
at a diminishing level.

Another unrelated question - How do you reproduce the hints of plum & raison
in Chimay Blue. My attempt at an all-grain trappist ale although coming 2nd
in the local club comp. simply doesnt come close.
 On a positive note I did have a jump in efficiency from a consistant 75% to
over 80% which I put down to the greater grain bed depth.
I was unable to use Belgian malts or Belgian candy sugar, but I did use
Wyeast Trappist ale yeast.
I would really like to know which ingredients or procedures really make a
difference & help turn a great tasting 10% ale into something a little
closer to the original.

Have a great vacation Pat & don't forget to come back

Grant & Yvonne Stott
Geelong Vic. Australia

Happiness is a full fermenter.



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:47:41 -0400
From: "Jim Verlinde" <beans at voyager.net>
Subject: Complexity and grain bills

Glen A. Pannicke writes about long grain bills and their contribution(?) to
better beer. Many times I have wondered what is meant when a beer is judged
as "complex" and what contributes to this characteristic. Would a long grain
bill, variety of hop additions, or some specific brewing techniques
transform a beer from an average, Plain-Jane brew into something complex and
therefore wonderful? Or, on the other hand, can a beer brewed with a simple
recipe be considered "complex"?
Hmmmmmm.......

Jim Verlinde
Prime Time Brewers
Grand Rapids, MI

Pat......As a long time HBD lurker, I can assure you that 99% of us
appreciate your efforts and your opinions. Please hang in there!





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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:52:21 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Etching beer glasses

All this talk of accidental glass etching with bleach 
reminds me of something Jeff Renner mentioned last month.  
There is a patented beer mug that has a circle etched on 
the bottom to provide nucleation sites to create a better 
head.  Here are a few links describing the glass and its 
patent:

http://realbeer.com/library/archives/yankeebrew/9503/mirmug.html
http://www.southerndraft.com/sodraft/9604/MUG.html
http://www.uspto.gov (search for Pat. No. 4,322,008)
(The patent appears to have expired, so no worries about 
infringement)
If one were to try and make such a glass, how would one go 
about selectively and intentionally etching a small circle 
in the bottom of the glass?

Regards,
Tidmarsh Mellsaps . . . I mean Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:03:59 GMT
From: "Richard Scotty" <rscotty2 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bill's Paranoia

Bill Wible writes:

*********************
I'm glad you mentioned this, John, because alot of people don't
realize how close Prohibition really still is.  I have personally been
bothered for some time by the overwhelming display of outright
religiousness from the people in politics.  It seems everyone making
our laws today is a member of some religious group, and all are
making moves on our freedoms, from the continual and still ongoing
onslaught against tobacco, to backing down the legal DUI blood alcohol
to .08 througout the US, using highway tax dollars, etc.  (Check the
current stories on RealBeer.com) I don't care to have my laws made
based on somebody else's religious beliefs.***
*********************

OK, I wasn't going to jump into this mess, but Bill rasies some issues that 
demand response.  First of all, I seriously doubt that neo-prohibitionists 
will be successful.  There are still far too many people that have living 
memories of the previous failed attempt.  The bottom line is that you can't 
legislate morality no matter how hard you try.  Besides that, if prohibition 
were re-enacted, bootlegging, rum running and speakeasies would return to 
fashion and the government derives no tax revenues from these enterprises.  
The government *likes* tax revenue ;-{>

Bill, as a Christian, I take offense at being lumped into some fuzzy 
category that lives in your mind.  While there are certainly some religious 
denominations that prohibit alcohol, there are many more that do not.  We 
are not all members of the "religious right", whatever that means and I 
don't think that you can blame general religiosity for every legislative 
move you disagree with.  It has been my experience that categorical 
generalizations are a mistake (generally speaking) and that one should avoid 
them whenever possible.  It took many years to gain this bit of wisdom.

It may surprise you that I'm not the only Christian brewer on this digest - 
there are *many* others.

Back into lurk mode,

Richard Scotty
Christian, Brewer, and Head Yeast Wrangler
The Crapshoot Brewery
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:20:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: New career potential!


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Richard Scotty writes...

> Besides that, if prohibition were re-enacted, bootlegging, rum running
> and speakeasies would return to fashion 

Cool! A new career as a bootlegger! 

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:36:13 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS

Now that the bloomin' Good Dr. has visited Jolly Ole England and 
reacquainted 'iself wiv real ale, he is wantin' ter duplicate the taste. 
 Doc, I'ave always thought that bloody gyprock (sheet rock to you Yanks), 
should be added ter Bavarian Larger Malt.  Add the gyprock just prior ter 
pitchin', right? (pitchin' it out the back door). We British 'ave been 
makin' us ales wiv us home grown malts and 'ops for centuries.  Blimey Doc, 
why do yer want ter "spurment" wiv perfection?  Besides if yer find a way 
ter duplicate the tast wivout the bloody expensive Marris Outter, we might 
loose some revenue.

New forecast for this weekend:  100 + degrees to continue.  Fall brewing 
 still a long ways off in West Texas.

Jim Mellsap
>From Birmingham



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:34:11 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Drunks and prohibition

I figured it was about time for the "drunken homebrewer thread to die an
ignoble death - but no!

Bill wrote:

"I personally feel it will only be a matter of time before homebrewing
is once again illegal in the US, and for that matter, I believe the US
will have prohibition again within 5 -10 years.  There have already been
moves in that direction."

Bill, while I agree with you about the need to mend the fence between State
and Church I don't see any strong evidence for a movement towards
prohibition in our future.  Instead, what I do see are people who seem to be
overly paranoid about this idea. If you truly believe we'll see prohibition
again in 5 - 10 years I'd be happy to wager some money against it!

 -Alan




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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 11:03:12 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: What is a SWMBO anyway?

Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com> wrote:
>Oh, jeez, it means She Who Must Be Obeyed.   Now stop asking. :)

I think it is original to the wonderful Rumpole books by John Mortimer.
It's what Rumpole calls Mrs. R. (but not to her face!).  Horace (no one
every calls him that, even SWMBO calls him Rumpole) Rumpole is an old,
irrascable, curmudgeonly, English defense lawyer who nearly always gets his
client acquitted.  The books are written in first person narrative and are
hilarious.  They're even better on Books on Tape.  We always get some from
the library for long trips.  The reader has a wonderful English voice.
Some time back there was also an English TV series on PBS's "Mystery"
called "Rumpole for the Defense," I think, with Leo McKern doing a perfect
portrayal.

Some other Rumpolisms:

"As for me, I'm not sure that I like cast iron alibis. They're the sort
that sink quickest, to the bottom of the sea."

"A bit of delay, I have found it an infallible rule, never does any harm to
the defense."

"It's no help to the defense in an obscenity case to have anyone actually
read the works in question."

BTW, he is known to occasionally drink beer, although usually it's cheap
claret at his local wine bar, and more than SWMBO thinks is good for him.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:08:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: the decoction momily...

Sweeney, David writes:
>I personally think that the perception of decoction mashing adding to
>the quality of the beer is based on people's natural tendency to think
>that "old means quality."  As Dr. Lewis points out, he has data to
>indicate that decoction mashing is really a "momily."

   Sure, and Dr. Peeve-o once "proved" that skunking of beer
doesn't happen, in spite of the fact that many (most?) of us
have encountered it firsthand, and I can skunk some beer for
you almost instantly in my back yard. [*]
   I recently heard in another forum that Lewis' "proof" that
decoction has no effect was based on a (single?) experiment that
in no way ran through a full decoction, and so perhaps didn't
truly test the premise of the experiment.  I don't know if that's
true, but I've seen enough of Lewis' writings to be of the opinion
he is more concerned with industrial efficiency than with flavor.
In the case of decoction, I'd trust my taste buds, or the opinions
of experienced practicioners (Jim Busch, for example).
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Brewin' and stewin' in East-central Illinois

[*] It's too late to get propagated in time, or I'd offer to
run a skunking demo at the Great Taste of the Midwest tomorrow.
Kalamazoo/Bell's Two Hearted Ale would skunk nicely in the
Wisconsin sun!



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:23:33 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: Malt bills and tasting techniques

Glen Pannicke indicates his views on malt bills by saying:

> Sure.  Some great beers have been made with grain bills as
> long as your arm
> and their flavors may not be achievable any other way.  But I
> think the
> hallmark of a great beer, and more importantly great brewer,
> is complexity
> of flavor with a simple recipe.  Just an opinion to spark
> some discussion...

I totally agree and from reading Daniels, it appears so do a lot of
commercial brewers. I found it interesting that in the styles where he was
able to get some good malt bill information from the commercial brewers
(including some pretty classic breweries), there seemed to be an
overwhelming preference for a simple malt bill compared to the NHC entries
examined (as an aside, I'm not convinced of the accuracy of the malt bills
submitted to competitions but that is another topic for another discussion).

I would take this one step further and say that I think crystal (or caramel)
malts or overused, ar at least, used unnecessarily. While they are a boon
for extract brewers, I feel that their use in all-grain brewing is sometimes
a bit of a cheat. Not always, mind you, I don't want to make sweeping
generalizations. But I think there are other ways of achieving their effects
on the beer by mashing and boiling techniques, and perhaps even yeast
selection.

Stephen Ross talks about techniques for detecting particular
characteristics:

> We've found that by putting massive amounts of the desired
> flavour in a
> plain beer background (we use Coors Light) it makes it easier
> to detect
> smaller amounts in real beers.
>
This is fine for an initial familiarization with the flavour or aroma, but I
think proper training in this area has to go a step further. I believe you
must practice with samples that exhibit the quality at low levels, and in
samples which exhibit multiple characteristics. First of all, the
"in-your-face" examples don't address the issue of individual threshold
sensitivity. Being able to taste Molly McButter does not mean you will be
able to pick diacetyl out of a pilsner. By getting a group of people
together and critically tasting samples where the characteristic is muted or
concealed by other flavours or aromas, you develop your accuity, and you
learn what things you may and may not be able to identify. It is important
for a brewer to know where his evaluation strengths and weaknesses lie,
especially if they are going to become involved in judging. The trick here
is to have people in the group who are skilled tasters, and can find
appropriate samples for leading the rest through in developing their skills.
You don't want to get into a situation where you have the "blind leading the
blind", where you are merely passing along your own misconceptions or
misperceptions. My winemaking club, I believe, has been doing just this for
a long time, and now it appears we are going to pay a high price for it. We
have essentially been told that Manitoba will not host the national
competition again until our judging skills improve. This is a mistake I'm
intent on avoiding with the new homebrew club I'm starting.

Brian



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: Bacteria that survive autoclaving?


	In a previous Homebrew Digest, the happy folks at Paddock Wood write:

> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:51:52 -0600
> From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
> Subject: diacetyl flavour for spiking beer
> 
> The pediococcus you DON'T want in your brew system. I think Wyeast's may be
> a different strain, but some Pedio can survive autoclaving!

	Do you have a reference for that?  To the best of my knowledge,
there are no bacteria or bacterial forms (spores, etc.) that can survive a
properly functioning autoclave (20-30 minutes at 121 degrees C and 15
atmospheres of pressure).  That kind of heat is more than any known
thermophile can handle, and almost all of the thermophiles can't tolerate
oxygen (or 1 atm of pressure).  If anything could survive, and I don't
think it could, I'd expect it to be some gram-positive spore former or
maybe Deinococcus, and neither of those are really common beer
contaminants. 

	One thing that might allow survival was if there was a bunch of 
gunk that might shield the bacteria from heat and pressure, but it'd have 
to be some pretty serious gunk to hold up for 20 minutes.  Autoclaves are 
pretty effective :)

	Jesse

- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Prohibition

Bill wrote

I personally feel it will only be a matter of time
before homebrewing is once again illegal in the US,
and for that matter, I believe the US will have
prohibition again within 5 -10 years. There have
already been moves in that direction.

Bill, I hope your wrong, but I also can see the moves
in that direction. It all stems from a drift in this
country toward a lack of personal accountability. We
blame the tobacco companies because we're too weak to
quit smoking. We want to sue the gun manufacturers
because we keep killing people. I'm sure the brewers
and distillers are next. I don't know if you've ever
read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, but this country
could use someone like John Galt.



=====


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/


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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:07:44 -0500
From: "Cloutier, Steve" <Steve_Cloutier at ATK.COM>
Subject: The R word

Hello homebrewers, and peace be with you.

Seems the digest is goin' through another of those acrimonious periods. Just
like any other group, this "cyber family"  is bound to butt heads once in a
while. I'm no shrink, but seems like a good knock-down, drag-out once in a
while is probably a healthy thing. 

On the subject of prohibition, Bill Wible (rhymes with Bible??) responds to
John Palmer:
 
>I'm glad you mentioned this, John, because alot of people don't
>realize how close Prohibition really still is.  I have personally been
>bothered for some time by the overwhelming display of outright
>religiousness from the people in politics.  It seems everyone making
>our laws today is a member of some religious group, and all are
>making moves on our freedoms, from the continual and still ongoing
>onslaught against tobacco, to backing down the legal DUI blood alcohol
>to .08 througout the US, using highway tax dollars, etc.  (Check the
>current stories on RealBeer.com) I don't care to have my laws made
>based on somebody else's religious beliefs.

>I personally feel it will only be a matter of time before homebrewing
>is once again illegal in the US, and for that matter, I believe the US
>will have prohibition again within 5 -10 years.  There have already been
>moves in that direction.

>To me, its very disturbing to hear our presidential candidates talking
>about all this righteous BS, and even more disturbing to hear the
>candidates praying together on a phone call.  Isn't there supposed
>to be a separation of Church and State?  Apparently not today.
>It doesn't seem to matter who you vote for, because both candidates
>appear to be exactly the same.

>So I think it would be wise for all homebrewers, especially the
>raucous drunks, to keep a low profile for awhile, or the privilege
>will be gone before long.

Bill, you really should pay more attention to who's actually stomping on
your rights. Your bias against religion is blinding you to reality. 

It's the left wing, big government, nanny-state types who are pushing the
anti-tobacco lawsuits, the lower NATIONAL blood alcohol limits, alcohol as a
dangerous drug propaganda and unconstitutional gun control laws. Sue
successful companies, and accuse them of anything you want. Tax everything
that moves to fund new social programs. Pass more and more laws. Eliminate
and deny personal responsibility. Incrementally remove individual freedoms.
This is all about power and control. Call it collectivism, social
engineering and abuse of political power, not religion. You're right about
prohibition being close, but wake up to who your real enemy is.

Many of the Germans and other Europeans that brought much of the brewing
expertise to this country were devoutly religious and religiously
individual. Beer variety as we know it,  wouldn't exist without the
historical influence of the various religions, and the independent
entrepreneurial spirit of the brewers. Yes, the U.S. prohibition took on a
religious connotation, but look closer and you will see a far more sinister,
irreligious underlying political agenda.

Today, religions in the U.S. are all over the map on this issue, though many
are at least tolerant and even encouraging of alcohol in moderation. I will
grant you that most religions frown on the every day falling down drunk,
much for the reasons Pat earlier so eloquently described.  I think that is
probably a reasonable and defensible position for anyone who is not
fanatical in their fear and loathing of someone else's religious belief.
 
By the way, some members of my church -Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility-
brewed up a couple of batches for the church festival last fall. It was a
big hit. The padre wants in on the next brew.

Dang, I really wanted to fit a Sooky La La in here somewhere...

Steve Cloutier

Just south of Lake Wobegon
Minnesota - 10,000 lakes and one big chump for a Gov



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:31:34 EDT
From: GarthFanY2k at cs.com
Subject: Beer & Airplanes

Does anyone know what the regulations are regarding carrying beer on an 
airplane?
I would like to take my latest creation home with me at the end of this month 
but am wondering if it can be checked as luggage?  Thanks in advance!!!

Rick


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:30:00 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cardmom

Salutations all!

Are there any Belgophilic Spicoholics out there well versed in the use of 
Cardmom??

I was just after some help... I just purchased a pack of Cardmom Pods from 
my local Asian spice shop, I was thinking of using some in a Belgian Strong 
Ale O.G. 1095.

How much is a safe limit per 5 gallons and is this stuff pleasant or not 
advisable??

I was goanna use some in conjunction with some corriander and ginger.

Any suggestions would be good as I'm in two minds about this stuff (smells a 
little too pungent for my liking!)

Cheers!
Warren L. White, Melbourne Australia
Too far and too wet to walk to Brussels!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:35:32 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: back to beer:- No Subject(all-grain)

Bob Shotola  says ...

>I am about to graduate from extract to mashing and could use a couple of
>pointers. Please forgive me if these questions have been recently asked:
>
>1) In the interest of least oxidation of mash, should I stir it very little
>during the step process?

Don't obsess about oxidation.  It can cause courser flavors, darker wort and
the eventual (months later) downfall of your beer, but for first all-grain
mashes  your attention should be *riveted* on your mash thermometer, and on
your sparge [clearest wort, low flow, decent extraction].

You must stir, not splash, to equalize temps.  Use a lid, and for extremists
cover the mash w/ a blanket of CO2 or nitrogen.  Also you'll get uniform
mash temps more easily  in a thinner mash (1.5 qt/lb and above), but
over-temps  will be more damaging to enzymes.  Since beginners often
overshoot temps you might consider a thicker mash (~1.25qt/lb) and more
stirring.  Low oxidation won't help if your mash conversion fails..

>2) How does one transfer the mash to the lauter tun from mash tun so as to
>also not oxidize?

' nearly impossible.  I think the best solution is a combined mash/lauter
tun.  No transfer.

>3) I could either try to step mash in my new 10 gal. brewpot, or just
>infusion mash in the plastic lauter bucket, saving the transfer and
possible
>aeration.  I am making a lager. Will there be a big difference?

I'd suggest simpler single infusion ales for all-grain beginners.  Hitting
mash temps, and performing a good sparge require experience w/ your hardware
so it won't happen the first time..  It's unwise to use more difficult mash
procedures until you *know* whether you will be getting 13 or 33pgpp from
your sparge, and before you can predict the fermentability of your wort.
Till then multistep programs gives you additional chances to screw up.

I prefer the control that a  multi-step mash gives, but many malts/styles do
just as well with a single infusion.   IMO modern lager malts benefit more
from a step mash than PA malts (re haze).  Also pils in particular will show
the darker color of oxidation more.

One more pointer - assist an experienced all-grainer on a brew, or get one
to assist you the first time, and take notes on the sparge.  Most 1st timers
get poor extraction but improve dramatically w/ a little experience.

 -S




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