---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Ginger Ale... (bobbrews) Johnson" <robert at bobbrews.com>
  I am myself ("patrick finerty jr.")
  Re: Beer spiking samples (phil sides jr)
  No Subject (BShotola)
  re: Diabetic beer ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re:What is a SWMBO anyway? and bleach redux (Jim Adwell)
  re: Homebrewers vs Drunks (Bill Wible)
  Castlemaine xxxx Beer, dextrin malts ("Graham Sanders")
  re:  Bleach (Matthew Comstock)
  Yes, Actually it is ("A. J.")
  Strine ("A. J.")
  long trip & beer-related stops (Aaron Robert Lyon)
  here we go again... (Marc Sedam)
  glass etching (jim liddil)
  mistaken identities and sulfate as a flavour enhancer ("Dr. Pivo")
  spellun' ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Another Sooky, Sooky La La (Israel Christie)
  Re: rugby (Kim Hansen)
  Janitors, licenses and the Land O Plenty ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  I stand corrected (Joseph Gibbens)
  SWMBO (Lou.Heavner)
  Bye (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Essentially versus is (Dave Burley)
  An Article I Think You'll Find Interesting (netidjit)
  diacetyl flavour for spiking beer ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Blenheim Ginger Ale (happydog)
  re: the decoction momily... ("Sweeney, David")
  A response to Dave Harsh and an apology to Pat ("Brian Lundeen")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 21:25:27 -0700
From: "Robert (bobbrews) Johnson" <robert at bobbrews.com>
Subject: Ginger Ale...

I love Blenheim's, I have about 2 to 3 of these a day, I am surpised you
can't get these as we get them all the time in So-Calif. and it's a east
coast soda... Love that burn... But now and then a Vernors for that
smooth oak character. I am working on a vernors recipe now including oak
aging then the Blenheim's clone is next... Anyone else in the brew world
working on homebrewed Ginger beer/Ale?

Robert



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:55:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: I am myself

i had a great post following up to this drunken, pot-smoking, mother
raping, father raping, AND, creating a public nuisance while literin'
group w bench scene thread item. unfortunately, i became completely
bored writing it while also trying to tie in St. Augustine and the
effect of his perverse sexual views on the modern world.

will you people please stop being sooo boring? 


Ob: Beer. i like my new BEER, a raspberry wheat ale. LD Carslon rules.


ciao,
 -pjf, my old signoff from t.b. as it is definitely apropos






		     extra space - do not delete






- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		      http://www.finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:34:43 -0400
From: phil sides jr <phil at yankeebrew.com>
Subject: Re: Beer spiking samples

"pksmith_morin" <pksmith_morin at email.msn.com> asks:

>Anyone know of a cheap source of beer spiking samples (acetaldehyde,
diacetyl,
>dms, etc.) and pure strains of pedio- and lacto-?  I am interested in
framing
>a sensory evaluation panel, and once read of such a company in one of
the
>trades, but have since lost track.  Any help would be appreciated.

>Paul Smith

Paul,
This will get you started:

Guidelines for Doctoring Beers

Flavor: Adulterant, Quantity.

Sour/Acidic: USP lactic acid, 0.4 ml (1/3 tsp. of solution of 1/8 tsp.
lactic acid plus 3/8 tsp. distilled water).
Sour/Acidic: White wine vinegar, 3/4 tsp.
Bitterness: iso-hop extract, 1 or 2 drops, to taste.
Sweetness: sucrose (table sugar), 1/4 tsp. dissolved in 1/2 tsp water.
Astringency: Grape tannin, 2 tsp. of solution of 1/8 tsp. tannin
dissolved in 5 tbs. water.
Phenolic: Chloroseptic, 0.4 ml (1/3. tsp of solution of 1/8 tsp.
Chloroseptic plus 3/8 tsp. distilled water).
Clovelike: Clove solution, make solution of 8 cloves soaked in 3 oz. of
beer and add liquid to taste (about 4 tsp).
Sulfitic: Potassium metabisulfite, make solution of one tablet dissolved
in 3 oz. of beer and add to taste (about 1/2 tsp.). This should not be
consumed by persons with asthma or sulfite allergies.
Alcoholic: Ethanol, 2 tsp. (increases alcohol by 2.7%). 3 tsp. vodka may
also be used.
Sherry-like: Dry sherry, 3/4 tsp.
Nutty: Almond extract, 0.1 ml (1/8 tsp of solution consisting of 1/8
tsp. almond extract plus 5/8 tsp. distilled water).
Papery/Stale: N/A, Open bottles to air, reseal, and keep at 100 F or
warmer for several days.
Winey: White wine, 2 tbs.
Diacetyl: Butter extract, 4-5 drops.
Estery: Banana extract, 6-7 drops.
Lightstruck: N/A, expose commercial beer in green bottles to sunlight
for 1-3 days.

This is available at the BJCP website at
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/study98.html#drbeer

All of this stuff is readily available between the homebrew shop and
grocery store.  I have used these five or six times with pretty decent
success for most samples.  I suggest using this as a baseline and make
adjustments to your liking (keep notes of course).  It is also somewhat
dependent on the base beer.  I have used Bud Light with reasonably
consistent results.  If you come up with good concoctions for the more
exotic ones (acetaldehyde, pedio, etc.) I would like to hear about them.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Make Wort, Not War...




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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 05:03:59 EDT
From: BShotola at aol.com
Subject: No Subject

I am about to graduate from extract to mashing and could use a couple of 
pointers. Please forgive me if these questions have been recently asked:

1) In the interest of least oxidation of mash, should I stir it very little 
during the step process?

2) How does one transfer the mash to the lauter tun from mash tun so as to 
also not oxidize?

3) I could either try to step mash in my new 10 gal. brewpot, or just 
infusion mash in the plastic lauter bucket, saving the transfer and possible 
aeration.  I am making a lager. Will there be a big difference?

Thanks!

Bob Shotola 
Yamhill, Oregon


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 07:18:46 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Diabetic beer

John Pietrzak writes ...

>Unbelievable!  The HBD contains more info than I'll ever need - from
>weighing farts to speaking Aussie - but not a single mention of  Diabetic
>Beer.  If y'all think there is no such thing - think again.

If you think it hasn't been covered in HBD - you haven't searched
the archives.

Kunze mentions diabetic beer.  The idea behind these is based on the old
misguided notion the diabetics shouldn't consume carbohydrates.  The truth
is that the carbs in beer can be accounted for in terms of insulin and diet
in
exactly the same way as bread and potatoes.  There are two basic problems
with diabetics drinking beer.  First it is impossible to guess the amount
and
glycemic index of the true carbs in beer - varies a lot.  Second, the
alcohol is
not so great for anyone but especially diabetics.  One short term impact of
the alcohol can be to bollux up the normal release of carbs into the blood
and
cause low blood sugar levels.

Any highly attenuated beer should be within range for a diabetic - tho
they'll
have to guess about the amount of residual dextrins.  'Diabetes Forecast'
mag suggests treating the alcohol calories as tho' they were fat calories,
*BUT* to  be cautious about alcohol induced low blood sugar both immediately
(esp on an empty stomach) and for up to 12 hours after.  The alcohol per se
can't be recommended - so moderation ... .

 -S





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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:32:25 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Re:What is a SWMBO anyway? and bleach redux


Oh, jeez, it means She Who Must Be Obeyed.   Now stop asking. :)

Bleach is NOT Sodium Hydroxide!  It is made *with* sodium hydroxide, but it
is NOT *composed of* sodium hydroxide.  Big difference.  Here's some links
about sodium hypochlorite:

Concerning bleach and its bactericidal properties:
http://www.ace.orst.edu/info/nain/chemical/naoclmed.htm

One of many Material Safety Data Sheets on the web:
http://www.orion.net.au/hyp_msds.htm

A rather self-serving but useful article from Colgate-Palmolive Canada:
http://www.esemag.com/0596/bleach.html

and there are a lot more.

Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:40:13 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: re: Homebrewers vs Drunks

>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:08:39 -0700
>From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
>Subject: I am ashamed of myself
<snip>
>So, if Pat takes the time to voice an opinion, that the goal of
>homebrewing is not the pursuit soley of inebriation, and cautions
>everyone to avoid letting that stereotype continue, because here in
>the United States we are still struggling to throw off the chains of
>Prohibition and still pursueing the legality of home brewing in
>several states, and you don't wholeheartedly agree with that, then
>take it offline!

I'm glad you mentioned this, John, because alot of people don't
realize how close Prohibition really still is.  I have personally been
bothered for some time by the overwhelming display of outright
religiousness from the people in politics.  It seems everyone making
our laws today is a member of some religious group, and all are
making moves on our freedoms, from the continual and still ongoing
onslaught against tobacco, to backing down the legal DUI blood alcohol
to .08 througout the US, using highway tax dollars, etc.  (Check the
current stories on RealBeer.com) I don't care to have my laws made
based on somebody else's religious beliefs.

I personally feel it will only be a matter of time before homebrewing
is once again illegal in the US, and for that matter, I believe the US
will have prohibition again within 5 -10 years.  There have already been
moves in that direction.

To me, its very disturbing to hear our presidential candidates talking
about all this righteous BS, and even more disturbing to hear the
candidates praying together on a phone call.  Isn't there supposed
to be a separation of Church and State?  Apparently not today.
It doesn't seem to matter who you vote for, because both candidates
appear to be exactly the same.

So I think it would be wise for all homebrewers, especially the
raucous drunks, to keep a low profile for awhile, or the privilege
will be gone before long.

Bill



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:35:01 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Castlemaine xxxx Beer, dextrin malts

G'day all

Well it had to be asked by some poor taste impared bastard didn't it

From: Fxtrotr2 at aol.com
Subject: root beer recipe

>also would like to have a mix for duplicating Castlemain Austrailian beer
that we can do in our home micro.<

Now us in Castlemaine territory assume your after XXXX bitter ale (which
ain't an Ale but a lager in fact).  It is infact brewed like all the other
regular mega-breweries, you know, one weeks fermentation, two weeks
lagering, throw in some chemists to hold it all together.

But If your keen I believe (note this is not certain but bloody close), you
run on a similar thread to the Fosters receipes with some noticeable
differences.  The malt used is called schnooner malt, but for most people
use ordinary well modified two row pale malt. From memory mash temp is a
single infusion at 65c. Adjuct is white sugar cane sugar (again testing the
far reaches) about 35 %.

Now last time I checked xxxx still use real hops (CUB chemical beer hasn't
reached this far yet).  Pride of Ringwood for bittering and (he's the
secret) a hop called Golden Cluster for flavour.  There is no aroma hop.
These are at low levels of course.  Dont know the IBU's (never wanted to
actually), but at a guess target 15.  Of course good neutral lager yeast
under normal lager temps.

Interesting fact about this schnooner malt.  If I compare two beers made,
one with imported pilsner or pale malt, and one with the local mega-brewery
malt, do everything the same, i find the mega-brewery malt (schnooner) beer
to have more body  than imported malt beers.  Another way of puting it.  I
could never get schnooner malt in a German Pilsner receipe to be as well
attenuated and dry as it should be til I bought imported malts. Now this
could well be a perception on my part, but question to the knowledgables out
there.

Is it possible that the malting houses actually produce a more dextrinous
malt specifically for the big boys to compensate the high use of sugars,
(which we craftbrewers pay the price for) or

 should I just shut up and go back to more non beer related posts  (oh I
couldn't help that line slipping in) perhaps i need a drink, no I get pissed
then, oh crap...... its getting you can't even up-chuck without someone
looking over my shoulder......no thats not allowed......................
hmmmmmmmm  off to the sake digest while its still a virgin in these matters.

Shout

Graham Sanders

oh

From: "John Pietrzak" <lynel at globalfreeway.com.au>
Folks up north are a few years behind the rest of the world I think.

>My brewing technique is as simple as1234.
1. Buy can of Coopers concentrate  (preferably Old Dark Ale)- about $10
2. Add water (rain water collected from the roof works great as long as
there aint no dead rats or or too many leaves and shit in your gutters)
yeast and leave till ready.  I never add sugar - I prefer lite beer.
Occasionally I add honey or liquorice for flavour.
3. Bottle, cap, leave to mature, and then .......my favourite part:-
4. Drink.<

When i hear then see things like this above, thank god we suceeded long ago.
For some reason, I'm thankful where behind the times.  I would hate to get
to this advanced and modern stage of brewing and living. For some reason, I
prefer the old fashion way of knocking up a brew.  But yeh, us country
bumbkins are soooo behind those more advanced gods that live south of the
border.  The funny thing is, the further south you go the more advanced they
seem to be. (and as they become more godlike, the less they can find fault
in themselves.)

Ah - Ignorance is bliss





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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 05:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  Bleach

Liquid bleach is an an alkaline (pH>>11, lye,
sodium hydroxide, base) solution
of around 5% sodium hypochlorite, NaOCL.

Stong bases etch glass.  In general chemistry
courses, you learn this if you try to store your
standard base solution in a volumetric flask with
the ground glass stopper in place.  The solution
etches the stopper and you can't remove it.

Base baths are useful to clean dirty glassware in
chemistry labs.  The base etches a layer of glass
off the surface of a flask and takes any dirt
with
it.

These things aside.  Soaking your bottles or
carboys in bleach solution is not a big deal in
my experience.  Generally, you aren't using a
real high concentration of the basic solution. 
I've not taken the time to calculate the
concentrations I use, but my measure is a quick
bump of the bleach bottle per gallon.  A bump
could be anywhere from a tablespoon to a quarter
cup as far as I can tell.  Life is too short to
be picky about measuring bleach.

I store my carboys and my bottles full of this
diluted bleach solution covered with squares of
tin foil.  This makes bottling easier, as you
don't have to collect your bottles and soak them
prior to bottling.  You just have to drain the
bleach and rinse.

I have not noticed anything I would call an
etching problem.  

One thing I have noticed is the precipitation of
some salts when I use a high concentration of
bleach.  Base will precipitate metal salts as
metal hydroxides/carbonates, etc.  So
sometimes I see crystals adhered to the side of
my bottles or carboys.  This precipitate is hard
to rinse out, but truly I haven't really tried. 
A strong acid rinse would probably take care of
it.  The precipitate does not affect the beer as
far as I can tell.

There are all kinds of sanitizers people might
suggest in place of bleach.  But, bleach is cheap
and it works great.  

Matt



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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 13:05:31 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Yes, Actually it is

Bleach is (or was) traditionally made by bubbling chlorine gas through a
lye solution. Often this lye solution was that found at the cathode of a
salt solution undergoing electrolysis with the chlorine coming from the
anode i.e. bleach can be made from nothing but salt (sodium chloride),
water and electricity and some modern pool chlorinators work this way.
Whether it's made this way or not, there is lots of lye in bleach as
hypochlorite is stable at high pH (though it actually works better at
low). Thus Dave is, in essence, correct. Where he bobbled a little is
the 5% remark. Commercial bleach is usually around 5 "trade percent"
where that number refers to a value obtained from a thiosulfate
titration and, if I recall correctly, relates to amount of equivalent
available chlorine.



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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 13:09:02 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Strine

I find it hard to believe that the lexicon of basic Strine which has
been paraded past us appears to have omitted the widely uses "spew" (or
did I miss it?). To put it in context.... never mind.



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: long trip & beer-related stops

In a little over a week some friends of mine and I will be experiencing
our interpretation of the Great American Road Trip.  This is going to take
us from our departure point near Lansing, Michigan westward (making sure
to stop in Rocky Mountain National Park, CO) with our final destination
being the Rogue brewery in Newport Oregon.  We have from August 21st to
Sept 1st (the day before the first University of Michigan football game)
to make the journey and I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for
some not-to-be-missed beer-related stops along our general route?  Any
suggestions are appreciated.  Post them or feel free to e-mail me
privately.  Thanks.

 -Aaron



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:43:43 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: here we go again...

I find the whole homebrewer = drunk argument pretty funny.
No, really.  Actually humorous.  If Dave and anyone else
wants to get fall down stupid drunk daily (which he
doesn't), let him.  The lads down there have mostly the same
rights as we do in America (notwithstanding the remaining
fascination with the Queen Mum)--do what you wish.  The net
result of daily drunkenness is well documented.  Chances are
you'll fail to be productive...but some people can still be
productive with the downside being poor long-term health.
And I *know* the cost of alcoholism on society so let's just
not go there...

Recall this started by some innocuous statement about a
homebrewer who was described by his friend as "a bit of a
drunk", or something like that.  The statement wasn't "he's
a drunk like every homebrewer".  To discount the fact that a
homebrewer might BE a drunk is silly.  But it doesn't paint
the picture of ALL homebrewers being drunk.  There's a
famous mathematical trick (shown in the book "Fermat's Last
Theorum) where you can definitively prove that 2=1...so long
as you forget that you can't divide by zero.  This whole
thread, IMHO, is divisible by zero.  This can be proven
because it's going on for an infinite time.  ;-)

I understand the *point* of Pat's messages, but the delivery
comes from a set of values I just don't share.  Now, I know
that Dave got absolutely hammered on private email for his
"drunkenness" posts.  I'm sure Pat got blasted equally as
well from those who took his posts as a bit over the edge.
That's what happens when two people disagree, whether it's
in person or over the web.  People should be permitted to
disagree fundamentally with the heartfelt truths others
espouse.

98% of the Digest readers probably wished this topic would
die after the third message.  But Pat's position as Janitor
(possibly abdicated?) allowed him to continually respond to
the list well in advance of anyone else seeing the messages
and keep the fire hot.  And we all know ethanol is
flammable.  It now appears Pat has gone to cybersulk and
removed himself from the Janitor position and stopped the
spam filtering.  Good work Pat!  That's what the list
needs...crap coming online to drive more people off than the
OT posts ever would.  I understand that you're probably too
pissed off at the list for not rallying behind you.  And
maybe you just need a break and want a vacation from dealing
with the hassles of the HBD.  Cool by me...lord knows I
would.  But I hope the suspension of filtering/moderation is
completely unrelated to this thread.  I'm sure it is and
already apologize in advance for making the wrong
assumption.

If you look back at the HBD over the past six months I think
you'll see that everyone who subscribes (or views the
website each morning as I do) really appreciates what you do
and the crap you put up with.  Your appointment to the AHA
is a direct result of the list's appreciation.  Don't
compromise what you've reclaimed from the ashes of 1995.

The one positive we can all take from this is the use of the
word "sooky".  I love it!

Fair dinkums,
Marc



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:50:07 -0400
From: jim liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: glass etching

I posted this previously.  Also I got a whole chapter on glass etching from a 
company and bleach and naoh cause no significant dissolving of glass.

Jim Liddil
********************************
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:28:05 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: whining #1

>
> Karl Lutze wrote:
> Well, Jeff, it has been my experience with TSP that it will etch glass
> and ceramics. It says so on the box. Take a look at your box of TSP
> and see if it says this. It does depend on the concentration of TSP and
> length of contact, so you have been lucky up to this point. As for
> removal, I think you're stuck with an etched carboy. Sorry.
I have talked to Corning as well as a company that makes the etching
compounds 
used for glass. All the people I talked to indicated that etching glass 
(either soda lime or borosilicate) is difficult to do. Etching refers to a 
process where one selectively removes glass and causes it to become uneven in 
texture (the frosted look). Things like NaOH and TSP will not selectively 
dissolve glass. What is likely happening is that the TSP is cleaning the 
glass 
so well that the various scratches are now becoming visible or the TSP is not 
being rinsed completely along with various minerla deposits from the water. I 
did a sinlge test with a drinking glass (soda lime). I cleaned it with 
chromic 
acid and then added 2 tablespoons if analytical grade TSP to 50 mls of 
ultrapure water. I left it on the bench for 3 months covered with foil. I 
then let it evaporate and washed the glass. I saw no evidence of selective 
etching. Only one test of course.



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:56:30 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: mistaken identities and sulfate as a flavour enhancer

'Twere previously published:

> "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com> wrote
> >for
> >some reason Doc Pivo sounds like John Cleese in my mind (when he's being
> >proper or official)
> 
> Nah - wrong accent.  Think Max Von Sydow.
> 
> Jeff (Renner)

Now this is all very flattering, to be compared with famous
celebrities.... and is in fact true.

I quite often get compared to, and even misstaken for, some quite famous
film stars, both with regard to intonation and appearance..... I try and
take it all in stride, and not let it go to my head.

Yes, without trying to boast, quite often's the time, complete strangers
have approached me and remarked that I sound quite a bit like Betty
Boop, and look EXACTLY like Porky Pig.

And on to things less serious.:

On a recent "taste reference adjusting" trip to England, I became more
and more aware of the fact that the taste of Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum)
is not only often quite an apparent, but sometimes dominant flavour in
British Ales.  An example that really stood out was "Green King IPA"
where it entirely dominated the middle ground of flavour.

My intimate awareness of gypsum flavour comes from the fact that I have
drunken it... Yes, just as Phil Yates gnawed a hole through the gyprock
in his kitchen wall, trying to quickly duck into the house as he heard
the shout of his neighbor discovering his tailless cat, I have also
introduced this "salt" to my palate.

Having pondered this since my recent visit, I have even begun to wonder
how much of the flavour that I have associated with Marris Otter malt,
is in fact the enhancement of certain malt flavours by the dry, slightly
bitter taste of gypsum.

"Ah dun thunk me up 'nother 'spurment" (that for the benefit of Jim
Bermingham, who believe it or not, actually lives in a place called
"Millsap"... I am NOT making this up... It only needs a follow up post
from a Jim Mellsap from Birmingham)

I am considering adding Gypsum after the mash (perhaps in the boil?
Perhaps at kegging?... sort of a "dry gypsuming"), to a brew made with
Bavarian lager malt, because as I really try and separate the taste
characterisics that are "malt only", I do find these malts quite
similar... perhaps the gypsum will push the Bavarian into a traditional
"English two row" flavour... perhaps not.

One thing's for sure, with that malt and my water, I don't need the
gypsum for pH purposes, so perhaps having it as a flavour enhancer later
in the process would be somnething interesting to toy with.

If anyone has any practical experience with doing something similar, I
would be happy to receive any "tips" from them.

If anyone would like to tell me that this is theoretically impossible, I
shall probably read with interest, but any predicted result short of a
Chernobyl meltdown would probably not keep me from trying it anyway.

Dr. Pivo  (poo--poo--pee-doo!)


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:05:16 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: spellun'

ooops. just discovered I wrote a "hybrid".

I meant "Sulphate" rather than Sulfate (it's the ones that are similarly
spelled or pronounced in different languages that will trip you up every
time... and Lord knows I stumble enough.)

dp


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:35:48 -0400
From: Israel Christie <ichristie at vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Sooky, Sooky La La

>>for some reason Doc Pivo sounds like John Cleese
>>in my mind (when he's being proper or official)
>>Nah - wrong accent.  Think Max Von Sydow.

>Funny, I though he sounded more like the Swedish Chef. ;-)

I always thought Doc P. would sound sound a bit like Michael Cain.
Saying only...
		a few words...
				at a time.
- -- 
___________________________________________
Israel Christie
Graduate Student in Psychological Science
Dept. of Psychology
5088 Derring Hall
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0436

Success is not final, failure is not fatal;
it is the courage to continue that counts.
 -Sir Winston Churchill
___________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:35:34 -0500
From: Kim Hansen <Kim.Hansen at bankfirstcorp.com>
Subject: Re: rugby

Keith writes:

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:23:53 +1200
>From: "Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz>
>Subject: rugby
>
>>The Wallabies got up: The Australian national rugby union team beat New
>>Zealand in a close game to retain the Bledisloe Cup.
>
>
>
>The 16th. player helped a wee bit to.
>

OK, I'll admit I'm not much of a contributer to the HBD, I'm more of
a lurker.  I do enjoy reading and watching people vent and provide
insight about their locales and habits as pertains to homebrewing
(rather loosely, in some cases, you know who you are) and their
social activities with it.  It gives the HBD a "flavor" for all the
internationalities
that subscribe and provide input.  Hell, I like hearing about a brewpub
that I'll never visit, or someone's homesetup that the only way I may
be able to see it is if they post pictures on their web site.

But, when I start seeing subject lines that start off with "rubgy" and
mention someones opinions about a sporting event that should be 
showing up on a sporting forum, let's get realistic here!  That is a
blatant waste of bandwidth.  Want to provide that kind of opinion
to the poster?  Respond directly to him, don't share it with the rest
of us!

Oh, by the way, I mowed my lawn last night, and tonight I'm going
to rake up the grass clippings (sarcasm).

OK, I've got my flackjacket on, let me have it...

Kim




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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:37:25 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Janitors, licenses and the Land O Plenty

Dave Harsh writes: 

>Pat has a right to contribute and I frankly don't care if inserted
>himself in the queue a little sooner.  Call it the only payment he got
>for his efforts.  

You score a 3 pointer, Dave!  
I wonder how many people here have tried to maintain a server and moderate a
digest?  It takes a lot.  You have to balance time spent on that with work,
family and a host of other things (plus, leave time for brewing).  It's not
easy.  Pat and Karl get a big, appreciative pat on the back from me too!

Andrew McLaughlin asked:

>Does anyone know the remifications of selling beer? What are the limits
>before I need a license? What does a license cost?

You need to check the statutes of your state.  But I can guarantee that if
you sell your beer without a licence (in any volume and in any state in the
Union) it is illegal. Mainly because the taxman wants his due.

Warren White wrote of the The Land of Plenty:

>When I see U.S. recipe posts for a pale ale with the following
>ingredients:
>
>(This is just hypothetical of course but it happens)
>
>>10 lb. DWC Pale Ale   (not avail. here)
>2 lb. American Vienna   (not avail. here)
>What no crystal? Bit hard with that many varieties!
>2 lb. American Munich   (not avail. here)
>1 lb. Dextrine malt (Cara-Pils)   (not even this)
>1 lb. Honey Gambris Malt   (not avail. here)
>0.25 lb. Special B   (not avail. here)
>0.25 lb. Aromatic   (not avail. here)
>0.25 lb. Biscuit   (not avail. here)
>0.25 lb. Victory Malt   (not avail. here)
>Car Vienne, Rachmalt, Peated Malt  etc. etc. etc.

>Makes for analy retentive brewing dunnit!

I get the point.  Yes, we Americans have it good with our available
selections.  I think the Europeans also have a pretty good selection of
grains at their disposal too.  But you bring up another good point too.  It
seems that some people must create a grain bill that goes on forever.  It
has one or two base malts and then becomes a quarter-pound listing of their
favorite specialty malts.  Then there's the hops...  5 different additions,
3 or 4 varieties and measurements such as 3.65 oz. (and that's a rounded-off
number).  The beer becomes so complex, sometimes muddled, I can't pick out a
single malt or hop flavor.  It's a phenomenon most commonly seen with brown
ales, in particular.

Case in point: My homebrew club made a California Common for the Big Brew
2000 (they like to be different).  I got there a few minutes late and the
mashes were just about to be struck.  One common grain bill, but I had no
choice in it's formulation.  After collecting my portion of the grains I
asked the shop proprietor what the bill was because I like to keep records.
This guy has the best memory in the world.  He rattled off the first 6
grains, got tired of reciting and then said to check with one of the other
guys.  I didn't bother because big grain bills don't impress me.  "I used a
dozen specialty malts in my beer!"  Yes, but I only used three wisely and my
beer kicks your ass.

Sure.  Some great beers have been made with grain bills as long as your arm
and their flavors may not be achievable any other way.  But I think the
hallmark of a great beer, and more importantly great brewer, is complexity
of flavor with a simple recipe.  Just an opinion to spark some discussion...
Mwahahaha!


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:01:34 -0500
From: Joseph Gibbens <jgibbens at umr.edu>
Subject: I stand corrected

Oops, I was wrong.  I guess there is some sodium hydroxide in bleach to 
keep the friendly chlorine from coming out.  Thanks for the info.

Joe


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:55:13 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: SWMBO

     She Who Must Be Obeyed.  Lot of single guys on the HBD, eh?  Thought
     this was a universal term!  Come to think of it, the term was nearly
     as applicable before matrimony.  ;)

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX

     Too many drunks, not enough bleach!  Yes dear, right away honey.


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:06:53 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Bye

From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>

>..Crimony. I might as well quit. Those I would have expected to support are
>contrary to the concept. Astounding! I guess I'm more of a fool than I'd
>ever imagined...

>...Well, thanks all for the ride - I do think it high time I get off. It
has
>been quite an education....

Jeez, Pat, is this not picking up your marbles and leaving because you
aren't winning?

I must be dense, but I did not realize that you said bye in your previous
post, apparently you have.  I am surprised that something like the subject
of debate was the mechanism that triggered your action.

I read someone's suggestion that the discussion be taken off line.  This is
hard to resolve, is not the quintessential purpose of an open forum for the
very object of discussion.  To learn, and for others to learn.  Learn from
writings, learn from opinions, then "digest" them for one's own opinion and
knowledge.  Is this not the system for electing leaders.  One does not
believe every word from any politician, no, one listens, and to ones ability
and skill, one decides for himself where the truth lies.  But, you need all
the various input.

I have refrained from personally joining in on the subject of
drunks/homebrewers, it seemed to be taken much too seriously by many of the
posters.  I have learned long time ago in life to not take things too
seriously, or at least to know when.

I can tell you that some things can never be changed, the world will always
have cockroaches, and the world will always have bullies that want to
control others.  Sure, if everyone just stopped thinking that homebrewers
were drunks, it would be great.  And if everyone just stopped having wars
and killing one another, that would be great too, don't hold your breath
waiting.

Well, Pat, come or go, I want to thank you for all your tireless efforts and
accomplishments and I for one do hope you have not gone.

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:36:14 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Essentially versus is

Brewsters:

I have had a steady stream of offline and some online comments about my
statement that "bleach is essentially sodium hydroxide" when referring to
its basic properties ( that is to dissolve glass)  NOT its oxidative
properites.  Dave Harsh suggests that maybe I was redefining "is". Nope, I
used the modifier "essentially" , which many seemed to miss. 

Sodium hypochlorite is made by electrolysing sodium chloride brine
solution. The products are chlorine and hydroxide ion at the same electrode
and you get sodium hypochlorite. If you remove the chlorine by oxidising
something ( which is what we are talking about doing)  you get sodium
hydroxide left over.  Now whether or not a 5% solution of sodium hydroxide
I don't know, it will likely do it slowly. I was just trying to explain why
it was suggested that bleach would etch glass.  It is true that bleach used
to come in glass bottles, but then the alkaline character of the hydroxide
ion was mitigated by the chlorine.

Soda glass is often called "soft glass" to distinguish it from quartz or
pyrex glass. Most glass we use for beverages is soda glass.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:29:49 -0700
From: netidjit at yahoo.com
Subject: An Article I Think You'll Find Interesting

I thought you might find this article interesting.

Article URL:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4796/44563

Title:
Are Homebrewers Drunks?

Description:
Many people believe that homebrewing is a hobby in decline.
Are homebrewers just a bunch of drunks looking for a cheap
buzz? Or are we responsible consumers of a carefully crafted 
product?







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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:51:52 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: diacetyl flavour for spiking beer

A beer club meeting I went to about two years ago used a little creativity
to duplicate many flavours or a close enough analog for spiking beer. Use
the BJCP guide to off flavours and use those. It's not perfect but it is
something.  So if old stale beer tastes like cardboard, they soaked a piece
of cardboard in a small amount of beer and blended it with the test beer.
Cooked cabbage, alcohol, sherry, smoke, iron, etc etc.

We've found that by putting massive amounts of the desired flavour in a
plain beer background (we use Coors Light) it makes it easier to detect
smaller amounts in real beers.

I would also be interested in finding a cheap source of chemical spiking
agents, but until that is available we'll have to be creative. Lab quality
chemicals tend to be pricey.

pksmith_morin asked about Diacetyl, pediococcus, and lactobacillus:

Artificial Butter Flavour is mostly diacetyl.  There are other ingredients,
but the main flavour is there, I found about 1/4-1/2 tsp of Molly McButter
per bottle of Coors made the diacetyl HUGE. The main ingredient is
maltodextrin, then salt, and butter flavour.  The salt is problematic, I'd
rather have pure diacetyl.

Wyeast sells #4355 Lactobacillus delbrueckii and #4733 Pediococcus
cerevisiae. We'd be glad to order some for you.

Of course if you have an infection it will probably be a different
Lactobacillus, and you can get that from grain dust. Just let grain dust
from your base pale malt drift onto your cool wort. I speak, unfortunately,
from experience. Presto: when the beer is finished and about 3 weeks in the
bottle you will have massive smoky phenolics and sour lactic acid.

The pediococcus you DON'T want in your brew system. I think Wyeast's may be
a different strain, but some Pedio can survive autoclaving!

Coliform and Obesumbacterium can be found in your handy dandy compost
bucket. Just let them at a cool bottle of wort...

Have fun!


Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiae sugant."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:48:23 GMT
From: happydog at nations.net
Subject: Blenheim Ginger Ale

>Hi All,
>I can't resist the recent posts about Ginger Ale and Vernor's.  Vernors is 
>probably my favorite soft drink.  Mmm good.  Earlier this week on FoodTV 
>they did a feature on a soda from Blenheim's bottling.  Apparently they've 
>got hot and waayy hot ginger ale.  Anybody in the South Carolina area 
>familiar with this?  

Been there, drank that and its way HOT. As a matter of fact they have
two types, One hot and one very hot. Its great to mix with rum. As a
matter of fact there is a bar in Bermuda that makes a house rum drink
with Blenheim and only Blenheim. The first place I drank it was in an
old run down country gas station on the way to Myrtle Beach from
Charleston. You go in this place and they have a 40 ft long horse
troth filled with ice and every type of soft drink you can think of.
Reach in, pull out soda and wait for your arm to thaw before bending
it to drink. You can buy it at any Hoggly Woggly (piggly wiggle) here
in town during the summer. WARNING do NOT drink with chapped lips;-)

Side note. I closed my store for the first time in 2 years for 4 hours
to go out and watch the CSS Hunley come home after 136 years. Man what
a great day for South Carolina.

Wil Kolb
Happy Dog Brewing Supplies
401 W.Coleman Blvd
Mt Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084
1-800-528-9391
happydog at nations.net
www.maltydog.com


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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:23:43 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: re: the decoction momily...

>>Does Decoction mashing make a real difference?<<

I think Dr. Lewis hints about this in his paper when he talks about
decoction mashing begin a technique used prior to the invention of reliable
thermometers.  I don't think anyone on this list would argue that
temperature is a significant variable in mashing.  As I understand it from
books that I have read (no citations, so don't ask), decoction mashing was a
way that the european brewers could hit a fairly accurate target temperature
consistently in the absence of thermometers.  With the advent of
thermometers and well modified grains (another point Dr. Lewis points out),
the old technique gave way to programmed step mashing and infusion mashing.
I personally think that the perception of decoction mashing adding to the
quality of the beer is based on people's natural tendency to think that "old
means quality."  As Dr. Lewis points out, he has data to indicate that
decoction mashing is really a "momily."

PS - If Pat leaves, I'm gone as well - to return in kinder, gentler times.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu



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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:08:27 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: A response to Dave Harsh and an apology to Pat

> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:43:12 -0400
> From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
> Subject: Bleach / "drunk" flames & netiquette
> - ------------------------------
> "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> blathers:
>
> >...nettiquette of digest....
> >....(much drivel mercifully deleted)....
>
> Try some decaf, huh?  With a clue or sugar?  Maybe you should go to
> hbd.org and read the policies on moderation.  In particular, parts 5-A
> and 5-B.
>
> No beer related topic is censored.   In one case, two daily digest
> contributors agreed to take their "is not - is too" argument offline
> with regard to testing for sugars in wort.
>
> And by the way, thanks for the extremely useful subject line
> of your post.
>
> Pat has a right to contribute and I frankly don't care if inserted
> himself in the queue a little sooner.  Call it the only payment he got
> for his efforts.  If you think he was lax wrt spam, maybe Karl should
> let it all through for the next week or so and see how things go.  I
> hope Pat reconsiders leaving the digest.  I note that he is no longer
> listed as a janitor on duty.
>
> Dave Harsh					Cincinnati, OH
> 	Bloatarian Brewing (and Pat Babcock Defense) League
>

Subject line clear enough for you, Dave? What's the matter, get confused by
my prose without some nice, short simple words to get you back on track? Do
you only watch  sitcoms that explain the premise in the theme song? And "get
a cup of decaf with a clue", is that the most original line you could come
up with? That one's staler than a loaf of pumpernickel in a nursing home.

Anyway, Pat, even before brownie here leapt to your defense, I had decided
to apologize for my comments. The nettiquette angle was out of line, and I
regret bringing it up. The spam reference was just my attempt at a humourous
lead-in. You guys do a very good job of keeping the Digest spam-free.
However, I do still feel that at times you got excessively abusive in your
comments, especially your references to your opponents on this topic perhaps
being a bad example to their children.

Brian



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---