---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: "Dead bacteria walking" (Darren Miller)
  One more to spew on.. (Rod Prather)
  To good to be trub? (BShotola)
  re: good mail order stores? (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: First time all grain brewer has a pH question (Lance Levsen)
  Ayinger Hells, my BdG ("Graham Sanders")
  Decoction ("Graham Sanders")
  re: Complexity and grain bills/political screed ("Stephen Alexander")
  Carapils; need for a pH meter (Ant Hayes)
  Freezing yeast (John Baxter Biggins)
  RE: Freezing yeast ("Walter H. Lewis III")
  One For The Aussies ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  I voted and I want to Complain ("Fred Kingston")
  Autoclaves & bleach ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Chimay Blue ("Spies, Jay")
  Re: Wyeast Pitchable (John Adsit)
  Fruit in Beer (Rod Prather)
  Brussels/Koln/Dusseldorf/London ("Bruce Garner")
  Want to buy Filter ("Bruce Garner")
  Books on growing hops (Ken Miller)
  Brewpots/FWH/and Yeast Starters (Andrew Nix)
  Mash temps and enzyme activity (Doug Hurst)
  Re: Freezing yeast ("patrick finerty jr.")
  re: Who creates laws anyway? (Bill Wible)
  re: good mail order stores? (Rama Roberts)
  Peaches and Politics with beer (AlannnnT)
  Adelaide Hills Homebrew club (Darren)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:09:54 +0900
From: Darren Miller <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: re: "Dead bacteria walking"

I might start by saying that I agree entirely that no organism can 
survive autoclaving in a properly functioning autoclave. I do though 
understand how an organism could survive in an autoclave. Generally the 
only type of autoclave that could be described as "fully functional" 
would exist only in a hospital setting. You wouldnt get your homebrew 
gear within 100 metres of one of these. If you were to use a hospital 
autoclave there are numerous factors which effect the efficacy of 
sterilisation. One of these is the first rule of sterilisation and that 
is correct cleaning. There have been numerous cases of human infection 
with hep B virus where surgical equipment had been correctly sterilised 
in an autoclave but were not cleaned properly. (i might add that viruses 
are no more resistant to autoclaving than spore forming bacteria) and 
hospital autoclaves usually run at 132 degrees C for twenty minutes.As a 
side point too, Hep B virus can be grown from 2/5 re-usable instruments 
found in dental surgeries even though they have been "autoclaved". The 
reason people arn't becoming infected with the virus is the dose is too 
low. Secondly the amount placed in an autoclave and how it is packaged 
can adversely effect the efficacy of autoclaving. For these reasons I 
cannot see why a "heat resistant" bacteria cannot survive autoclaving 
especially with the caked on crap I see on my fermentors following three 
months lagering. I guess what I am saying is that no amount of 
sanitation will work on poorly cleaned equipment.
cheers and brew on
Bruce C. Lately



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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:04:55 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: One more to spew on..

Ran into this one last week while sitting 
by Kentucky Lake kicking back a few.

Chumming the Cove.
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana




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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 02:20:34 EDT
From: BShotola at aol.com
Subject: To good to be trub?

Thanks to all of you who responded to my mash questions a couple of days ago. 
Using the KISS system, I will infusion mash and not fret too much about HSA. 
I can step up to step mashing after learning the basics. 

I have some new questions, still all in preparation of my big first all grain 
fiasco - er- fiesta...

Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot break trub from 
the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged with a copper 
scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang wort for a short 
time to resanitize. I don't have an additional large brewpot  so I guess I 
have to siphon into two smaller pots and then, trying not to aerate, get it 
all back into the original big bertha for the reboil. 

1) What happens in the meantime to the concept of the last minute steeping of 
aroma hops? Should I hold those off for the reboil? Egad.

2) Can I, with sanitized tools and putting down homebrew, carefully whirlpool 
and siphon AFTER immersion chilling, or will God in his infinite wisdom 
strike my beer down dead with every variety of microbe in Yamhill County? 

3) How does one get the five gallons of cooled wort from the pot to the 
carboy? Can I put on my weight training belt and just lift the pot and pour 
through a strainer full of hops as in the good old extract days? Or is this 
insane and foolhardy and instead I should siphon? I picture a 2 meter long 
siphon, with the wort building up enough speed to make a great frothy aerated 
waterfall in my carboy. Oh boy, can't wait to brew!


Bob Shotola 
on topic in Yamhill, Oregon


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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:31:38 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: good mail order stores?

Rama,

>I'd like to start my first batch, but there aren't any
>brew supply stores nearby.

I'm sure you've looked.  What about local homebrewers?  BTW, where
are you located? Sorry Jeff, looks like I'm taking over your job.

>Anyone have any recommendations for a mail order brew
>supply store, preferrably online?

I've only ever dealt with William's and that is usually only for
stuff that my local shop doesn't carry.  I've never bought
ingredients mail order or online.  I'm sure a multi-engine
search site would net you a lot of results.  If you look at some
of the signatures, you'll find there are some of the shops that
post to the HBD.  These places might also be a good start.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Homebrewery
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:53:24 -0600
From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com>
Subject: Re: First time all grain brewer has a pH question 


> I plan on preboiling my water the day before to get rid of chlorine (which
> isn't noticable out of the tap any way).  The ph and total hardness of my
> tap water range seasonally from 8.5-9.2 and 44-82 respectively.  If you're

Well, one thing going in your favour. Calcium Bicarbonate will precipitate out
of your water after the boil. This will reduce the pH of the water, in turn
allowing the grains to bring it down to at least the magic 5.3. A note though,
higher levels of bicarbonate are good for bitters. An alternative is to let the
water sit in a primary for three days, the chlorine with escape.

As to, "Is my beer doomed" . . . Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew.  :-) I've
done water treatment, and not done water treatment, for a range of ale styles,
in different regions. The beer is always good.

Water treatment is (IMNSHO) step 5; sanitary conditions, full-wort boil,
chilling, and liquid yeast come before water treatment for good beer.

Undoubtably this will raise the ire of readers . . . C'est la vie.

Cheers,
- -- 
Lance Levsen, Programmer
Product Innovation
PWGroup - S'toon.
477-3166



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 07:20:46 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Ayinger Hells, my BdG

G'day All

Well I have been a bit busy this week making my new brew room.  Got to pour
the slab on Thursday and thats taking a lot of my spare time.  But I have
been thru too weekends of Rugby finals with my Ayinger Hells and BdG and
thought a small report was in order. I must first point out that I haven't
attended any state of the art tasting school so my description is solely on
a North queensland triangular taste test.

First was Phils drug induced Ayinger.  I put this on a fairly standard Hells
and do like the results. I found it to be very clean with a dry crisp
flavour.  The malt came throu, but also some hop bitterness.  Interesting
SWMBO hates bitter beers, and will screw up her nose at anything with any
astrigency but found this hells very nice (most unfortunately).  I remember
Jeff Renner having high praise for this yeast and I have to agree.  Not too
bad. Thing it would go great in all lightly flavoured lagers, certainly
Pilsners, Octoberfest to Viennas, and the light coloured bocks.  I do wonder
thou how it would go on the darker lagers, especially a big Bock or
Dopplebock, where you are after a more richer, full bodied flavour.  Might
still stick to my Barvarian for that.  But yes the ayinger is now a
permanent member of my yeast bank. Will try it in a Octoberfest, or German
Pils next.  Suck time.  Thanks Phils for sharing this.

Next is my BdG.  Made in June , tasted the first last weekend.  Now here's a
bloody complex beer, and i do mean complex.  For me with no real training in
tasting, I was slurping, sloshing almost gargling trying to work out the
flavours.  It was the threat of sex from SWMBO that made me stop.

Anyway the colour was great.  A deep red ruby colour out of the bottle.
Never got a beer with this colour before.  The nose was difficult to
describe.  It was dry slightly estery (like a very, very weak belgian), but
when you gave it a swirl, it was also sweet, spicy with a slight plum edge.
Most gratifying to say the least. Til I was yelled at "Well are you going to
drink the thing or not".

Taste was easier.  definitely caramel type tastes first up front. as the
beer goes over the tongue this is then overpowered by more general malt
flavour but by the time its at the back of the tongue its nicely dry and
refreshing.  On the sample with a bit of wood shavings it also finished off
with a slight tannic edge that was not at all unpleasant.  Overall, it
certainly left you licking you lips wanting more.

This is certainly the closest I have had to some of the BdG I have had here.
Certainly recommend to any BdG brewers the least you could try is to boil
down part of the wort into a syrup and add it back to the boil.  It gives an
unreal complexity.


Oh what is a North Queensland Triangular taste test.  Pour three glasses to
be sampled out.  Start with your weakest hand (most its the left) and take
in its aroma and take a drink.  If you can get it to your mouth with this
hand the smell can't be too bad so its worth proceding.  Pick up the next
one in the right hand.  Now you have had a good smell and slight taste, so
you need a stronger hand and will to get it to your mouth.  Have a good swig
and really taste the beer for whats its worth.  Now pick up the third glass
in both hands.  If you can force this one to the mouth it must be all right
to drink and judge.

Shout

Graham Sanders



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:32:05 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Decoction

G'day All

Well have to wade into this one (with my pet saltie in tow to protect me of
course)
 .

>Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:20:01 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: Decoction and other fun topics . . . .

Hi folks:

Are the perceived qualitative benefits of decoction mashing real, or just a
momily?........  there is nothing that amateur brewers can get
from decoction mashing that you can't also get from step infusion mashing
and recipe formulation (e.g., increase the amount of Munich malt a bit if
you want more melanoidins).<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Now in typical NQLD style lets do the last point first. By saying you can
get these flavours by adjusting your receipe implies that there is something
to be gained from a decoction mash.  And to take it a step further,
adjusting receipes to try to duplicate a flavour rarely is the same as
getting that original flavour, be it beer or cooking. Sure there are
shortcuts in everything, but usually there is a price to pay as well.

Now is a decoction worth while in gereral (lets stick to flavour and not
other varables like efficiency, time, colour etc)?   Well I find the answer
is
a yes -no.  Oh I hear it now, he's fence sitting again (or am I sitting on
some-ones pole).  We did a bit of experimenting a few years back at the club
on decoctions.  You know, identical receipes, blind tasting and all that
crap. Anyway we could pick up the difference between a decoction mash and a
step infusion mash, especially so in the lighter beers, like a heffeW.  It
was definitely there, a slight extra dimention to the flavour.  (so where's
the fence sitting come in)

But, dont do it side by side, or give one sample a week appart, well not
many could pick which was which (although the experienced brewers could).
So, yes decoction does work, but I believe its suttle and not easily picked
up
by most craftbrewers.  So I can also agree with the reasoning of chucking in
a handful of Munich if you like.

I do Double and tripple decoctions on all my lagers and even the
occasional ale, only because I want that extra .001% improvement in my
beers. And also, any excuss to extend the mash day so I dont have to front
SWMBO.

Shout

Graham Sanders







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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 05:43:20 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Complexity and grain bills/political screed

Jim Verlinde
>Many times I have wondered what is meant when a beer is judged
>as "complex" and what contributes to this characteristic. Would a long
grain
>bill, variety of hop additions, or some specific brewing techniques
>transform a beer from an average, Plain-Jane brew into something complex
and
>therefore wonderful?

Complex flavors include  MULTIPLE DISTINCT flavors, but "therefore
wonderful" doesn't automatically follow.   To be distinct the different
flavors must be in some range of balance.  The "wonderful" part comes in if
flavors work well with each other.  You might be able to balance flavors in
a sauce of tomato, ginger and mint - and tho complex I doubt it could
ever be wonderful.

Examples of a simple vs complex flavor would be artificial fruit flavors vs
same natural fruit flavor.  The artificial ones often have the same top
few flavor chemicals, but the natural products have a lot of secondary
flavors that add greatly to complexity.   Some of the artificial flavors in
children's drinks and candy are remarkably one dimensional, simple.
Maybe that's why so many adults prefer unchallenging lagers ?

Beer seems as tho' it would be an inherently complex beverage,
with contributions from malt, yeast, hops, minerals and carbonation - yet
it's all relative.  Some beers rely heavily on one component so balance is
lost and other flavors cease to be distinct.  A lot of HB APAs are this
way - the hops are so big it overshadows any malt or yeast.  Too many
US weizen's just whack you on the head with 4VG+banana esters   I'm
sure we've all had or made an ale that just had pale+crystal+EKG and
a conventional yeast - and altho' the components are in balance and
it tastes quite good, it's just too obvious what went into it.  Yeasts -
some
give inherently complex flavors, others more simple (e.g. wy1028 vs
wy1056).

>Or, on the other hand, can a beer brewed with a simple
>recipe be considered "complex"?

I've good friend who is far better than I with recipe formulation.  I don't
mean to give away Mark's edge - but he always uses three  different hops, as
I dimly recall  two in balance, one in background.  More is a waste, tho'
fewer can make a great beer too.

Some malts can present complex flavors alone, but it's not always the case.
Some malts really are very plain tasting.  A good base malt really doesn't
need a lot of dressing up.  It takes only two or three distinct and
balanced malts and hops to confuse your senses.  And every beer doesn't
need to have complex malt and hops and yeast flavors - even one complex
facet works nicely.  IMO recipes with more than about 4 malts or hops are
often just 'hacks', as is obvious when you see tiny quantities or near
duplicate ingredients.

==

>Amendment I
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
>petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That is the 'separation' talked about.  It says the govt can't touch
religion or it's practice..  If you are upset w/  the semi-convincing
religious chatter by candidates - well I understand but it's unrelated.   So
too the legitimate lobbying of churches or anyone else for their POVs.  I
agree with David Harsh that players from all over the political spectrum
oppose alcohol, not especially churches.  Even if they did - so what ?

The problem isn't that prohibitionists or anti-smoking lobbyists represent a
majority view.  That would be fine.  It's that a majority may unjustly
infringe on the rights of a minority.  That's why I fundamentally disagree
with PatB's approach of trying to sway opinion re HB.  It may be
advantageous on one issue, but it glosses over the fundamental problem -
respect for the rights of minorities and tolerance for nonPC activities.

Why can't women(a majority) vote to remove the voting rights of men for
example ?  This problem is deTocqueville's  'tyranny of the majority', also
addressed in the Federalist Papers.  The bill of rights, and several
additional amendments  are supposed to prevent this by citing specific
rights and ceding all other rights to states and individuals.  Not very
closely observed for 100+yrs tho'.

How is it fair that a majority shift most of the Fed tax burden to  Bill
Gates, Steve Forbes and their ilk ?   How can P.D.Moynihan talk blithely
about punitive taxes on constitutionally protected rights ?   Or
Mr.Lieberman(sp?), the DEM VP candidate,  last week to threaten the movie
industry w/ usurpation of 1st amendment rights ?  [GOPs can be just as
boneheaded].  It has to do with appealing to a majority so to void rights
of,
or place unjust burdens on, a minority.  Very undemocratic stuff.

Suing companies that produce a legal tobacco products which act exactly as
expected and advertized (at least for the past 25+ yrs) makes little sense.
Why not sue Morton salt for making a hypertensive food agent that has
undoubtedly lead to a great number of health problems ?   Also where will
the settlement money come from when an unburdened new tobacco company starts
selling Marlboro knock-offs ?  RJR's Oreos ?

Of course similar arguments as used against tobacco could be made against
fast food, alcohol, junk foods, unsecured loan & credit card offers,
stepladders, how-to books, state lotteries, casinos, skydiving & climbing
equipment, amateur mycology books, fast cars and beautiful women.  All
things which tempt us to actions that we should not undertake carelessly,
yet we should be able to undertake despite risks and social costs.

Not making a ready target of oneself, as LouisB suggests is undoubtedly
advantageous in the short term, but it does nothing to solve the problem.

 -S





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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:55:23 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Carapils; need for a pH meter

Glen Pannicke said, 

"One thing I've been doing to just about every batch is adding a small
portion of carapils or carafoam to the bill to aid in creating a head on the
beer.  I'd like to achieve the same effects without adding this charge."

Carapils and carafoam have not made it out here as far as I know. 100g of
cake flour in a 20 litre batch works for me as a heading agent. (Thanks Andy
Mitchell) Alternatively a protein rest seems to work as well.

Paul McLaughlin asked,
"With the "keep it simple" mantra in mind, do I really need to worry about
adjusting or even measuring the pH if my tap water is nothing out of the
ordinary and I'm using a fully modified malt?"

You can taste a beer where the pH is too high - which is likely if you do
not adjust pH since most tap water has a pH above 7 and malt buffers at
about 5,5 (or thereabouts). However, I brewed for many years without the aid
of a pH meter - working out the amount of acid to use by trial and error. A
teaspoon of citric acid granules in the mash liquor, and another in the
sparge liquor, on a 20 litre batch did the trick given my tap water. 

When I finally bought a pH meter I found that I was adding slightly too much
acid - but the improvement in my beers has been marginal.

However if you are going to acid wash your yeast a pH meter is critical in
my view, and proper yeast management has improved my beer more than almost
anything else.

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 07:36:21 -0400
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Freezing yeast

Yeast need to be in a 15% glycerol solution in order to freeze.  The 
glycerol prevents cell wall lysing and gives a "sherbert" like 
consistency when frozen, so it is easy to scrape up a sample for 
re-growth.

To regrow, take a stab from the frozen stock & smear on an agar plate 
w/ media (wort).  Grow under the same growth conditions you do for 
normal yeast fermentation & wait for nice healthy colonies or smears 
to form over the next 2-3 days (white & fluffy).  Take colony & 
re-grow in small amount of wort (~1 mL) until confluent growth & 
repitch into 10x amount of fresh wort (10 mL) & repeat (100 mL --> 1 
L --> etc)  until you have enough to pitch a nice churning starter 
for your primary.  Needless to say, avoiding possible contamination 
is paramount. Bacterial contamination during re-growth screws the 
entire process & a contaminated glycerol stock is garbage.
- -- 

John B. Biggins
Cornell University Medical College
Weill Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Student -- Program in Pharmacology

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Laboratory for Biosynthetic Chemistry
Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Therapeutics
lab:(212)693-6405   fax:(212)717-3135
http://www.ski.edu/lab_homepage.cfm?lab=189

	"Science, like Nature, must also be tamed
	   With a view towards its preservation.
	 Given the same state of integrity
	   It will surely serve us well."
	    -- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:11:59 -0700
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: RE: Freezing yeast

After reading several posts regarding freezing yeast I gave it a try.

I made a 50/50 mix of glycerine and water. Got as much liquid off the
yeast cake of my fermenter as  Icould. Added the 50/50, sloshed and put
the slury in a sanitized container.

A week later I harvested a couple of tablespoons of the slury and began
to step up the yeast.

I had harvested Wyeast American II. It began to bubble, but the crausen
didn't seem to fall. I smelled the yeast and found a distinct sour
aroma. Not what I was comfortable with.

Several weeks later I checked on my frozen yeast. SOLID! Not what I had
expected.

This experiment was a failure for me, but I'd love to try again and hear
some success stories.

Walt Lewis



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:47:07 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: One For The Aussies

Steve Lacey, after having a chit chat conversation off line with John
Palmer, asks the question of real Aussies (ie ones who don't live in Sydney
and care naught but a donkey's turd for the up and coming Olympics), "what
do we do over here about the grain conversion rating units of pts per pound?

I'd like to address the question but I am afraid I don't understand it.

I'm a bit wary of Steve's questions. He's already conned me into donating a
keg of rice lager (and I might add, my presence) at a homebrew promotion day
in October in his beloved Sydney where men are men and the men are nervous.

But I digress. What are "pts per pound"? Are we talking about extraction
efficiency? Do you mean points per pound?
I have my own calculations and I never go near promash. I'm quite happy to
offer them if this is what you are asking.

But as I said, I am wary of Steve's requests. Here I am donating a keg of
rice lager when I have more than a fair share of half naked ladies huddled
around the pool table wondering what the hell to do with a totally naked
Eric Fouch spread eagled on the felt!

Feeling a bit confused?
So am I !!

Eric says he "aint movin" till someone shows him where the outback is.

Let Me Do The Honours
Phil



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:15:11 -0400
From: "Fred Kingston" <Fred at KingstonCo.com>
Subject: I voted and I want to Complain

On August 14, 2000, John Schnupp postulates:

> WELL, here's one solution: If you don't vote, don't bitch.
>
> If you were elected, wouldn't the laws you create be based on your
> "beliefs"?  And wouldn't you have gotten elected in the first place
> because you got enough people who had similar "beliefs" to vote for
> you?

John....

I voted. Although, I didn't vote for the current folks. I simply didn't
believe in their affairs of state... if you know what I mean.... :)

Does your premise also mean, that because one has voted, one is not allowed
to raise questions of dissent?

Maybe if THOSE folks relaxed, and had a homebrew, they'd have less
problems....

Fred Kingston



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:16:56 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Autoclaves & bleach

Alan and Jesse both can't believe that there are any organisms which can
survive a properly functioning autoclave.  I'd have to agree with them.  At
121 deg C, and 15 psi you'll kill just about everything in about 30 minutes.
If you don't believe it then the next time the doctor wants to stick you
with a needle, tell him/her "NO!  It's not sterile and I don't want to die
of bacteraemia!"

The effectiveness of autoclaving is determined by the rate at which
bacterial cells are thermally inactivated.  This rate is dependent upon 3
factors: pressure, temperature and the time of heat exposure.   In practical
terms this means that it would take a longer amount of time at lower
temperatures to sterilize a given population than at a high temperature.
Additionally, the higher the concentration of organisms that need to be
killed, the longer it will take to kill all of the cells in that population
at the same temperature.  In validating an autoclave, test are performed on
known loads.  These tests determine the time, pressure and temperature
needed to sterilize a biological indicator (such as Bacillus
stearothermophilus spores) at a pre-determined concentration.   As you can
guess by the name, B. stearothermophilus is a heat-loving bacteria.
Pediococcus is good at finding hiding places such as scratches in your
plastic fermenter or pores in your wooden cask where it can hide from bleach
and other sanitizers, but compared to a B. stearothermophilus spore in an
autoclave, it's a wuss.

Most cases of autoclave failure are attributed to mechanical failure of the
autoclave or operator error.  Operator error would also include procedural
errors which account for insufficient autoclave time.  Many medical waste
disposal procedures call for what I would consider to be overkill 131 deg C,
25 psi and 60 minutes contact time.  But we want to be sure in these
cases...

Phil W. wrote about bleach:

>I had a discussion with my friends at the herb farm about using bleach to
>sanitize. They had heard trough a trade magazine or Agricultural Bullitin
>that the Scented Bleach that Clorox and others have come out with lately do
>not have a sanitizing effect.

If the bleach contains 5.25% sodium hypochlorite it will work just fine.  I
personally shy away from scents and thickening agents due to unknown
rinsibility issues.  Who wants rain fresh beer?!?  The less crap you have in
there, the better off you are.


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:26:53 -0400
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Chimay Blue

All -

Grant Stott wrote a few HBD's back asking for hints on reproducing Chimay
Blue, esp the raisiny notes (sorry for the delay, I'm behind in my HBD's).

He touched a subject near and dear to my heart - creating the perfect
replica of Chimay Grand Reserve (blue cap).  I have been tweaking it for
some time now, and I think I've got it down to where it's nearly spot on for
the real thing (it'll never be totally there...)

IMHO, you must use Belgian grains for the specialty additions, plus Noble
hops...  I feel that the plum/raisiny flavor comes from two things:
Special-B malt and Trappist yeast strains fermented in the low to mid 70's.

Here's my recipe for 10 gallons all grain:

Holy Grail Trappist Ale

Style:  Belgian Abbey-Style Dubbel

Brew Type:  All-Grain
Brew Length:  10 gallons
ABV:  8.6%
Efficiency:  65%		

Grist:
28 lbs 3L DeWolf Cosyns Pilsner malt
3.5 lbs 25L DWC Aromatic malt
3.5 lbs 22L DWC CaraVienne malt
1 lb 220L DWC Special-B malt
2 lb Cane Sugar

Yeast:
Combination of Whitelabs WLP 500 Trappist ale 
and Wyeast 3787 Westmalle Dubbel

Hops:
2 oz Styrian Goldings pellets (5.25% AA)  at  60
1 oz Hallertauer Mittlefrueh pellets (4.7% AA)  at  30
1 oz Saaz pellets (4.3% AA)  at  15

Water:
No water treatment

Specifics:
45 quarts water  at  167 degrees strike in (1.2 qt/lb)
Single Infusion  at  153 degrees for 90 min

Expected characteristics:
OG  1.083
FG  1.018
IBU  23
SRM  17.4

Hope this helps.  You can substitute Weyermann or Weissheimer Pils malt for
the DeWolf Cosyns, actually, I have gotten better conversion when I've done
it this way.  I'm not sure what you can get down there in OZ, though...
Just make sure you make a kick ass starter and oxygenate well prior to
pitching.

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:22:29 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Re: Wyeast Pitchable

Keith Busby asks about Wyeast pitchables.

My homebrew store owner had just picked up a few samples, and he asked
me if I would try one (without a starter) in my next brew, just to see
how it works.  I used a fresh bottle (10 days old) of Bohemian Pilsner
for a CAP I made this past Saturday.  I pitched at 5:00 PM, and, as per
instructions, left it at around 75 degrees until I saw visible
fermentation.  I spaced out checking it before going to bed, but it was
going full throttle by 8:00 the next morning, at which time I put it in
the fridge.  I don't know when visible fermentation started, but it was
clearly well within the 12 hours advertised on the label. It's still
going strong.

So, in my one personal experience with a Wyeast pitchable, I would have
to say that, as far as lag time is concerned at least, it was excellent,
even without a starter.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:08:59 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Fruit in Beer

Fruit in Beer??  I hope he isn't a relative.  Did you get him out?

I have a cooking program with a nutritional analysis utility 
attached.  It uses FDA / USDA nutritional data.  

According to Now You're Cooking (blatant plug by a satisfied user), 
1 Lb of sweet raw cherries has about 75.1 grams of carbohydrate.  
This is about equal to 6 tablespoons (74.9 grams) 
or about 2 3/4 oz by weight (77.8 grams) granulated sugar.  

Your 11 lb. of "emaciated   cherries,sweet,raw" should contain about 
825 grams as carbohydrates (I assume most to be fermentables).
just about equivalent to 30 oz (850 grams, almost 2 lbs) of 
granulated sugar.  I think it will taste like cherries though. 

Here's a few others. 

1 lb of blackberries,raw  	57.8 grams
1 lb of raspberries,raw   	52.5 grams
1 lb of peaches,raw	  	50.3 grams

Does anyone know how to get sg per pound?

I take no responsibility for these numbers.  Certainly they represent 
a mean value.  Plus, the numbers come from the FDA.  The people who 
allow you to put modified food starch, sugar and gelatin in yogurt 
and still call it yogurt.  If I put all that garbage in milk 
and tried to sell it, they'd make me call it pudding.  Stabilizers 
my ass.
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:42:33 -0500
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Brussels/Koln/Dusseldorf/London

In Koln spend an afternoon walking around the district just south of the
Cathedral. Start at Fruh and go to Peters, Gaffel, Paffgen etc. They are
subtly different and within a few blocks of each other. Fruh has very good
food. Earlier in the day, I suggest checking into a hotel in Dusseldorf
which is only 20 km north by train (station next to Koln Cathedral) In
Dusseldorf no one should miss Zum Urige on a pleasant weekend evening. The
street outside closes for drinking and inside several rooms are packed with
young and old. Bring some bottles back to compare with US alts like Otter
Creek. Both are good but very different from each other. Zum Schlussel is
good and Im Fuchschen has excellent food. In both towns putting your coaster
on top of your glass prevents the servers from automatically putting down
another round. Don't make the mistake of telling anyone in either town that
you like the other city's style better. I stayed with and was taken round by
a family that lived between Dusseldorf and Koln and had roots in both towns.
It sounds as if I lifted my comments from Michael Jackson's Beer Companion,
but without his prompting the family took me to these their favorite places
and generally agreed with his guidance when I showed them the book the next
morning. I think there is a beer festival in August/September in the
Dusseldorf/Koln area.

In London, buy a CAMRA Good Beer Guide in any book store and follow their
recommendations. Also check www.camra.org for any beer festivals that might
be happening in the city or near London. Olympia has just passed and may
cast a bit of an event shadow but a CAMRA beer festival mustn't be missed.


Brussels anyone?

Bruce Garner



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:19:35 -0500
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Want to buy Filter

I am interested in buying a Marcon, Carosello, 5 plate pressurized filter
system. If anyone has one for sale please email.

Bruce



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:32:07 -0400
From: Ken Miller <kgmiller at vignette.com>
Subject: Books on growing hops

I planned two cascade rhizomes this spring and never expected to see hop
cones until next year.  Well, there are plenty of them growing on one plant
and I've got another month of growing season left.  This has caught me a
little unprepared.  

I need some simple advice on when to pick, how to dry, and how to prepare
the plants for the winter.

If anyone can recommend a good book on growing hops, that would help prevent
these questions in the future.

Thanks,
Ken


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:43:52 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix at vt.edu>
Subject: Brewpots/FWH/and Yeast Starters

Hey ya'll....just got back into the fray of actually READING my HBD emails
rather than just storing them in a directory and forgetting about them.
After reading todays HBD, I have several questions....see I like to group
them together to save valuable time (NOT).

1.  After reading the posts on cleaning SS brepots, I have a different
question.  I recently started using a propane burner (yes...no more kitchen
B.S.) and brewing outside in the summer air....(jamming to good tunes and
drinking beer outside whilst brewing kicks a$$).  While brewing recently, I
had a conversation with my assistant and budding homebrewer about measuring
volumes, something that has ever been a difficulty for me.  Knowing how
much wort is in the kettle is pain.  We decided we would add 5.5 gals of
water to the kettle and mark it.  I tried to put a dent in the kettle,
which is an aluminum enameled pot, the cajun cooker kind.  Anyway, the damn
thing chipped both outside AND inside.  I know people don't like to use
bare aluminum, but should I worry about this small piece of exposed
aluminum???

2.  First Wort Hopping.....How does everyone do this.  I know I have read
other posts and in the archives, but do you add pellets, leaf, plugs (??)
to the kettle while draining off during the sparge and then the hops are in
for the whole boil??  How does FWH differ from say putting the hops in the
mash??

3.  Although I have been brewing since 1993, I only do a few batches a year
(it seems to come in spurts).  In this time, I have NEVER done a yeast
starter.  I've also never had any problems with NOT doing so.  However, I
can't help but feel like I am missing out on somethine.  It's always just
seemed like one more area to make mistakes.  Any thoughts on this??  My
next batch, I intend to do a starter...any info or quick tips/steps in the
process would be appreciated.


Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix at vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:58:45 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Mash temps and enzyme activity

I've been lurking on the HBD for about five months and brewing for twelve
years.  I recently made the jump to all grain.  I'm using a Phil type system
from Williams to do simple infusion mashing.  This system uses a plastic
bucket fitted with a false bottom and comes with an insulated jacket to
maintain temperature throughout the mash.  I understand that different
enzymes work best at various temps in the 142-155 degree F range.  What I
would like to konw is whether the enzymes that are active at lower end of
the range are destroyed at the high end of the range.  In other words, is it
possible to do a reverse step mash where I start mashing at say, 154 degrees
and then let the temperature drop naturally to around 144? 

Thanks,
Doug Hurst


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:12:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing yeast

hi,

how are you planning on freezing the yeast? ie, what temperature and
how will you get the yeast to that temperature?

if you only have a normal household freezer (as opposed to a -80 deg C
freezer) the yeast may not last that long as household freezers are
usually around -20 deg C. you especially need to avoid self defrosting
freezers as they cycle temperatures up and down to prevent frost
formation. this is a sure way to kill cells.


here's a reasonable method that should work for you. i'm making this
up as i go based on my lab experience (13 yrs now)...

grow some yeast under ideal conditions (not beer making conditions).
be sure to provide plenty of aeration and nutrients. while the yeast
are still actively growing (before they have used all of the
nutrients). put them in the fridge and allow them to settle to the
bottom of the flask or whatever container you're using.

pour off the supernatant. you will lose some yeast which isn't a big
deal. 

add sterile glycerol to ~40-50 % vol/vol. an equal volume is probably
fine. don't store the cells in the glycerol solution too long before
freezing. it's a very osmotically stressful environment so freeze them
right away.

put the yeast/glycerol mixture in a container suitable for freezing.
you need to have a container that seals very well (to prevent
sublimation during storage) and won't crack.

next, you need to freeze the cells quickly. simply putting them in the
freezer is a bad idea and will likely reduce cell viability. what you
should get is some dry ice (solid CO2). crush this to a fine powder
using a hammer and put the container into it.

oh, the container for the yeast should be small, like a couple of mLs
or so. you want the solution to freeze rapidly so crystals are not
formed as these will pierce the cells and thus kill the yeast. the
glycerol is supposed to help with this too.

in the lab i do something quite similar. however, i use a final
concentration of 15% glycerol and store the cells in our -80 deg C
freezer. also, i am able to make very concentrated yeast slurries as
we have centrifuges and sterile equipment.

good luck!

 -patrick in Toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		      http://www.finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:57:38 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: re: Who creates laws anyway?

John Schnupp whines...

>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:23:17 -0700
>From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
>Subject: Who creates laws anyway?

>and Bill Babbles:
>>It seems everyone making
>>our laws today is a member of some religious group, and all are
>>making moves on our freedoms, from the continual and still ongoing
>>onslaught against tobacco, to backing down the legal DUI blood alcohol
>>to .08 througout the US, using highway tax dollars, etc.  (Check the
>>current stories on RealBeer.com) I don't care to have my laws made
>>based on somebody else's religious beliefs.

>WELL, here's one solution: If you don't vote, don't bitch.

>If you were elected, wouldn't the laws you create be based on your
>"beliefs"?  And wouldn't you have gotten elected in the first place
>because you got enough people who had similar "beliefs" to vote for
>you?

>John Schnupp, N3CNL
>Dirty Laundry Homebrewery
>Georgia, VT
>95 XLH 1200

NO John, when a representative is elected, he or she is supposed to
vote in a way that represents the interests and desires of the majority
of the people he or she represents, and NOT according to his or her
own beliefs.  Did they not teach you politics in school?!


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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <Rama.Roberts at Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: re: good mail order stores?

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for the tons of responses and advice I 
received! You've more than given me a good start in the right direction.

>I'm sure you've looked.  What about local homebrewers?  BTW, where
>are you located? Sorry Jeff, looks like I'm taking over your job.

I checked Yahoo yellow pages for shops near my address (I live in the San 
Francisco bay area), but nothing was listed near me. Turns out William's 
Brewing (one of the many suggestions I got in reply to my question) is in San 
Leandro, CA- which isn't terribly far. It wasn't listed in Yahoo at all! 
I'm going to make an effort to support the local guy and get my gear and 
ingredients from them. 

In case anyone's interested, here's a summary of sites people forwarded me, the 
top group being the most popular, meaning more than one person recommended 
them:

http://www.stpats.com
http://www.Grapeandgranary.com
http://www.williamsbrewing.com

http://www.hoptech.com
http://www.freshops.com/
http://heartshomebrew.com/home_3.html
http://www.homebrewing.org/
http://www.bobbrews.com
http://www.mdhb.com/
http://vintagecellar.com/vintage/
http://www.ebrew.com

general info:
http://beer.about.com/hobbies/beer/mbody.htm



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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:16:09 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Peaches and Politics with beer

J. Palmer says,

Everyone knows that you don't discuss religion and politics
at dinner. Right?

Well John, I guess that depends. I think a stimulating discussing over dinner 
should include some decent, well thought out argument over politics and 
religion, or whatever comes up. What else is all that togetherness for? 
Besides, that's how the best food fights start. Anything less would be 
dreadfully boring. 

Speaking of brewing, I just got some fresh peaches from the local orchard. 
Eighteen pounds are blurping their way into becoming 6 gallons of wine, and 
ten pounds are about to become a peach ale. 

I've got a light body brown ale almost finished in the primary, and then I'll 
pour it onto the ten pounds of mashed peaches. If you ask the orchard manager 
for the small or unsaleable peaches they are cheap. I paid about 55 cents a 
pound. 

yum.

Best Brewing, 

Alan Talman
 

 





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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:57:17 +0930
From: Darren <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Adelaide Hills Homebrew club

Does anyone know who I would contact regarding meeting times etc?
Thanks
Darren


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---