---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: a hot rackin', double boilin', spice dissin', hop mixin', lager pitchin', wort hoppin' mess o' gabbin' ("Brian Lundeen")
  Brussels Beer (mohrstrom)
  ayinger (Charles Preston)
  Specialty grains (Aaron Perry)
  Re: Good Mail order shops online (SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
  hey crazy fridge guy.. (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Re: One For The Aussies (David Lamotte)
  Survivor, Hops et. al. ("R&P Aceto")
  Re: paranoid about bacteria ("Warren White")
  Whirlpooling Hot Wort (Steve Lacey)
  Why aerate? (Smith Asylum)
  re: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria... ("Seog Lee")
  Kit beers (Edward Doernberg)
  grains & yeast (Brad McMahon)
  The Word down under (Brad McMahon)
  HBD description circa 1787/To good to be trub?/decoction ("Stephen Alexander")
  mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
  Bad Advice ("Houseman, David L")
  Potential Gravity in ProMash (Jeffrey Donovan)
  More hot bacteria... (Jesse Stricker)
  I'm no expurt...but..ppp/g (Aaron Perry)
  What was i thinking? ("R&P Aceto")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:51:03 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: a hot rackin', double boilin', spice dissin', hop mixin', lager pitchin', wort hoppin' mess o' gabbin'

And to my subject line, might a add a hearty "Yee-haw".

Bob Shotola makes me thankful I never read Papazian with this bit of advice
from Chuck:

> Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot
> break trub from
> the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged
> with a copper
> scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang
> wort for a short
> time to resanitize.

Bob, you have many questions but I think they can all be answered with a
simple: ignore Papazian. As I said, I've never read him, so I can't comment
on his rationale, but I've never heard of a homebrewer doing this. (Watch,
just because I said that...) Cool the wort, rack off trub into fermenter.

Stephen Alexander talks about balance in recipes, but before I get to that I
really must comment on:

 You might be able to
> balance flavors in
> a sauce of tomato, ginger and mint - and tho complex I doubt it could
> ever be wonderful.
>
Well, throw in some coriander (and use ground ginger spice) and it sounds a
lot like what goes in a middle eastern (or is it North African?) vegetable
stew that I make. It tastes way better than it sounds, although you need a
light touch with the mint which can be a very dominating herb if you let it.
Root veggies and squashes work best, serve over couscous with a light
sprinkling of raisins and pine nuts. Sliced olives are optional.

On to the beer stuff:
> I've good friend who is far better than I with recipe
> formulation.  I don't
> mean to give away Mark's edge - but he always uses three
> different hops, as
> I dimly recall  two in balance, one in background.  More is a
> waste, tho'
> fewer can make a great beer too.

Not quite following you here. Is the one in background referring to a
bittering hop, or a less dominant character hop? What constitutes a balance
between two hop varieties? Is it that their characteristics are meshing, as
perhaps a Saaz-Tettnang pairing might, or are you talking about something
else?

John Adsit says of Wyeast pitchables:

I used a fresh bottle (10 days old) of Bohemian Pilsner
> for a CAP I made this past Saturday.  I pitched at 5:00 PM,
> and, as per
> instructions, left it at around 75 degrees until I saw visible
> fermentation.  I spaced out checking it before going to bed,
> but it was
> going full throttle by 8:00 the next morning, at which time I
> put it in
> the fridge.

Not to be critical, you make beer to suit your tastes, but I don't think
this approach yields the best lagers (or even ales) and so is not a good
indication of the lag times to expect from the pitchable tubes. Most esters
are formed during the growth phase, and by leaving a lager yeast at 75F for
15 hours, plus the time it takes for the fridge to bring it down to normal
lager fermentation temps, I would have to say that the yeast will have
produced too many esters for a true lager flavour. You also run the risk of
crash chilling the yeast into dormancy by a sudden drop from 75 to 55-ish
and if memory serves me correctly, Wyeast Bohemian is one yeast that is
particularly fussy in that regard. The nice thing (to me) about the
pitchable tubes, is that you can easily have the yeast and the wort at
proper fermentation temp when you pitch. With a smack pack and starter, the
starter at some point will have to be slowly dropped to ferm temp to avoid
the chill-shock problem.

Andrew Nix asks of first wort hopping:

> 2.  First Wort Hopping.....How does everyone do this.  I know
> I have read
> other posts and in the archives, but do you add pellets,
> leaf, plugs (??)
> to the kettle while draining off during the sparge and then
> the hops are in
> for the whole boil??  How does FWH differ from say putting
> the hops in the
> mash??
>
To start with, everyone doesn't do this. ;-) But those of us who DO first
wort hop, do exactly as you describe. Throw the hops in the kettle as
lautering is begun, and leave in for the boil. The theory is:

Improved hop character and smoother bittering. Your first wort hops will be
of a good flavour/aroma variety and hence, will likely not have high alpha
acids, and so will not add excessively to the total IBU. But don't adjust
your bittering hops down. Let the wort have the additional IBU from the FWH,
the extra bitterness will not seem too much because the overall bittering
quality will be better. Perhaps it's like the accepted winemaking belief
that fermenting in oak will make for better integration of the oak acquired
when it is aged in barrel. That's the theory, anyway. No 'spurments or
triangle tastings done here.

Mash hopping is reported by our good friends at Paddock Wood to impart
similar character, but you are not getting a full dose of these hop's IBU's
because they don't make it into the kettle. They estimate 10% of what FWH
would yield for IBU.

By the way, does including this many topics make for a complex posting, or
just one that's muddy? ;-)

Brian



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:50:20 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com
Subject: Brussels Beer

Bruce Garner offers a fine tour of German beer culture to the anonymous
"FatCat" (who even deprives us of Rennerarian coordinates!  Still, I envy
him (her? -- see *that's* why we use our "real" names ...); and asks,
"Brussels anyone?"

After choking down my bitter jealousy, I offer the following:

Not knowing how much of the four days will actually be available for
consumption and travel, I would suggest spending time first near and around
the Grande Place.  The Brewer's Museum is located there (Say "Hi" to St.
Arnoud for me ...)  Just to the south (this is all from memory) of the
square is a neat store named "Bier Tempel", offering a variety of
Breweriana.  Then, to the west(?), is the Morte Subite cafe (although I
don't believe there is still on-premise brewing any longer).  Keep your
sense of direction, since the old narrow streets wind a bit.

If you are there on Friday or Saturday evening, the Falstaff, near the
Bourse, offers a three course dinner with various items cooked with beer,
including terrine of rabbit, a framboise-sauced chicken breast, and a kriek
sorbet.  The Falstaff is not the finest of restaurants, but is popular and
reasonably priced (or, are you on an expense-account trip?) -- Brussels can
be expensive.

Certainly, a trip to the Cantillion brewery is in order.  There are only
two public brewings each year, but guided tours (segregated by language)
are scheduled, and self-guided tours available at other times.  It's a few
blocks from the nearest Metro, but there may be bus service to a closer
point.

Stop by cafes in between your primary spots, and have a beer amongst the
locals (great excuse for a WC stop, too.)  They will offer selections from
their primary supplier (basically, a tied-house system), so you may have to
visit several to fill out your beer tour (shucky-darn ...)

If time and transport allow, a field trip could be made to one of the
outlying areas.  Perhaps a look at MJ's Beers of Belgium, or a little web
research, would be helpful in choosing where to go.

Have Fun (and check a map)!

Mark (wondering if it's an election year) in Kalamazoo





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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Preston <cp1811 at yahoo.com>
Subject: ayinger

   Could I beg, borrow, buy a slant of ayinger lager
yeast from someone? I have tried to contact the
Michigan lab people 4 times, and can't seem to get an
answer.  No longer (Prestoniam  at aol.com)  Charlie in
Mansfield, Ohio


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:54:15 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: Specialty grains

I  have been reading the specialty grain debate for a bit. I was marveling
over the coincidence that I was recently considering brewing a batch with "way
more than the norm" amount of specialty malt. my reason was to try and get
that mega caramel flavor that I find in some local micros. I've tried using
all kinds of crystal malt, in moderation, just haven't hit it. But, just as I
was about to move the formulations from my head to paper, the minimalists pipe
up with their "less is more" propaganda! Now what do I do?! After some cold
sweats, hand wringing and corner sitting, I decided to read the latest issue
of BYO (not so popular, but sometimes helpful or amusing). anyway, They have
an interview with John Maier, HB at Rogue. His advice came in 5 tips. Guess
what tip #1 was...
"Use different kinds of specialty malt...and lots of it!". So there!
the article  goes on to say that Rogue typically uses 4 or more different
malts and sometimes specialty grains make up more than 40% of the grain bill!!!!

I'm so confused!! It's worse than left or right...heathens or super religious!
Yanks vs. Aussie! Its about our BEER!! 

I love Rogue ales and I'll bet I'm not alone! Sooo, let's load up on the
specialty's kids and make some great beer! 

AP
Toweling off and leaving the corner.
I have no affiliation with BYO, or Rogue although I'd relocate to work there!
Hell, I'd probably spew, bostonian definition


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:53:08 -0400
From: "FC1(SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Good Mail order shops online

I ahjve never bought grain or malt on line preferring instead to frequent my
local HB shops and brewpub.  I have howerver ordered hops from
www.freshops.com and been very satisfied.  I also order some equipment from
Northern Brewer and yeast from Hearts Homebrew.  Satisfied with the results
from all three places and no problems.

Mike Pensinger
Beermaker at mad.scientist.com


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:03:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at aus.sun.com>
Subject: hey crazy fridge guy..



HEY Crazy fridge guy,

i have inherited a huge fridge, and i dont think its healthy.

It runs, but no matter at what setting it does not cool,
runs at the same temp (20 c flat)

i am thinking the thermostat is dead. would also regassing be the go??

all matter of replies welcome. esp from those folks that used to live
in Sydney, but moved to the southern highlands
just like the rest of "them"......whats good is a place if there is no
surf beaches within 10 minutes drive...hmmm...how can one live??

scotty
recently self-relegated to nymph stage




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:25:17 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: One For The Aussies

My good mate Phil Yates was chatting about my other good mate Steve
Lacey's question on the metric equivalent of "pts per pound".  You see
we are all good mates down under.

Now Phil didn't know if Steve was asking about extraction efficiency or
potential extract, and neither do I.

But I have read that a standard (metric) approach is to perform a
standard mash under laboratory conditions (called a congress mash) and
express the extract obtained as a percentage of the dry weight of
grain.  This usually gives a figure of 75-80%.  

Now the beauty of the metric system is that you can just take 1 kg of
grain (with an extract potential of say 75%) and when mashed with the
standard thickness of 3 liters water/Kg grain gives you an extract
potential of 25%.  i.e. there is 750 grams of extract dissolved in the
water that is not absorbed by the grain.

I believe that a good rule of thumb is that mashing a kilo of grain at
3l/kg will produce a wort at 20% (which is much the same as 20 degrees
Plato).  Sparging this with the same volume of water, dilutes it to 10
Plato.  After a 10% reduction in volume during the boil this increases
to 11P (or 1.044) which is about my standard gravity.

Despite having access to Promash, and my own recipe formulation program
(which like most of my brewing projects is unfinished) I do most of my
calculations in my head using these figures.

So, in answer to Steve's question, Points/Quart/Pound seem to be a term
mainly used in the US for published data for US grains.  While they
could be converted to a metric equivalent (points/litre/kilo) there is
not much point.


David Lamotte
Brewing in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia, where we ponder

If the "black box" flight recorder is never damaged during a plane
crash, why isn't the whole plane made of that stuff?


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:21:15 -0400
From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net>
Subject: Survivor, Hops et. al.

Greetings-
I do not know if this has been spoken of here before, but i thought it
interesting after watching Survivor tonight (per my wifes choice) to think
about the next series, which will be filmed in Australia.  What do our
friends from accross the pond think about all the comotion first the
olympics and now this stupid show...  I know little about the country, but
an island in the south china sea sounds like a picnic compared to what i
have heard about where they are sending this next group...

On hops, (i sound like Gibran) I grew Cascade as well until i had to move
and i too had hops year one on.  I found that a brief stint ( a day or so)
air drying and then into a dehydrator on its lowest setting worked best.  I
also tried to pick the cones when they were full but also not brown and
tough.  I would also wait until the yellow dust at the base of each leaf was
at its highest level.  I had a ton of fun, but they were VERY invasive.  As
for wintering them over all i would do is mound up some mulch over them in
the fall after cutting them back after they have turned brown, and forget
about them until spring.  Then i would go out and find the new white shoots
that you can eat ( and i did) the same as asparegas (sp?).  Enjoy!

Once again thanks for the help with the imperial stout ideas, it is still
bubbling away.  my fear now is that it will be to astringent in taste and
that, that will mask some of the other flavors, (ie Maple).

Tight lines,

Russ A.

(caught a 5# Largemouth the other day in a small VT lake, quite a thrill.)




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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:52:59 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: paranoid about bacteria

Casey C. wrote recently about the worries of bacteria from sucking on a 
syphon hose...
A method I've used without any worries is cutting off about 2 inches of 
slightly larger diameter hose heating it in boiling water and forcing it 
over the end of the syphon hose I am about to suck on.
Once you've got the syphon flowing pinch the main hose and remove the larger 
hose off the end... viola! Your mouth hasn't touched your main hose (sounds 
obscene doesn't it) and no more mental stress! It's easier than syphoning 
your python!! (an old Australian colloquialism)
Also don't worry about the stuff you see on the surface in your carboy, some 
yeast strains seem to leave remnants on the surface on the odd occasion, 
it's very unlikely to be bacteria.

Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia
Where men are men and pythons are syphoned!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:05:27 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Whirlpooling Hot Wort

Anybody reading both our posts in last HBD will notice that Jay Spies and I
are in contradiction with our advice to Bob Shatola about handling his
boiled wort. I said "whirlpool the hot wort", Jay said "don't, whatever you
do, whirlpool the hot wort."

So, how are we going to resolve this without getting the fur flying? Well,
let me clarify by saying that whilst I am conscious of the potential for
HSA, I am not anal about it. So, what I do is whirlpool by getting the mass
of wort moving slowly at first and then gradually building up speed. The
idea being to minimise surface breaking by the stirring implement. I do not
siphon until the wort has come to a rest and settled for some time. I
*believe* this will minimise HSA, but don't completely dismiss the
possibility that this practice is not good for my beer. Time will tell and
Bob will have to make up his own mind about whose advice he is going to
take.

Steve Lacey
PS. I note that some of my sentences seemed nonsensical because HBD chopped
off some lines that must have been too long. I'll attempt to avoid this in
future.


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:21:47 -0700
From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com>
Subject: Why aerate?

I have seen in print and been told by knowledgeable people that after
transferring the wort to the primary fermentation vessel that I should
stir it or shake it to aerate prior to fermentation.  Then when
transferring to a secondary or filling bottles I read and heard that
aeration is bad for the beer (final product).  Is there a hard and fast
rule or do conditional statements apply?

Thanks from the newbie,

Lee Smith
Chandler, AZ


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:35:29 -0700
From: "Seog Lee" <seoglee at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria...

>While siphoning into the secondary glass carboy, on both batches,
>I couldn't help using my mouth.

You're are just being paranoid about it.
I've done it many times my self and didn't have any problems, but I
normally rinse my mouth out with vodka before hand.  If it was 
going into the primary, I'd be a little worried, but in the 
secondary, it has a lot of factors that protect it from a slight bit
of neglect, e.g. low pH, anaerobic environment, alcohol, lower 
nutrient levels.

If you're still concerned about it, get a properly sanitized wine
thief and grab a sample.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:06:38 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: Kit beers


Warren White complains about the quality of kit beers.

My first few batches where made from kits deviation from the instructions
only in that I used dextrose instead of cane sugar (I also used the optional
hydrometer). 

The coopers kits I have seen recommend using dextrose and I have seen kits
that even suggests that you use a tin of unhoped extract (naturally they
recommend there brand) only thay forgot to say if you do this you need
additional hops. 

And as much as I hate to say it the beer these kits make is not bad. To the
extent that I preferred my first kit beer to some of the mid priced
commercial beers.

I have herd of only one person that had a disaster home brewing and didn't
try it again and they had such a bad case of bottle bombs I don't think they
even tasted it (I suspect something as simple as premature bottling).

Kit beers are far from perfect but they aren't all that bad.

Edward



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:37:27 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: grains & yeast

Pete Czerpak wrote:

>I tend to fly with my brews quite regularly.

So do I after a few dopplebocks!

>The poor australians..  we can surely ship some of those crazy grain
>varietys down there for them to aid in "complexity". 

Hmm, it might have to be in a commercially sealed
bag and may have to come with a quarantine cerificate
 - I'm not sure. 
AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) and
Customs are extremely serious about importation of any food
or plant material into Australia as any of you that have 
visited Australia can attest to.
The cost of shipping grains is prohibitive as well unless
you are importing very large quantities, which you would
find difficult to sell. Mash brewers are not a big market
force here.
I would rather make specialty grains in my oven - much easier.

>any hope of getting that Ayinger yeast up to the US to WhiteLab or Wyeast
>for propogating and distribution?

I'm sure Aying Brewery yeast is available to you guys.
I can't remember who has it, possibly Yeast Culturing Kit Company
or Brewtek? I think YCKC is the company that has many strains in
their bank but does not advertise them all.
If you have difficulties tracking it down, I'm sure Phil, Graham
or myself can play "swappies" with you.

All the best,
Brad McMahon
Aldgate, South Australia


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:12:36 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: The Word down under

Warren White wrote:
>I can always remember telling people yeah I homebrew, it would always be 
>met  with the same answer... I've got a friend, who has a friend who tried 
>homebrew and he told me that it tastes like shit!

Which is why I tell people I "brew beer" or I "make beer" and I don't
make "homebrew".

> As much as Charlie P. gives us some misleading information

Actually he gives very little bad information and his books
have stood the test of time. The only one thing I can think of
is his use of those horrible glass carboys as primary fermenters.
Luckily they are as rare as hens teeth down here. 

> You tend to always find the stereotype in your supermarket who buys his 
> two cans of Wander Draught or Coopers Lager, his bags of sugar and hopes 
> like shit he can produce a batch for under ten dollars.
> It's this type of guy who personally attaches the bad stigma to 
> homebrewing.

I know the type well. Have a chat to your local homebrew shop owner
about the supermarket brewers who come into their stores. They
usually come in because Woolworths have run out of something.
They always beat their chests and say "Ah've been a brewer fer
twenny years and you don't need all this junk (waving furiously
at the shelves) ta make great beer. Ya know what ma secret is??
BROWN sugar. Ma dentist gave me that tip and it makes all tha
difference!"
Oooh I hate those meeces to pieces!
I'm quite happy to tell them that, no, they haven't been 
brewing for 20 years, they made a kit ONCE and repeated
themselves for 20 years; and no, you are not a brewer
any more than I'm a chef when I reheat a frozen dinner
in the microwave!

Sorry if I sound elitist but if you are going to bestow
a title on yourself you have better done something to earn it.
Phew! [rant mode off!]

>Long live all the homebrewing stores for giving the craft some 
>much-deserved dignity, respect and steering brewers in the right direction.

HOORAY!!
Although there are quite a few shops out there who are there to make a
sale
and don't care about brewers at all - may they rot in hell.
Here's to all the good ones!
CHEERS!

Brad McMahon
Aldgate, South Australia


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:40:44 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: HBD description circa 1787/To good to be trub?/decoction

Mark says ...

>Actually, that's exactly what democracy is, i.e., mob rule (note #4).

I agree with Mark that a pure democracy is majority/mob rule, but

>       5. The principles of social equality and respect for the
>          individual within a community.

hints at the tempered democracy suggested by deTocqueville. I should have
probably described this at greater length (right !).  TNX Mark.

Madison accurately describe much about HBD in 1787 ...

> The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man;
> [...] A zeal for different opinions concerning [...] many other points,
> as well of speculation as of practice; [...] , have, in
> turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual
>animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress
> each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is
> this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that
> where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous
> and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their
> unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

== == ==

Bob S asks ...

>Chas. Papazian recommends ...

Uhhh - read Papazian once, cut an inch off one of your kitchen table legs
and place the book there to prevent future reference.  Then point your
browser at: http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html    John Palmer's
excellent work and also to http://www.brewery.org/brewery/Library.html where
you will find a plethora of articles on every aspect of brewing.
Somewhere (hopefully in one of the above) John Palmer also had a nice
article on sanitization.

Don't do this reboil thing - too complicated, no gain.  Understand that your
beer is infected from the get-go.  The malt is covered with bacteria and the
wyeast packs are not free of infection either, and unless you autoclave your
fermenter and prevent all access to ambient air you have another source of
infection.

Your beers salvation is in keeping things as clean as *reasonably* possible
then pitching a healthy amount of vigorous yeast.  The yeast drop the wort
pH quite quickly and remove the simplest sugars and O2 and together this
discourages the majority of infections and in any case reduces their
growth..  There are a few bugs that can almost match yeast growth under
brewing conditions (like wild yeast and petite mutants) and if these become
prevalent you'll need to start with new yeast.

My advise is to mechanically clean and sanitize all the stuff that will
touch your post-boil wort.  I find that 20' in iodophor does the sanitizing
job - *but* carefully clean and sanitize the stuff after use too.  It's
impossible to clean things covered with moldy wort from the past session.

For the metal racking cane + scrubby and the immersion chiller.  It makes
sense to place these (pre-cleaned) right into the boiling wort.  The heat
handles most residual infection.

>1) What happens in the meantime to the concept of the last minute steeping
of
>aroma hops? Should I hold those off for the reboil? Egad.
>
>2) Can I, with sanitized tools and putting down homebrew, carefully
whirlpool
>and siphon AFTER immersion chilling, or will God in his infinite wisdom
>strike my beer down dead with every variety of microbe in Yamhill County?

I'd suggest this.  Put the cleaned hardware in the pot at T-15' or so, time
the last hops additions after the boil returns and then at knock-out time
turn on the immersion chiller water and turn off the heat.  Once it's cool
you can whirlpool and siphon to the fermenter.

The scrubbies are not fine enough to prevent cold break and a lot of hot
break from getting through, and whirlpooling is only partly effective.  Some
pellet hops bis  get thru too, but whole cones may actually filter.  Bottom
line - you will have a certain amount of gunk in your fermentor.  This gunk
is mostly good for yeast growth but *possibly* bad for beer flavor & head.
The alternatives are to 1/ allow it to settle well in a vessel, like a
carboy, and then siphon off;  2/ to live with it if the amount isn't too
much, or 3/ to pitch the yeast and then leave the gunk behind by moving the
beer to a secondary fermenter in 2-3 days.  Solutions 2/ and 3/ are
preferred until and unless you understand your breweries potential for
infection w/ solution 1/.

If you'd like to assess your processes potential for infection, half fill a
small sanitized container with unpitched cooled wort (right from the siphon)
and seal.  Keep it in a warm place and check it for signs of life every 12
hours.  If you can make it to three days you have a pretty clean process.
When you do see signs (cloudiness, surface growth, lid popping gas
generation - then take a sniff and taste and meet and observe a likely
infection foe.  This nice method was in part suggested by G.Fix in AoBT.

>3) How does one get the five gallons of cooled wort from the pot to the
>carboy?

Siphon - it's good training for those unliftable 15gal batches and is
preferable re infection to pouring wort thru the air. Less spillage risk
too.  Don't get too jiggy with those 5gal carboys either.  They are liftable
when full, but it's dangerous - esp with wet hands.  Use a cradle and a neck
handle.   Two hands at all times.

==
Decoction:

Graham Sanders correctly takes Louis Bonham to task for stepping about 1
micron over the line
saying
>there is nothing that amateur brewers can get
>from decoction mashing that you can't also get from step infusion mashing
>and recipe formulation

If you'd make that "almost nothing" it would be indisputable,  Kunze
(somewhere can't find it) makes a similar statement about decoction not
being much practiced due to extra time and energy usage and the fact that
very similar beers can be made by adjusting the grist bill.

I think a lot of folks believe decoction will significantly improve their
good recipes to the point of excellence - it won't.  As Graham suggests it's
a rather small incremental improvement.  It *may* give your beer a very
small edge, but even that is arguable.

 -S





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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:42:09 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash hopping

Pete Czerpak has touched on my favorite topic--mash
hopping.  I'm fairly evangelical about this, as all of my
beers over the past eight months have been mash hopped and
I've never been brewing better beer.  The flavor of mash
hopping, IMHO, is far superior to anything you'll get from a
late hop addition or FWH.  I use pellets all the time and
there's no problem whatsoever.  On Tuesday I brewed up a big
IPA with four ounces of E. Kent Goldings in the mash.  Ran
smooth as silk and tastes magically delicious going into the
ferment.

I usually add 25% more hops to the mash than the TOTAL late
hop additions for a normal beer.  Keep the bittering hop
level the same.  As for IBU calculations, I treat the mash
hopping as a charge at 10 minutes before knock-out.  Seems
to be spot on in terms of perceived bitterness.

In addition to the pleasant flavors associated with mash
hopping, I've noticed an improved hot break, higher
efficiency, and clearer runoff from the mash.  For my last
IPA I was able to see the bottom of the kettle when it had 7
gallons of wort in it.  It also reduces the amount of
"splooge" in the bottom of the kettle after the boil.  For
my IPA, instead of five ounces of hop pellets in the bottom
sucking up my precious beer, I only had to avoid the huge
pile of hot break and an ounce of Magnum pellets.

I'm sure there will be people that are certain that I'm full
of crap.  To this I say--TRY IT.  I've convinced a great
number of brewers to try it once; most of them appear to be
making it part of the regular brewday.  I'm going to lay
virtual hands on the entire HBD and ask that you all try it
on your next batch and report back.  You, too, will join my
cult.  It can't be stopped.  ;-p

Just remember-- First wort hopping is for sissies!

Marc
mash hopping the hell out of Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:02:42 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Bad Advice

Jay Spies gives the following bad advice:

"Bob Sotola asks in HBD #3405 about advice given by the mysterious and
rarely
seen Charlie Pap, who quotes thusly:

>>>Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot break trub
from the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged with a
copper scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang wort for
a short time to resanitize.<<<

Once again, Charlie's stellar advice falls prey to common sense.  Bob, do
yourself a favor and take anything CP says with a pound or two of salt...
When the wort is still hot, do not whirlpool and do not siphon.  Hot wort is
highly susceptible to O2 uptake caused by vigorous stirring and/or
siphoning.  Use kid gloves on the wort until it has reached at least under
100 degrees, and preferably around 70.  Then, I'd whirlpool and let the
trub/break/hop residue settle out to the bottom.  Once the wort has settled
for about 20 minutes to 30 minutes, *then* siphon into your fermenter, and
aerate away.

If you aerate the hot wort, you're likely to get a lot of O2 into it, which
can prematurely stale your beer.  If you're busily stirring and siphoning
it, I can almost guarantee that aeration will occur.  Also, do yourself a
favor and keep the lid on the cooled wort as you're waiting for the trub to
settle, and sanitize all of your siphoning and fermenting equipment well
(but you probably already knew that...)  There's absolutely no reason to
reboil anything as long as you sanitize your transfer tubing and fermenters
well, and minimize the cooled wort's exposure to the outside air.

Hope this helps.  Brew on, my man...

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD"

While I don't recommend aerating hot wort any more than any one else, the
fact is that a careful whirlpool, around the pot, without splashing,
particularly in the presence of the layer of steam that is over a just
boiling pot, will NOT cause any problems.  I and many brewers to this on a
regular basis WITHOUT picking up oxygen, at least at any levels that cause
problems.  And the comments about not siphoning is bizarre at best.  I
presume that if one is siphoning hot wort it is to move it through a
counter-flow chiller; there wouldn't me much other reason to siphon hot
wort.  Siphoning doesn't aerate the wort AT ALL.  If one siphons and then
let's the hot wort splash someplace, that is a problem, but not the
siphoning itself.  While commercial brewers don't siphon, they do whirlpool.
Whirlpooling itself is NOT a problem.  Just take care not to splash and
otherwise minimize surface disturbance.  But stirring the wort as fast as it
will go for a couple minutes, covering the pot and waiting 15 minutes will
collect the trub, hops and Irish moss in a nice mound in the center allowing
you to siphon from the edge of the pot.  In this case Charlie is right and
you'll want to save that salt for Jay.

David Houseman




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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 06:14:34 -0700
From: Jeffrey Donovan <jeffrey at promash.com>
Subject: Potential Gravity in ProMash

Hello fellow HBD'rs.....Have seen a few posts regarding the potential 
extract of grain and how this number is displayed/entered and I wanted to 
clear something up regarding this number within the ProMash software; 
ProMash will let you display/enter the potential gravity of any fermentable 
as either:

1) Specific Gravity per LBS.
2) Points per LBS.
3) Hot Water Extract

These are set within the system settings, measurements and sizes section. 
The Hot Water Extract rating is what the majority of Euro malsters use for 
the potential extract. We were requested by both users and Malsters to 
incorporate the HWE number, and while I know there are also other methods 
to determine potential extract this seems to have satisfied the majority of 
our European crowd.

We've been very careful to get the potential gravity correct in the malt 
databases, and in some cases the malsters have actually entered the data in 
for us, but if you have access to the numbers from your malt supplier, by 
all means you should edit them (or create new entries) to reflect the 
ratings. A point here and a point there can add up....

Cheers gang!




Jeffrey Donovan
The Sausalito Brewing Co.
ProMash and PilotBrew Software
jeffrey at promash.com
http://www.promash.com




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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:36:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: More hot bacteria...


	Getting slightly off-topic, but when the conversation moves to 
what you know... :)

> While the vast majority of know organisms can not survive the temperature
> and pressure of a functioning autoclave, at least one can. It is usually
> dangerous to make blanket statements about life and biology 'cause some
> smarmy post-doc always comes along and shows you something unexpected.
> Example: Pyrolobus Fumarii lives its entire life at 115C at enormous
> pressure. No one has ever tried to autoclave a colony of P. Fumarii as
> far as I know but they should survive if one is inclined to try. Of
> course they would not survive in your beer as they tend to freeze to
> death at temps below 70C.

	Blanket statements might be dangerous, but this (only somewhat
smarmy) graduate student knows about hyperthermophiles and says that any
properly functioning autoclave starts and ends its cycle below 70
degrees C and at 1 atmosphere pressure, as well as being an aerobic
environment.  All three of these things are lethal to most thermophiles. 

	Yeah, Aeropyrum pernix grows aerobically at 95C at one atmosphere. 
We've grown it in an oven in the lab.  It's a weird, weird organism. 
However, autoclaving kills it.  Must be the pressure.  I don't know, but I
suspect that it wouldn't survive in beer. 

	(Tongue firmly in cheek...)


Jeff Renner writes:

> One group of organisms, if they can be called that, that appears to be able
> to survive autoclaving, are prions.  These very simple infectious agents
> are the cause of mad cow disease, scrapie and Jacob-Kreuzfeld (sp?)
> disease.  Don't put any brain matter in your beer and you should be OK.

	Prions are just protein molecules that happen to warp other
protein molecules into a form similar to theirs.  I guess you can call
that reproduction, but I think that prions are more analogous to toxins
than organisms.  Like Jeff sez, keep your brains out of your beer and
you'll be OK.  (Note that prions are not my specialty, and if you manage
to get some prion-borne disease from your homebrew, I cannot be held
responsible :)

	On a slightly more relevant note, I've been freezing yeast for
several years.  I got the protocol from a friend in a yeast genetics lab. 
I freeze about half a milliliter of happy growing yeast in a milliliter of
22% glycerol that's been sterilized.  That's a final concentration of
close to 15%.  This works because I have got access to a -80C degree
freezer.  I've revived strains that have been frozen for up to three
years.  My yeast-studying friend says that he doubts that they would
survive too well in a normal freezer unless the freezer stayed below -20C
constantly (i.e. no defrosting), in which case you might get 3-6 months. 
If the glycerol's not frozen solid, then you're not cold enough. 

	When and if I ever leave bench science, I'll proably store my 
yeast under sterile water or buffer.  There was some discussion of this 
idea on the HBD a while back.

	Jesse (in Durham, NC, south and east of Jeff Renner somewhere)


- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu






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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:45:34 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: I'm no expurt...but..ppp/g

I'm no expurt...but..
I use the ppp/g like this: the max ppp/g for 2 row (as steve mentions promash
uses) is 38. at 88% extract efficiency I'd get 29 ppp/g. So when I'm
formulating a recipe I can figure each lb of malt I use contributes 29 pts. of
gravity in one US gal of water(that's ppp/g). So, I have say, 10 lbs of 2 row.
I multiply 10 * 29 = 290. That's for 1 gal. So, I divide by 5 gal.: 290 / 5 =
58 which translates to 1.058 for 10 lbs 2 row in 5 gal post boil volume. 

You big shots with your fancy pants metric system could substitute: points per
 .45 kilos per 3.79 liters. What a bunch of weirdos!:-)

hope this helps 
AP
disclaimer: I'm no expurt, but this method allows me to nail my target gravity
every time! The only reason I have to know this is 'cause Promash won't make a
MAC version!! They say use the virtual PC program, but my mac is too old!! Oh
well, pen and paper for now!


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:44:00 -0400
From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net>
Subject: What was i thinking?

Ok, in retrospect i feel like an idiot for my survivor email, however at the
time (quite late) i felt that we had spoken about a ton of other non beer
related threads, especially those about the US and Australia so why not
attempt to bring us all together.... anyway, flame away if you want, i will
just have to be judicious with my PgDn key.

Russ




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