HOMEBREW Digest #3407 Fri 18 August 2000

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  re: a hot rackin', double boilin', spice dissin', hop mixin', lager pitchin', wort hoppin' mess o' gabbin' ("Brian Lundeen")
  Brussels Beer (mohrstrom)
  ayinger (Charles Preston)
  Specialty grains (Aaron Perry)
  Re: Good Mail order shops online (SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
  hey crazy fridge guy.. (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Re: One For The Aussies (David Lamotte)
  Survivor, Hops et. al. ("R&P Aceto")
  Re: paranoid about bacteria ("Warren White")
  Whirlpooling Hot Wort (Steve Lacey)
  Why aerate? (Smith Asylum)
  re: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria... ("Seog Lee")
  Kit beers (Edward Doernberg)
  grains & yeast (Brad McMahon)
  The Word down under (Brad McMahon)
  HBD description circa 1787/To good to be trub?/decoction ("Stephen Alexander")
  mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
  Bad Advice ("Houseman, David L")
  Potential Gravity in ProMash (Jeffrey Donovan)
  More hot bacteria... (Jesse Stricker)
  I'm no expurt...but..ppp/g (Aaron Perry)
  What was i thinking? ("R&P Aceto")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:51:03 -0500 From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: re: a hot rackin', double boilin', spice dissin', hop mixin', lager pitchin', wort hoppin' mess o' gabbin' And to my subject line, might a add a hearty "Yee-haw". Bob Shotola makes me thankful I never read Papazian with this bit of advice from Chuck: > Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot > break trub from > the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged > with a copper > scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang > wort for a short > time to resanitize. Bob, you have many questions but I think they can all be answered with a simple: ignore Papazian. As I said, I've never read him, so I can't comment on his rationale, but I've never heard of a homebrewer doing this. (Watch, just because I said that...) Cool the wort, rack off trub into fermenter. Stephen Alexander talks about balance in recipes, but before I get to that I really must comment on: You might be able to > balance flavors in > a sauce of tomato, ginger and mint - and tho complex I doubt it could > ever be wonderful. > Well, throw in some coriander (and use ground ginger spice) and it sounds a lot like what goes in a middle eastern (or is it North African?) vegetable stew that I make. It tastes way better than it sounds, although you need a light touch with the mint which can be a very dominating herb if you let it. Root veggies and squashes work best, serve over couscous with a light sprinkling of raisins and pine nuts. Sliced olives are optional. On to the beer stuff: > I've good friend who is far better than I with recipe > formulation. I don't > mean to give away Mark's edge - but he always uses three > different hops, as > I dimly recall two in balance, one in background. More is a > waste, tho' > fewer can make a great beer too. Not quite following you here. Is the one in background referring to a bittering hop, or a less dominant character hop? What constitutes a balance between two hop varieties? Is it that their characteristics are meshing, as perhaps a Saaz-Tettnang pairing might, or are you talking about something else? John Adsit says of Wyeast pitchables: I used a fresh bottle (10 days old) of Bohemian Pilsner > for a CAP I made this past Saturday. I pitched at 5:00 PM, > and, as per > instructions, left it at around 75 degrees until I saw visible > fermentation. I spaced out checking it before going to bed, > but it was > going full throttle by 8:00 the next morning, at which time I > put it in > the fridge. Not to be critical, you make beer to suit your tastes, but I don't think this approach yields the best lagers (or even ales) and so is not a good indication of the lag times to expect from the pitchable tubes. Most esters are formed during the growth phase, and by leaving a lager yeast at 75F for 15 hours, plus the time it takes for the fridge to bring it down to normal lager fermentation temps, I would have to say that the yeast will have produced too many esters for a true lager flavour. You also run the risk of crash chilling the yeast into dormancy by a sudden drop from 75 to 55-ish and if memory serves me correctly, Wyeast Bohemian is one yeast that is particularly fussy in that regard. The nice thing (to me) about the pitchable tubes, is that you can easily have the yeast and the wort at proper fermentation temp when you pitch. With a smack pack and starter, the starter at some point will have to be slowly dropped to ferm temp to avoid the chill-shock problem. Andrew Nix asks of first wort hopping: > 2. First Wort Hopping.....How does everyone do this. I know > I have read > other posts and in the archives, but do you add pellets, > leaf, plugs (??) > to the kettle while draining off during the sparge and then > the hops are in > for the whole boil?? How does FWH differ from say putting > the hops in the > mash?? > To start with, everyone doesn't do this. ;-) But those of us who DO first wort hop, do exactly as you describe. Throw the hops in the kettle as lautering is begun, and leave in for the boil. The theory is: Improved hop character and smoother bittering. Your first wort hops will be of a good flavour/aroma variety and hence, will likely not have high alpha acids, and so will not add excessively to the total IBU. But don't adjust your bittering hops down. Let the wort have the additional IBU from the FWH, the extra bitterness will not seem too much because the overall bittering quality will be better. Perhaps it's like the accepted winemaking belief that fermenting in oak will make for better integration of the oak acquired when it is aged in barrel. That's the theory, anyway. No 'spurments or triangle tastings done here. Mash hopping is reported by our good friends at Paddock Wood to impart similar character, but you are not getting a full dose of these hop's IBU's because they don't make it into the kettle. They estimate 10% of what FWH would yield for IBU. By the way, does including this many topics make for a complex posting, or just one that's muddy? ;-) Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:50:20 -0400 From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com Subject: Brussels Beer Bruce Garner offers a fine tour of German beer culture to the anonymous "FatCat" (who even deprives us of Rennerarian coordinates! Still, I envy him (her? -- see *that's* why we use our "real" names ...); and asks, "Brussels anyone?" After choking down my bitter jealousy, I offer the following: Not knowing how much of the four days will actually be available for consumption and travel, I would suggest spending time first near and around the Grande Place. The Brewer's Museum is located there (Say "Hi" to St. Arnoud for me ...) Just to the south (this is all from memory) of the square is a neat store named "Bier Tempel", offering a variety of Breweriana. Then, to the west(?), is the Morte Subite cafe (although I don't believe there is still on-premise brewing any longer). Keep your sense of direction, since the old narrow streets wind a bit. If you are there on Friday or Saturday evening, the Falstaff, near the Bourse, offers a three course dinner with various items cooked with beer, including terrine of rabbit, a framboise-sauced chicken breast, and a kriek sorbet. The Falstaff is not the finest of restaurants, but is popular and reasonably priced (or, are you on an expense-account trip?) -- Brussels can be expensive. Certainly, a trip to the Cantillion brewery is in order. There are only two public brewings each year, but guided tours (segregated by language) are scheduled, and self-guided tours available at other times. It's a few blocks from the nearest Metro, but there may be bus service to a closer point. Stop by cafes in between your primary spots, and have a beer amongst the locals (great excuse for a WC stop, too.) They will offer selections from their primary supplier (basically, a tied-house system), so you may have to visit several to fill out your beer tour (shucky-darn ...) If time and transport allow, a field trip could be made to one of the outlying areas. Perhaps a look at MJ's Beers of Belgium, or a little web research, would be helpful in choosing where to go. Have Fun (and check a map)! Mark (wondering if it's an election year) in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Preston <cp1811 at yahoo.com> Subject: ayinger Could I beg, borrow, buy a slant of ayinger lager yeast from someone? I have tried to contact the Michigan lab people 4 times, and can't seem to get an answer. No longer (Prestoniam at aol.com) Charlie in Mansfield, Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:54:15 -0400 From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> Subject: Specialty grains I have been reading the specialty grain debate for a bit. I was marveling over the coincidence that I was recently considering brewing a batch with "way more than the norm" amount of specialty malt. my reason was to try and get that mega caramel flavor that I find in some local micros. I've tried using all kinds of crystal malt, in moderation, just haven't hit it. But, just as I was about to move the formulations from my head to paper, the minimalists pipe up with their "less is more" propaganda! Now what do I do?! After some cold sweats, hand wringing and corner sitting, I decided to read the latest issue of BYO (not so popular, but sometimes helpful or amusing). anyway, They have an interview with John Maier, HB at Rogue. His advice came in 5 tips. Guess what tip #1 was... "Use different kinds of specialty malt...and lots of it!". So there! the article goes on to say that Rogue typically uses 4 or more different malts and sometimes specialty grains make up more than 40% of the grain bill!!!! I'm so confused!! It's worse than left or right...heathens or super religious! Yanks vs. Aussie! Its about our BEER!! I love Rogue ales and I'll bet I'm not alone! Sooo, let's load up on the specialty's kids and make some great beer! AP Toweling off and leaving the corner. I have no affiliation with BYO, or Rogue although I'd relocate to work there! Hell, I'd probably spew, bostonian definition Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:53:08 -0400 From: "FC1(SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Good Mail order shops online I ahjve never bought grain or malt on line preferring instead to frequent my local HB shops and brewpub. I have howerver ordered hops from www.freshops.com and been very satisfied. I also order some equipment from Northern Brewer and yeast from Hearts Homebrew. Satisfied with the results from all three places and no problems. Mike Pensinger Beermaker at mad.scientist.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:03:15 +1000 (EST) From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at aus.sun.com> Subject: hey crazy fridge guy.. HEY Crazy fridge guy, i have inherited a huge fridge, and i dont think its healthy. It runs, but no matter at what setting it does not cool, runs at the same temp (20 c flat) i am thinking the thermostat is dead. would also regassing be the go?? all matter of replies welcome. esp from those folks that used to live in Sydney, but moved to the southern highlands just like the rest of "them"......whats good is a place if there is no surf beaches within 10 minutes drive...hmmm...how can one live?? scotty recently self-relegated to nymph stage Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:25:17 +1000 From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au> Subject: Re: One For The Aussies My good mate Phil Yates was chatting about my other good mate Steve Lacey's question on the metric equivalent of "pts per pound". You see we are all good mates down under. Now Phil didn't know if Steve was asking about extraction efficiency or potential extract, and neither do I. But I have read that a standard (metric) approach is to perform a standard mash under laboratory conditions (called a congress mash) and express the extract obtained as a percentage of the dry weight of grain. This usually gives a figure of 75-80%. Now the beauty of the metric system is that you can just take 1 kg of grain (with an extract potential of say 75%) and when mashed with the standard thickness of 3 liters water/Kg grain gives you an extract potential of 25%. i.e. there is 750 grams of extract dissolved in the water that is not absorbed by the grain. I believe that a good rule of thumb is that mashing a kilo of grain at 3l/kg will produce a wort at 20% (which is much the same as 20 degrees Plato). Sparging this with the same volume of water, dilutes it to 10 Plato. After a 10% reduction in volume during the boil this increases to 11P (or 1.044) which is about my standard gravity. Despite having access to Promash, and my own recipe formulation program (which like most of my brewing projects is unfinished) I do most of my calculations in my head using these figures. So, in answer to Steve's question, Points/Quart/Pound seem to be a term mainly used in the US for published data for US grains. While they could be converted to a metric equivalent (points/litre/kilo) there is not much point. David Lamotte Brewing in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia, where we ponder If the "black box" flight recorder is never damaged during a plane crash, why isn't the whole plane made of that stuff? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:21:15 -0400 From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net> Subject: Survivor, Hops et. al. Greetings- I do not know if this has been spoken of here before, but i thought it interesting after watching Survivor tonight (per my wifes choice) to think about the next series, which will be filmed in Australia. What do our friends from accross the pond think about all the comotion first the olympics and now this stupid show... I know little about the country, but an island in the south china sea sounds like a picnic compared to what i have heard about where they are sending this next group... On hops, (i sound like Gibran) I grew Cascade as well until i had to move and i too had hops year one on. I found that a brief stint ( a day or so) air drying and then into a dehydrator on its lowest setting worked best. I also tried to pick the cones when they were full but also not brown and tough. I would also wait until the yellow dust at the base of each leaf was at its highest level. I had a ton of fun, but they were VERY invasive. As for wintering them over all i would do is mound up some mulch over them in the fall after cutting them back after they have turned brown, and forget about them until spring. Then i would go out and find the new white shoots that you can eat ( and i did) the same as asparegas (sp?). Enjoy! Once again thanks for the help with the imperial stout ideas, it is still bubbling away. my fear now is that it will be to astringent in taste and that, that will mask some of the other flavors, (ie Maple). Tight lines, Russ A. (caught a 5# Largemouth the other day in a small VT lake, quite a thrill.) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:52:59 EST From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: paranoid about bacteria Casey C. wrote recently about the worries of bacteria from sucking on a syphon hose... A method I've used without any worries is cutting off about 2 inches of slightly larger diameter hose heating it in boiling water and forcing it over the end of the syphon hose I am about to suck on. Once you've got the syphon flowing pinch the main hose and remove the larger hose off the end... viola! Your mouth hasn't touched your main hose (sounds obscene doesn't it) and no more mental stress! It's easier than syphoning your python!! (an old Australian colloquialism) Also don't worry about the stuff you see on the surface in your carboy, some yeast strains seem to leave remnants on the surface on the odd occasion, it's very unlikely to be bacteria. Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia Where men are men and pythons are syphoned! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:05:27 +1000 From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au> Subject: Whirlpooling Hot Wort Anybody reading both our posts in last HBD will notice that Jay Spies and I are in contradiction with our advice to Bob Shatola about handling his boiled wort. I said "whirlpool the hot wort", Jay said "don't, whatever you do, whirlpool the hot wort." So, how are we going to resolve this without getting the fur flying? Well, let me clarify by saying that whilst I am conscious of the potential for HSA, I am not anal about it. So, what I do is whirlpool by getting the mass of wort moving slowly at first and then gradually building up speed. The idea being to minimise surface breaking by the stirring implement. I do not siphon until the wort has come to a rest and settled for some time. I *believe* this will minimise HSA, but don't completely dismiss the possibility that this practice is not good for my beer. Time will tell and Bob will have to make up his own mind about whose advice he is going to take. Steve Lacey PS. I note that some of my sentences seemed nonsensical because HBD chopped off some lines that must have been too long. I'll attempt to avoid this in future. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:21:47 -0700 From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com> Subject: Why aerate? I have seen in print and been told by knowledgeable people that after transferring the wort to the primary fermentation vessel that I should stir it or shake it to aerate prior to fermentation. Then when transferring to a secondary or filling bottles I read and heard that aeration is bad for the beer (final product). Is there a hard and fast rule or do conditional statements apply? Thanks from the newbie, Lee Smith Chandler, AZ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:35:29 -0700 From: "Seog Lee" <seoglee at yahoo.com> Subject: re: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria... >While siphoning into the secondary glass carboy, on both batches, >I couldn't help using my mouth. You're are just being paranoid about it. I've done it many times my self and didn't have any problems, but I normally rinse my mouth out with vodka before hand. If it was going into the primary, I'd be a little worried, but in the secondary, it has a lot of factors that protect it from a slight bit of neglect, e.g. low pH, anaerobic environment, alcohol, lower nutrient levels. If you're still concerned about it, get a properly sanitized wine thief and grab a sample. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:06:38 +0800 From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au> Subject: Kit beers Warren White complains about the quality of kit beers. My first few batches where made from kits deviation from the instructions only in that I used dextrose instead of cane sugar (I also used the optional hydrometer). The coopers kits I have seen recommend using dextrose and I have seen kits that even suggests that you use a tin of unhoped extract (naturally they recommend there brand) only thay forgot to say if you do this you need additional hops. And as much as I hate to say it the beer these kits make is not bad. To the extent that I preferred my first kit beer to some of the mid priced commercial beers. I have herd of only one person that had a disaster home brewing and didn't try it again and they had such a bad case of bottle bombs I don't think they even tasted it (I suspect something as simple as premature bottling). Kit beers are far from perfect but they aren't all that bad. Edward Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:37:27 +0930 From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: grains & yeast Pete Czerpak wrote: >I tend to fly with my brews quite regularly. So do I after a few dopplebocks! >The poor australians.. we can surely ship some of those crazy grain >varietys down there for them to aid in "complexity". Hmm, it might have to be in a commercially sealed bag and may have to come with a quarantine cerificate - I'm not sure. AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) and Customs are extremely serious about importation of any food or plant material into Australia as any of you that have visited Australia can attest to. The cost of shipping grains is prohibitive as well unless you are importing very large quantities, which you would find difficult to sell. Mash brewers are not a big market force here. I would rather make specialty grains in my oven - much easier. >any hope of getting that Ayinger yeast up to the US to WhiteLab or Wyeast >for propogating and distribution? I'm sure Aying Brewery yeast is available to you guys. I can't remember who has it, possibly Yeast Culturing Kit Company or Brewtek? I think YCKC is the company that has many strains in their bank but does not advertise them all. If you have difficulties tracking it down, I'm sure Phil, Graham or myself can play "swappies" with you. All the best, Brad McMahon Aldgate, South Australia Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:12:36 +0930 From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: The Word down under Warren White wrote: >I can always remember telling people yeah I homebrew, it would always be >met with the same answer... I've got a friend, who has a friend who tried >homebrew and he told me that it tastes like shit! Which is why I tell people I "brew beer" or I "make beer" and I don't make "homebrew". > As much as Charlie P. gives us some misleading information Actually he gives very little bad information and his books have stood the test of time. The only one thing I can think of is his use of those horrible glass carboys as primary fermenters. Luckily they are as rare as hens teeth down here. > You tend to always find the stereotype in your supermarket who buys his > two cans of Wander Draught or Coopers Lager, his bags of sugar and hopes > like shit he can produce a batch for under ten dollars. > It's this type of guy who personally attaches the bad stigma to > homebrewing. I know the type well. Have a chat to your local homebrew shop owner about the supermarket brewers who come into their stores. They usually come in because Woolworths have run out of something. They always beat their chests and say "Ah've been a brewer fer twenny years and you don't need all this junk (waving furiously at the shelves) ta make great beer. Ya know what ma secret is?? BROWN sugar. Ma dentist gave me that tip and it makes all tha difference!" Oooh I hate those meeces to pieces! I'm quite happy to tell them that, no, they haven't been brewing for 20 years, they made a kit ONCE and repeated themselves for 20 years; and no, you are not a brewer any more than I'm a chef when I reheat a frozen dinner in the microwave! Sorry if I sound elitist but if you are going to bestow a title on yourself you have better done something to earn it. Phew! [rant mode off!] >Long live all the homebrewing stores for giving the craft some >much-deserved dignity, respect and steering brewers in the right direction. HOORAY!! Although there are quite a few shops out there who are there to make a sale and don't care about brewers at all - may they rot in hell. Here's to all the good ones! CHEERS! Brad McMahon Aldgate, South Australia Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:40:44 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: HBD description circa 1787/To good to be trub?/decoction Mark says ... >Actually, that's exactly what democracy is, i.e., mob rule (note #4). I agree with Mark that a pure democracy is majority/mob rule, but > 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the > individual within a community. hints at the tempered democracy suggested by deTocqueville. I should have probably described this at greater length (right !). TNX Mark. Madison accurately describe much about HBD in 1787 ... > The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; > [...] A zeal for different opinions concerning [...] many other points, > as well of speculation as of practice; [...] , have, in > turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual >animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress > each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is > this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that > where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous > and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their > unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. == == == Bob S asks ... >Chas. Papazian recommends ... Uhhh - read Papazian once, cut an inch off one of your kitchen table legs and place the book there to prevent future reference. Then point your browser at: http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html John Palmer's excellent work and also to http://www.brewery.org/brewery/Library.html where you will find a plethora of articles on every aspect of brewing. Somewhere (hopefully in one of the above) John Palmer also had a nice article on sanitization. Don't do this reboil thing - too complicated, no gain. Understand that your beer is infected from the get-go. The malt is covered with bacteria and the wyeast packs are not free of infection either, and unless you autoclave your fermenter and prevent all access to ambient air you have another source of infection. Your beers salvation is in keeping things as clean as *reasonably* possible then pitching a healthy amount of vigorous yeast. The yeast drop the wort pH quite quickly and remove the simplest sugars and O2 and together this discourages the majority of infections and in any case reduces their growth.. There are a few bugs that can almost match yeast growth under brewing conditions (like wild yeast and petite mutants) and if these become prevalent you'll need to start with new yeast. My advise is to mechanically clean and sanitize all the stuff that will touch your post-boil wort. I find that 20' in iodophor does the sanitizing job - *but* carefully clean and sanitize the stuff after use too. It's impossible to clean things covered with moldy wort from the past session. For the metal racking cane + scrubby and the immersion chiller. It makes sense to place these (pre-cleaned) right into the boiling wort. The heat handles most residual infection. >1) What happens in the meantime to the concept of the last minute steeping of >aroma hops? Should I hold those off for the reboil? Egad. > >2) Can I, with sanitized tools and putting down homebrew, carefully whirlpool >and siphon AFTER immersion chilling, or will God in his infinite wisdom >strike my beer down dead with every variety of microbe in Yamhill County? I'd suggest this. Put the cleaned hardware in the pot at T-15' or so, time the last hops additions after the boil returns and then at knock-out time turn on the immersion chiller water and turn off the heat. Once it's cool you can whirlpool and siphon to the fermenter. The scrubbies are not fine enough to prevent cold break and a lot of hot break from getting through, and whirlpooling is only partly effective. Some pellet hops bis get thru too, but whole cones may actually filter. Bottom line - you will have a certain amount of gunk in your fermentor. This gunk is mostly good for yeast growth but *possibly* bad for beer flavor & head. The alternatives are to 1/ allow it to settle well in a vessel, like a carboy, and then siphon off; 2/ to live with it if the amount isn't too much, or 3/ to pitch the yeast and then leave the gunk behind by moving the beer to a secondary fermenter in 2-3 days. Solutions 2/ and 3/ are preferred until and unless you understand your breweries potential for infection w/ solution 1/. If you'd like to assess your processes potential for infection, half fill a small sanitized container with unpitched cooled wort (right from the siphon) and seal. Keep it in a warm place and check it for signs of life every 12 hours. If you can make it to three days you have a pretty clean process. When you do see signs (cloudiness, surface growth, lid popping gas generation - then take a sniff and taste and meet and observe a likely infection foe. This nice method was in part suggested by G.Fix in AoBT. >3) How does one get the five gallons of cooled wort from the pot to the >carboy? Siphon - it's good training for those unliftable 15gal batches and is preferable re infection to pouring wort thru the air. Less spillage risk too. Don't get too jiggy with those 5gal carboys either. They are liftable when full, but it's dangerous - esp with wet hands. Use a cradle and a neck handle. Two hands at all times. == Decoction: Graham Sanders correctly takes Louis Bonham to task for stepping about 1 micron over the line saying >there is nothing that amateur brewers can get >from decoction mashing that you can't also get from step infusion mashing >and recipe formulation If you'd make that "almost nothing" it would be indisputable, Kunze (somewhere can't find it) makes a similar statement about decoction not being much practiced due to extra time and energy usage and the fact that very similar beers can be made by adjusting the grist bill. I think a lot of folks believe decoction will significantly improve their good recipes to the point of excellence - it won't. As Graham suggests it's a rather small incremental improvement. It *may* give your beer a very small edge, but even that is arguable. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:42:09 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: mash hopping Pete Czerpak has touched on my favorite topic--mash hopping. I'm fairly evangelical about this, as all of my beers over the past eight months have been mash hopped and I've never been brewing better beer. The flavor of mash hopping, IMHO, is far superior to anything you'll get from a late hop addition or FWH. I use pellets all the time and there's no problem whatsoever. On Tuesday I brewed up a big IPA with four ounces of E. Kent Goldings in the mash. Ran smooth as silk and tastes magically delicious going into the ferment. I usually add 25% more hops to the mash than the TOTAL late hop additions for a normal beer. Keep the bittering hop level the same. As for IBU calculations, I treat the mash hopping as a charge at 10 minutes before knock-out. Seems to be spot on in terms of perceived bitterness. In addition to the pleasant flavors associated with mash hopping, I've noticed an improved hot break, higher efficiency, and clearer runoff from the mash. For my last IPA I was able to see the bottom of the kettle when it had 7 gallons of wort in it. It also reduces the amount of "splooge" in the bottom of the kettle after the boil. For my IPA, instead of five ounces of hop pellets in the bottom sucking up my precious beer, I only had to avoid the huge pile of hot break and an ounce of Magnum pellets. I'm sure there will be people that are certain that I'm full of crap. To this I say--TRY IT. I've convinced a great number of brewers to try it once; most of them appear to be making it part of the regular brewday. I'm going to lay virtual hands on the entire HBD and ask that you all try it on your next batch and report back. You, too, will join my cult. It can't be stopped. ;-p Just remember-- First wort hopping is for sissies! Marc mash hopping the hell out of Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:02:42 -0400 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: Bad Advice Jay Spies gives the following bad advice: "Bob Sotola asks in HBD #3405 about advice given by the mysterious and rarely seen Charlie Pap, who quotes thusly: >>>Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot break trub from the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged with a copper scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang wort for a short time to resanitize.<<< Once again, Charlie's stellar advice falls prey to common sense. Bob, do yourself a favor and take anything CP says with a pound or two of salt... When the wort is still hot, do not whirlpool and do not siphon. Hot wort is highly susceptible to O2 uptake caused by vigorous stirring and/or siphoning. Use kid gloves on the wort until it has reached at least under 100 degrees, and preferably around 70. Then, I'd whirlpool and let the trub/break/hop residue settle out to the bottom. Once the wort has settled for about 20 minutes to 30 minutes, *then* siphon into your fermenter, and aerate away. If you aerate the hot wort, you're likely to get a lot of O2 into it, which can prematurely stale your beer. If you're busily stirring and siphoning it, I can almost guarantee that aeration will occur. Also, do yourself a favor and keep the lid on the cooled wort as you're waiting for the trub to settle, and sanitize all of your siphoning and fermenting equipment well (but you probably already knew that...) There's absolutely no reason to reboil anything as long as you sanitize your transfer tubing and fermenters well, and minimize the cooled wort's exposure to the outside air. Hope this helps. Brew on, my man... Jay Spies Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery Baltimore, MD" While I don't recommend aerating hot wort any more than any one else, the fact is that a careful whirlpool, around the pot, without splashing, particularly in the presence of the layer of steam that is over a just boiling pot, will NOT cause any problems. I and many brewers to this on a regular basis WITHOUT picking up oxygen, at least at any levels that cause problems. And the comments about not siphoning is bizarre at best. I presume that if one is siphoning hot wort it is to move it through a counter-flow chiller; there wouldn't me much other reason to siphon hot wort. Siphoning doesn't aerate the wort AT ALL. If one siphons and then let's the hot wort splash someplace, that is a problem, but not the siphoning itself. While commercial brewers don't siphon, they do whirlpool. Whirlpooling itself is NOT a problem. Just take care not to splash and otherwise minimize surface disturbance. But stirring the wort as fast as it will go for a couple minutes, covering the pot and waiting 15 minutes will collect the trub, hops and Irish moss in a nice mound in the center allowing you to siphon from the edge of the pot. In this case Charlie is right and you'll want to save that salt for Jay. David Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 06:14:34 -0700 From: Jeffrey Donovan <jeffrey at promash.com> Subject: Potential Gravity in ProMash Hello fellow HBD'rs.....Have seen a few posts regarding the potential extract of grain and how this number is displayed/entered and I wanted to clear something up regarding this number within the ProMash software; ProMash will let you display/enter the potential gravity of any fermentable as either: 1) Specific Gravity per LBS. 2) Points per LBS. 3) Hot Water Extract These are set within the system settings, measurements and sizes section. The Hot Water Extract rating is what the majority of Euro malsters use for the potential extract. We were requested by both users and Malsters to incorporate the HWE number, and while I know there are also other methods to determine potential extract this seems to have satisfied the majority of our European crowd. We've been very careful to get the potential gravity correct in the malt databases, and in some cases the malsters have actually entered the data in for us, but if you have access to the numbers from your malt supplier, by all means you should edit them (or create new entries) to reflect the ratings. A point here and a point there can add up.... Cheers gang! Jeffrey Donovan The Sausalito Brewing Co. ProMash and PilotBrew Software jeffrey at promash.com http://www.promash.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:36:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu> Subject: More hot bacteria... Getting slightly off-topic, but when the conversation moves to what you know... :) > While the vast majority of know organisms can not survive the temperature > and pressure of a functioning autoclave, at least one can. It is usually > dangerous to make blanket statements about life and biology 'cause some > smarmy post-doc always comes along and shows you something unexpected. > Example: Pyrolobus Fumarii lives its entire life at 115C at enormous > pressure. No one has ever tried to autoclave a colony of P. Fumarii as > far as I know but they should survive if one is inclined to try. Of > course they would not survive in your beer as they tend to freeze to > death at temps below 70C. Blanket statements might be dangerous, but this (only somewhat smarmy) graduate student knows about hyperthermophiles and says that any properly functioning autoclave starts and ends its cycle below 70 degrees C and at 1 atmosphere pressure, as well as being an aerobic environment. All three of these things are lethal to most thermophiles. Yeah, Aeropyrum pernix grows aerobically at 95C at one atmosphere. We've grown it in an oven in the lab. It's a weird, weird organism. However, autoclaving kills it. Must be the pressure. I don't know, but I suspect that it wouldn't survive in beer. (Tongue firmly in cheek...) Jeff Renner writes: > One group of organisms, if they can be called that, that appears to be able > to survive autoclaving, are prions. These very simple infectious agents > are the cause of mad cow disease, scrapie and Jacob-Kreuzfeld (sp?) > disease. Don't put any brain matter in your beer and you should be OK. Prions are just protein molecules that happen to warp other protein molecules into a form similar to theirs. I guess you can call that reproduction, but I think that prions are more analogous to toxins than organisms. Like Jeff sez, keep your brains out of your beer and you'll be OK. (Note that prions are not my specialty, and if you manage to get some prion-borne disease from your homebrew, I cannot be held responsible :) On a slightly more relevant note, I've been freezing yeast for several years. I got the protocol from a friend in a yeast genetics lab. I freeze about half a milliliter of happy growing yeast in a milliliter of 22% glycerol that's been sterilized. That's a final concentration of close to 15%. This works because I have got access to a -80C degree freezer. I've revived strains that have been frozen for up to three years. My yeast-studying friend says that he doubts that they would survive too well in a normal freezer unless the freezer stayed below -20C constantly (i.e. no defrosting), in which case you might get 3-6 months. If the glycerol's not frozen solid, then you're not cold enough. When and if I ever leave bench science, I'll proably store my yeast under sterile water or buffer. There was some discussion of this idea on the HBD a while back. Jesse (in Durham, NC, south and east of Jeff Renner somewhere) - -- Jesse Stricker jds19 at acpub.duke.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:45:34 -0400 From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> Subject: I'm no expurt...but..ppp/g I'm no expurt...but.. I use the ppp/g like this: the max ppp/g for 2 row (as steve mentions promash uses) is 38. at 88% extract efficiency I'd get 29 ppp/g. So when I'm formulating a recipe I can figure each lb of malt I use contributes 29 pts. of gravity in one US gal of water(that's ppp/g). So, I have say, 10 lbs of 2 row. I multiply 10 * 29 = 290. That's for 1 gal. So, I divide by 5 gal.: 290 / 5 = 58 which translates to 1.058 for 10 lbs 2 row in 5 gal post boil volume. You big shots with your fancy pants metric system could substitute: points per .45 kilos per 3.79 liters. What a bunch of weirdos!:-) hope this helps AP disclaimer: I'm no expurt, but this method allows me to nail my target gravity every time! The only reason I have to know this is 'cause Promash won't make a MAC version!! They say use the virtual PC program, but my mac is too old!! Oh well, pen and paper for now! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:44:00 -0400 From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net> Subject: What was i thinking? Ok, in retrospect i feel like an idiot for my survivor email, however at the time (quite late) i felt that we had spoken about a ton of other non beer related threads, especially those about the US and Australia so why not attempt to bring us all together.... anyway, flame away if you want, i will just have to be judicious with my PgDn key. Russ Return to table of contents
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