---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  chlorine & chloramine removal (Demonick)
  RE: RE: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria (Doug Hurst)
  koeln (Alan McKay)
  Re: Decoction and other fun topics . . . . (Spencer W Thomas)
  Mail Order ("Jason Henning")
  The FIVE tastes, Vegemite, and autolyzed yeast (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com>
  Fruit OG and drunks ("Ken Schramm")
  Follow-up to much earlier post (Chris Cooper)
  Glycol question / False bottom (The Holders)
  Smorgasbord (Jim English)
  report from Koeln (fwd) (The Home Brew Digest)
  More on extract ratings and gravity calculation (Steve Lacey)
  Re: The Word down under ("Warren White")
  Paranoid,ppppg confusion,SS stain,and Boulder ("Henry St.Pierre")
  RE: whirlpool/first wort hopping/why aerate ("Seog Lee")
  Huge unhealthy fridge (fridgeguy)
  mailorder brew shops ("Czerpak, Pete")
  specialty grains and rogue ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Pap's bad info ("Michael Maag")
  Ayinger yeast (Jeff Renner)
   ("Hull, Ted")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:31:50 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: chlorine & chloramine removal

Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> said: 

>If the water company doesn't use pure chlorine ( fewer do) boiling will
>not have too big an effect on the stabilized chlorine ( typically
>chloramine). Allowing such water to sit for three days as Lance suggests
>will do little to allow the chlorine to escape. I suggest you use a carbon
>filter for this purpose if you are really concerned.

Back in March 98, A.J. de Lange (THE brewing water God) posted the
following.  It contradicts the assumption that chloramines are harder to
remove than chlorine.  Read the first quoted paragraph very carefully, and
note that it is a quote from, Connell, Gerald F. "The
Chlorination/Chloramination Handbook", American Water Works Association,
Denver 1996 p29.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com

FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or 
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't 
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.

- --------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 22:19:30 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Chloramine Heresies

I came across this the other day:

"While free chlorine is far less volatile than combined chlorines, it is
not easily removed by aeration. However, combined chlorines are easily
removed by aeration, and the volatility or vapor pressure increases with
increases in chlorine atoms in the combined chlorine compounds."
 ...
"Di- and trichloramines contribute more significantly to tastes and
odors than free chlorine and monochloramine....Free chlorine and
monochloramine in treated water contribute minimally to the taste of
water."

>From Connell, Gerald F. "The Chlorination/Chloramination Handbook",
American Water Works Association, Denver 1996 p29.

Am I the only one that thought it was the other way around? I've
certainly been preaching the gospel of boiling/aeration for chlorine and
active carbon filtration for chloramine but if the people at the AWWA
aren't expert in this area I don't know who is.

Ever the skeptic, I lugged the gear into the office today (I'm on a well
and so have no chlorinated water available to play with at home) and
amused my co-workers (infantile buggers - one picked up a cuvette,
headed for the door and said he'd be back in a minute with a sample) by
doing some tests in the kitchen there. A sample from the tap measured
1.10 mg/L free chlorine and 0.41 mg/L chloramines. I boiled a portion of
this sample for a few minutes in the microwave and cooled it. The cooled
sample measured 0.02 mg/L free chlorine and 0 chloramine but note that
chloramine is estimated by measuring total chlorine (which measured 0.02
mg/L) and subtracting the free chlorine reading of 0.02. The precision
(not the accuracy) of the measurement is 0.01 mg/L so both readings are
"in the noise" but the conclusion is the first heresy: Boiling removes
chloramine!

I then took a tumblerfull of the water to my office and actually did a
little work. Five hours later I ran a test on the water which had
remained in the tumbler undisturbed for that period. It measured 1.17
mg/L free chlorine and 0.18 mg chloramine. Thus the second heresy:
chloramine is indeed more volatile than chlorine and thus escapes from
standing water more quickly than free chlorine. How could the free
chlorine be higher after standing five hours than at the outset? I
believe the answer is that some chloramine had decomposed into free
chlorine and ammonia which is consistent with the statement of the local
water works personnel that free chlorine is a couple of tenths of a mg/L
when the water leaves the plant. This is also consistent with the fact
that aquarists treat chloraminated water for ammonia if they don't
remove chlorine and chloramines with activated carbon.

Finally, I took the remaining water in the tumbler and poured it back
and forth a few times. A final test gave 1.01 mg/L free chlorine (a 14%
reduction) and 0.13 mg/L chloramine (a 28% reduction). Thus the third
heresy is confirmed: chloramine is more effectively removed than free
chlorine by aeration.

So what do you all think of that? Apparently about 25% of large water
utilities and about 5% of small ones are now using chloramination (are
you there, Al?). Thus many of you are starting with chloraminated water.
Are any of you using just a boil, aeration or standing to remove the
chlorine and getting away with it?




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: RE: Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria

>  
> 
> By the time you're ready to siphon into the secondary fermenter the yeast
> have fully taken over your beer.  Like a large city, they have reproduced
> themselves and expanded into the furthest corners of your fermenter.  Add
> to this the alcohol they are producing, plus the hops in the beer and you
> have a very inhospitable environment for infectious bacteria.  
> 
> While some caution should be used regarding sanitation of anything that
> touches the beer, I doubt you have any cause for concern.  Remember that
> beer was made for thousands of years before anyone even knew about the
> existence or activity of bacteria and yeast.  It follows that they weren't
> all too concerned about sanitation.  As Chalie Papazian says "Relax, don't
> worry, have a homebrew" (though in your case have a microbrew). 
> 
> Hope this eases  your concerns and when your beer turns out alright you'll
> feel even better.  It's like opening a birthday present when you open that
> first completed bottle of homebrew.  Also note that when you're ready to
> bottle, your beer should appear and taste like beer (though it will be
> flat and maybe a little cloudy).  If it is infected you'll know then.
> 
> Personally, I use the fill the tube with water method to start my syphon
> and it can be tricky and messsy to get it started.  I just purchased a
> siphon starter made by Fermentap that I hope will eliminate siphon
> starting problems.  
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Doug Hurst
> Chicago, IL


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: koeln

mmmm, seems my report sent the other day didnt get through.

 anyway, i am here in cologne now doing research for a book 
on how best to visit 
 the city as a beer geek.   the book is quite a ways off yet, 
but email me for 
 details.  there is an awful lot worth seeing outside the 
centre of the city, and 
 with the awesome transport system it is easy to get to.

 email me and let me know when you will be here, and what 
type of bars you 
 usually like.

 cheers,
 -alan



                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:23:21 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Decoction and other fun topics . . . . 

Hmm.  

Louis Bonham says: 

    Louis> from a final taste standpoint, there is nothing that
    Louis> amateur brewers can get from decoction mashing that you
    Louis> can't also get from step infusion mashing and recipe
    Louis> formulation (e.g., increase the amount of Munich malt a bit
    Louis> if you want more melanoidins).

This is a bit difference from what I understood Lewis to be saying.
My understanding of his position is that "decoction has no perceptible
effect on flavor."  I just flat don't believe that statement.

I could possibly see my way to believing that you can get flavor
effects "close enough" to those produced by decoction, by proper
recipe formulation.

Besides, it's fun to do!  :-)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:33:01 -0400
From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: Mail Order

I don't do a lot of mail orders because I prefer to shop locally. I'm luck
to be able to. The few times that I have, I've used Grape and Granary.
Awesome service! I order a couple bags of grain on Wednesday and had them on
Friday. If I had know that it was going to be so quick, I'd made a yeast
starter for that weekend. you can find them at
http://www.grapeandgranary.com/

As for St. Pats, it's a never ending saga. They out pace every other company
in complaints. Search the archives or Deja News and you find plenty of
people with complaints. It's not unusual for Lynn to all but call the brewer
a liar. From poorly packed orders to defective kegs to slow shipping, it's
never St. Pat's fault.

I was looking for 15 cases of 7oz bottles for the AHA Tech Conference
commemorative mead last spring. I call St. Pats and asked for Lynn. She was
on another line. They took my name and number and said she'd call me back. I
got no call. So I tried again the next day. Lynn was on jury duty but was
expected back in the afternoon. Again they told me she would call me back.
You guessed it, no call.

Now that it looks like Dryw Blanchard and I have gotten the St. Pat's thread
revived, how about revisiting glass vs. plastic fermentors or botulism
again?

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Senior Rennerian Coordinate Developer
Whitmore Lake, MI



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:48:47 -0400
From: "Steinbrunner, Jim (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com>
Subject: The FIVE tastes, Vegemite, and autolyzed yeast

Warning - This post is marginally beer-related. Relax, have a craftbrew, and
read 
on if you're interested. Also, I'm not affiliated with any references here,
just 
interested in beer and beer by-products.

I frequent the Cecil Adams _The Straight Dope_ website (motto: Fighting 
ignorance since 1973 - it's taking longer than we thought). I came across
this 
Mailbag article on a fifth taste, umami: 
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mumami.html

Salt, sweet, sour, bitter... and umami? Umami is described as 
_meaty_, and a prime example is the flavor of monosodium glutamate, 
aka MSG. A good source of MSG is... autolyzed brewer's yeast! Umami 
is pronounced ooh-mommy, as in _Ooh, Mommy, you've abused your 
yeast!_

I recently visited Sydney, Australia, where I had my first Vegemite (Kraft 
trademark) experience. It's a dark brown paste made from concentrated 
yeast extract, according to the label. Locals told me that, like beer, it's 
an acquired taste. So far, unlike beer, I have not acquired the taste. I did

a little web search and found this unofficial Vegemite site, and a recipe 
for autolyzing yeast ON PURPOSE! 
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~macinnis/vegemite.htm 

Seasoning is added and, voila! VEGEMITE. A salty, umami-tasting 
spread beloved by Aussies of all ages, and they owe it all to beer! Come 
to think of it, a beer or two would be good to wash down the rather 
persistent aftertaste  : ) 

Aussies and Vegemite: Viva l'difference!

Jim Steinbrunner
Midland, MI


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:49:49 -0400
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
Subject: Fruit OG and drunks

Fermentables in fruit:

The typical gravity of fruit juices like apple and cherry runs in the 1.045
 -1.060 range.  Figure about 1.052 as a rule for ripe cherries.

Re: Drunks:  Yes, you can legislate morality.  It doesn't always work; it can 
create ugly situations that can persist for long periods of time, occassionally 
with nasty by-products. But we've done it repeatedly in the US, and it goes
on around the globe.  And it doesn't come only from left wingers or right 
wingers, no matter how hard we try to paste those outside of our own views 
with the complete "blame."  That is a commonly used trick designed to blame
your opponents with any distasteful issue you can scrape up, to further your 
own political ends or further one's own illusions about the right headedness 
of their own end of the spectrum.  Both sides of the political spectrum can be
held to "blame" for regulation and legislation of morality (in the US and 
abroad). 

The moral issues with alcohol are personal, and some of them are sticky (is 
drunk ever OK? How drunk is too drunk? How often is too often? How do you 
behave when drunk?), but some of them need to be regulated (how much 
alcohol can not be mixed with car keys?).  Driving while intoxicated is, 
however,  regulated in almost all cultures, whether liberal or conservative,
and even to extremes in cultures of both bents.  In many respects you can 
and must regulate morality.  Look at the moral issues that have been or 
are regulated, codified or prohibited:  slavery, voting rights, civil rights,  
alcohol use, drug use, abortion rights.  The job of our representatives 
in government  is to listen to the citizens, closely examine their own  
moral compass,  and create structure that allows our society to function 
in a manner we perceive and believe is fair.  It is arguably better than 
anarchy, but it relies on perception, influence through rhetoric, 
societal decisions and legislative power.  And many of the ways in 
which we have legislated morality look pretty d-mn good to me, and have 
made our country a lot better.  But not all of them.  Alcohol use and the 
legality of homebrewing definitley fall somewhere in the mix.

So the issue of public perception can be paramount.  Pat's point is 
well taken, on my account.  A few years ago, I appeared on a Detroit 
television newscast, commenting on our State Fair Homebrew judging, and 
the news anchor that interviewed me seemed to have the predilection that 
we were judging beer, therefor we'd all get blasted.  I corrected her and set 
the record straight, but she came to the discussion with a preconception that 
was not favorable, and a news anchor is in the position to influence the 
minds of many people (some of whom let the media do their thinking for 
them, which is a horror in itself).  I had the same experience when I was 
interviewed about homebrewing and beer judging on the most popular 
morning drive time radio program in Tokyo (now there's a few sets of ears).  
Again, I tried to set the record straight:  small samples, limited number of 
samples, long period of time, the importance of being able to judge 
coherently and consistently.   If we let the misconception persist, or worse 
still, fertilize it, we will bear the brunt of whatever legislative 
or regulatory hassles ensue.  

Ken Schramm
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA BoA
Troy, MI


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Follow-up to much earlier post

Greetings All!

This is a follow-up to a couple of posts I made a few months back.
Through the Digest I had requested Yeast suppliers to provide an 
informal description of their suggested method for making starters 
using their product.  I recieved a reply from David Logsdon of 
Wyeast (THANKS David !)

To test his suggestion I prepared a common wort (10-gallons made from
30% flaked maize, 70% pale 2-row, single infusion mash, lightly hopped,
60 minute boil) and prepared both a Wyeast #1056 and Wyeast Pilsner
smack pack starter as described below. 

And now I would like to share the final results of my simple experiment.
Both beers came out very good, short lag times (less than 16 hours) and
nice finish (both beers cleared nicely although the pilsner took several
weeks in the lagering fridge to completely clear).  The starting gravity
was around 1.050 for both brews, the Pilsner finished at 1.011 and the
Ale finished at 1.014.  The ale is slightly darker in color while the 
Pilsner is almost golden.  Both have suitable head stability, lace and 
finish.  The ale is a bit light in the hops balance for my taste but the
Pilsner is right on the mark.

In effect I ended up with a CAP and basically a Creme-Ale. In retrospect
the suggested stepping methods were fairly easy to follow and had good
results.  The temperature control steps for the Pilsner yeast were a 
bit challenging but I was lucky in that my recently aquired lagering
fridge and controller allowed me to hit the target temps fairly close. 

I have had several people taste the beers side-by-side, the corn flavor 
is definitely more pronounced in the ale than the pilsner but both are 
fairly clean and make suitable session beers.  My wife  (the infamous 
Debbi of the Kitchen, see sig. line) is an artist and we have a shop 
at the local Mich. Renaisance Faire, these brews are very popular
with our back-room neighbors and friends at the fair (along with my
annual batch of cyser, infamous in our shire!).

May your wort never scortch 
and your sparge never stick!


- ---------------------copy of David Logsdon's original reply------------

Thank you for the opportunity to address some of the questions you have
regarding yeast propagation and yeast handling. Much has transpired in the
15 years we have been producing yeast for homebrewers. 
 
Initial yeast packages of yeast we produced then, had a target cell count
of dry yeast which was the only thing available to homebrewers at that
time. Since then our cell counts have been increased significantly.
 
To obtain an ideal pitching rate, the viability of the yeast, the
oringinal gravity of the wort and the dissolved oxygen are all variables
which need to be addressed. There are many ways to achieve the desired
results, the following scenarios are suggestions.
 
For making 5 gallons of ale, 1.040 - 1.050 original gravity, add 50 mls of
active yeast to a 500 ml starter solution of dry malt extract made up to an
original gravity of 1.040, boiled, cooled to 75 F and aerated. Continue
frequent agitation to supply as much O2 as possible. Typically within 24
hours, when the starter is in high kerausen it could be transferred to 5
gallons of wort or continued to propagate by adding to 1500 ml of
additional malt extract as prepared above, for higher gravity wort or
higher pitching rates. It would be ready to transfer to 20 liters in 24 hours.
 
50 mls of lager yeast can be started in a smaller volume (200 mls) for the
first 24 hours at 75 F. Then stepped down to 65 F for 24 hours in 1 liter
of malt extract wort s.g. 1.040, then transferred to 2 liters of wort at 55
F for 24-48 hours prior to pitching into 20 liters.
 
Key points are : Producing sterile wort with aseptic handling. Many people
feel that wort is unstabile and that contaminants will grow if not
protected by the yeast. This is generally untrue. If contaminat organisms
are present in the wort, they will grow along with the yeast. Adequately
boiled and cooled wort should remain free of growth for 72 hours if left
unpitched. That is a commercial brewery standard.  Provide adequate
aeration (dissolved oxygen), even adding more O2 the day after brewing.

Pitching on high kerausen. 
It is a general rule to make increases or transfers in 5 to 10 fold
increments. Making the transfer on high kerausen with good aeration has a
greater impact then any other aspect of propagation. That is why the many
people who do not make starters, but pitch fresh yeast from an activated
package into well aerated sterile (stable) wort, can make good beer too.
Like most things in life, the more one puts into it the more they get out
of it. 

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) 
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:32:32 -0700
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Glycol question / False bottom


Can anyone tell me how many gallons of 45F glycol it would take to chill
18-20 gallons of boiling wort to 65F using a Maxichiller? I know that
chilled glycol is used in plate exchangers, but I'm unsure on how to
figure the ratio needed.

Also, has anyone out there made a false bottom for a converted liquid
oxygen dewar like the ones at http://mwb.brewer.net/BrewKettles.htm ? It
has a slightly convex bottom, and so far all I've been able to do is
stare at my own reflection in it. I've seen these sold in the past, so
I'm sure someone out there has a solution. Should I just make a
Sqeezymasher? Any tin knockers out there with a suggestion?

TIA, 

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:31:00 -0400
From: Jim English <jim.english at mindspring.com>
Subject: Smorgasbord

Multiple topics, multiple thoughts...

It's been great reading all the Aussie posts of late.  Irreverence,
humo(u)r, creativity...sounds like a description of "Americans" around
the world a century, or so, ago.  We've lost our edge.  You guys still
have it.  The HB scene in au. seems to be where we(US) were a while
back.  I've only been in the hobby 5 years and there are way more
ingredients and gizmos available to me than I will ever want to use.  I
gather from  posts from the old-timers it was not always so.  Perhaps we
could learn a little about the spirit of the whole endeavour from our
antipodean (love THAT word) compatriots.

It was good to see some good 'ol Libertarian arithmetic from Mark Rogers
without being so obvious as to identify himself with any "group".

Jeff, why did you have to bring up the prion thing, just as I was
planning my Squirrel Brain Stout!!!  Just damn.

CAUTION:  Brewing-related material to follow

"Father, I must confess that after 3 years of exclusively all-grain 	
brewing, I had to throw a partial extract..oh hell..an extract lager
(only a half-pound of crystal and a pound of light Munich).
The shame...the horror."
Baloney.
The yeast was ready.  The time was non-existant.  More importantly,
supplies were perilously low.  
A man has to do what a man has to do.
I'll deal with my Karma later.

JRE
'hotlanta


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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:05:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Home Brew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: report from Koeln (fwd)


Just moving a post accidentally sent to hbd instead of homebrew. Respond
to Alan...

- -- 
Cheers!

The Home Brew Digest Janitorial Staff

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:35:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
To: hbd at hbd.org
Subject: report from Koeln

Hey folks,

Been here about 5 days now doing some research, and am just loving it.
Spent most of yesterday at the Erzquell Brauerei (Zunft Koelsch), Friday
have an appointment at the Dom Brauerei, then next week at Peters.

So far Ive tried Dom, Suenners, Gaffel, Zunft, Peters, Sion, Paeffgen, 
Kueppers, Frueh, Malzmuehle, Ganser, Garde, Reissdorf

and I still need Giesler, Sester, Richmodis, Kuerfursten and Weissbraeu.

I know there are a few more, and I'll try to track them down.

Keep your eye on my webpage in a couple weeks when Im back for a full report 
with photos et al.

Hi to all the HBD folks!

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:38:14 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: More on extract ratings and gravity calculation

This lather I am working myself into over extract rating etc. John Palmer,
you have a lot to answer for!

In my earlier posts I have wondered whether other Aussies use the pt
gallon/lb system in their brewing calculations in any way. Do they use, or
have a need for a metric equivalent? This was the thrust of John's original
question to me. Anyway, by using brewing software, and taking typical grain
extract numbers, I was suggesting it was something I had not really worried
about or fiddled with. So, this got me thinking. Why not? Well firstly, why
would we use it at all? Easy. To calculate the wort gravity for a brew. For
this we need the parameters of mass of malt, extract rating of malt, volume
of wort (post boiling and cooling), and extraction efficiency (i.e what
percentage of the extract rating did you actually get).

I supposed that the answer to why we don't fiddle with extract rating (if
indeed *we* don't) lies in susceptibility of the various parameters to
variation and sensitivity of the wort gravity to those variations. This led
me to the rare act of whipping up a few numbers on a spreadsheet, plotting a
couple of graphs, and otherwise frigging about. What I surprised myself with
(not) was this. With all other parameters remaining constant, the wort
gravity will vary 1.2 pts for a 1 pt change in extract efficiency and 3.5
pts for a 5% change in extraction efficiency. Also consider that it will
vary by 3 pts for every 1/4 gallon (~1 L) that you are out with hitting the
final wort volume.

The interpretation. You need to be much more concerned with estimating your
extraction efficiency correctly and hitting the right final wort volume than
with what the grain extract rating is. That is assuming that it is not
likely to vary by more than a point or so from the "rule of thumb" values.

Another application is to back-calculate the grain extract rating. However,
you need to know what the extraction efficiency was. And how confident can
anybody be that they know their system's *actual* efficiency for a given
brew within 1%???? Most efficiencies are calculate dbased on what we get
based on an assumed grain extract rating. No? In other words, you can't
really back-calculate in this way except under laboratory conditions where
you get a known (100% extraction efficiency).

Now, I know the above is going to be obvious and common sense to the
majority of the advanced brewers and is probably covered in a million books
(Home brewing 101?). And I don't quite know why I have chosen to parade my
ignorance before you all. But hopefully these musings will be helpful to
somebody (other than me).

Cheers,

Steve Lacey




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:48:25 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Word down under

Brad McMahon wrote:

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know the type well. Have a chat to your local homebrew shop owner
about the supermarket brewers who come into their stores. They
usually come in because Woolworths have run out of something.
They always beat their chests and say "Ah've been a brewer fer
twenny years and you don't need all this junk (waving furiously
at the shelves) ta make great beer. Ya know what ma secret is??
BROWN sugar. Ma dentist gave me that tip and it makes all thadifference!"
Oooh I hate those meeces to pieces!
I'm quite happy to tell them that, no, they haven't been
brewing for 20 years, they made a kit ONCE and repeated
themselves for 20 years; and no, you are not a brewer
any more than I'm a chef when I reheat a frozen dinnerin the microwave!
Sorry if I sound elitist but if you are going to bestow
a title on yourself you have better done something to earn it.
Phew! [rant mode off!]

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On similar note to your story, the bloke who runs my local homebrew shop 
told me he had some dropkick come into his store, pick up a packet of 
bottlecaps, ranting and farting he proceeds to wave them in his face and 
say, whadya doin!... These caps cost me 60 cents less at Safeway! This 
meaning he can probably get his Wander Draught, kilo of generic cane sugar 
and caps for under you guessed it - 10 bucks!
    The afore-mentioned homebrew shop owner decides one Saturday morning to 
do his grocery shopping and surprise! surprise! happens to run into this 
same
inbred $10 boofhead Charley who proceeds to run off and say wait I'll be 
back in a minute...
    He then comes back huffing and puffing, (with his can of Wander Draught 
and kilo of Safeway sugar) and says, look here's these bloody bottlecaps I 
was tellin ya about, see 6 bob cheaper!!
    Sorry this long winded, but bear with me, HERE COMES THE BEST PART!!!
    He then asks the afore-mentioned homebrew store owner for some advice on 
why his beer doesn't taste too good!
    Little ironic isn't it??? - Dirty bastard probably didn't buy any 
bleach, would of put his budget over 10 bucks wouldn't it.
    On a high note for these type of people though... The GST has put the 
price of kits down, particularly Wander Draught! Yummy! Yummy! So he doesn't 
have to cut down his fusel alcohol intake now or buy a gulp! Brigalow Kit!

Yibbida, Yibbida... that's all folks!

Warren L. White - Melbourne, Australia
Allergic to Fusel Alcohol! and Wander Draught
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 03:36:07 -0400
From: "Henry St.Pierre" <hankstar at mhonline.net>
Subject: Paranoid,ppppg confusion,SS stain,and Boulder

>Casey C says " Or am I just being paranoid about bacteria...">

 Casey, I wouldn't worry too much about the bacteria in your mouth for
the most part (assuming normal hygiene and not too many bad habits).
 Philling the tube with water is quite easy. Hold both ends of the
syphon (siphon) at the same level (easy if you hold both ends in the
same hand) and use a hose or tap to fill it (use a little pressure).
Keep both ends at the same level at all times. Either squeeze
(or squeese (Au?)) or plug the outlet end while you shove (or insert)
the inlet end into the fermenter or whatever. The trick is not to let
the level at either end get out of balance. This is not a difficult 
thing to accomplish with very little practice.
I can't help with the saliva looking stuff. Hopefully it wasn't green
and sticky looking (couldn't resist it).

>Steve Lacey asks about ppppg confusion>

>Malt, sugar, rice etc have a rating for the contribution they make to
>the gravity of the brew. In the US, it is measured in points (i.e.
>hydrometer reading points on the scale of 1.000 to 1.100 or thereabouts)
> per pound (of grain) per gallon (of wort). etc., etc. etc.>
>My question was, are Aussie or other metrically advantaged brewers like
>me in that they don't "give a rats arse" (thanks, Dave) about getting 
>this value right, or do they do conversions, test their grain, and 
>otherwise obsess about the actual versus potential extraction from 
>their grain? 

Most brewers don't really give a rat's ass (WTF is an arse) about those
values because they are pretty much known quantities. If one has an 
accurate idea of his/her (I don't believe I did that) extraction rate,
the the rule of thumb takes effect (so many whatevers of fermentables,
and I do everything the same, equals so many whatevers of extraction).
I realize (realise?) that any measuring system not based on decimal or
the powers of 10 (isn't it the same thing?) can be confusing (or is it
confuzing) in many parts of the world. Whatever measuring system is
used, anal is anal. If I achieve 75% that is nice, if I achieve 85% 
that is nice too. If I achieve 100%, then I'm shit faced when I take 
the reading. In all cases the beer is good. 
I like Promash and it appears to be very accurate.

>Bill wrote
>subject: Cleaning SS brewpot

>I'd like to thank all of the people who e-mailed me with solutions to my
>scorched pot problem....  The most frequently recommended method was oven
>cleaner, which I luckily already had in the house.  Two overnight soaks,
>followed by scrubbing with a SS scouring pad, removed all of the burnt-on
>residue.  A slight stain remains but I can live with that.  I am also going
>to refrain from brewing for a few weeks to let the stainless steel
>passivate.

Bill, lighten up. A slight stain will never hurt unless you come home
late
one evening and SWMBO notices it and doesn't believe you spilled a
milkshake in your lap (I wonder what Phil tells Jill?). Next you'll
start 
fretting about the the respective yield of various grains.

>Eph Fithian asks
>We are currently on vacation in Boulder, CO, waiting for the last
>batch of homebrew to mature in Pennsylvania. Anything beerwise worth
>visiting around Boulder?

Try visiting Charlie P. If he's not home, the Coors Brewery is not too
far away (Golden, Co.). Other than that, I can't think of anything to
see 
or do in the beer capital of Colorado.
Regards,
Hank (having a bit of fun)


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:54:47 -0700
From: "Seog Lee" <seoglee at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: whirlpool/first wort hopping/why aerate

> Chas. Papazian recommends whirlpooling and siphoning off hot
> break trub from
> the wort while it is still hot, using a stainless cane rigged
> with a copper
> scrubber as a filter. He then recommends reboiling the dang
> wort for a short
> time to resanitize.

Charlie Papazian has done a lot for the world of homebrewing, but he has
also put a lot of crap out there.  Brewers yeast does not respire
aerobically
in any phase of fermentation, and his "HBU" idea come to mind. Follow his
directions, it will help you make a good beer, but don't take all the words
as
truth.

Whirlpooling works great, and should be done routinely.  If done properly,
it will
concentrate the trub to the center of the kettle, and help in racking off
the wort
with minimal loss.  Something that Sierra Nevada and Pyramid routine do
can't be
all bad.


- ---about first wort hopping---
>Improved hop character and smoother bittering.

Explain?  Isn't most hop character derived from volatile hop oils?  Thus
adding hops
at the first pump over is a waste of your resources?  You would be better
served adding
more late hops or dry hopping.


- ---Why aerate?---
>I have seen in print and been told by knowledgeable people that after
>transferring the wort to the primary fermentation vessel that I should
>stir it or shake it to aerate prior to fermentation.

Contrary to popular belief, brewers yeast do not aspire aerobically.
They do not have a proper mitochondria.  That's another discussion...
But oxygen is an important factor in yeast health and reproduction.
They use it in lipid formation.  Without proper aeration, you can have
sluggish or stuck fermentations, and even off flavor production (esters,
higher alcohols, etc).

>Then when transferring to a secondary or filling bottles I read and
>heard that aeration is bad for the beer (final product).  Is there a
>hard and fast rule or do conditional statements apply?

The yeast at that point is no longer interested in reproduction due to the
excess population and lack of nutrients.  Thus, the uptake of oxygen is less
rapid, allowing for oxidation of the beer.


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 05:39:32 -0400
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: Huge unhealthy fridge

Greetings folks,

 In HBD #3407, Scott Morgan asked for help to diagnose his newly 
acquired "huge fridge". 

 I don't have much info to work with so I'll stick to the basics. Be 
sure the compressor is running. It's possible for a fridge to sound 
like it's running when it actually isn't.  Condenser and evaporator 
fans are often loud enough to mask compressor noise. I use a large 
screwdriver as a stethoscope by placing the driver bit end against 
the compressor "can" and put my ear to the handle.

 If the compressor is running, the thermostat and associated 
electrical bits are probably ok and either the system has a leak and 
has lost the refrigerant charge, or the compressor is simply worn 
out. If the fridge has a fan-cooled condenser, it's also possible to 
have a bad fan motor or dust bunnies in the condenser fins.

 If the compressor is not running, there is a problem with the 
thermostat or other electrical component, or the compressor motor 
is bad. If the fridge is a frost-free model, look for a defrost timer and 
manually advance it through a couple of cycles. There is usually a 
slot in the timer where a screwdriver can be inserted and turned to 
manually advance the timer. Timer failures are common.

 Check out the fridge with the info I've posted here and let us know 
what you find.

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 07:53:35 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: mailorder brew shops

I buy most of my brew gear local, especially whole sacks of grain and yeast
but occassionally I get something mailorder that I can not find here or have
ordered.

I bought my mash tun and false bottom from homebrew adventures in NC.  they
were quick, cheap, and everything was good.

I bought all my fridge door taps and some random crazy belgian specialty
grains from brewers resource out in CA.  quick, good, and free shipping on
orders more than $50.

I bought my grain scales, some hops, and some maris otter hugh baird grain
from hoptech in CA.  again, quick, good, and pretty reasonable shipping
(free I think).

MOst places limit the amount of grain you can get shipped if they have free
shipping over a certain amount.  15 to 20 lbs worth usually still counts
under free shipping.  shipping sacks of grain can get prohibitively
expensive for it tends to be $15 to 20 per sack.  however, I keep
considering it so I can get some Beestons Maris Otter to check out.....

I'm brewing my rye ale today if the weather doesn't look pleasant for
kayaking - some rye, some munich, tiny bit of crystal, mostly muntons pale
grain.  wyeast 1275 thames valley stepped up, and willamette hops to 40 IBU
or so.  it should be a good one for Indian summer nights in the fall here in
upstate NY.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:12:54 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: specialty grains and rogue

While I do tend to limit my use of specialty grains, I have to admit that I
agree with Aaron Perry about Rogue having some fantastic beers (don't know
if they make many I don't like). Brutal Bitter is of course quite heavenly
:)  

I think part of it is the skill that a brewer has in combining the best of
complementary tastes or combining tastes that completely contradict each
other in terms of helping the brew.  Both are good when skillfully done.

When done poorly, you just get a mouthfull of jumbled flavors that taste,
well, yucky.  For example great amounts of crystal in pale ales or huge
amounts of black patent in stouts.  Just not quite the right amount of the
complementary flavors......  However, moderate these and they work
perfectly.  This tends to be why folks use little bits of everything
(besides to clean out the cabinet which I tend to do every few months,
especially for hops).  Nothing like a little sweetness (crystal, carapils),
little malt (munich), maybe some chocolate (obviously chocolate malt), in a
browne ale or little raisin (special B) in a belgian strong, or perhaps even
a hint of smokiness in a barley wine for complexity.

Keep experimenting and for gods sake, make brews that you like at the very
least.  if others like them or you want to brew to style, thats okay too.

Pete czerpak
albany, NY 


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:42:17 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag at doli.state.va.us>
Subject: Re: Pap's bad info

Brad McMahon from down under posted regarding:

>> As much as Charlie P. gives us some misleading information

>Actually he gives very little bad information and his books
>have stood the test of time. The only one thing I can think of
>is his use of those horrible glass carboys as primary fermenters.
>Luckily they are as rare as hens teeth down here. 

My first 7 brews all had a "wet cardboard" off-taste after two
weeks of bottle conditioning. I used Pap's suggested procedure 
of pouring hot wort from the boil kettle, through a funnel, 
into the carboy.  The carboy had 2 gal cold water which mixed 
with the hot wort.

I posted the problem to the HBD and received a reply from 
George & Lori Fix, suggesting that pouring the hot wort through
the funnel and through the air was resulting in hot side
aeration and causing the off taste.

I changed that ONE aspect of my brewing procedure and cooled 
the wort in the kettle to 75F  before transferr to the carboy 
(I used two 2 liter plastic bottles of water which I had pre 
frozen then sanitized in dilute chlorox)

Result, no more "wet cardboard" off taste!!   My beer tasted 
better than some brewpub offerings I had sampled.   I was on 
my way!

Bottom line, if I had not  found the cause of the problem, 
which was the result of Pap's bad info, I probably would
not have continued to brew!  I too would have thought 
"homebrew tastes like shit".

Mike Maag,  Shenandoah Valley






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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:50:09 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Ayinger yeast

"Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> asked about the Ayinger yeast
that's making such a hit is Australia:

>any hope of getting that Ayinger yeast up to the US to WhiteLab or Wyeast
>for propogating and distribution?

Yeast Culture Kit Co. mailto:YCKCo at aol.com has had it, or at least a great
lager yeast from Aying, for three years or so, although it isn't listed on
their online catalog http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/yckco/yckcotbl.html.
It's my favorite lager yeast by far.  Dan McConnell, owner of YCKC and
former HBDer (when his life wasn't so hectic) has been extremely busy with
his day job as a reasearch scientist at University of Michigan and was way
behind on yeast business, but I think he's caught up.

Now I'm outa here to Cape Cod for a week, about 750 miles east Rennerian
(or do I take 0,0 Rennerian with me?).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 05:54:58 -0700
From: "Hull, Ted" <THull at Brwncald.com>
Subject: 

In correction to what Mark said, I think Mort Subite is actually *northeast*
of the Grand Place. If it's still there, Porte Noire was a really neat beer
bar located in the basement of a building at 67 Rue Des Alexiens. If you're
walking from the Grand Place, it's probably a 10 or 15 minute walk (you pass
piss-boy, keep going, and then hang a left up the hill). And we wouldn't
have made it there if it weren't for Peter at Delices et Caprices, which was
a block off the Grand Place, to the southwest. Bear in mind, though, that my
last visit was in 1998.

Also, don't forget to have some pommes frites! There's something about those
Belgian fries (probably lard) that makes them wonderful. We especially
enjoyed the Sauce Andalouse, which is a spicy mayo-based sauce with tomatoes
and pimento. The Sauce Americain, on the other hand, was a disappointment-
almost a sarcastic interpretation of ketchup, but made with mayo.

I thought http://www.iti.fr was real helpful in checking my directions, and
there's an English option too (though I didn't see it until after I'd
checked my directions for this). The (Java, I think) setup that scrolls the
map in front of you was way cooler than Yahoo maps. Have fun!

Ted Hull
Atlanta, Georgia


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