---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  probably the world's finest homebrew supply ("Lynne O'Connor")
  Market Survey Participants Needed! (Ken Schwartz)
  Re: On Perceptions aand Other Such stuff... (Sonny Baca)
  Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn (Edward Doernberg)
  Re: Charlie vs. Noonan (BShotola)
  Re: Captain! Newbie delurking off starboard bow! (Edward Doernberg)
  question on chloramines ("Graham Sanders")
  Ayinger yeast, yeast storage, FWH ("Graham Sanders")
  question: filling the space under the false bottom ? (darrell.leavitt)
  re: Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Newbie delurking off starboard bow! (Brad McMahon)
   ("Wayne Love")
  Lauter Tun Design (Ken Schwartz)
  IBU assays ("Louis K. Bonham")
  Good lauter tun candidate ("Lyga, Daniel M.")
  Chloramines, well water,pseudo-decoction,delta SG (Dave Burley)
  Kegging Equipment Help (spostek)
  Spent grains on lawn (John Adsit)
  HSA & the common myth ("Doug Moyer")
  An all beer-related post! ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Cooler outlet/Spent Hops-Poisonous to Dogs/Budvar Water ("Jay Wirsig")
  Jeff Renner, you da bomb! (Project One)
  Plans for a RIMS or HERMS system (Dryw Blanchard)
  Papazian & Digest Crybabies ("Tony Clifton")
  IMHR (Road Frog)
  re: supplier plug, decoction challenge and Papazian ("Brian Lundeen")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:11:38 -0500
From: "Lynne O'Connor" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: probably the world's finest homebrew supply

On digest #3408 Jason Henning made false statements regarding St. Pats
and me.

1)Jason Henning has never dealt with me or my business.
2)Jason Henning FALSELY asserts a lengthy record on rcb and hbd of
problems with St. Pats.
3)Jason Henning ignores a lengthy record of complimentary  posts
regarding St Pats.

I certainly hold the record for the most self-righteous
ticked-off non-customers (and hyphens in one sentence).

HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY ORDERED
FROM ST PATS HAVE LODGED A COMPLAINT ON ALL FORUMS COMBINED?  I can
honestly only think of 5 of which 2 are legitimate.  I shipped over
15,000 boxes in the past year alone and well over a 50,000 during the period in
which these complaints appeared.

First let me deal factually with Jason Henning's misrepresentations.
Someone did call me asking for barleywine bottles for the AHA
conference.  I have never had barleywine bottles (until 9 am this
morning ironically) and suggested they call a brewery that uses small bottles.
I specifically mentioned Rogue. Whomever I spoke with apparently took my
advice, because they ultimately got bottles from Abita.

For the record, I donated 1500 lbs of malt to the MCAB this year.
I also donated 1 ton to the Bluebonnet this year and 1500 lbs last
year. I offered 1 ton to the AHA conference of 1999 and it
was refused.  My offer of 1500 lbs to the Dixie Cup this year was
also refused.  I have NEVER refused a request for a donation to
any competition anywhere in the country--except I  can't donate
something I don't have.

Can we expect all shops that fail to donate FREE stuff to Jason Henning
to be attacked on the digest now?  What a sweetheart.

Now what any of this has to do with my mail order business I'll let
Jason Henning explain.  What is this guy's REAL problem?

You will find in the rcb and  hbd  archives vitriolic attacks
from several people who, like Jason Henning, have never been customers
of St. Pats.  You will find hate groups, disguised as discussions, started
by people who have never ordered from St. Pats.  You will find one
person who lost his job and another who was reprimanded as a result of the
virulence.

Just as with Jason Henning, these individuals validated their own
baseless attacks by  referring to  equally baseless  posts.

One more thing about ole Jason.  Jason proclaims his support for his
local homebrew shop, but then ordered not one, but 2 bags of grain mail
order.  DUH??! !

p.s.  Coincidentally, I got 4 pallets of the 6.3 oz clear glass, very 
heavy-duty
barleywine bottles (not green champagne bottles) this morning.  Can 
be capped or corked.  $14.75/cs + shipping.  I don't patronize 
customers with "free shipping".

There is a Santa Claus, there is a tooth fairy, there is "free
shipping".

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:44:35 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Market Survey Participants Needed!

Hello all!  Been reading along but have been busy with lots of other
stuff and haven't posted much.  I do have a favor to ask, though.  It
has a bit of a commercial flavor so just scroll down if you think this
is not appropriate for the HBD.

<crass commercial mode = on>

I might be able to offer "kits" for the Son of Fermentation Chiller,
complete with die-cut panels and pre-wired controls.  All you would have
to do is assemble using the supplied adhesive -- no cutting or drilling
required.  I need your help to decide if this would be a worthwhile
venture.  Please take a moment to fill out my survey, even if you have
already built one.  And even if you would not buy such a kit at any
price, that would be useful information for me.

Browse my webpage for the link and information on the Chiller, or go
directly to the survey at http://www.geocities.com/kenbobbrewsbeer .

Thank you very much.

<crass commercial mode = off>

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:24:37 -0600
From: Sonny Baca <baca2000 at zianet.com>
Subject: Re: On Perceptions aand Other Such stuff...

Bob,                            Check out the 3 Stooges in "Beer Barrel
Polecats" for an older home brewing stereotype...



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:43:08 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn

grain maby, i put mine in the garden.

hops only if you dont have a dog.

hops are poisonus to dogs so dont put them on any part of the gaden your dog
(if you have one) can get to.

Edward



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 04:05:38 EDT
From: BShotola at aol.com
Subject: Re: Charlie vs. Noonan

Hey Paul, I am the Bob in your first quote and also the author of the second 
quote. I am in agreement with you about Charlie and have brewed many good 
beers (at least to my taste) using his books. His writing style in NCJoB got 
me into the sport a decade ago, and many of my friends as well. In My Humble 
Opinion (but perhaps not that of SWMBO) Charlie rocks the house!

After a long dry spell away from brewing, I have leapt back into it and am 
now riding the whole grain train and so as an extension of my earlier gusto, 
recently bought The Home Brewer's Companion and read it cover to cover a 
couple times. 

Being basically lazy at heart, I was a bit bummed after reading the section 
on Trub and Hop Removal, pgs. 142 - 148 in the Companion.  I was perplexed to 
think that in order to make a better lager I might have to do anything more 
with my hot wort than drop the chiller into it and then funnel into a carboy. 
I still am.  Perhaps I was too strong in saying Charlie recommends reboiling 
siphoned hot wort. Let's take a look. 

His words (p148) are, "At this point, while marveling at all that stuff you 
just filtered out, you may bring the wort back to a boil for a very short 
time to sanitize it. Then proceed with chilling the wort and transferring it 
to the fermenter."

Papazian does introduce the topic in his typical fashion, pointing out that 
the issue of trub removal is debatable, but worthy of consideration. He gives 
pros and cons, and says above all, don't worry. He does not force the issue.

One of the things I like about Papazian is that he recognizes that people 
brew for different reasons, tapping into the spirit and mystery of 
fermentation. His books take you stepwise into better techniques. Having read 
Papazian, I am primed to read Noonan. I doubt it would have happened 
vice-versa.

Watching beer ferment is still a thrill to me. My first batch was poured into 
the carboy in the garage, where a buddy topped off from the garden hose and 
we pitched a packet of dry yeast into a ridiculously hot fermenter. That was a
t around 3 in the afternoon and by midnight I was dancing around the 
fermenter, beer bubbling like mad.  We had a party as soon as the beer was 
ready, maybe a little flat, and drank all of it.  Among those who drank the 
brew (oh yes, replete with phenolics, diacytl, and so on) three went on to 
become home brewers, and another to brew at the Edgefield Brewery (Troutdale, 
OR). All of us started with the comfort of Papazian's, "Relax. Don't Worry. 
Have a Homebrew!"

The friend who held the garden hose is now a Ph.D. in Geology and makes a 
fine all grain stout. He brews to relax and rarely uses his hydrometer. Go 
figure.  

Best Regards,

Bob Shotola
Yamhill, Oregon



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:26:20 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: Re: Captain! Newbie delurking off starboard bow!

That bleach shouldn't be a problem there wasn't that much but in future use
vodka. It remains active longer and will never affect the beer.

By my calculations your Sg reading was way to high. Should be 1.043. This
used a basic number for the contribution of liquid malt extracts (LME) so it
could vary a lot but not that much.

Normally I would suspect you forgot to ster the fermenter after toping it
up. but you seed you shook it. maybe you didn't shake it well enough and
there was still more concentrated wart on the bottom than the top. It
doesn't mater too much.

Cold brake is little lumps that form as the brew cools quickly, if you cool
it slowly they wont form until you chill the beer and they may make it
cloudy. doesn't affect taste.

You cant bulk prime in the primary (or secondary for that mater) you need to
transfer to a bolting bucket (think what would happen to all the trub in the
bottom of the fermenter when you mix in the primmings). and add the
primmings there, provided your beer is finished you can do this striate out
of primary.

personally I bottle prime. Each 375ml stubby takes 1/2 tsp and each 750ml
long neck takes 1tsp.use ordinary table sugar there isn't enough to affect
the flavour.

aside from not putting any primmings  in 2 bottles in 10 batches i never had
inconsistent priming. the choice is yours.

your unsanitised scissors did increase your chance of infection. I estimate
by 0.00000264% ie negligible.

Hot side aeration (HSA) is something to be avoided but not to stress over.
While that splashing should be minimised in future you will likely not
notice the effect.

As to batch size you can make any size batch you want. given your 19L kettle
a 10-15L batch would be good allowing you to do a full wort boil. it also
allows you to use cheaper frequenters.

i make 15L all grain baches now (the intent being make 30L wort and use 2
yeasts). I got some 20L buckets from a donut shop (previously held icing)
and attached taps i got at the brew shop. Each fermenter $7.50 AU, the brew
store will also sell you rubber grummets and airlocks for the lids.

I'm glad you stated out right. 

Edward Doernberg 
Perth western Australia





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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:07:23 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: question on chloramines

G'day all

Well I have a question on all this Chlorine/Chloramine stuff. Now my water
is only chlorinated (thank god), so I just let it stand for 48 hours and
away i go.

I can sort of understand all this debate about how stable chloramine and
while opinions vary from yes it will go with standing to other opinions that
you need to airate it.

Now so far the worst (or most conservative) opinion seems to be if you boil
the water for an hour it will be driven off, neutralised, whatever.

So my question is - given the most conservative opinions of chloramines,
that it can be removed by boiling for a hour, does this actually concern a
mash brewer, or a pure extract brewer.

I have never had to worry about this with my water, but am I missing
something here.  Is there a undesirable chemical reaction that chloramines
could cause in the mash or boil.  Or a ph problem. There seems "no worries"
about any carry over into the fermenter.

Shout

Graham Sanders





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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:07:35 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Ayinger yeast, yeast storage, FWH

G'day all

Well a further responses as i wade thru the back issues.

Pete Czerpak wrote:
>any hope of getting that Ayinger yeast up to the US to WhiteLab or Wyeast
>for propogating and distribution?
Brad said

If you have difficulties tracking it down, I'm sure Phil, Graham
or myself can play "swappies" with you.

I'm sure we can arrange something, after all thats whats this hobby is
about.  Who said it has to stop in the sharing of information.  I dont mind
sharing other stuff if you cant get it.  But i dont want to supply the Nth
American market.  I suspose if someone puts there hand up over their to
cultivate the Phil drug induced Ayinger yeast and share we can arrange a
sample to head back over to the States. I am happy to do it at least. But
can you lot handle owing one back to an Aussie?

Oh , nearly didn't have a culture to give.  During a break in the footy
finals I raced to the bar for a drink. Shit tap dry.  I can hear excitment
on the TV so I raced to the fridge and opened it to get the back up bottles.
Well i knocked over one.  Now my yeast cultures are stored in Sterile water
test tubes, and anyway I broke two on them.  Looked at the first, oh crap an
Ayinger culture.  Shock set in. Whats the second one.  Lucky for me it was a
belgain abby ale yeast.  I normally dont keep two tubes of each culture as i
have over 20 different cultures, but the brewing gods were kind.  the two
that broke were the few i actually had back up cultures.  Thankyou Saint
Arnold.

With all this debate on yeast storage, I was also wondering how many
actually use the 'Sterile water" method.  To me its by far the best.  I have
kept cultures like this for three years (and still going), although I
reculture after two years to be safe.  I just cant work out why more people
dont use it.  Any takers.

On this debate on FWH, I have tried this extensively and yes it works, but I
do have a problem with it.  To those who have tried it, I notice there is
like an extra flavour that seems to come from FWH.  If you over FWH this can
almost become objectionable.  In fact I dont like it in my light lagers.
Whatever this flavour is, its seems ideal in English ales in general, and
other strongly flavoured beers, but to me it doesn't go at all well with
lightly flavoured lagers.

has anyone else experienced this?

Shout

Graham Sanders

Shout

Graham Sanders



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:32:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: question: filling the space under the false bottom ?

I love the Polarware lauter-tun that my understanding wife recently 
purchased for me.  It has saved me MUCH work....and at least one hour
of time over the old zapap type setup.
However, I have disovered, as was mentioned to me by one reader here, that
the space under the ss false bottom holds a full gallon...so...the 
yield goes down a bit.  Now I am thinking (although another pound or two
of grain does really not bother me that much...it is more of a challenge
to me) thinking of how to use up some of this space....

In the old setup (zapap like...ie grain bag in bottling bucket) I put
a couple of pre-heated kithen plates into the bottom...before the bag
(and plastic false bottom on top of that) and this serverd the dual
purpose of both using up some of the space, and helping in keeping
the tun warm (I then pre-heated with boiling water....just before
moving the grain into the tun)...

Well.. had anyone any ideas as to what is the best way to fill this 
space under the ss false bottom in a Polarware 10 gallon tun/kettle?
Perhaps some pre-boiled/ cleaned flat rocks?  Perhaps some marbles?

 ..
darrell


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:10:34 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn

Dana Edgell asks:
I am currently house-shopping and will have a lawn for the first time. I have
been wondering about spreading my spent grains around the lawn as fertilizer.
Has anyone years of experience doing this and any advice?

DO NOT SPREAD HOPS ON LAWN

Sorry to shout, but this can be very dangerous to dogs. My mind isn't working
clearly yet this morning, so I don't recall what the problem is called, but
hops can be toxic to dogs. And because they are covered in the sweet wort,
they are very attractive.

I put the spent grains & hops into my compost pile (which is closed) and then
after they are broken down they are very beneficial to garden, shrubbery,
lawn, etc. You can easily make a closed compost pile from some wire
fencingmade into a ring/cylinder with some sort of top. As long as you don't
put in any meat wastes it really won't smell much at all. Or if you don't want
to do that, just dig the spent grains/hops into the ground around your
plants - do this carefully to avoid root damage. Once buried they'll break
down pretty quickly.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:49:02 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Newbie delurking off starboard bow!

Hi Matthew,
	Welcome to the wonderful world of brewing, again!
> back in those
>days before the Web (Gopher, anybody?) there wasn't really any way for me to
>find out about it.

Ah those were the days!



Enough blubbering - questions!!

>I think some of the 4ml bleach/litre
>water sanitising solution I'd put in the airlock was sucked in to the brew.
>Should I be worried?  

No. Although you might imagine you can taste the miniscule amount
of bleach you know is in there.
Some people use vodka, I use tap water in a sanitised airlock.
I've had no problems.


>I took my OG hydrometer reading from the spigot at the bottom of the
>fermenter after I'd pitched my yeast and agitated the wort.  I thought it
>seemed a little high - 3.4kg/7.5lbs of hopped extract in 23 litres/6 gallons
>of water at 19oC/66.2oF with no other adjuncts read a whopping 1.062!

3.4kg of extract in 23l will give you an OG of about 1.043


>What does a 'cold break' look like?  

Unless you are mashing it is unlikely you will get much cold break
particularly with the methods you are using.
It looks just like hot break - white globs usually.
Don't worry about it. It will not adversely affect your beer
if you fail to remove it, I've never done it.

>I'm not racking to a secondary for my first brew.  Is it possible to safely
>bulk-prime a primary before bottling? 

You will stir up all the spent yeast, trub, hop remnants
back into your beer. Don't!
Either tranfer the beer into a secondary fermenter for batch
priming or bottle prime from the primary.

>Does an FG reading have any effect on deciding
> how much sugar you should use to prime?

No. Deciding on the amount of sugar is deciding how bubbly you want the
beer - i.e. the amount of dissolved CO2. You would want your IPA
to have only a little priming sugar as English Ales have very low
carbonation. Some people are not used to low carbonation though
and may prefer it to be more lively.

>Is dry yeast susceptible to contamination?  I snipped the packets with
>unsanitised scissors. :(

You would be very unlucky to infect your beer this way unless the 
scissors were extremely grotty and a lot of the yeast touched the
cut you made. I would doubt even then you would get an infection.
Start the cut with a pair of scissors and then tear the packet open
if you are worried.

>When cooling the wort (ice in a sink with a tap gushing icy cold Canberra
>water all over one side of the pot - worked a treat!), I was stirring it
>quite a bit.  Is it safe to splash a little at this stage (it was pretty
>aggressive stirring), or is it a no-no until it's cooled below 26oC/80oF?

Gentle Gentle! You can get quite a speedy whirlpool going with no
splashing.
Once the wort is cooled - say <35C, then you can splash it like mad
into your fermenter - you can't get enough oxygen into the wort at this
stage.
You can continue to slosh the wort around for up to 24 hours after the 
yeast has been added and it will only help.

> Can you brew smaller (say, 11.5 litre/2.5
>gallon) batches just by halving the recipe?

Yes.

All the best,

Brad McMahon
Aldgate, SA, Australia


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:37:01 -0300
From: "Wayne Love" <lovews at auracom.com>
Subject: 

It appears after reading the last few post that it must be open season, once
again,  for Charlie P and his books. I've been only brewing for about a year
now and don't pretend to be any where near the level that most of the
critics on this board believe they are at, and although I have evolved past
some of his techniques, I still would not hesitate to recommend his book to
any new brewer. His books are an easy read and an adequate base or beginning
to grow upon.
On another note, Ken Miller asks for the price of beer(macro & micro) in
other areas other than the U.S.in order to judge motivation of homebrewing.
I live in Rothesay, New Brunswick, Canada. A case of 24 12oz bottles of
macro beer sells for approx. $32 Cdn.or approx $22 US. Micro beer is usually
50% higher again.  The cost of our macro beer is approx. twice what you pay
and I'm sure the price plays a significant role in one's first attempt in
homebrewing, however it is small part of what keeps most successful
homebrewers continuing at it.Similar to homebrewers everywhere, its the
enjoyment of the hobby that holds us for the long term.
Before I get back to work,(I usually read the digest at lunch hour) I
planted hops for the first time this year. The plants(fuggles and perle) did
better than I expected for the first year, reaching overall height of about
12 feet with a healthy amount of cones that are approx. 1 1/2 inches long.
My question is when do I harvest and what is the easiest method of preparing
or drying them?
thanks
wayne



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:04:36 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Lauter Tun Design

Bill Fishburn asks about lauter tun design.

Bill, I use a mash/lauter tun made from a Gott/Rubbermaid 7-gal beverage
cooler and a copper tubing manifold (
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/files/mashtun.gif ). Note that the 7-gal
cooler may not be available, I haven't seen it since the year I bought
mine, but either a 5-gallon or 10-gallon should work (the 5 is probably
on the small side).  You can mash in it but if you prefer to mash and
lauter separately, you still have the advantage of an insulated
container to help hold the heat during the sparge.

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:37:43 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: IBU assays

Patrich Finery writes:

>i've read that HPLC and/or spectrophotometry are
>accepted methods for determining the amount of
>alpha acids in beer. spec measurements are
>apparently made on toluene/MeOH extracted beer.

I'm afraid you're confusing the assays here.  The tolune / MeOH extraction
method (followed by HPLC / GC / spec analysis of the solvent) is used for
assaying alpha / beta acid levels in *hops*.  In beer itself, you don't
assay alpha / beta acid levels (the acids are, of course, isomerized in the
boil), but instead the industry standard is to measure "bitterness units"
using spec measurements of an isooctane solution (see below).  [There *is*
an ASBC method for measuring iso-alpha acid levels in the beer itself
through HLPC, but it's not what is typically used to figure out how bitter
the beer is and hop utilization rates.]

> what wavelength is standard for the procedure?
>also, what is generally used for a standard for these
> measurements? i assume such standards can be
>purchased or at least the components purchased so
> that i could make them myself. no doubt test runs
> using commercial brews with known IBU levels
> would be useful.

Here's the procedure for measuring beer bitterness (from ASBC Method of
Analysis Beer-23(a)):

Using 10ml volumetric pipette, introduce a minute amount of octyl alcohol
into the tip of the pipette, and then take a 10ml sample of chilled
carbonated beer.  Transfer to a 50ml centrifuge tube.  Add 1ml of 3N
hydrochloric acid and 20ml of spectrophotometric grade isooctane
(2,2,4-trimethylpentane, A275<0.001 in a 1cm cuvette).  Shake vigorously for
15 minutes on a wrist action shaker (or by hand for about 10 minutes).

Centrifuge to separate the phases.  (If a gel has formed, break it up with
the tip of a pipette and then spin it again.)

Using a 10mm quartz cuvette, measure the absorbance of the isooctane phase
at 275nm (spec zeroed on a sample of isooctane).  Absorbance at 275nm x 50
give the IBU level.  This test should be run in at least duplicate,
preferably triplicate.

As far as standards go, Ralph Olsen at Hopunion informs me that there are
commercial IBU standards available.  Personally, I just use Coors Light
(9.25 IBU's, +/- 1 IBU) to periodically make sure that my procedures are up
to snuff.  (If you're asking about calibration standards for the spec, write
me and I'll send a summary on the ASBC method for this.)

BTW, for all of you out there who think that you need a research lab to run
this assay, you can put together a guerrilla lab that'll handle it for not
much cash (good club project, IMHO).  Although new UV spec do cost several
thousard bucks new, working surplus UV spec's can be had for not that much
cash (I got mine for $20, but I see good working ones on LabX routinely go
for under $300).  Feel free to write me for ideas on this.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at hbd.org




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:41:24 -0400
From: "Lyga, Daniel M." <lygadm at pweh.com>
Subject: Good lauter tun candidate

Bill,

	I was just thinking... if you are using some sort of manifold
resting on the bottom of the cooler, as long as the outlet of your exit
tubing is below the level of the cooler, the siphon effect should remove
most of the wort in the cooler.  You may have the problem you describe using
just an outlet that far off the cooler bottom.  I searched the web and found
some info in Brewing Tech, but I think John Palmer has some similar
information in his on-line book; can't remember the link though.
	I did build a latuer tun using a 48 quart igloo chest with a 1/2"
stiff copper manifold which worked well, but for my batch sizes, I think the
grain bed depth was too small and affected my efficiency.  I am now in the
process of converting a Rubbermaid 5 gallon round cooler and I am thinking
about using the EZ Masher or maybe some soft 1/2" copper.  I didn't have any
problem getting most of the wort out of my first tun, even though the outlet
was over 1" (maybe closer to 2") off the bottom.

	Hope this helps.

Dan Lyga
Harwinton, CT.


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:13:48 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Chloramines, well water,pseudo-decoction,delta SG

Brewsters:

OK. a Summary of AJ's comments are = with commercial chloramines you need
to use an activated charcoal filter. With chlorine bringing to the boil
will remove chlorine but a very long boil for chloramines makes it not a
useful method. Now that makes intuitive sense.
- -----------------------------------
David Hall has hard water and at least it is partially temporarily hard as
he gets precipitates in his hot water tank. His water is also green, I
think but must admit I was puzzled by his adding acid and expecting a
change?.  I suspect you are removing copper from your pipes ( I would call
this color blue) or some other metal ( ferrous iron{dissolves copper} or
nickel {unlikely})  from somewhere. If I were you, as the water comes into
the house I would add an aerator to remoev CO2 and oxidize the ferrous to
ferric, and get a water softener pronto. This will save you clogging up
your water heater, and dissolving and clogging your pipes and faucets as
well as ingesting the water which may have harmful amounts of minerals over
a long tiome. For your brewing, add a Reverse Osmosis (RO) unit ( $200  at 
Home Depot) under your kitchen sink to reduce the sodium level to zero and
give you excellent drinking , cooking and brewing water. Be sure to take
Ca/Mg mineral tablets as a portion of your minerals comes from your water.
RO and softened water have none..  
- --------------------------------------
Charley. If you wish to avoid the decoction method use the same temperature
profile but just do a step-mash adding boiling water and heating to get the
temperature holds. Be sure your grist is fine enough.
- --------------------------------------
Jim, The "constant" you are hunting for to convert delta (specific gravity)
to alcohol content is really a variable as it is alcohol concentration
dependent.  Pick one specifically useful for beer in the range of alcohol
5-8% and not wine. There are complexish formulas which deal with this
problem over the range 0 -15% or so that you could incorporate easily.
- --------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:23:37 US/Eastern
From: spostek at voicenet.com
Subject: Kegging Equipment Help

I am sure some folks here have had some long drawn
out discussions over the best of the best when it
comes to kegging equipment.  I am in the market to
finally take my first baby step towards relieving
myself of those dreaded bottling duties.

Has anyone had any good or bad experiences with
mail order companies?  Is this something you would
buy only from your local shop?  How much and what
do I need?  I have heard some stories about making
sure you get a new keg, a new CO2 tank, a dual
regulator versus a single one, and what's this
backcheck valve thingy do?  Do I need that?

I guess my last question would be once I get all
this fabulous equipment will it fit in one of
those $150 waist high brown ugly fridges we had
in college or do I need a full size one for just
one keg and a CO2 tank.

Oh and for that matter will a 5 gallon glass
carboy fit in one of those brown fridges?  My next
task after the kegging adventure will be moving
on to lagering.

Thanks for any advice you can spare.  Public or
private e-mails welcome.

Steve
Limerick, PA
spostek at voicenet.com


- ---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail.
      http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:29:31 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Spent grains on lawn

I put spent grains on my lawn earlier this year as an experiment.  I
spread them right out of the lauter tun.  They were not clumped at all,
just spread lightly over a wide area.

It burned the lawn.  Now I compost them.
- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:46:24 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: HSA & the common myth

It seems a bit frustrating that everyone that argues against the possibility
of HSA states the well known "very little oxygen is taken up at higher
temperatures". Folks, we are not concerned about the D.O. (dissolved oxygen)
of the wort. We are concerned with the reactions taken place at higher
temps. As we all know, most (all?) reactions accelerate with rising
temperature. Now, I am not a scientist or a librarian, so I am not making
any statements about the actual reactions and their effect on the beer, but
I am tired of seeing this apples & oranges argument.

Let me reiterate: D.O. goes down as the temperature goes up. While a high
D.O. could provide more available oxygen to the reactions creating the
staling precursors, it is not required for these reactions to occur. Oxygen
does not need to be dissolved in the solution for these reactions to occur.
If you are splashing your mash or pouring your hot wort through the air, the
[???] in the solution is going to react with the oxygen it contacts to form
[????] compounds that lead to staling over time.

The timing and severity of the staling is likely related to the grist
composition, which may make AB's methods irrelevant for most of us.

Now, I don't know how much of a threat HSA really is. Nor do I care. (I
avoid splashing and aeration, but that is primarily because it would require
extra effort and I would rather just have another brew.) But, if you are
going to argue against it, at least try to understand what you're talking
about.


Blather on!
Doug Moyer
(AKA Tha Prickly Comedian)

Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:10:01 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: An all beer-related post!

Dana asked about spreading spent grains and hops on lawn as fertilizer.
First off congratulations on your first lawn-to-be.  Definately beware the
stench.  The most foul, sour stench will appeare in your spent grains by the
next morning.  It's enough to gag a maggot.  It's fine when you can mix it
in with other compost.  Tomatoes and asparagus will love you for it.  I
personally wouldn't want to spread it on my lawn but Pat seems to have
worked out a plan.

+++

Bill Fishburn  was unhappy with the apparent volume loss from insulated
beverage coolers.  I have the "dead volume" marked on all of my containers
because this loss has screwed me up more than once in the past.  For
example, my 5 gallon Igloo cooler has a 1 1/4 quart dead volume when just
using the spigot (no tipping).  I've found that I can effectively reduce
this dead volume in half when using a copper pipe lauter manifold.  Excuse
the mess, but for the visuals please check out:

http://www.pannicke.net/Equipment.htm

The top of the manifold sits below the outlet and the holes are drilled on
the sides of the pipe to increase efficiency and reduce channeling. The
manifold gets pretty close to the bottom and there should not be any pockets
of rich wort left at the end of the sparge session.  If you are doing a
continuous sparge, you'll collect until you hit your end gravity, end pH or
boil volume.  After that you really shouldn't care what is left behind.  If
you do a no-sparge or batch-sparge, you'll have to account for the dead
volume in your yield calculations.

+++

Matt Tolley writes:

>When I picked up the fermenter to move it to its dark, warm resting place,
>there was a change in pressure, and I think some of the 4ml bleach/litre
>water sanitising solution I'd put in the airlock was sucked in to the brew.
>Should I be worried?  It doesn't seem to have hurt the yeast any - I'm more
>worried about off flavours.

I wouldn't worry so much as a few drops of 0.4% household bleach solution
shouldn't have that big of an impact.  I would, however, switch to using
cheap vodka (don't use Kettel One or Absolut for God's sake ;-) better yet,
3 parts grain alcohol diluted with 1 part water.  70% is the best
concentration of alcohol to make an effective sanitizer and ethanol is
natural to beer.  Other alcohols, even denatured alcohol, will work but are
not natural to beer.

+++

Let's cut Charlie P. a little slack.  If it weren't for his efforts, many of
us wouldn't have been exposed to homebrewing at all.  I started using his
books and liquid malt extract to make better homebrew than about 80% of what
is commercially available.  Now I only buy 3 brands of beer.  Guiness Pub
Draught and Harp for those black & tans.  Aaaannnndddd... then there's the
black sheep of the list -  Coors Extra Gold - for fishing.  Why some may
ask?  Let me answer with our fishing trip pep talk.  "Men, we must get our
priorities straight!  Are we here to fish or are we here to drink?!?"
"DRINK!".  $10 30-pack specials help too!  ;-)


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:52:54 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Cooler outlet/Spent Hops-Poisonous to Dogs/Budvar Water

A question was posted regarding coolers for mashing specifically the
problem was that the cooler outlet was too far off the bottom and a lot of
wort would be left behind.  A solution to this problem is ensuring that the
plumbing on the outside of the cooler (that attaches to the slotted
manifold inside the cooler) terminates at  a level below/equal to the
bottom.  This design will siphon the wort from inside the cooler  to the
point where air is sucked into the slotted manifold.

A question was posted about what to do with spent grain/hops.  I have read
(I believe in Zymurgy) that dogs are attracted to spent hops and that they
are poisonous to dogs if they are ingested.  I have no personal experience
to know whether this is true however it is a factor you may wish to take
into consideration when disposing of your spent hops.  I put my spent
grains/hops in a composted - no smell.  Earth worms love spent grains
(cooled of course) - buy some night crawlers and you'll never need to buy
worms to fish with again.

Does anybody have any published data on the water used to brew Budvar?  (I
have asked Lynne O'Conner and she has graciously vollunteered to check into
it through her contacts) but was wondering if anyone has it in their
libraries.  According to Lynne they use their own 300ft Artesian wells as
their source of water so the town Ceske Budejovicky water may be different.




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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:39:06 -0800
From: Project One <project1 at pond.net>
Subject: Jeff Renner, you da bomb!

Just got done reading Jeff's CAP article in the latest Zymurgy.  I just 
have to compliment and thank Jeff for his time and energy in helping to 
insure that the content of Zymurgy is reaching the level we all hope for 
(please, no more of those "Maibock" type things!).  Jeff, if they paid you 
for that article, it wasn't enough.  And if they didn't, then triple kudos 
are due!

		------------>Denny Conn
			   Eugene  OR



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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dryw Blanchard <dryw9680 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Plans for a RIMS or HERMS system

I have been gathering various pieces of equipment with
the hopes that I could assemble it into a RIMS or
HERMS system.  Does anyone have any recommendations
for some home pages that have good plans for these
systems?

Public and private posts are fine by me.

Dryw Blanchard
Chicken Sh*t Homebrew

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:59:50 GMT
From: "Tony Clifton" <cybercrusader at hotmail.com>
Subject: Papazian & Digest Crybabies

Once in a while a voice of "REASON" emerges from the depths of lurkingdom. 
Paul Niebergall in a post states:

<<Sure Charlie has written some things that are questionable, but 99 percent 
of the stuff is good sound advice and highly usable.>>

Paul, I'm with you on that one.  Where's the fricken' books written by all 
you Charlie bashers?  Come on, where are they, I'd like to go buy one!  Have 
you written anything besides your inconsequential banter here on the Digest? 
Crybabies all of 'ya!

Paul, I do take offense however to your statement:

<<Take a look at the costumes
that the two characters are wearing in the picture.
Note the modern decor of the kitchen that they are
standing in.  It was 1972 (guessing) for God's sake.>>

I for one got a closet full of those "costumes" and I ain't changin' for 
nobody! It won't be long before Tony's hip '70's style is mainstream again.

Now for the Aussies.  I love you guys. Don't you let some of my ignorant 
American brethern scare you away from sharing with us your magnificent 
lingo, culture, and style! Those same furless wombats probably couldn't find 
Down Under on a map.  After all, Americans are almost last in the world when 
it comes to geography and foreign culture awareness.  Read their stinkin' 
posts.  Now you know why!

As for some REAL beer discussion.  A few Digests back, Marc Sedam posted 
some interesting revelations relating to mash hopping versus first wort 
hopping?  I haven't seen a damn post (ok, maybe 2) acknowledging his 
opinion.  I for one, think mash hopping is worthy of some serious dicussion. 
  But I guess this topic is way too much brain power for you crybabies to 
deal with.

Go ahead pick on Papazian, you fricken' crybabies!

That's it, I'm done
Tony Clifton

________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: IMHR

Is My Hop Ruined? or Stupid Brewer Trick #1375

Whilst out on the ladder picking hops I had my 
hop holding device (small bucket) resting on the 
"shelf".  My beer was sitting on the top "not a 
step" part of the ladder.  I was standing on the
lower "not a step" when some how I knock the beer
over and into my harvested hops.

I saved half the beer, closed and locked the swing
top.  Strained the beer from the hops and then 
rinsed the hops with water.  Finish the harvest
and put the hops in the attic to dry.

So are my hops ruined?

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:15:44 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: supplier plug, decoction challenge and Papazian

This is the Reader's Digest version of my original posting, which I just
pulled after seeing the length of the queue that is building. Obviously
things are getting busy again, so no point in taking up space with
long-winded speeches. BTW, why does the Digest have to be limited to its
current size?

Anyway, to Glen P's list, I would like to add Paddock Wood (NAJASCYYY) to
the recommended supplier list, expecially for my fellow Canucks. We take a
major hit on shipping when we have to bring something across the border.
First rate service, good product selection, and just a couple of really good
guys to talk to. Their web site is at http://www.paddockwood.com/

Charley Burns issues the decoction challenge:

> Since I'm such a lazy guy, I'd like to take this award
> winning brew and
> remove the double decoction steps and reduce this from a 7
> hour brew down to
> maybe 5 hours.

Have you tried eliminating the lager malt, and using more Munich, and
increasing the boil time to 3 hours? I would like to hear from anyone that
has tried that in place of decoction, and how their results compared.

Paul Niebergall takes me to task for my Pap smear (God, it felt good to get
that one out):

> Brian Lundeen writes:
>
> >Bob, you have many questions but I think they can all be
> >answered with a simple: ignore Papazian. As I said, I've
> >never read him, so I can't comment on his rationale, but
> >I've never heard of a homebrewer doing this.
>
> Now there is some sound advice.   With all due respect,
> if you have not read the Papazian, then you really have
> no basis to pass judgement of that kind.   Sure Charlie has
> written some things that are questionable, but 99 percent
> of the stuff is good sound advice and highly usable.
>
Just to clarify, the ignore Papazian comment was only regarding the posted
advice (whether CP wrote it or not, as you contend, is another matter) about
the hot whirlpooling and reboiling. On that, I think I do have a basis to
pass judgement. I was not condemning his entire body of work, although I
have looked at some of his books (you can't be a homebrewer and not have
ever read some Papazian somewhere) and his style doesn't appeal to me
personally.

Brian



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---