---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Homebrewing on TV - Garrett Oliver (Nathan Kanous)
  HSA and Charlie (Al Korzonas)
  HSA (can't I shut up already?) ("Doug Moyer")
  Book offer ("Tony Clifton")
  Water ("A. J.")
  Swing tops and stuck fermentation (BShotola)
  Sterile water yeast storage ("Graham Sanders")
   ("Stephen Alexander")
  Homebrew cost ("scott")
  Krauzening vs. new yeast charge (dcole)
  Florida Bottle Laws; Clubs & Herding Cats ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Question re: High final gravity in a Stout ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Brewpubs in Pittsburgh? (Julio Canseco)
  RE: Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing (Kelly)
  How does boiling work? ("Drew Avis")
  re:Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing ("Jason Henning")
  A  Question (CRDetail1)
  Propane in the basement - My opinion ("Timmons, Frank")
  Iodiphor Question ("Timmons, Frank")
  Headspace in bottles ("J. Morgan")
  10GAL FERMENTERS (RCAYOT)
  Star San foam ("Richard Sieben")
  Mashmate 1600 (Wimpy48124)
  foaming StarSan / flocculating yeast / dry lager yeast ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:41:39 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Homebrewing on TV - Garrett Oliver

Hey all,
I had the old idiot box on last night (a.k.a., TV, tele, boob tube, etc.) 
and happened to have it set to Food TV.  There was Garrett Oliver of 
Brooklyn Brewing Company in the first row while Emeril prepared "pub 
grub".  I missed the beginning, but I guess that they reviewed the brewing 
process to some extent,and at the close of the show unveiled "Emeril Ale" 
which they seemingly brewed together.  I guess Emeril's a drunk? ;^)
nathan in madison, wi

PS boy oh boy, some people complain about Charlie P, check out Emeril's 
instructions
http://www.foodtv.com/recipes/re-c1/0,1724,6371,00.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:39:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com (Al Korzonas)
Subject: HSA and Charlie


Hello, everyone.

Yes, I'm still around... although I'm behind in reading HBD (I'm caught
up to about May 1999) as you might expect from a sudden increase in family
size.  As it turns out, Marty Nachel (fellow Brewers of South Suburbia club
member) and I were having a discussion that both included the issue of HSA
and the various ways that people look at beer and brewing.   Since they were
very applicable to our discussion he forwarded copies of both Charlie's post
and an excerpt from Phil's post.

First a few comments about Charlie's post.  He was saying how he felt that
his beer came out excellently even if he did introduce some oxygen to hot
wort.  He also pointed to the fact that a lot of commercial breweries on
the other (east) side of the big pond introduce some oxygen when the wort 
is hot.

I did a few taste tests (years ago) on split batches in which one half was
aerated hot and the other only after cooling.  In the limited number of small
batch tests I did, I did not find a significant difference between HSA and
non-HSA, however, I must stress that these tests were preliminary, *limited*
and did not include factors such as high-melanoidin malts or aroma hops of
any kind.

My real-world brewing experiences have indicated that HSA *does* make a
difference in the finished beer.  I never got a chance to finish those tests,
which is why I never published my results.  I do intend to finish them and
they will eventually be published, somewhere.

In my *opinion*, I believe that given the right conditions (I've already
mentioned high levels of melanoidins, e.g. Munich malt) HSA can make a
significant difference in the finished beer.  In other cases, I believe
the differences are subtle, for example, you might have a great hop aroma
for 3 months rather than 2 months, or a slight papery character after 6
months rather than 4 months.  As Charlie has already noted, refrigerating
the beer goes a long way towards slowing any effects of HSA.

As for commercial brewers and Hot-Side Aeration, I'm sure that Charlie will
agree that imported bottles of European beers taste quite a bit different
(read: worse) than fresh examples in the home town of the brewery.  I can't
say that I have any evidence that there is any correlation between HSA and
the "durability" of a beer, but my gut feeling is that those new low-oxygen
systems Charlie mentioned will make beer that travels much better.

Phil writes:
> ...Probably one of the most important things I derived from Charlie's 
>original book was an attitude about making beer.  You don't have to fit into 
>anybody else's square!  In fact you can just laugh at them.
 
 <<snip>>
 
>I'm glad to see that Charlie still seems to hold the same spirit with which 
>he wrote his book.
 
> Without that spirit, homebrewing would be lost to the mechanics and 
> technicians of the hobby.  And believe me, there is no shortage of them!
 

I have to agree with Phil and add that the extreme popularity of homebrewing
is partly a credit to the relaxed (to borrow a phrase from CP) approach to
brewing that Charlie promoted.

I also believe that the extreme popularity of homebrewing is partly due to
the fact that you can to it at any level of complexity that you choose.  There
are some (like some of my Canadian friends) who brew the same kit every week.
They brew quite simply to avoid high beer taxes.   There are some who just
brew various extract recipes.  There are others taking extract brewing to 
new extremes.  Then there are others who brew all-grain, but don't even
bother to take notes.  Finally, there are those who love the science of
brewing... they take cell counts and do viability tests and measure dissolved
oxygen and get all excited at the sight of large stainless steel containers
(espcecially when they are for sale at scrap prices!).  No doubt I've even
missed a few "levels."

What's even better, is that you need not stay in any one of those levels
of complexity.  One week, you can be shopping for surplus hemocytometers
and the next week you can brew an all-extract batch.

Over the years, I've been into photography, sailboarding, music, home
studio recording and r/c model aviation, as well as homebrewing.  Of
all the hobbies I know anything about, I feel that brewing gives you
the most choices as to how simple or how complex you can approach it.
You just gotta love a hobby that gives you so much flexibility and
where the finished product tastes so good!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL (where every beer smells like baby diapers)
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:25:22 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: HSA (can't I shut up already?)

Mr. John Sullivan essentially validates my points while thinking he was
refuting them. This sez to me that I did not do a good job of stating them
in the first place. Sigh.

[QDA] I didn't mean to imply that HSA could occur without oxygen ingress of
some nature. The oxygen needs to contact the compounds or the redox reaction
can't occur. I certainly would not state otherwise. (Although oxygen is not
the only culprit for oxidative reactions, it is the primary bad guy.) My
main intent was to bitch and moan about the folks that repeatedly remark
that HSA is damn near impossible due to the fact that at higher temps,
significantly less oxygen can DISSOLVE in water or wort. It is very true
that DO at higher temps is significantly lower than at room temp or below.

I have no opinion on HSA. Is it a real threat for homebrewers or not? I
dunno.

Assuming HSA does occur to a sufficient level to cause off flavors in a
normal homebrew in a normal storage time frame, the factors to focus on
should not include the DO. Get over that detail. Obviously, oxygen needs to
contact the "stuff" in the wort to form the redox products, and that oxygen
would have to come from rough handling of some nature. But, leave DO out of
it. Dissolved oxygen is a measure of what is retained in the liquid. So
what? If you are splashing your wort through the air, are there compounds in
the wort that are reacting with the oxygen that they briefly contact? If so,
how severe are the effects?

While I admire Doc P's doublemint, I mean spearmint, I am not sure that six
weeks is a sufficient test of the effects. Since my brewing is so limited
this year, I won't attempt a similar mint, but my homebrews are typically
around for substantially longer than six weeks. (I've got a Xmas dubbel from
Nov. 98 on tap. It might have HSA, but the spices are still strong enough to
hide it if it does!)

Am I clear as mud?

Ah, hell.

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:20:57 GMT
From: "Tony Clifton" <cybercrusader at hotmail.com>
Subject: Book offer

In a post addressed to me, Tony Clifton, Brian Lundeen says this:

<<Anyway, thank you Tony, for the kind offer to buy my book. It is:

Troubleshooting Microprocessor-based Systems by Allan H. Robbins and Brian
Lundeen, LC Control Number 86025539, ISBN 0835932494, published by
Prentice-Hall.

Feel free to criticize it, whether you have published a book or not. As an
author, I feel that anything I put out for public consumption is fair 
game.>>

Hey Mr. Lundeen,

I ran to the book store and found your fricken' book.  One question though 
before I buy it.  On what page are the
BEER recipes on?

With all due respect sir, sorry, Papazian still blows you away. But thanks 
for the shameless self-promotion, though.  I'm sure somebody out there can 
make great beer with your book.

In another post, David W. Blersch, states:

<<Now, if it had been a
book written by some of you guy's that feel homebrewiing...damn, there I go
again..I mean craftbrewing shouldn't be fun, but a serious blend of
chemistry and yeast biology; I would have throw it back on the floor, pulled
up my pants, and left with the impression homebrewing was for lab geeks
bored of making bombs.>>

Dave, buddy, I've been brewing way before Papazian's books, but I know what 
you mean.  Charlie's books actually helped me to make better beer up until 
<"Al (dickhead) Gore"> invented the Internet.  Then came the exposure to the 
Digest and all those wonderful fricken' geeks you are referring too.  The 
greatest contribution to me making better beer has been, without a doubt, 
the Internet.


That's it, I'm done.
Tony


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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:02:08 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Water

For Steve Jones:

Chemical compounds which dissociate in solution contain equal numbers of
equivalents - not equal parts by weight. The molecular weight of calcium
carbonate is 100 thus 147 mg/L (ppm)  of calcium carbonate contains 1.47
mM/L of calcium and 1.47 mM/L of carbonate. As each are doubly charged
1.47 mM/L implies 2.94 milliequivalents/L. The equivalent weight of
calcium is 20 so the calcium content of 147 mg of calcium carbonate is
about 59 mg/L (ppm). For carbonate, the equivalent weight is 30 and so
this quantity of calcium carbonate would contain  88 mg/L (ppm). The
water in question does not contain 147 mg/L  of calcium carbonate (nor
41.7 mg/L MgCO3). Those numbers mean something else, the question is
what.  Usual practice is to report the carbonate in terms of the
alkalinity (mEq/L bicarbonate in most cases) and pH and to report the
calcium and magnesium content as either the ion or as, respectively, the
calcium and magnesium hardnesses or just the sum of the two as the total
hardness. Alkalinity and hardness are usually reported "as calcium
carbonate" and while I suppose one could extend that concept and report
magnesium hardness "as magnesium carbonate" I have never seen that done.
Is it possible that the report actually read "Magnesium 41.7 as calcium
carbonate" in other words is it possible that 147 and 41.7 represent the
total carbonate hardness? If so I can tell you approximately what's in
the water and I'll do that at risk that my assumption is wrong. Assuming
it's right  the alkalinity is (147 + 41.7)=188.6 ppm as CaCO3. At pH 7
this implies a bicarbonate content of 230 ppm and a carbonate content of
0.1 ppm. The calcium associated with the calcium part of the carbonate
hardness would be 20*147/50 = 58.8 ppm and the magnesium associated with
the other part 12.15*41.7/50= 10.1 ppm. This accounts for the carbonate
(temporary) hardness. There may be additional calcium and magnesium
present as permanent hardness. The charge from chloride and sulfate is
(13/35 + 6.7/48) = 0.51 mEq/L and the only thing to offset this is
(5.8/23) = 0.25 mEq/L sodium which means 0.26 mEq/L positive charge
shortfall. This positive charge may be supplied by additional calcium or
magnesium or a combination of the two or potassium or iron or a couple
of other unreported things or combinations. Were it from calcium that
would imply another  5.2 mg/L calcium ion. Supposing this to be the case
the analysis would look like
Ca: 63.8     Mg: 10.1     Na:  5.8      SO4:  6.7    Cl:  13    HCO3:
230   CO3: 0.1
Such a water is not suitable for the brewing of Pilsner beer.  Remember
that I am guessing as to what the water report really says.

WRT to the pH question - I don't know anything about ProMash but
assuming it does what it is supposed to do if you feed it a set of ionic
concentrations all it can do is try various pH values until it comes up
with the one which renders the total charge 0 (water is electrically
neutral i.e. there are equal numbers of charges on anions and cations).
The only way to get it to move off the pH it arrives at is to add or
remove acid or base (noting that bicarbonate is both an acid and a
base). In the real world carbon dioxide either escapes or dissolves
depending on its level in the water. This process continues until the
dissolved CO2 is at equilibrium with the CO2 in the air and the mineral
content of the water. In practice we usually see pH migrating towards
8.3 which is the equilibrium value for nominal (0.03%) atmospheric CO2
when the water is saturated with calcium carbonate.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:22:26 EDT
From: BShotola at aol.com
Subject: Swing tops and stuck fermentation

While traveling home from work I occasionally stop and buy a Schwarzbier at a 
local store, pop it open,  and sip it furtively along the country roads, 
enjoying its roasty darkness and definitely not worrying about HSA or a 
possible pull over by the county sheriff... 

This black beer is made in the Marburger Brauerei in Germany and comes in a . 
5 litre swing top bottle for about 2 bucks, the price I pay for empties which 
have plastic stoppers instead of the nice ceramic ones I am enjoying full of 
German Beer. A no brainer. I drink 'em up and fill with homebrew later, of 
course. 

I am enjoying this beer greatly and tried to get a bit of background about 
the brewery and the style in Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide (its an older 
one) and came up empty. Anyone have info to share?? 

Speaking of no brainers, my latest is a stuck fermentation. Having just fired 
up my fridge/controller system, I am wondering if I possibly was too hopeful 
when I moved my carboy of Vienna to the fridge shortly after pitching.  I 
pitched a 175 smack pack of Munich at 75 and just stuck it right in there at 
55 degrees. Is my yeast sleeping?  I thought these yeasts like it cool. Hmm.. 
Four days later, I am tempted to pull it out, warm it up, and stir. I should 
have made a bigger pitch I suppose, and waited for signs of fermentation. But 
I am a bit fuzzy on the proper cooldown of these lager yeasts. The package 
says pitch at 70 - 75, and nothing about when and how to reduce the temp.  I 
am trying to keep three beers happy in this fridge, otherwise would have 
stepped it down more gradually, but perhaps I am hoping for the 
unreasonable-to ferment, lager, and tap finished beer in the same fridge. A 
happy problem.

Bob Shotola
Yamhill Oregon



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:51:14 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Sterile water yeast storage

G'day All

Well the human head as bait has caused quite a bit a fun up here.  One thing
about us lot up here, we have a sick sense of humour.  One local bait shop
has already advertised "heads for bait will be in stock by the weekend".
Another local comic strip has all the local bait shop owners boarding a
plane to Papua-New Guinea with a guide "how to talk to headhunters" under
their arms.  I still have a question thou , how do you bait it to the hook
for a successful strike.  One thing for sure, you are guaranteed the fish
will take the bait - HEAD FIRST.

OK, OK - the last in my series on this method of storage. (hope you have
enjoyed it).  Now up to now you know how to do it.  But what the cry I hear
"I dont where a white coat so cant do it".  Now if all those Lab-rats out
there dont pick the eyes out of what follows (oh thats a bad pun) there are
a basic principle that if you follow them should ensure you dont get
infections. Its all commonsense stuff.

I'm sure you have seen the News, Science reports, documentaries, where you
see the white coats working with petre-dishes. You'll see them, looking at
the dishes in the light, trying to look holier than thou, etc.  But most of
all when you see them lift the lid to take a sample they are quick.

1.  Be quick.  Since plates only cost 2 cents a go, you should practice your
speed til you can do this with confidence.

Now you will also see the white coats have these fancy cabinets they may
work in.  simply they are designed to minumise infection by isolating you as
much as possible from the sample, So how do you do this at home.

2.  Wipe all the surfaces you work on with disaffectant.
3. You have seen the movies, really wash your hands.

These cabinets also have fans etc so you cant get infected from the air and
your breath. So

4. Do as much work in the morning, the air is generally as still as it gets
(less aircurrents)
5. Hold you breath when the lid are off, and try not to breath on it.

Finally there are stock standard things you do to reduce the chances of
infection.  You all have seen it sometime.  A little flame they stick stuff,
like wire loops into. But I dont have the fancy burner.  I use a camping
burner, but the burner on a gas stove will do nicely. so

6.  Flame ss loop immediately before each use
7. Flame test tube opening when you open and when you are ready to seal.

Finally these guys will work in a small area to reduce the chances of
infection.  You should do the same.  Everything should be close to each
other but organised. Also it should be close to the flame.

8. Flame causes an updraft.  working within the warm zone means its
difficult for something to settle on an exposed sample (eg a yeast sample on
the loop), they tend to shoot upwards.(thats air currents not the yeast)
9. Avoid actually touching anything that could get in touch with the yeast.
Only hold tops of lids, sides of petre-dishes.


Thats about it. If you have a gas stove, working right next to the stove
will do it.  believe it (or not) I do all my cuturing in my work room.  Its
very dusty, dirty, and about as clean as an outback prostitute.  Yet I can
culture with confidence, I have a small special table i pull out, clean and
disinfect, And provided I follow good culturing practices, perfect every
time.

Now if any-one wants to bend my ear on any aspects of this, you are more
than welcome, publically or privately. I haven't responded individually as
there were too many of you, but if you still have questions after all this
please contact me. So its off to my fishing gear and make
sure I have the right hook - I wonder what is the right hook to use.  I
suspose the hook dont need eyes, the bait will have them already, and I bet
I dont need any fish attractant, The bait should have the brains to know
where the fish are. (oh thats awful)

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh to all those other people who swamped me about grain roasting, I'll have
to cover that next, but the weekend nearly here, and I have my floury heffe
to make, and onging brew room to work on.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 05:10:22 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 

Warren White writes ...

>It really surprises me to see Charlie P. being slagged off about by his
>compatriots.

That wasn't my point when I said you should read it once then use it for a
doorstop.

>But upon opening one of  his books I realise I may know a lot more now
>and I'm probably a little past reading the bloody things,

That was my point.  It's a decent intro book but  it doesn't contain the
detail needed to undertake more challenging procedures, nor to grow IMO.
If you have several all-grain brews under your belt (sic) and still find
that all your questions have been answered in Charlie's books - you lack
curiosity.

The great debt of gratitude we all owe C.Papazian is not that his books are
the ultimate brewing resource, but that he popularized & made the process
accessible to so many that good HB  ingredients are now readily available
[in the Northern hemisphere].

 -S





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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:35:28 -0700
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Homebrew cost

Have to disagree with some of the posts regarding homebrew costs.  Sure,
most of us enjoy drinking quality beer, and didn't really get into the hobby
merely to guzzle 5 cent beer.  Also, some of our recipes will require a
greater expenditure in order to obtain certain ingredients not available to
us otherwise.

We live in the desert.  So in the summer, I brew mainly the American
Hefeweissen style.  My wife considers it the equal of any micro hefe
available.  My cost:  $1.11/six pack, or $5.50/case.  An easy recipe, to be
sure.  However, it is a quality product, and my wife requires that I
absolutely do not run out of it.  Since she's German, she's probably about
as good a judge as there is around here.

When my pilsner grain arrives, I will be ready to begin my winter pilsner
brewing.  My calculations show my cost should be around $3.50 a six pack,
although this is tentative.

How is this possible?  Buying grain in bulk, and reusing yeast.  I also brew
12 gallon batches.

Of course, it will probably take me 20 years to recoup the investment from
my 2-tier, kegs, Co2 bottle, grain mill, etc.!

I just laugh when we go out, and the beer of choice is budmillors, and they
want to charge 3.00 a bottle.

To the new HBD friends, it's a great hobby, have fun with it.  No, it's not
5 cent beer.  However, except for rare circumstances, you will be able to
brew a much superior product for about the same price, or lower than that of
say, a case of schmidt.

Sincerely,
Scott and Karin
Richland, WA
http://homebrewery.homestead.com/homebrewery.html



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 05:35:14 -0400
From: dcole at roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Krauzening vs. new yeast charge

Collective,

Dr. Pivo continues his crusade on the benefits of "krauzening up" beers to 
refresh their flavors, this time even saying that it repairs the ravages of 
time, bumpy back roads, etc.

Accepting this as a "truth", my question to the collective is whether this 
could be accomplished with a new dry yeast addition rather than having to 
have a yeast charge at high krauzen ready? Would a dusting of fresh dry 
yeast have the same effect as a bubbling jug of yeast?

It would seem to me that most of the fermentation has completed, so there 
would be very little flavor contribution (your perfect lager wouldn't 
suddenly become an ale because of a little ale yeast; assuming fermentation 
is long done, there's nothing for them to really eat and
process), and would be so much more convenient to those of us who brew so 
rarely anymore.

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:03:19 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Florida Bottle Laws; Clubs & Herding Cats

In a post about the benefits of Homebrew Clubs, Bev Blackwood writes -
It is surprisingly difficult to keep your membership brewing and
active when there is so much good beer you can buy.  We don't envy
our Florida brethren who have even more onerous state laws than we
do, but at least it gives them a strong incentive to brew!  Homebrew
clubs are a lot of work, often for little reward other than the
headache of trying to "herd cats," but they are worth the effort and
everyone should support them through membership and participation.


A good homebrew club is a tremendous resource - and in many ways the Homebrew
Digest is probably the best club in the country. But get involved in your
local club as well. Bev mentions herding cats - funny but that was the phrase
used as a warning by our last club president as well.

Bev also mentions the onerous Florida bottle laws. They are onerous,
repressive, and basically they suck. Basically, they limit the size of the
containers that beer can be sold in to 8, 12, 16, & 32 oz. That rules out a
lot of micros and imports. We almost got the law changed in the last
legislative session and things look even more promising for this year. With
that in mind, we have established the Florida Brewers List on the HBD server
(thanks Pat & Karl !!!). I envision the list as a means to quickly get out
information on the bottle law effort. It can also be used to get out other
important brewing info - club events, competition info & calls for judges,
details on Fl Brewers Guild events, etc. As that happens, it will also help
build a better sense of community among the Fl clubs and pro-brewers. That's
what homebrew clubs are all about.

If you are a Florida Brewer,  we'd love to get you on the mailing list. It
works basically like the HBD - to get on the list you send a post to
florida-request@hbd.org  with the word subscribe as the body of the message.
Send posts to florida at hbd.org

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl





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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 06:28:26 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Question re: High final gravity in a Stout


I recently brewed a stout, and while I DID want it to maintain 
some body,...and sweetness,..it finished higher that I'd have 
wished.  I wonder if it was the ingredients? 

5lb 6 row
2lb flaked barley
1lb Munton's chocolate malt
1lb Belgian Bisquit malt
1lb Paul's Stout malt
 .5lb roasted barley (in the sparge)
 .25lb Black malt
 .25lb amber malt

I know...that's lots, and complex...but this even complexifies 
if more: this is the first and only time that I have re-used 
slurry from dry yeast...it was from a package each of Edme and 
Coopers (that I had used a few weeks before)...

The yeast took off in less than an hour...bubbled wildly for 
about 2 days ,...then flocced.

The mash temp was 158F for about 60 minutes

og was 1.043
fg was 1.020

It tastes good...so I bottled.

Anyone know why this didn't go lower in gravity...perhaps the  
malt that has unfermentables?

Also, (last question) I was a little reluctant to reuse dry 
yeast slurry...Am I correct that this is not generally done?

 ..Darrell
<Terminally Intermediate Home-brewer>
- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:34:49 -0400
From: Julio Canseco <jcanseco at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in Pittsburgh?

Can you recommend a couple of good watering holes in Pittsburgh? The net
shows Church Brew Works and Foundry Ale Works as good candidates.
Hopefully they'll still be in business when I visit in mid Sept. Thanks
in advance.

        julio in athens, georgia
athens is a drinking town with a football problem.  Go Dawgs!



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:36:27 -0500
From: Kelly <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing

Easy suggestion...wrap a towel around the carboy while it is in the 
fridge...you can then keep a light on and not expose the beer to it....

HTH,

Kelly

New Orleans, LA.

YOu said...
- ----------------------------------
Date: 28 Aug 2000 11:21:05 EDT
From: Jeffrey.L.Calton at Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey L. Calton)
Subject: Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing


Greetings. A couple of questions:

<snip>

Secondly, my lagering fridge sits on a back patio. With the coming winter, I
need to explore ways of keeping the inside from dipping below freezing
temperatures. One solution would be to install a low watt incandescent light
bulb to provide a source of internal heat. However, the fridge often contains
beer in glass carboys, and I worry about the potential detriment of 
exposing the
beer to a continuous light source. How have others dealt with this issue?

Thanks,

Jeff Calton
Hanover, NH



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:40:38 GMT
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: How does boiling work?

I've been thinking about this relatively simple question: how would one 
calculate the final volume of wort if one knows the time it is boiled?  Ray 
Daniels in _Designing Great Beers_ writes that evaporation can be expressed 
as a percentage (he suggests 5%), and you simply determine final volume 
with:
Final Volume = Start Volume * (1 - evap rate * boil time)
So for 6.5 gals boiled 2 hours with a 15% evaporation rate, you've got:
6.5 * (1 - (.15 * 2)) = 4.55 gallons.

Ok.  But if you take the evaporation rate to be _per hour_, there's a 
modified formula you should use, it seems to me, which is:
Final Volume = Start Volume * (1 - (evap rate * boil time - evap rate^2))
Using the above scenario this formula yields 4.7 gallons

As the evaporation rate increases (and in some homebrew systems, evaporation 
can be quite high) the difference between the two formulae increases.

Intuitively it seems that evaporation should increase as the wort volume 
reduces, given a constant heat source.  Of course there are all kinds of 
variables like is the kettle covered or uncovered, surface area, etc - all 
of which you should be able to capture in an evaporation rate/hour for your 
system.  So all this to ask, does anyone know which of the above formulae is 
better at calculating actual evaporation?  Or is there a third formula which 
I'm missing?

Thanks!
Drew
- --
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario
http://fast.to/strangebrew



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:38:59 -0400
From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: re:Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing

Hello-

>From HBD3417, Jeff Calton mentions that he's have trouble with the all the
foaming in StarSan. I too have had this trouble. I e-mail the fine folks at
5 Star about this. They assured me it wasn't a problem. They said that
StarSan is safe to ingest and that it is used in many kegging lines. As the
keg is filled, tons of bubbles are blow out of the keg. Phil Wilcox (BJCP
Recognized Judge) was at a 5 Star demonstration where they put something
like a tablespoon of StarSan in a pint of beer. Phil said he was amazed the
he couldn't taste the high concentration. I believe it he said it changed
the flavor a bit but not to a chemical flavor, it also lightened the beer.

Ok, so it's safe to drink, but what if you still don't like the bubbles.
Here's what I do: I mix a gallon of water with a tablespoon of Starsan in
bucket and stir it gently. Then I rack to the carboy. I lay the carboy on
it's side and roll it on the carpet. I also tip it so as to wet the neck. I
repeat after a minute or so and rack the solution in to the next carboy. I
get very low sudsing this way and I get a sanitized racking cane.

Jeff also asks about heating his beer fridge. I use a hair dryer. It's got
some good attributes, it has a fan so it moves the air around and gets a
nice even heating in the fridge. It doesn't emit any light that might be
detrimental to beer in glass. It's got a thermal overload switch in case
something should over heat. And the newer blow dryers have a small combo gfi
plug. I point the dryer right at the t-stat sensor. Cycling a blow dryer
isn't an issue like it is with a compressor.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Whitmore Lake MI



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:55:39 EDT
From: CRDetail1 at aol.com
Subject: A  Question 

In a message dated 8/31/00 12:36:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< http://www.oeonline.com >>
Hi gentleman .... i was woundering if you would post this so i could get a 
reply to my question possibly from a few different sources ... well my 
question is why does my homebrew allways give me the worst hang over ... 
worse even then if i drink hard liquor .... maybe someone has some insight as 
to what i can do to correct this 
Chris 


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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:16:01 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons at honeywell.com>
Subject: Propane in the basement - My opinion

Jay Hummer has been given a real brewing area and has questions about
venting. First, congratulations! I brew in my basement using a high pressure
burner. I have done two things: I bought the most efficient fan that would
fit in the flip-up windows in the basement, and made sure that I had an
unrestricted fresh air source to allow air to enter the basement. I don't
know how many CFM I get from this setup, but I can feel a breeze blowing
through the basement when the fan is on. I have a CO monitor that has never
gone off with the fan on. I tested it without the fan once, and the meter
alarmed in less than two minutes.

This was covered to death a few months ago, check the archives. The
consensus was that it is not safe at all, but then again, safety is a
relative thing.

Two other things: I NEVER store the propane bottle in the basement. It stays
outside until I am ready to light the burner and goes back after I am done.
I also make sure that the tank and cut off valve is well away from the
burner, and accessible while the burner is lit, so I can turn it off
quickly.
 



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:27:58 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons at honeywell.com>
Subject: Iodiphor Question

I have an off topic iodiphor question. I own a cruising sailboat. The main
tank for the pressurized water system is aluminum. I have to fill it from an
untreated well water system. In order to not have god-knows-what growing in
the tank within days, I need to add a biocide of some sort when I fill the
tank. Chlorine of any type is not an option, because chlorinated water
corrodes aluminum badly. Other sailors I have talked to suggest Iodine
tablets like hikers and campers use, but I would have to add 2 bottles of
tablets every time I fill the tank (not cheap!). 

I have been thinking about trying Iodiphor. I would only need a tiny amount
in the tank, because the goal is just to keep stuff from growing, not to
sanitize the plumbing system. Does anybody have any information on the
toxicity of this stuff? I use the water mostly for washing dishes and
showering, but I guess I could get some in my mouth. I also need to know if
there is any concentration I would need to inhibit growth. Thanks for any
help.

Frank Timmons
James River Homebrewers 
Richmond, VA


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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:00:04 -0600
From: "J. Morgan" <jmorgan at surfree.com>
Subject: Headspace in bottles

I've seen a printed recommendation for 1/2" of headspace
in 12 oz bottles, (can't remember if it was Papazian, Miller,
here, or a website) but have noticed that most commercial
brews, even bottle-conditioned ones, have 1 1/2" to 2" of
headspace.

Does it depend on the brew, bottle, amount or type of
priming sugar?  Is there a way to guesstimate the
amount of headspace needed?

TIA, folks.
- --
Jeff





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Date: 31 Aug 2000 09:36:13 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: 10GAL FERMENTERS

     Regarding:
     Mike Isaacs <misaacs at bigfoot.com>
     Subject: 10+ Gallon Fermentors
     
     "I brew 10 gallon batches and I would like to ferment the entire 
     batch in one primary. I cannot find 10 to 15 gallon food grade 
     buckets anywhere. Any suggestions out there?...Mike"
     
     I too have been interested in larger volume fermenters.  I use 15 
     gallon Sankey keg to ferment in.  Right now I have just taken the 
     valve out and replaced it with a large stopper with two holes.  In 
     one hole I have a long 1/2" dia. SS tube that reaches to the 
     bottom, and another that only goes in a couple of inches, this ones 
     for venting CO2, and has a hose attached and placed in to a 1/2 
     gallon growler bottle for air lock.  The other tube )the one that 
     goes to the bottom) has a hose attached to it with a clamp on it.  
     When I want to sample, I clamp the vent tube and open the other 
     tube and during fermentation, the natural pressure forces out beer! 
      After fermentation, I usually need to start a siphon or hook up my 
     CO2 to start beer sampling.  I would like to modify this set-up, 
     but I am now a firm believer in fermenting in SS as opposed to 
     plastic and or glass!  The 15 gallon fermenter is really too big 
     for 10 gallon batches, so I am toying with the idea of using a 
     12-13g keg that is available from Sabco.  One problem you will have 
     is cleaning after fermentation because you will have difficulty 
     seeing into the fermenter to be sure it is clean.  Another idea I 
     am toying with (translation=needs $$$) is to use a 10 gallon soda 
     keg for fermentation, this will allow convenient fermentation in my 
     fermenchiller, which is too small to fit my 15 gallon sankey!  Good 
     luck, I hope others pitch in with ideas, because I think this is a 
     very good area where a lot of brewers can make improvements.  
     Having said that, the best fermenter from the chemical and 
     cleanable and inspection standpoint is glass, but too hazardous, 
     even though I still use them, I am really trying to get away from 
     them, and besides 5 gallon fermenters are just too small!
     
     Roger Ayotte
     
     
     



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:07:52 -0500
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: Star San foam

per Five star literature, the foam sanitizes just as well as the liquid.  So
foam is good!  In fact due to the high foam characteristics, you can use
less Star San than you think to sanitize a 5 gallon carboy.  I have
successfully sanitized a 5 gallon carboy with only enough star san for 2.5
gallons, the foam reached the top of the carboy, so the whole thing is done!
(for those of you who don't know, 1/2 oz of Star San is what to use for 2.5
gallons.)  Usual disclaimers, just an extremely satisified user of the
products.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL
(and looking forward to my 2 weeks of beer heaven at Siebel!!!!)




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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 12:34:59 EDT
From: Wimpy48124 at aol.com
Subject: Mashmate 1600

I'm getting ready to order a Mashmate 1600 RIMS controller from Paragon 
Brewing and was wondering if anybody has any experience with it or know of 
anyone else that does? It's the last piece of my ThunderMug Brewery to go and 
I'd like some feedback on it from others before I send my check. 
    Thanks,
            Karl


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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:49:29 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: foaming StarSan / flocculating yeast / dry lager yeast


Jeffrey.L.Calton at Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffrey L. Calton) asks about the foam
residue left by Starsan.

Five Star states that "Star San will leave a microscopic film on sanitized
items that will continue to protect your bottles and equipment even after
they have dried. This will not effect the quality, flavor, clarity or color
of your beer."

The foam is a feature, not a bug, it helps increase contact time. The amount
of residual foam after draining will not affect your yeast, or beer flavour.
If you really dislike the foam, see if your homebrew shop will carry
Saniclean. Five Star says "Saniclean is fundamentally the same as Star San,
only without the foaming action. Perfect for circulation cleaning, spray
bottles, or other applications where foam is not desired"

We use StarSan in spray bottles and in circulation cleaning with success,
but a non-foaming version would probably work better. I like the foam, it
lets me distinguish between StarSan and RO water, which we store in similar
containers around the shop...

============

"Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> gently challenges my statement: "dry
yeast... tend to not be as flocculent IMO as highly flocculent liquid
yeasts" and points out:

>Some dry yeasts are as flocculant as death... I defy any yeast to out flocc
>Nottingham...Certainly, "liquid yeast" is not synonymous with "flocculant."

Certainly not, and some liquid yeast has very low flocculation.  Perhaps
I've used the wrong terminology, I think a yeast can be flocculant and clear
well, yet still have a powdery, easily disturbed sediment. In my experience
highly flocculant liquid yeast (such as Wyeast #1968) creates much firmer
sediment than most dry yeasts. Firm sediment is the concern when attempting
to bulk prime a fermentor - the context of my quote.

 I confess since my conversion to liquid strains I haven't kept as
up-to-date as I could have with dry yeasts. My most recent experiment about
a month ago was with Munton's Ale.  I tried it in a mild ale that I  usually
brew with Wyeast #1968, which accentuates the malt and creates a full
flavoured mild. It was rather non-descript, it flocc'd slowly, and tasted
slightly bready until it was finally clear with the help of finings. It
wasn't particularly fruity, but neither did it accentuate the malt flavours.
It was, as with the best of the dry yeasts I have tried: boring and slow to
clear, but relatively clean. The Munton's Ale would probably have been fine
in a bigger beer, but the mild it made was incredibly boring -  I suppose
the finings could have also contributed to the lack of character.

I haven't tried Nottingham in years. My past experiences with dry yeasts was
that the sediment they left stirred up easily, while the Wyeast strains I
use most seem to leave sediment that binds together better, although
sometimes in larger curd-like clumps that float loosely in the bottom 1/2
inch of the fermentor so I don't necessarily get more wort, just clearer
wort. I would be thrilled to hear more about people's successes and favorite
dry yeasts, esp. lager yeasts. We are always on the look-out for better
supplies.

Marc Sedam was using Saflager S-23 dry lager in July. Any results yet Marc?
And Rob Moline fwded Dr. Cone's comments in April that a new dry lager would
be available this year. Is there any further info on that?  Rob also pointed
out that Lallemand had a dry lager, Kroner, but it was only stable enough
for pro-brewing distribution. We would very much like to have:
 -a dry lager (similar in finished character to Wyeast #2112 or #2272)
 -a clean dry  high temp ale yeast (similar in finished character to Wyeast
#1056 or #1272)
 -a crisp dry high attenuation ale yeast (similar in finished character to
Wyeast #1275 or #1335)
 -and a malty dry yeast (similar in finished character to Wyeast #1968 or
#1332)

Any suggestions or experiences welcome.

Stephen Ross
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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