---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Accents ("Warren White")
  Re: Munich Malt in Alt ("Warren White")
  RE: malt mils (John C Van Hove)
  Gravity contribution of starch ("Doug Moyer")
  Left out again... ("Doug Moyer")
  Imersion Wort Chillers ("John Lovett")
  re:Krauzening vs. new yeast charge ("Dr. Pivo")
  herbs in beer (Mike Foster)
  books (Tom Lombardo)
  tater mashin' (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  RE: HBD Illustrated? ("Houseman, David L")
  Books for the intermediate... (Some Guy)
  LA visit ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  re:Mr Beer Drinker Guy (Jim Adwell)
  brew books ("Alan Meeker")
  New Glarus beer in Madison? (Jeff Pursley)
  Re: Wyeast 3522, Champagne Corks & La Fin Du Monde (Richy)
  RE: champagne corks ("Brian Lundeen")
  Water chemistry ("scott")
  fresh hops ("Wayne Love")
  more than text (Jim Liddil)
  oats in beer, open boiling (gradym)
  Re: Alt Grain Bills/Oat Beers (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: La Fin Du Monde (Mike Maceyka)
  Wyeast 2633 (Oktoberfest) (Hop_Head)
  RE: Mashed potato in mash (tkneall)
  reading ("Paul Niebergall")
  Cider ("Leland Heaton")
  mashing potatoes (Valerie LD Morey)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:40:51 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Accents

Me old china Stephen Alexander writes....

And here I thought it was your bad habit of thinking from a non-US
perspective.  You Aussies really have this tongue-in-cheek humor
nailed.  I'll bet you don't have an accent either  ;^)

***********************************

Kenoath we do knackers...

Sometimes even with a slight xenophobic dialect too!

Say ows-it-angin to Gary Hall Jnr. for me too wouldya cob?

Crikey dropped me dogseye 'n' deadhorse!
Got it allova me oldfella now!

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Cheers! Warren L. White
Melbowrne Orrrstralia Mite!
May allya chooks turn into Emus and kick ya dunny door in!

(Antiquated Australian proverb cos we don't need dunny doors
cos we all ung like orses of courses!)


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:16:09 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Munich Malt in Alt

Re: Munich Malt in an Alt

Fred L. Johnson writes...

Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone can  make a good alt (including
Al Korzonas), with their characteristic high attenuation levels, using the
high levels of Munich malt I have often seen for this style.  I have simply
quit trying. Suggestions are welcome!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

According to Roger Protz in one of his books a leading Alt brewer like 
Diebels uses 99% Pilsner Malt and 1% Roast Malt so you'd have to question 
the 100% Munich thing, this would have to be a bit of a cop-out to avoid 
decoction mashing I'd assume.

I'd always assumed that Munich Malt has very low enzyme levels probably most 
likely making it a dubious proposition as 100% of your grist anyway.

My line of thinking would be to use say 70% Pils Malt and then maybe 30% of 
a darker Munich Malt and a small bit of Caramel or an even way smaller 
additon of a Roasted Malt.

Better to err on the side of higher attenuation and a drier finish IMHO!

By the way Fred did Pete Czerpak use the Wyeast 1338 European Ale? Because 
this stuff is very unattenuative (67-71%)conversely the 1007 goes far drier 
(73-77%).

Warren L. White
Melbourne, Australia

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Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:06:26 -0500
From: John C Van Hove <jvanhove at knology.net>
Subject: RE: malt mils

In HBD 3419 Edward Doernberg has the following questions about the 
availability/construction of grain mills.

     "I am considering buying a malt mill. The only place in peth that has 
them in stock only has the ones that look like a spinning disk on the end 
of a meat mincer. Shipping would kill me on any other type. There is one 
other place that will get one in but it's the same type.  Should I by this 
one which isn't ideal or try to build one. If I do nothing then I am just 
using the cheap kind at the store instead of at home.  Are there any sits 
with instructions on how to build a malt mill.  I have access to wood 
working tools but only limited metal working (like a drill and a saw 
only)."

     I'm a bit behind in my digest reading due to the holiday weekend so 
please excuse me if my post is redundant.  I can't help you with a source 
for a quality grain mill down under, but I did see an interesting web page 
that detailed plans for a wooden roller grain mill (Copyright (c) 1996 
Dennis Cabell).  Here is the link. 
 [http://www.hbd.org/users/mtippin/woodmill.html]  Good Luck!

    Like Edward, I too am looking to buy a good grain mill.  After spending 
a great deal of time searching the web, I came up with the following five 
2-roller grain mills to choose between.

Phil Mill 2: <http://www.listermann.com/Store/Details.asp?ID=589>  $145.00
The Valley Mill: <http://www.web.apc.org/~valley/valleymill.html>  $138.50
JSP MALTMILL: <http://user.mc.net/~arf/maltmill.htm>  $105 ($138 
adjustable)
Automatic ABM-4 Grain Mill: <http://www.northernbrewer.com/page21.htm> 
 $169.50
The BrewTek GrainMill: <http://www.brewtek.com/grain1.html#mills>  $129.90

     Considering that this is an item that I'll probably be using for a 
long time, I don't really see much difference between the high and low ends 
of the price range.  My main concerns are that the mill does a good job on 
my grains and holds up well over time.  I also would like to power the mill 
with a small electric motor so I'm interested in which of the equipment 
above lends itself to this approach.  While gathering information on the 
various mills, I've received several strong recommendations for the Phil 
Mill 2 so I'm leaning in that direction.  Do any of you master brewers out 
there have information or opinions that might help me decide which one to 
buy for my own brewery (garage)?

Thanks in Advance,
John Van Hove [jvanhove at knology.net]
Montgomery, Alabama (a miserably stinking hot place to live)



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Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:35:56 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Gravity contribution of starch

Could one of y'all learned folks add a little info to my befuddled head?
Paul Claassen, the Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>, said:

"...but I doubt it was unconverted starch since I'm getting proper
extraction..."

I've seen similar comments in my years of reading the hbd and have never
felt comfortable with such sentiments. Wouldn't unconverted starch
(oxymoron?) contribute to the gravity? Or, is it assumed that any such
starch would remain in the malt, and not make it into the solution? (Which I
don't buy into, I guess.) Could one of you macrocephalics bend a thought in
my direction?

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry




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Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:57:23 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Left out again...

"Jens P. Maudal" <Jens.maudal at c2i.net> sez:

"A doug or wort..... they where both left out to become enoculated with wild
yeast."

Wait a second here! I asked my parents about this. They swore that I was
left out accidentally, and that the wild yeast inoculation was entirely
serendipitous.

Brew on!

Doug (Dough? Doh!) Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry




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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:16:27 +1100
From: "John Lovett" <john.lovett at amcor.com.au>
Subject: Imersion Wort Chillers

Does anyone know where I can purchase an Imersion chiller in Oz, or do I
have to make one or mail order it from US of A?

John Lovett

John Lovett <john.lovett at amcor.com.au>
Design and Supercomputing
Amcor Research and Technology
17 Rex Avenue, Alphington Vic 3078 AUSTRALIA
Tel +613 9490 6315 Fax +613 9490 6193
Mobile 0407 875 056



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:46:41 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: re:Krauzening vs. new yeast charge

Dan Quayle (er... no sorry, that's me!) I mean Dan COLE asks what I
think is a pretty pertinent question regarding "krauzening" before
travel, to minimize damage.

Before I get charged with being too original, I might explain some of
the background of how I learned this, and which "mints" I've sinced
tossed at it.

I picked it up in (can anybody guess where?) Czecho... except it isn't
really called that, and definately wasn't called that then... it was
Czechoslovakia.

There was basically two delivery systems to pubs then, and the
discerning visitor of "houses of well respite" should know which was
which. One method was the delivery of 50 litre barrels, and the other
was the damndest thing I've ever seen.... pubs had a big valve on the
outside at the street, that looked like a fire hydrant opening, or the
filling spot for oil to an oil burning furnace.

Cute little "fire trucks" would pull up (say what you like about the old
east states, but they could sure spark nostalgia, since everything they
had looked like they came from the environs of the childhood of this ol'
Methuselah)... and they'd screw their hose in place and pump beer into
the big holding tank in the cellar.

Now, while the first system was the "superior beer", the second was
still (to my tastes) better than that I've ever drunken anywhere else.

Being quite familiar with "transport damage" in my own stuff, and easily
recognizing it in other products (Never seen a single product that has
left the shores of Jolly 'Ol without it...... hmmmmmm.  Maybe that's why
the American Microbrewery imitations of "bitters" taste like they
do?.... funnny thought.).... I was very curious how they circumvented
that problem after such bastardly treatment.

I guess it might be known on this forum, that I have weedled myself
quite deep within the process in Czecho (I in fact sometimes wonder
how Lynne o'Connor has pulled out in a few brief visits, things that have
taken me years to milk out.... but I suspect it may have something to do
with her using her curling iron as a cattle prod, and may explain why I 
seem to be seeing all the brewmasters there walking with their knees
together, and tossing nervous glances over their shoulders).   

This puts me in a funny position: "How much of this is meant to be
passed on,
and how much was just told to "me"?"

I think this is "ok" so here goes:

I found out that a 3 percent krauzen was added before shipping the stuff out.

This was news and a revelation to me, and on subsequent visits when
pursueing the question further, found out that in a pinch, they'd even
toss in some left over "yeast slurry", where 30 percent of the
membership was dead!

I don't recall the exact ammount on that one, but could well have it
written down "someplace".

This has of course sparked my own usage and regarding:

> Accepting this as a "truth", my question to the collective is whether this 
> could be accomplished with a new dry yeast addition rather than having to 
> have a yeast charge at high krauzen ready? Would a dusting of fresh dry 
> yeast have the same effect as a bubbling jug of yeast?

I have used a "not totally cleared secondary" instead of a krauzen, and
made sure the racking tube even sucked a little bottom content, with
equally satisfactory results... even survived "blind tasting" once
again, against an  untreated travelling companion.

I don't know if a totally non-active yeast would have the same oxygen
scavenging effects, with no other nutrient to encourage it..... You can
trick an already active yeast into believing: "There's more fun ahead,
so stock up!"... I don't know how far you can lure one that's sleeping.

What I DO know, is there is an easy way to find out, and you could be
the first, Dan.

as to:

> 
> It would seem to me that most of the fermentation has completed, so there 
> would be very little flavor contribution (your perfect lager wouldn't 
> suddenly become an ale because of a little ale yeast; assuming fermentation 
> is long done, there's nothing for them to really eat and
> process)

On that point I'm far less sure.  If you are asking the yeast to do
"anything", I would think it to be very inconsiderate to expect them to
perform a chore, and absorbe a resource without them leaving a "flavour
contribution" in return.... once you get them rolling they do like to
make things..... and lacking anything else, I'd hate to join the HBD
speculative game, but it just could be the smell of burning tires, if
they've been so entirely fooled.

I might add that I've never "crossed yeasts" on that trick so I'm just
dumping speculation.  Towards that end, I might suggest another of my
"crusades": "Wortcicles".  We all make wort.  It's easy to tap off a bit
into a clean container and stuff it in the freezer.  You can the pull it
out whenever you like to rouse a drousy yeast, hammer a starter, make a
little krauzen, etc..  It might be a way to set off Graham's water
logged yeast you saved from the original brew.

Once again, you never know until you know, so the brewing balls in your
court, Dan.

I might reiterate one point if it was missed: The krauzened travellers
should sit a bit upon arrival, hopefully at or below the temperature
they were stored at... One day is not enough, a week is plenty, and I
haven't trimmed the margins to see how far it can be pushed (three days?).

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:16:49 -0400
From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org>
Subject: herbs in beer

>Just curios if any of you have used herbs in your
>beers, particularly the mint family. I am seeking
>guidance before I attempt some hideous experiment that
>gets poured down the sink. 

Experimenting is the only way... But yes, I have a lot
of experience with herb beers (via experimentation).
I did a "Black Cat Ale" with lots of chocolate malt at
catnip (which is a mint), which didn't turn out to be
undrinkable... I do a "Beltane Brew" with rosemary,
catnip, and clove. I keep getting annual requests to
brew more of that one... I recently did a batch of ale
with St. John's Wort and Kava Kava, which wasn't very
drinkable (tangy and sour). I did a batch with woodruff
and wintergreen that was okay, but not great. A friend
of mine did a Basil honey-brown which goes great with
Italian food.
One note: I almost never use hops when doing an herb beer.

- -- 
Wolfger
http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger

Let's dare to be ourselves, for we do that better than anyone else.



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:48:58 -0500
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: books

Warren White writes:
>I think the problem with brewing books in general is that they're either 
>simplistic i.e. TCJOHB or Technical (Noonan) and there's no real happy 
>medium in between, has someone ever thought of bringing out a series of 
>books that graduate in stages i.e. Beginner, Intermediate, Semi-Advanced, 
>Advanced, Scientific, Downright Anal, Nervous Breakdown in those steps.

I started with TCJOHB, and it was a good intro.  After being introduced to
the HBD, I realized that there was more I that wanted to learn, so I
bought a copy of Miller's "Complete Handbook of Home Brewing".  As soon as
I get a PhD in chemistry, I might read the whole thing.  Had that been the
first book I ever read on HB, I may not have started.  It reads more like
a professional dissertation than a hobbyist book.

Until a couple of years ago, I recommended TCJOHB as a beginner's book. 
Then, Al Korzonas published "Homebrewing, Volume 1".  That book is the
happy medium.  Easy enough for beginners, and far more complete (and
accurate) than TCJOHB.  It only covers extract brewing, but the sections
on ingredients and techniques give a great foundation for brewing at all
levels.  For someone who doesn't have an interest in all-grain brewing, it
may be the only book you'll ever need.  If you do have an interest in
all-grain, let's hope Al will find the time to write "Volume 2".  

Tom (Rockford IL)



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:52:08 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: tater mashin'

I have used potato in several beers with good sucess - particularly a
Koelsch.  Contrary to what one might believe, the taste of white potato
does not come through in the final product as does pumpkin for example..

I have never used raw potato, but have always employed potato starch as
is found at the local Chinese restaurant supply.

I simply add it to the mash as you would any adjunct such as rice or
corn.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:57:41 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: HBD Illustrated?

A.J. suggestion of illustrating HBD is a good one.  In fact the images as
pulled off his URL's on my system were quite good.  Certainly the graph
there beats the typical ASCI drawings.  While the hosting sites A.J.
presented are free, that doesn't mean they will be stable for the long term.
So links may go bad and become useless for any archival references.  If the
HBD itself can support hosting of images as part of the HBD, then we stand a
much better chance of preserving the entire messages in the archives than
links to sites that may or may not exist for long.   Now if A.J. could just
create an image that helps me to intuitively understand the differences in
pH and alkalinity...

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:36:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Books for the intermediate...

Greetings, BEerlings! Take me to your lager...

Warren White writes:
>I think the problem with brewing books in general is that they're either
>simplistic i.e. TCJOHB or Technical (Noonan) and there's no real happy
>medium in between, has someone ever thought of bringing out a series of
>books that graduate in stages i.e. Beginner, Intermediate, Semi-Advanced,
>Advanced, Scientific, Downright Anal, Nervous Breakdown in those steps.

How 'bout "Homebrewing For Dummies" by Marty Nachel? Don't let the "For
Dummies" tag scare you off - it's one of the best books on the subject out
there, and has everything you need to go from "Joe Budweiser" to "Boris
Vorlauf" in a open, friendly, easily understood manner.

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:48:26 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: LA visit

Hi, all.

I'm gonna be in the Long Beach area on Oct 7.  Mostly I'll be visiting

with my bro, but could add a few HBers to the mix for a few brews or
so.  Email me if you're interested, and maybe we can set something up.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:12:52 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: re:Mr Beer Drinker Guy

Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au> writes:

"I don't normally get involved in this "I said, he said, you said, she
said" crap, but I would just like to correct Jim Adwell after his little
diatribe in today's (#3422 digest). Specifically, he has a shot at Jack
Schmidling for disposing of the false bottom dead space momily when in
fact, according to Jim, the thread was really about manifolds. I would
simply say, read your
HBDs more carefully, Jim. "

Ouch.  Steve is correct; after going back 6 or 7 issues, and rereading
Jack's post, I see I was mistaken; Jack was talking about dead space;MBDG
was talking about lautering efficiency.  Apologies to Jack, egg on face to me.

"Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> writes:

"Not my whole frame has rusted yet, just one particular area. So I gave the
blend a try, equal parts of each applied with a warm compress. WOW! what a
difference! Now I can once again 'curry' the favors of SWMBO."

See what science and a case of beer can do?

Cheers, Jim


Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:57:21 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: brew books

One book I haven't seen mentioned is Ray Daniel's "Designing Great Beers."
An excellent book IMHO and I highly recommend it. Daniels covers the basics
of brewing well but also includes a great deal of interesting information on
the history of each of the major beer styles. In addition, for each of these
styles he dissects the recipes of  AHA national  winners and placers
allowing one to see what they have in common and therefore, by inference,
what details may be most important. Overall, a great book for
intermediate/advanced brewers who want to learn more about the various
styles and who are ready to tackle their own recipe formulations. I also
imagine this would be a great read for those studying for BJCP
certification.

As far as Charlie's books go, I remember looking back at them after I'd been
brewing for a year or so and thinking how naive and overly-carefree they
seemed. On the other hand, they were the first two books I read when I
started out and they definitely got me excited about this hobby. If nothing
else, Papazian gets across the FUN that can be had while brewing and I
honestly don't know if  I'd have pursued homebrewing if  I'd started out
reading some dry technical tome instead (this from a bigtime technophile
mind you!).

 -Alan Meeker
Lazy Eight Brewery
Baltimore, MD





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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:47:44 -0500 
From: Jeff Pursley <JPursley at Tulsa.E2M.net>
Subject: New Glarus beer in Madison?

Greetings fellow brewers,

I will be traveling on business to Madison, Wisconsin this upcoming weekend.
Does anyone out there know if and where I can buy New Glarus beer in
Madison? If you wish, respond to me directly to jpursley at tulsa.e2m.net.
Thanks in advance. The next problem is how to get it home....

Jeff Pursley
Bixby, Oklahoma


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:30:01 +0200
From: Richy <richy at millorsoft.es>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 3522, Champagne Corks & La Fin Du Monde

>Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 08:33:06 EST
>From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Wyeast 3522, Champagne Corks & La Fin Du Monde
>
[...]
>Second question. I want to be a bit of a wanker and put some of my Tripel in 
>champagne bottles "A La Grand Reserve" My question being as follows... How 
>the bloody hell does one get these corks into the bottle? You know the type 
>of corks I mean... The ones that look like little mushrooms thus eliminating 
>the need for a corkscrew! I'm guessing you need some special sort of device 
>in no way related to your regular bench capper, would I be right?

[lurking mode off]
Absolutely, positively, yes. The corks aren't mushroom shaped, actually. They
look cilindric like normal wine corks, only 1 cm wider.

To put the definitive cork on a champaigne bottle you need a special bottling 
bench. It's basically a support where you put the bottle vertically and a kind
of grip right over it. So you have the bottle firmly in position, with that 
grip (fixed to the bench !!!) holding the cork in place while squeezing it to 
the bottle's diameter. 2/3ds of the cork's lenght protrude from the grip's top.

While you were preparing the show, you've been holding a rope that subjects a 
15 Kg weight hanging roughly 75 cm from the grip (all conveniently fixed to 
the whole device with two vertical poles and some counterweights to avoid it
flipping out). Then you release the rope, gravity does his magic and the cork 
gets smashed in place. Then you pull a lever and the metal bands holding the
cork get fixed. The 'mushroom' shape comes later with time.

The idea is, then, that using a wider cork will produce enough pressure to 
keep the gas on the bottle, but you need brute force to put it in place. 

But champagne certainly has a higher carbonate concentration (and pressure)
than beer, so you probably would be able to use normal wine corks (and a 
hammer) and still get a sealed enough bottle. Or even cover the cork with 
melted wax. It's been used with wine for ages to avoid oxidation, so it 
probably would help to keep the gas inside.
[lurking mode on]

Richy


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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:11:50 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: champagne corks

Warren White, Wanker wanna-be writes: (try saying that quickly 5 times)

> Second question. I want to be a bit of a wanker and put some
> of my Tripel in
> champagne bottles "A La Grand Reserve" My question being as
> follows... How
> the bloody hell does one get these corks into the bottle? You
> know the type
> of corks I mean... The ones that look like little mushrooms
> thus eliminating
> the need for a corkscrew! I'm guessing you need some special
> sort of device
> in no way related to your regular bench capper, would I be right?

You are correct, a special corker is required for inserting Champagne corks.
Your standard home winemaker floor corker just won't do it. These corks
start out looking like any other cork, only much larger. If you look
closely, you will also notice that they have a solid cork disk sandwiching
the cork equivalent of "particle board". The shape you see upon opening is
the result of intense pressures acting on the cork from the CO2 inside and
wire hood outside.

An alternative (over here anyway) are plastic closures. Here's a link that
shows a picture of them. http://www.piwine.com/Catalog/champsup.html
Probably the only way you are going to get a Champagne-style closure without
going to a lot of expense.

And just to get off on a bit of a rant, it's about time the wine industry
realized that corks are an inferior and outdated product, and that there are
much more effective ways of sealing bottles. The old momily that corks help
wines age just does not stand up under scientific scrutiny. They are prone
to leakage and cork-taint (a compound called TCA which comes from a reaction
between the cork and chlorine used in production). Unfortunately, snob
appeal and a strong cork lobby are hampering this effort. In any case, the
last thing brewers should be doing is emulating the bad habits of the wine
industry.

Cheers,
Brian



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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:05:13 -0700
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Water chemistry

I brew mainly Hefe's in the summer, and Pilsners in the fall/winter.  Last
week, my first attempt at water altering.  I added a small amount of lactic
acid to the HLT, enough to make the ph around 6.  I checked the mash ph when
it was settled, and had a nice 5.5 going.  I added a little Cacl, because I
hear calcium is good for pale beers.  For the sparge, I added some lactic
acid to the sparge water, enough to bring it from 7.7 down to 5.5 or so.
Did I do ok?  Can I assume that my household Calcium level is very low, and
that the CaCo3 plays no effect in calcium levels?

Looking for water chemistry guidance please.  I have done some homework,
enough to make me dangerous.

Ca++   6.2mg/L
Mg++   1.4mg/L
Na+       85mg/L
Cl-          24mg/L
pH        7.5

Alkalinity as CaCo3      137mg/L
Hardness (CaCo3)           21mg/L
Sulfate                                nondetected.


Thanks for all the help,
Scott and Karin
Richland, Wa




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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:21:47 -0300
From: "Wayne Love" <lovews at auracom.com>
Subject: fresh hops

Just a short question on hops, then a beer joke ( at a risk of alienating
all the female readers)
I'm about to harvest my first batch of hops and was wondering why do we dry
them? Can you use fresh green hops, as is, without drying them out or does
this have an adverse effect on the beer? I would be using the hops for both
bittering and later in the process for aroma.
For the last few weeks we have been jumping on one another quite frequently,
so I thought perhaps a little humor might lighten things up.

BEER CONTAINS FEMALE HORMONES    ( from the scientific journal of america)

 Yesterday scientists revealed that beer contains small traces of female
 hormones.
 To prove their theory, the scientists fed 100 men 12 pints of beer and
 observed that 100% of them gained weight, talked excessively without
 making sense, became emotional, couldn't drive, and refused to apologize
 when wrong.

 No further testing is planned.

thanks for your help
wayne




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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:32:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: more than text

> Subject: HBD Illustrated?
> 
> be over the noise of the Luddites often found here. One of the big

This should get somebody fied up. :-)

> needs to extract the URL from the system - this is pretty straightforwar

But what about all the ludds and AOLers?
> 
> as it starts with http and ends with .jpg and then put the URL in his
> HBD post.  For example, if we were talking about alcohol determination
> we might point out that a pycometer is a relatively inexpensive tool
> for

But what about the cost of the balance?

As weird al says "about as useful as a jpeg to helen keller"

My point being that some folks are vison impaired in form or another.
A book is a fromat that I can still look at for years.  I can still read
the hbd from 1990.  If we choose to use a service like zing or better yet
mgisoft.com  What
happens in the future if the service goes belly up?  I can use my own
domain but that means I pay for it.  the hbd runs on someone elses server
and thus installing bandwidth hogging images is not an option.  So let's
say i post an image and the server the image is on is hacked or goes
away.
I had better have written a pretty detailed description or in the future
the information is not very useful.

And some folks don't know how to size images for the web properly. They
make them too big and use too many colors.  Then they take for ever to
load at 28K which some of us still have as a max speed.  

Anyone priced photoshop lately or dealt with the learning curve?  A
program like paintshop pro is more appropraite.  Time and time again I
scientist I work with produce 200 meg images and complain they can't get
it on a zip disk etc.  So yes the technology is great IF you know what you
are doing.  Big IF in my view.  


> http://members3.clubphoto.com/aj258779/Demo_Album/photo1.jpg

And then we have stuff like this that is a waste of bandwidth in my
opinion.:-)
> 
> Clicking on these URL's will bring the image down into your browser/mail
> program
> which will present it in whatever fashion it is set up to do it. For
> example, Netscape on the Mac thinks a pixel is a pixel is a pixel and
> that there are 72 to the inch. Period. Thus a 2000 pixel wide  image
> will be presented scaled to be 28 inches wide and off the screen if
> viewed in-line. Readers may wish, therefore,  to set up to capture JPEGs
> directly into PhotoShop,
> for example.

Yea, like I'm going to waste time downloading a picture of a dog?
> 
> In getting these pics to the readership the poster also has the option
> of sending the readers to www.clubphoto.com and having them type in the
> poster's e-mail address at the home page. This gets them to the poster's
> 
> page which may contain several "albums" which when opened present the
> images in manageable size which can be expanded if the image is clicked.

Again provided the owner knows about dpi, bit depth, pixel resolution
etc.

> 
> Curious to see what the rest of you think of this and wonder of we'll
> start to see graphics creep into the stodgy old text only HBD. If
> interest is stimulated I suppose we ought to ask the janitors to
> recommend one of the multiple options as the standard for the digest.
> 

A standard?  I'm reminded of the attempt to come up with a "standard"
recipe format for brewing programs.  That effort went the way of the t
rex.

Not try ing to be contrary, just realistic having dealt with many
"intelligent" people who couldn't understand computer graphics if their
life depended on it.

Jim Liddil



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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:48:27 -0400
From: gradym at us.ibm.com
Subject: oats in beer, open boiling

In hbd #3422, Jack Schmidling writes about his experience with oats in his
Munich Dark, noting a low OG and no foam in the fermentation.

I have had a few similar experience with small charges (10-15%) of malted
flaked oats in stouts.  I don't know how people make good oatmeal stouts;
every time I try this I get exactly the type of fermentation Jack describes
(lots of bubbles, no foam).  I attribute this to the oats contributing oils
to the wort.  The head retention of such beers is horrible.  How <do>
people use oats (flaked, malted, whatever) and not have this happen?

- --------------

In hbd #3423, Dave Burley writes about faults that occur in beer from
exposure to air, and makes the assertion that "boiling wort in a kettle
fully open to air gives a browning and results in a sherry like flavor in
the beer."

I guess I (and others, maybe) would have a hard time agreeing with this,
seeing as how I and many others do open boils routinely!  I have had dozens
of beers judged in 10s of competitions and never had mention of a 'sherry'
flavor, so it is not just my palate.  I know early on in my brewing
experience that I did make beers with that type of sherry/extract tang
defect - they were always made with extract!  I think that old/poor quality
malt extract is the most common source of the defect Dave describes, not
open boiling.

Matt Grady
Burlington, Vermont



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:12:58 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Alt Grain Bills/Oat Beers 

Fred, it WAS you who brought some outdated Uerige to Ann Arbor a few
years back, wasn't it?  I remember it tasting quite oxidized at about
60(?) days.  So maybe the HSA *does* have an effect on the beer's
lifetime.  But since the beer is mostly drunk before that lifetime is
up, who cares?

=S

>>>>> "Fred" == Fred Waltman <fwaltman at mediaone.net> writes:

    Fred> When asked if they were worried about HSA,
    Fred> the brewer said it helped improve the color. Of course, 95%
    Fred> of their beer is drunk within a month of brewing.


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:19:11 -0400
From: Mike Maceyka <mmaceyka at bc.georgetown.edu>
Subject: Re: La Fin Du Monde


    Warren White presents a nice summary of his experience with Wyeast
3522 (Achouffe?), and asks about La Fin Du Monde...

    La Fin Du Monde is indeed brewed in Quebec, in the town of Chambly
just east of Montreal.  I think it is definitely in the Westmalle class,
though
I usually prefer the "original".  I recently toured the brewery,
Unibroue, this
summer.  The make a nice line of beers, many with a Belgian-twist.  In
fact,
I found a little creperie just off the Gran Platz in Brussels in 1997
that served
Unibroue exclusively.  Unibroue makes a darker style triple, called
Trois
Pistoles, which to my palate is the best they make.  "1837," a strong
golden,
"Maudite", a lighter double, and "Blanche de Chambly" are also
outstanding.
Their "wheat tripel" Don De Dieu, which is a higher gravity version of
their
blanche, was uncharacteristically uninspiring.

    The tour was not very informative, and the guide claimed that a
different
yeast is used in most all of the beers, which I frankly don't believe.
In a
similar vein, many of the beers have a distinctive orange-like flavor,
which
some have attributed to the yeast but which the local distributer
claimed was
due to spicing.  Oh, and yes, the autolysis is not suprising as all
beers are
bottle conditioned by re-pitching after filtration.  I have never
noticed autolysis
that was distinguishable as such to me, but I did notice a distinctive
"corked"
flavor in the corked bottles when compared to the capped bottles of the
same
beer of the same age (a weird side note - I got this flavor differential
in at least
four of their beers, but I recently got this same flavor in a capped
version of a
friends tripel...).  Two interesting bits were that the brew room had
two cereal
cookers, and the guide suggested that the only sugar source was barley,
wheat,
and corn which they mashed themselves - from the lightness of the big
beers I
would guess that they use a high percentage of corn, though I cannot
pick it
out in their beers.  The other was that they primary their big beers for
weeks,
and age them in the bottle for at least 5 weeks before they leave the
brewery.
This is a major reason that the beers are hard to get, according to the
guide.

Mike Maceyka
Takoma Park, MD








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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:23:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hop_Head at webtv.net
Subject: Wyeast 2633 (Oktoberfest)

Has anyone tried Wyeast 2633 (Oktoberfest)? I found a pack at my local
homebrew store, and bought it. I had never seen it before and the person
working could not tell me anything about it except that it was "new". I
am planning an Oktoberfest/Vienna type of thing for next week and I
figured I would use it. I am just wondering what to expect.



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:33:10 -0400
From: tkneall <tkneall at erols.com>
Subject: RE: Mashed potato in mash

I made a cream ale last December with spuds.  It came out surprisingly
well.  I used 4 lbs. of baking potatos that I shredded and boiled (skins
and all).  The beer had a chill haze for a long time, but it went away.
It gave the beer an interesting character, unlike either corn or rice. 
Initially it had tartness, but that mellowed over time.  It was a unique
beer, but I was never quite sure I really liked it.  The keg did
magically empty however.  Email me provately if you want more details. 
I also posted the recipe in Gambrinus' Mug in the fruit and vegetable
section.

Tim


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:41:19 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  reading

Warren White writes:

>Homebrewing where you read and read and the information that 
>you read becomes oh yeah, read that, done that, tried that so 
>you crave something new and more challenging.

>I've read most of the Homebrewing books i.e. TCJOHB, 
>Homebrewers Companion, New Brewing Lager Beer (definitely 
>antipodean in style to Charlie's books),  Millers books, Classic 
>Styles series etc. Then you think there's not much more I can 
>read, just apply it all to practice.

Precisely!  Despite a what a few anally frustrated librarians out 
there think, home brewing does not depend on cutting edge 
technology.  Most what can be written about home brewing 
has already been written (at least what will be written in MY
ifetime).  

Home brewing is the same as many obscure hobbies.  
Anyone ever subscribe to magazines like Fly Tier, Radio 
Control Airplane Monthly, or Quilting Quarterly?  These 
magazines are in the same boat as Zymurgy and Brewing 
techniques.  Unless you are a helpless fanatic, a few 
years worth of subscriptions is more than enough to get 
you going.  After that it is practice, practice, and more 
practice.  (Time in the brewery = time on the water).

Books are even worse than periodicals because the 
information is usually not updated to any extent after 
the book is published.  And since advances in the 
field of home brewing are CURRENTLY moving at 
a snail's pace, why would anyone bother updating 
a book that has a few debatable errors?  The great 
renaissance of home brewing occurring in last 
decade and a half is over!  The best course of 
action is to put down the books (this assumes 
that you have at least completed some of the 
more basic required reading), get back in the 
brewery, and brew, brew, brew.

Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"



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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:51:57 PDT
From: "Leland Heaton" <rlheaton at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cider

I know this isn't exactly beer-related, but I think this pretty much fits 
here.

I want to make my first Cider for Christmas, but I have a couple of 
questions that I couldn't find answers too.

Some people boil the Cider and some don't,  what are the advantages / 
disadvantages of both?  Besides killing the wild yeasts.

How long in bottles will the Cider be good (I am assuming that the shelf 
life depends upon the recipe, but an average would be nice, because I have 
no information)? I am doing this for Christmas.

I have a couple of recipes from Gamrinus' Mug on www.brewery.org.  Anyone 
try any, or if anyone has done cider and can offer some advice I would 
greatly appreciate it.

Thank you, private emails are ok.

 -Leland
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:15:33 -0500
From: Valerie LD Morey <val.dan.morey at juno.com>
Subject: mashing potatoes

Steve Lacey requested some advice on mashing potatoes.  Just last weekend
I brewed a pre-pro lager honey hybrid (It been a while since I've brewed
free style).  This was my second attempt at using potatoes, both times
with success.

Using potatoes is simple, just remember a few things.

1.  Potatoes are approximately 80% water by weight.  (I'm sure I read
this some where, but I cannot find the source).  They contribute very
little starch per pound.
2.  Potatoes should be sliced or diced before use.
3.  Boil the potatoes with your first infusion to gelatinize the
starches.
4.  The potatoes may break up a bit in the mash causing an increase in
sparge time (if you slice them too fine you could have a stuck mash).

To account for the water mass in the potatoes, I subtract water from my
first addition.  For example, the beer I just brewed normally would have
required 0.9 gallons of water in the first infusion (step infusion mash).
 I had 3 pound of red potatoes.  Therefore I subtracted 0.29 gallons of
water (0.29 gal = 3 lbs * 80% / 8.34lbs/gal).  By doing this, the 
thermal energy required in the initial calculation is approximately the
same (no, I didn't account for the specific heat of the starch portion)
and I hit my target rest temperature.

The main difference I noticed from potato beer is greater clarity.  I
hypothesize this is from the lower protein content in the beer.  Flavor
wise, no complaints.  In about 6 to 8 weeks, I should get my second
change to evaluate the flavor profile of potatoes.

Cheers!
Daniel Morey


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