---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewery automation and mash control ("Todd M. Snyder")
  MO and Haze ("Mark Vernon")
  Re: The mystery of the yawning yeast (Project One)
  Beestons, Marris Otter etc ("Nigel Porter")
  Manhattan, London, Belfast ("Matt Hollingsworth")
  take a closer look at that beer ("Tom Lombardo")
  Plastic carboys (Richard Foote)
  SWMBO ("Al Beers")
  In SJ/SF? (Spencer W Thomas)
  RE: professional kettles and missing the joke ("Brian Lundeen")
  Moth Control (Darla Elsken)
  Can't make it to Germany for Oktoberfest? ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Pumps - Setting the record straight ("Donald D. Lake")
  Re: Restarting Coopers sediment ("Dave McGuinness")
  crystal malt at home? (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  re: liquid ph te sts (Edward Doernberg)
  "Thing", Please Hand Me A Cigar ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  RIMS Automation (Ray Kruse)
  re: Indian Meal Moths (Matthew Comstock)
  RE: Beechwood Aging (Tim  Burkhart)
  FWH == YUM! ("Dan Stedman")
  Otter malt ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re-using Coopers Yeast ("Dave Edwards")
  Saw Dust in wort? ("J. Doug Brown")
  Blue Ridge Brew Off Results ("Jay and Arlene Adams")
  AJ's Experiment, Purging, oak chips (Dave Burley)
  Attention Fridge Guy (Scott Jose)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:42:32 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Brewery automation and mash control

Hi Mike, 

You can absolutely control external circuits using any old PC. Did you
want to program in QuickBasic or VisualBasic? The nicest way is to use
the parallel port, but these controls are only on/off output or on/off
input. If you have access to a A/D board, thats the way to go if you
want to measure and control the mash temperature. If you have a newer
computer you could write a nicer VisualBasic program for it. I'll go
though these one at a time:

>1. How can I turn on a switch to the mashmixer.  Pretty simple question, I 
>think.  Is it called a relay?  I think so.  From the people who have 
>already automated your brewery what relay(s) do you use and where did you 
>get them?

Using the parallel port, you can turn on and off an individual bit so
that if you have a 5VDC relay hooked to that one pin, it'll switch it on
and off. I have a great book on the subject 'Parallel Port Complete' by
Jan Axelson; www.lvr.com. If you'd like, I could write you the specific
info you need, or you could just buy the book and blow your mind! The
book is that good. The relays can be had at RadioShack, or www.mpja.com
for cheaper. It's sort of a surplus place. I would get solid state
relays if possible. They're optically isolated so no voltage spikes or
anything can get back to the computer. 

>2. I do not want a RIMS.  I want to keep the existing propane setup.  I 
>looked in Grainger for a gas valve solenoid and think I've found one that I 
>can use.  Has anyone used a gas valve solenoid?  If so which one and how 
>did you wire it?  Do you need another relay to flip the solenoid switch?  I 
>was thinking of using a small pilot light, so I don't have to worry about 
>igniting and turning on the gas.  If anyone has any better suggestions on 
>this part of the automation, I'd love to hear about it.

I don't blame you for not wanting a RIMS. I started down that road and
quickly realized that it was much cheaper and easier to use a 10 gallon
Gott cooler and hit my target temperatures the first time so I wouldn't
need to adjust temps later on. As far as a solenoid valve for the gas,
you should be able to do that. Get a normally closed valve (NC) suitable
for LP pressure and hopefully 5VDC. That way you wouldn't need a relay.
It may be cheaper though to get a 120VAC valve and use another SSR
relay, like above with same advantage of being isolated. They may have
one cheap at mpja.com, or try www.mcmastercarr.com for more $. 

>I plan on scrounging and finding an old IBM AT or such and one of those 
>cards that plug into it for controlling switches and stuff.  I think it's 
>called an A/D controller. I'm pretty good at programming, so I thought I'd 
>write a basic program that reads the different inputs and turns on switches 

If you can get your hands on an A/D card, do it. If you can't, I just
saw a cheap 12 bit, 8 channel converter for the parallel port at
http://www.mpja.com/product.asp?product=8418+KT for $55. It's a kit,
supposedly, so you may have to do some soldering. I've done one of their
kits for DC motor control and it was no problem. I don't see how it
could require much soldering though, the thing looks tiny. Usually they
spread the circuit out over a board so you can get at the soldering
points, so I think it must be already assembled. I'll have to check my
catalog at home. If you use this one, you'll lose the parallel port, but
it appears to have 4 TTL outputs so you could drive 4 relays. Looks like
you only need 3. If you can free up the parallel port (if you have an
A/D card), you can monitor 5 pins and control 12. Or you could even add
an expansion card with a couple parallel ports for a whole bunch of
input and output lines! But you shouldn't need that.  

>or gas.  For safety I plan on reading the temperature of the HLT or mash 
>and if it doesn't rise in 30 seconds or so shut the gas down and sound an 

Good idea, 30 seconds worth of gas couldn't do too much damage. There
might be a lag in the temperature rise though, so you may have to play
with the software to deal with this. Or maybe there is a electronically
inclined person lurking that could come up with an electric 'eye' that
would verify that the flame is lit and send a signal of 0 or 5VDC to be
read by the parallel port? That's something to work on later.

>alarm.  My inputs and outputs would be:

>Input: HLT temperature
>Input: Mash Temperature

I was just looking at a temperature sensitive resistor at RadioShack, a
thermistor, 103AT. It has 12.09 Kohm resistance at 20C and 0.9735 Kohm
resistance at 100C. If you pulled one of the parallel port pins high
(5VDC) and used it as a voltage source, you could run the thermistor in
series with a fixed resistance and measure the voltage drop across the
resistor using the A/D board. Just make sure the board resistance is
much bigger than the circuit you're monitoring. Shouldn't be a problem,
they're usually on the order of Mohm while you're circuit is on the
order of kohm. I was going to use a 10Kohm resistor, so at 20C you'd
read 2.23 VDC and at 100C you'd see 4.55VDC. They're $2 each, so pretty
cheap. If you use the A/D converter kit from above, it'll only read up
to ~4 VDC, so you'll have to use a smaller resistor, like 5K to bring
the voltage signal down into an acceptable range. At 1K, the voltages
are 0.38V and 2.53VDC which would be ok, but I'd use a larger value to
keep the current down.

>Output: Mashmixer relay(?)
>Output: HLT Gas Solenoid Relay(?)
>Output: Mash Tun Gas Solenoid Relay(?)

As above, parallel port pins (individual bit control) to switch SSR's
on/off, and solenoid valve to control gas flow. The solenoid valves are
probably going to be the most expensive part of this. 

If you'd like some help, let me know. I can give you a couple short (1-2
line) Basic routines that switch on and off individual bits. It all
seems complicated but it's not. You'll be amazed how simple it really
is.  Also might be able to help you getting the A/D card working. Need
to know make and model, do you have any literature on it? The info
should be there, it's just a matter of deciphering it. 

Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY





>Algorithm

>Heat Mash Tun to Strike temp ----> 20 min
>Beep to alert brewer waits for brewer to press enter
>Brewer pours grains in and mixes ---> 2 minutes
>Brewer presses enter to start automation
>system rests for strike rest -----> 15 min
>30 seconds before time is up turn on mashmixer
>Turn on mash tun gas solenoid relay
>Heat until sac rest temp ----> approx. 15 min
>wait for sacc rest time maintaining temp -----> 60 min
>Turn on HLT gas solenoid relay 50 min before end.
>30 seconds before time is up turn on mashmixer
>Turn on mash tun gas solenoid relay
>Heat until mash out temp is reached ----> approx. 20 min
>alert brewer that it is time to sparge.
>done.
 
>any thoughts?

Sounds good. 

> - Mike from New Lenox, Il.


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:34:27 -0700
From: "Mark Vernon" <mark at pleasantstreet.com>
Subject: MO and Haze

In digest #3432 Nathaniel Lansing states
>If I remember correctly MO is the only winter barley to be approved
>for malting. This is because winter barleys tend to be too high in
>protein levels. Maris Otter is the lowest protein level of the winter
>barleys but it is still high, 11.5 the last spec sheet I saw. Perhaps=20
>haze is the typical with MO. It is marketed for its' flavor, not its'
>chill-proof ability. Granted a few process problems could lead to
>haze but with several people mentioning the problem it could
>be the source barley's characteristic.
>
>NP Lansing
I only use Muntons Marris Otter for my Ales and have NEVER had a problem =
with haze, exactly the opposite in fact..all my brews are crystal clear =
with just a standard single infustion mash, so I know the haze problem =
is not typical behavior for all Marris Otter malt

Mark Vernon
Pleasant Street Brewery
www.pleasantstreet.com




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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:34:20 -0800
From: Project One <project1 at pond.net>
Subject: Re: The mystery of the yawning yeast

Jason,

I've been going through this recently with 1338.  Did a single decoction 
Octoberfest-ale sorta thing, pitched w/ 1338 shampoo tube without a 
starter.  It was about 80% Munich, but mashed at 148 so it (theoretically) 
would be pretty fermentable.  Started at 1.063.  After about 6 days or so, 
it looked like the yeast was about done.  I did as I always do, and roused 
the yeast & left it for a few more days.  After 12 days in primary, racked 
to secondary.  SG was 1.036!!  Pitched a pack of Danstar Nottingham, hoping 
it would help it finish.  After another week (all the while the airlock was 
bubbling slowly), it was only at 1.032.  Added 1/2-1 tsp. of yeast 
nutrient.  Checked yesterday and it was finally down to 1.018 and airlock 
activity seemed nonexistent.  This was all over the course of 5 
weeks!  Anyway, gonna bottle the sucker tonight & hope for the best.  BTW, 
tasting the hydrometer sample, the beer was delicious.  Not at all what I 
set out to make, but hey, it was beer & it tasted good.

                 ------------>Denny

At 12:19 AM 9/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:57:42 GMT
>From: "Foster Jason" <jasfoster at hotmail.com>
>Subject: The mystery of the yawning yeast
>
>If I may humbly request some insight into a fermentation that I have never
>experienced.
>
>On August 23, I brewed up an ale. A 70 minute mash completed conversion
>(tested with an iodine test). Boil, cooling, etc. all went according to
>plan. No hitches. Original gravity 1.060. Also, I added 500g brown sugar to
>the boil (an intentional addition for this recipe only).
>
>I have never seen this slow a fermentation before. I have done this recipe
>before - but not with this yeast. It went perfectly last time - fully
>fermented in a week, with a couple weeks after for clearing.
>
>So, what's up? Can anyone help? Should I add more yeast? Or not worry and
>just wait longer?
>
>Perplexed in Edmonton.
>
>Jason Foster
>Edmonton, Alberta, Canada




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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:15:27 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.co.uk>
Subject: Beestons, Marris Otter etc

Well said Robin - summed up exactly what I was going to say.

As for the person who said they wouldn't buy any more Beestons 
malt, that won't be a problem as the powers to be have decided to 
shut the maltings - it is situated in a nice old building in the centre of a 
town, which is worth a fortune for redeveloped into posh flats.

Beestons is one of the last traditional floor maltings left in the UK. 
The owners (one of the big maltsers, can't remember who) is 
planning to move prodcution to their industrial malting plant - not sure 
if the name Beestons will still survive.

I use Beestons Marris Otter alsmost exclusivly as my base malt and 
havn't noticed any problems with it - there again I don't chill my ales. 
Also, what is the problem with a chill haze - does it affect the taste? 
Remember you drink with your mouth not your eyes.

Also, am I right in assuming wanker is not a known term in the US? 
Back to two nations (or three including the Aussies) seperated by a 
common language again.

Nigel
Guildford, UK


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Date: 19 Sep 2000 12:04:32 -0700
From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart at spiritone.com>
Subject: Manhattan, London, Belfast

Hello!

In late October/early November I'll be visiting these cities.  I'm hoping to
try micro/brewpub beer and real ale, and am looking for recommendations.  I
like worn in places rather than hardcore tourist traps, but anything with
really good beer is acceptable.  Anyobody with places to recommend or even
books to check out on the subject can e-mail me or post here. (Of course,
I'll check out CAMRAs book)

Thanks for any help.

Cheers!

 -Matt 


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:08:47 -0500
From: "Tom Lombardo" <toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us>
Subject: take a closer look at that beer

Ever wonder what beer looks like through a microscope?  Check out
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/beershots/index.html

Tom



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:13:05 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Plastic carboys

A couple HBD'ers out there asked whether plastic carboys were Okay to use
as fermenters.  The two plastics identified were no. 1 (PETE) and 3 (V).
Also, those plastic water bottles used on commercial water coolers were
also mentioned.

No. 1 or PETE plastic (Polyethylene Terephthalate) is a polyester based
plastic that is approved for food contact use.  It is used for soda
bottles, cooking oil bottles, salad dressing, catsup bottles and even
[gasp], beer bottles.  Because PETE does not provide an oxygen barrier by
itself, the beer and plastic folks spent a lot of time and research to
develop the new beer bottle that is so loved by beer lovers and recyclers
alike.  To solve the oxygen barrier problem, the PETE beer bottle had to be
made of several (six I think) layers.  One of these layers is the actual O2
barrier layer.  Your PETE water bottle would not have this.  So if O2
permeability is a concern...

No. 3 is Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC).  This is used in many food contact
containers, especially cooking oils and some bottled water bottles.

The other plastic used for commercial water coolers is polycarbonate, a
rather rigid and inflexible clear plastic.

Many of these 5 gal. water bottles have ridges molded in for strength.  One
concern would be ease of cleaning.  Oxygen permeability would be a concern
as far as oxidation.  That's why they had to resort to the multi-layer
plastic beer bottle.  

I know when I was looking for an oxygen barrier bag for storing hops, no
single plastic on its own would do the job.  I ended up with an LDPE (low
density polyethylene), mylar, PETE combo.

My two cents.  


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA 



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:14:41 EDT
From: "Al Beers" <albeers at hotmail.com>
Subject: SWMBO


<By the way, what is a SWMBO?

<Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

________
That would be "She Who Must Be Obeyed".

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:36:37 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: In SJ/SF?

Ok, so I'm in San Jose for a conference on Oct 4-6.  I'm arriving
fairly late on the 4th at SFO, but a beer or two before hitting the
sack is always good. :-)  I'm departing SJO in a rush the evening of
the 6th.

Anyone in the area up for hoisting a few the night of the 5th?  You
say where, and I'll buy the first round (well, within reason ;-).

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:41:25 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: professional kettles and missing the joke

Glen Pannicke writes:
>
> Regarding Open Kettles, Brian Lundeen wrote:
>
> >In the interest of trying to sort out these seemingly
> conflicting ideas,
> can
> >someone describe the mechanics of a professional brew kettle?
>
> I think Brian's question may be a bit rhetorical, but I'll
> offer what I know
> anyway...
>

Well, actually it wasn't meant that way, I really did want to know how these
things work. Surely, I'm not perceived as a provocateur, am I? ;-) Anyway,
thanks for what you posted.

The wort
> is then passed
> back through the MIDDLE of the tank (below the wort level)
> and shot through
> a "boiling fountain" to a point above the wort level where it
> is dispersed
> by an adjustable spreader and allowed to fall onto the
> surface of the wort.
> All kinds of agitation and splashing going on here!

But... but... but... won't that lead to...

And Frank Tutzauer clues me in on the joke with:

> And if I'm not mistaken, Tony Clifton was an exceedingly rude
> alter ego of
> the commedian Andy Kaufman, so don't read too much into his comments.
> It's satire.  At least a little bit.

Well, not being a fan of Mr Kaufman, I totally missed that. All this time
I've been ranting at a fictional character. I'm sure in real life "Tony" is
a mild-mannered, polite, well-spoken chap who I'm sure I could sit down with
over a nice glass of Chardonnay and


Jeez, it cost me a few hundred bucks but it was worth it to come up here and
deal with this little puke! Cripes, I've gotten more fight back from a twist
off cap than I got from this weenie-wanker. Well, this should shut him up
for a while.

That's it, I'm done, and so's this freakin' crybaby!

Tony Clifton



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:22:15 -0400
From: Darla Elsken <elsken at home.com>
Subject: Moth Control

n HBD #3433, Pat Babcock wrote:

>I once had a moth infestation - oddly, they came in some hamster food
and
>quickly migrated to all the cereals in the pantry.

We suffered a similar malady.  The little buggers get into everything.

>Now, my garage has an infestation of the little buggers, but only on
>the mill (all grains are contained in things they can't chew through).

Once we had cleaned up all the cereal boxes and the cabinets, we used a
product called "Pantry Pest Trap".  It contains a pherome to attract the

little moths, but the inside of the box is sticky and captures the
bugs.  We got ours at Gardens Alive (www.gardens-alive.com, nayyy),
although I have seen them in other mail order supply catalogs.

Kevin Elsken





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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:49:58 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Can't make it to Germany for Oktoberfest?

Hey y'all,

a friend sent me the following today, hope you find it interesting.
the short version - go to
http://www.sensormatic.com/videocon/wiesn2k.html
and you'll see half a dozen web cams focused on Oktoberfest, or a live feed -
way cool for those of us who can't make it!

anyway, here's a longer version (might as well give the sponsor their
due) - - -

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl


    Want to attend Oktoberfest in Germany but can't afford the plane ticket?
Just log onto www.sensormatic.com on September 16 - October 3 and you'll be
able to attend the festivities virtually.

    When Oktoberfest, the world's largest beer festival, opens its gates in
Munich, Germany later this month, more than two million visitors will flock to
the festival from all over the world. Attendees will enjoy a dozen beer
tents - equipped with up to 10,000 seats each and featuring spectacular
carousel rides, traditional Bavarian atmosphere and brass bands.

    Now, (NYSE:SRM) and a team of German companies are making Oktoberfest,
also called Wiesn, accessible to everyone in the world. With the WiesnCam2000,
Internet users can view a live transmission of Oktoberfest.

    "The WiesnCam2000 is based on Sensormatic's leading edge digital video
transmission technology," says John Smith, executive vice president of
Sensormatic's Europe/Middle East/Asia Operations. "This site will allow us to
demonstrate the capabilities of our newest digital video transmission system,
EYE-C, and its related software technology by transmitting live video footage
from six cameras at the festival directly over the Internet."



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:00:29 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Pumps - Setting the record straight

Quite some time ago I posted a response to an inquiry regarding the use
of food grade magnetic pumps in brewing.  I gave my two cents and
basically said thatbased on my experience the performance of pumps were
marginal when pushing hot liquids.

Although I never mentioned any names of where I bought the pump, Bill
Stewart of Moving Brews , recognized my name and called me to inquire
about the problems I was having.  After spending an enormous amount of
time on the phone asking questions and analyzing the problem, he
suggested that the problem may have been restrictions due the size of my
valve and false bottom pick tube (which I bought elsewhere).  The valve
was 1/2" stainless from ACE Hardware and the pickup tube was 3/8" from
ABS. The pump & hose fittings were 1/2".  Remarkably, Bill said that
there are different internal diameters on different 1/2" ball valves.

After asking even more questions, he guessed that the problem was with
the 3/8" stainless pickup tube.  I mailed him my old one and Bill
fabricated new stainless 1/2" for me.  After receiving the new one, I
set it aside for a few weeks while SWMBO assigned me some other
projects.  To his credit, Bill called me every few days to see if I have
given it a test run to see if it solved my problems.  It did!

I now love using my pump (sounds strange doesn't it).  Bill Stewart of
Moving Brews deserves a full salute for providing service above and
beyond the call of duty.  I'm only sorry it took me so long to set the
record straight.  Here's his website.
http://www.movingbrews.com

Don Lake
Windermere Brewing Co.  a division of Lake Water Brewery and
wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc

PS We had our shareholders meeting at the 8th Annual Beer Fest at the
Orlando Fair Grounds this past Friday and fended off a hostile takeover
attempt from the Ocoee Brewing Co.



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:19:52 +1000
From: "Dave McGuinness" <dmcguinn at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Restarting Coopers sediment

I've also read that you can restart Cooper yeast, and that it makes a good
ale yeast once going. However, despite several attempts using malt extract
I've had no sucess. I concluded that the stuff I'm getting is dead, but
don't really know what the caper is.



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:26:14 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: crystal malt at home?

Hello,

Graham Sanders wrote about home roasting (#3433). I have a question (for him
or someone else).
I did a little experiment (is it possible mashing without crushing the malt
and/or is it possible to make crystal malt from pilsener malt at home):
Experiment 1:
50 grams (1.76 oz) crushed pilsener malt in 150 ml (5.3 oz) water. The malt
had a moisture content of 8.8 % (120 degr.C=248 F).
After 15 min. 51 degr.C (124 F), 30 min. 63 degr.C (145 F) and 15 min. 73
degr.C (163 F) the fluid was negative with iodine, solids were positive
(blue staining). 
After another 15 minutes at 73 degr.C (163 F) both the fluid and solids were
negative with iodine. I filtered and calculated about 69 % extract (with
refractometer in filtrate). Dried (120 degr.C=248 F)spent grains were 11.9 g
(0.4 oz), so 74 % extract (not quite, because I used some kernels for the
iodine test). 
Experiment 2:
50 grams (1.76 oz) NOT crushed pilsener malt in 150 ml (5.3 oz) water.
After 15 min. 51 degr.C (124 F), 30 min. 63 degr.C (145 F) and 15 minutes at
73 degr.C (163 F) the fluid was iodine negative but even after 120 min. at
73 degr.C (163 F) the solids remain positive with iodine. I filtered and
calculated about 20 % extract (with refractometer in filtrate). Dried spent
grains were 33.5 g (1.18 oz). Filtration went very fast (to fast). 
Experiment 3:
50 grams (1.76 oz) NOT crushed pilsener malt in 35 ml (1.23 oz) water
("au-bain-marie").
Again 15 min. 51 degr.C (124 F), 30 min. 63 degr.C (145 F) and 120 min. 73
degr.C (163 F) and the kernels are still positive with iodine. I dried at
120 degr.C (248 F) 43.4 g (1.53 oz) and could smell the caramel flavor.

My conclusions:
1. it is not possible mashing without crushing the malt.
2. it is not possible to make crystal malt from pilsener malt (at home).
Anybody with a divergent opinion/experience? I know, in a maltery they use
green malt to make crystal malt.
Any suggestions why the saccharification doen't take place (for 100%) with
uncrushed malt??
Greetings from Holland (Europe),
Hans Aikema
http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:56:54 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: re: liquid ph te sts

the corect subject is: re: liquid ph tests

stupid ban on posts with test in subject line

"A. J." ajdel at mindspring.com claims I had a point when I stated the colour
of beer would interfere with a reading using a liquid test kit. I have
received a private emale from Grant Stott (the person that originally said
liquid tests cold be used) saying he intended it for use on the sparge water
and let the mash fall where it may.

A.J. also mentioned "the Redox State of beer" and something called rH. I
remember redox reactions from year 11 chem but not redox state and I have no
idea what rH is.  Can you pleas clarify these points. If its not to much
trouble also what dose pH stand for and did the tannins that leached out of
the maly root in my aquarium corse the pH to do anything the test kit didn't
notice (the water was the colour of strong tee).

Edward



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:10:01 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: "Thing", Please Hand Me A Cigar

If anyone has had something rude and nasty to say about me lately, please
accept my apology for lack of response. I have been snowed under with extra
curricula activities (that being anything other than beer related) and am
shamefully several HBD's behind.

But I see Ray Kruse is safely home and has developed his photos.
Geezus strewth! What a family photo!!
I know we act like the Adam's Family here but I never realised we also look
so much like them!

I'm in need of another rice lager after observing that!

It was great to have Ray and his wife here for a visit. As I have often
said, I wish more of us could do it more often.
Maybe Dave Edwards wouldn't have to be belting poor Freddy about the ears if
they could just get together for a beer.

Now about Doc Pivo, a lot of you have asked how he is. His last post titled
: "Highly Salacious Admonitions" really gave us some indication of the
tremendous pressure the poor Doc is under. What with winter and all coming
on in Sweden, it gets the Doc every time.
But thankyou for asking.
After a bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down, he is resting lightly and
doing just fine.
Though I have to admit, none of us are quite willing to loosen the straps
from his bed just yet.

I must apologise for recently insulting my own rice lager, it was a savage
and uncalled for attack. Besides, as I have already drunk 25 litres of it, I
can't seriously tell people I don't really like the stuff!

Looking forward to yet again insulting someone when I get around to catching
up on HBD's. Now I know how Al K must feel, but that poor bugger is some
eight months behind. He hasn't got a hope of ever getting through them. But
I admire him for trying.

Cheers
Gomez




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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:53:06 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RIMS Automation

Dave Howell responded:

>> Has anyone used a gas valve solenoid? If so which one and how did you
wire
>> it? Do you need another relay to flip the solenoid switch?
> Solenoids are highly inductive loads, if you use a relay (and not a
solid
> state one), you must snub the contacts with a diode back-biased, or
you will
> quickly cause emf in your driver circuit, and pit/melt the relay
contacts.
> Many industrial control houses sell solenoid valves (see www.omega.com
for
> one).  Have you considered a ball valve and servo arrangement?  Servos
can
> control the amount/flow of gas, ball valves are cheaper and available
in the
> local hardware store, and you won't draw a lot of current holding it
open.
>
First, you have assumed that the solenoid is DC without stating your
assumption.  If you use a 'snubber' diode on an AC circuit, you'll
either blow the fuse, fry the diode, or fry
the power source.

In any event, the supply isn't as germane to this subject as the next
item, which is a ball valve purchased at your local industrial control
house.  This half-information is too dangerous to leave unrebutted.  Use

valves only rated for combustible gases.  You can get them at industrial

supply houses (outrageously expensive due to FM industrial
requirements), but a better source, and one that will have exactly what
you need in a 'safe valve' would be an appliance repair shop that sells
parts to the public.  You need a gas valve for a water heater or
furnace.

> >I was thinking of using a small pilot light, so I don't have to worry
about
>> igniting and turning on the gas. If anyone has any better suggestions
on
>> this part of the automation, I'd love to hear about it.
> Use a 1.5 volt barbecue sparker, you can get from your local
home-supply
> mega-depot berbecue parts section.  If you opt to build a board, drive
it
> from your unregulated supply, switch it with a transistor, and use a
RC
> lowpass filter (10 KHz or so) on the line (or a ferrite bead). If you
use a
> serial IO module or a PLC, then you may need to provide a separate
power
> supply.  In either case, if you drive it from your digital board, then

> filter it.  To ignite, spark it about 1/3 sec after you open the
valve, and
> spark it three times, 1/3 sec apart.
>
Now that you've got the gas flowing and no safety interlocks, what
happens if your spark doesn't ignite the gas?  Or if you have a hiccup
in the gas and lose the flame?  Best bet (unless you want to be the
owner of the largest hole in the neighborhood) is to get a
pilot/thermocouple assembly that goes with the gas valve I mentioned
above.

You can still do the automation that you want by automating the main gas

valve which will open the small amount of gas to the pilot light, while
having the main flame gas source controlled by the pilot.  Put your
sparker on the pilot.  The pilot will provide the protection you need
for the main flame, unless you want to add the UV flame sensors and
other related equipment.

> Some other things to consider:
> The solenoid should have contacts on it (a switch) that close when the
valve
> is physically open.

Actually, you shouldn't care as much about when the valve is fully open
as you do when the valve is not fully closed.  Any leakage from a valve
5-95% open that is unreported is what you are interested in knowing.

It's not worth losing your house.  Use the right equipment, think it
through, and do it safely.

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Indian Meal Moths

Hi, I'm Matt (Hi Matt), and I had an Indian Meal
Moth infestation last year (clap clap clap). 

Look, you don't want these, they are hard to get
rid of.  Whenever you read about putting your
grain in plastic buckets, I am convinced its to
keep the worms from getting out, NOT in.  If
you're interested search for "Indian meal moth"
on ways (twelve step program?) to get rid of em.

So I am paranoid about bugs in the grain now (who
can blame them, really).  I have an extra fridge.
 There shouldn't be any problems with storing
grain there, right, aside from condensation, and
mold, etc.?  Does cooling or freezing mess with
the enzymes, etc.  Keeping the grain cold ought
to slow down the life cycle, right, so any eggs
shouldn't hatch in the short (3 - 4 months) term.

Matt in Cincy


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:06:44 -0500
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: RE: Beechwood Aging

Cris Cooper's question about Beechwood at AB breweries reminded me I was in
St. Louis for the AB tour two weeks ago. The best part of the tour was the
lagering facility with those huge 3000 barrel tanks.

Anyhoo, I was confused by the "tea strainers" with the beech chips in them.
In the lager facility they were displayed in the tea strainer thingy... in
the following video presentation of the brewing process, a brewery worker
was shown raking the chips in the bottom of one of those gigantic tanks.

I looked on their website tour and it says they cover the bottom of the
tanks with up to 1/12 feet of chips... so which is it? Why put the chips in
a special strainer looking container if you are just dumping them directly
into the tanks? The tea strainer wouldn't seem to have much surface area (it
was approx. 6' long by 3' diameter) for 3000 barrels of beer. Anyone?

A final word... I did enjoy the tour of Budweiser... fresh Bud is not a bad
beer... however, I can't believe I was served their specialty Hefeweizen out
of a BOTTLE! Eee gads, at least they could have pretended to pull it from
the tap under the counter instead of brazenly opening it in front of me. I
was so stunned, I went back to my seat and drank it out of that tiny
wax-paper cup and cried silently to myself.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:14:39 -0500
From: "Dan Stedman" <dstedman at mn.rr.com>
Subject: FWH == YUM!

Hi all - nothing scientific here, just wanted to let you all
know that I tried first wort hopping weekend before last.
All signs point to a deliciously hoppy beer that has very
good flavor & aroma. My FWH for a 10 gallon batch of pale
ale were 2.75 ounces of 6.5 AA Cascade hops, after which it
took about 30 minutes to batch sparge and get to a boil. I
boiled for 30 minutes, added 2 ounces of 5.6 AA Perle hops,
and boiled for another 60 minutes. That's it. No late hop
additions whatsoever, and this is probably the hoppiest
flavor I've ever achieved in a beer.

I guess I'll have to try mash hopping now!

Dan in Minnetonka, MN, USA



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:25:00 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Otter malt

Paul mentioned a lower extract % with Otter,
>>the malt was mealy to the point of
nearly milling itself.  In brewing, this results in about 20%
lower extract than normal, at least using my techniques, <<

In my info from Crisp they list the characters of the various
malts, aromatic, bready, toasty and etc. for Otter they say
"Run-off speed- Very slow" So perhaps at a normal run-off
rate there is some extract left behind in the grain bed? The
dry basis % seemed in line for other fully converted malts
81-82 so the potential is there.

Del


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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:22:31 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Re-using Coopers Yeast


Matthew Tolley pondered the following dilema:

| I've read about restarting yeast from the sediment in bottle conditioned
| beers, and thought I'd give the Coopers ago.  I put it in the fridge,
waited
| for the sediment to settle, and carefully poured off all but the last inch
| or so of beer (which I was forced to drink, alas).  I boiled up a cup of
| water with a tablespoon of dextrose, cooled it to 26oC, and added it to
the
| bottle.  I shook it up, topped it off with a cork and airlock, and went to
| bed.
|
| Next day - nada.  I shook it up, and moved it to the lounge room where it
| was a bit warmer.  Still nothing.  It's just sitting there, looking
| decidedly unfrothy.

It's okay mate, don't panic just yet. I encountered this same problem when I
first tried to culture from a bottle of Coopers. Apparently, there really
isn't all that high of a residual yeast count, and it does take some time to
kick in. I have had some take as much as 6 days before they arc up. You will
need to feed them a few times to get the numbers up as well, but in the end
you'll most likely get a good quality bunch of yeast.

Another thing is use DME instead of Dextrose to get the little beggars up.
Malt is supposed to have more nutrient than Dextrose and generally better
for them, but I am definitely not a guru and could be way wrong on this. I
have often read to add yeast nutrient even when adding DME to starters just
to help it along. Sounds good, something that I've never bothered with but.

Cheers,
Dave.



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:00:02 -0400
From: "J. Doug Brown" <dougbrown at citynet.net>
Subject: Saw Dust in wort?

Greetings,
  Was reading the hbd and saw a post about adding saw dust to get a wood 
aged flavor.  All of the sudden it hit me.  Wouldn't that cause the 
production of wood alcohol?  I've heard that wood alcohol can cause 
blindness and even death.  Will any wood products in contact with 
fermenting wort cause the production of wood alcohol?  Are there 
acceptable limits of wood alcohol consumption without harmfull effects, 
or does wood alcohol stay in the body like a heavy metal and have a 
cummulative effect on the human body?

  Thanks for any info
  Doug Brown
  dougbrown at citynet.net



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:54:54 -0400
From: "Jay and Arlene Adams" <goosepoint at teleplex.net>
Subject: Blue Ridge Brew Off Results

The winners list of the Bllue Ridge Brew Off htat was held in Asheville, NC
on September 9, 2000 may be found at
http://www.caveartstudios.com/malt/brbo.html

Congratulations to all of the winners and thanks to all who participated!

Cheers!

Jay Adams
BRBO Organizer



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:19:09 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: AJ's Experiment, Purging, oak chips

Brewsters:

AJ's  excellent experiment at determining the relationship between sugars
and SG was fun to read.

My question is, though, how did you form a  starch "solution" of about 2%.
Did you mean a slurry? Or how did you dissolve the starch? I would guess
that a 2% starch solution would be pretty viscous?

Intuitively, in a slurry, the bulk density will be affected by a slurry %,
but I am of the impression that the SG of the slurry will depend only on
dissolved components.?? Is this corrrect?
- --------------------------------
David Sweeney asks how to purge his keg.

Many brewers are under the impression that they can just blow in CO2 and
purge all the air from the keg in a minute or two.

Not !!   I have even met professional micro-brewers who suffer from this
same delusion. And their beers taste like it.

As gases mix freely, especially when they are in motion in a small space 
(like your keg) you will have to have many volumes of CO2 before you get
the oxygen down to a few ppm. I think I once calculated it would take about
5 pounds of CO2 to get a low O2 in your keg, assuming plug flow with a 50%
percent of back mixing. 

Think of it this way. At atmospheric ( and for ease in calculations that a
5 gallon keg is 22.4 liters at STP) the oxygen content in a keg is 20% or
about 150 mm of  Hg pressure. If we assume one volume of gas injected would
reduce this by half to 10%, two to 5%., 3 to 2.5%, 4 to 1.25%, 5 to 0.625%,
6 to 0.312%, 7 to 0.15%, 8 to 0.075, 9 to 0.037%, 10 to 0.018%.  This would
have required about 10 moles ( 50 gallons of gas)  of CO2 to  get here and
this would weigh 10X44 grams or 440 grams or about a  pound and the oxygen
content would be 0.018% or 0.00792g or 180 ppm. Not nearly enough.  You can
see where this is leading.

Another way to think about this is how much CO2 would you have to add to 5
gallons of air to dilute the oxygen to 1 ppm? Oxygen is 20 % or about 6
grams in a 5 gallon keg. To dilute this to ppm you would have to add 6 X (
32/44)  million grams of CO2 or 4.36 million grams of CO2. Or Lots of
pounds.  

So, however you choose to model this, the point is - don't expect just
blowing CO2 into a tank full of air will do you any good in a reasonable
time or amount of CO2.

The way I do it is to fill the keg to the very top with water and push the
water out with CO2. This guarantees you will have a totally purged keg and
use a minimum of gas.
- -------------------------------------------
If you use oak chips be sure you sterilize them first by pressure cooking
them dry ( water in the bottom of the pan, of course) by placing them in a
bowl or something out of the water. Oak chips carry lactobacillus. Add any
water which collects in the bowl to the beer also.

Remember that most oak beer barrels ( except in case of some Belgian beers)
 were treated with pitch to allow the breweries to keep them clean by
steaming and prevent infecting the new beer.  Except in very high alcohol,
highly hopped beers the lifetime in an untreated barrel would be pretty
short, IMHO. I conclude that oak is not a taste commmon to the older beers,
unless you are thinking about the lactobacillus infected "stale" ales used
to make three threads, porter and such.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:37:02 -0700
From: Scott Jose <sejose at pacbell.net>
Subject: Attention Fridge Guy

Fridge Guy are you out there?  I did a brew last weekend and went to plug in
my fermenting fridge.  It fired up then immediately shut down as soon as I
plugged it in.  I pulled the plug and then plugged it back in and it did the
same thing.  It has worked fine for years but now this.  Between brew
sessions I leave it unplugged (I use another fridge for my keg).  I fiddled
with the temp contoller wheel inside, it made no difference.  I use a
Johnson temp controller with this fridge, but it's not to blame, as I moved
it to my keg fridge and have my fermenter in there right now.

I'm pretty good at troubleshooting and fixing stuff, but I have no knowledge
base with fridges.  Where do I start?

Thanks,
Scott in Auburn, California



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