---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  FW: Automated Process Control (automating your brew setup) ("Dave Howell")
  FW: Automated Process Control (automating your brew setup) ("Dave Howell")
  Stainless in Seattle out of business? ("Donald D. Lake")
  Restarting Coopers sediment (TOLLEY Matthew)
  HBD costs (TOLLEY Matthew)
  Bugs In Malt ("Weaver, Joseph Todd  Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM")
  The Baron (Ray Kruse)
  yeast, fruit, ph,bugs ("Graham Sanders")
  Question re: Chlorophenols ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Tej ("Kruska, Russ")
  oak shavings ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re: HBD costs (Some Guy)
  More on problems with British malts/Weissheimer Pils (Paul Shick)
  Re: Copper in a brew system (The Freemans)
  Gravity Contribution of Sugars ("A. J.")
  The 3-ring circus project ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  CO2 purging procedure ("Sweeney, David")
  Cincinnati (Dan Listermann)
  home roasting / aussies and humor... ("Curt Abert")
  New Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest (Vachom)
  RE: copper Pipes in my HERMS (Marc Donnelly)
  RE: Copper Pipes in my HERMS -- question (Chris Cooper)
  Counterflow Wort Chiller (Nathan Kanous)
  Sheaff Stout & 2 Belgain Ales (adam larsen)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:19:14 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net>
Subject: FW: Automated Process Control (automating your brew setup)


I had to break this into two peieces because of the 8k restriction on
posting size....

In re Mike Kowalczyk's post on brewery automation:

> I don't know much about the components to this type of automation, so if
anyone can help me on the following points, I would appreciate it.
Hope I can...
>1. How can I turn on a switch to the mashmixer. Pretty simple question, I
think. Is it called a relay? I think so. From the people who have already
automated your brewery what relay(s) do you use and where did you get them?
Depends on the horsepower of the motor.  You should find a current rating
for it, and your choices are dictated by that current rating.
Best to use a solid state relay, which has in it some semiconductor devices
called photodiacs and triacs, and some other goodies. This is best if you
are going to use a logic level output (3-32V Vdd, 20 mA drain) from
something like a PC IDE card or some alternatives I'll outline below.  If
you don't want to use a solid-state relay (cost), then go to Radio Shack,
and pick up a 12V coil, 10A, solder-lug terminal relay.  You can use
crimp-on spade connectors (the smaller variety) and 18 AWG. wire.  The coil
is max rating at 12VDC, probably around 70-120 mA (there are several
varieties); you can probably drive it with +5V.  If you use a solid state
relay, look at Grayhill part 70S2-04-B-06-S, it has nice screw post
terminals, and handles 6A  at  120VAC.  You can get it from Digi-Key at
www.digikey.com.

> Has anyone used a gas valve solenoid? If so which one and how did you wire
it? Do you need another relay to flip the solenoid switch?
Solenoids are highly inductive loads, if you use a relay (and not a solid
state one), you must snub the contacts with a diode back-biased, or you will
quickly cause emf in your driver circuit, and pit/melt the relay contacts.
Many industrial control houses sell solenoid valves (see www.omega.com for
one).  Have you considered a ball valve and servo arrangement?  Servos can
control the amount/flow of gas, ball valves are cheaper and available in the
local hardware store, and you won't draw a lot of current holding it open.

>I was thinking of using a small pilot light, so I don't have to worry about
igniting and turning on the gas. If anyone has any better suggestions on
this part of the automation, I'd love to hear about it.
Use a 1.5 volt barbecue sparker, you can get from your local home-supply
mega-depot berbecue parts section.  If you opt to build a board, drive it
from your unregulated supply, switch it with a transistor, and use a RC
lowpass filter (10 KHz or so) on the line (or a ferrite bead). If you use a
serial IO module or a PLC, then you may need to provide a separate power
supply.  In either case, if you drive it from your digital board, then
filter it.  To ignite, spark it about 1/3 sec after you open the valve, and
spark it three times, 1/3 sec apart.


>I plan on scrounging and finding an old IBM AT or such and one of those
cards that plug into it for controlling switches and stuff. I think it's
called an A/D controller. I'm pretty good at programming, so I thought I'd
write a basic program that reads the
>different inputs and turns on switches or gas. For safety I plan on reading
the temperature of the HLT or mash and if it doesn't rise in 30 seconds or
so shut the gas down and sound an alarm. My inputs and outputs would be:
Input: HLT temperature Input:
>Mash Temperature Output: Mashmixer relay(?) Output: HLT Gas Solenoid
Relay(?) Output: Mash Tun Gas Solenoid Relay(?)

For that board, one good place to look is www.computerboards.com. On the
board, the ADCs and DACs are probably memory mapped to some address in the
PCI/IDE space:  make sure that if you go this route there is a GOOD driver
available for the card. It's about $150.

Some other things to consider:
The solenoid should have contacts on it (a switch) that close when the valve
is physically open.  You can use that to report the state of the gas flow,
at the expense of another input port or pin on your board or controller.
Make a temperature sensor (this can be found here in hbd.org at
http://www.hbd.org/users/mtippin/thermometer.html, or by a search on the web
for homebrew temperature controllers), use a LM35 temperature sensor or a
NPN transistor wired as a hyperabrupt junction diode (collector and base
tied), or use the Dallas Semiconductor DS1821.  I recommend not using
conditioned sensors (i.e. thermocouples or other thermistors).  If you use
an analog sensor, you will need to find a board for the AT that has 8 bit
ADC that may be read from the board I/O addresses.  If you use the Dallas
Semi, you will need to set up direct bit reads and fairly accurate timing on
the board I/O pins so you can use the digital output of the device.  If you
haven't given PID control any thought, use a PID algorithm to monitor the
temperature (so you don't overshoot during the mash, and so that you don't
have to reset setpoints or program in greater control when the season
changes from summer to winter).  You can find PID algs in many places on the
Web.

Continued in next post


Dave Howell

Note:  there were NO plugs for the company I work for in this entire post!




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:19:17 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net>
Subject: FW: Automated Process Control (automating your brew setup)

Continued from last post...

For approximately $150, you can buy a PID controller from Omega Engineering
(controls the temperature of your mash).  You still have to buy the relays,
and you still have the solenoid control programming to deal with.  You can
also buy some serial IO controllers from Omega or ComputerBoards for approx.
$150 ea, which take a digital (RS232 or RS485) serial stream of ASCII data
and turn on switches and report inputs.  Omega or other industrial control
places sell temperature sensors, too.  You can run a modified RS-485 from
your COM1 port (yes, I know it's RS-232, but an internet search will show
you how to wire it so the devices will work), or you can use a RS-232/485
Line Driver card (Black Box electronics sells them www.blackbox.com, cat #
IC477A-M-R2, for about $100.  Other folks will have similar pricing.).  This
will allow you to use that older 286 or 386 PC with only wiring, port
control, and your control algorithms to do.

Look at Programmable Logic Controllers, especially ones from
www.tri-plc.com.  This is like buying an embedded microcontroller with all
your interfaces pre-installed (and then some!).  You get to program it in a
BASIC variant.  This is pretty cheap, probably around $250 by the time you
select add-on options that you'll need.  The analog outputs are probably
marginal for your solenoids and mixer motor, check your motor and solenoid
ratings.

OK, now the real challenge:  Why not use an embedded microcontroller (either
on your IDE card or on a wirewrap or prototype board) and make your own PLC?
The Basic Stamp from Parallax is perfect.  You can wire it with very little
difficulty, and moderate expense ( $150 by the time you stop experimenting
and finish the controller). You program the chip from your serial port. You
program it in PBASIC.   If you are a C or assembly language programmer, or
you're like me and just want to roll it yourself (this is why we mash all
grain, right?), then use a PIC (from Microchip) PIC16C84 or similar chip.
This is a little more expensive to get set up if you buy a programmer (the
device which loads your assembled code into the EEPROM), but you have far
greater control.  Both of these chips have ADC built in.  Both are extremely
well supported with a user community (very similar to brewing), free tools
(simulator, development environment), and development advice (applications
notes), and in the case of the Parallax Stamp, a tutorial in how to build a
PID controller (their Stamps In Class Industrial Controls experiments).

The microcontroller route is probably the least expensive, but most involved
in terms of time.  The industrial PID controller and equipment route is
probably easiest to program, but may cost you in excess of $500.  Other
approaches will be somewhere in between.

To recap, your trade-space corners are:
  - use a PID controller and other industrial controls and actuators, have
master control from an old PC over an RS-485 (or jury-rigged 232) bus (or
skip the PID controller, and do the PID in your own code)
  - use a A/D board, and rig up your own actuators (triacs or solid-state
relays) and sensors:  you probably need a 486 or Pentium for this.
  - use a PLC, and either use your own actuators and sensors, or buy them
  - use a microcontroller, and build your own system.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!


Dave Howell

Note:  there were NO plugs for the company I work for in this entire post!




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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:09:00 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Stainless in Seattle out of business?

Does anyone know if the Beeronline d/b/a "Stainless in Seattle" people
are still in business?  Their phone # was disconnected and the website
seemed abandoned.

If they are yet another casualty in the homebrew supply business, it's a
shame......'cause they really do have a cool name.

Don Lake



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:16:19 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Restarting Coopers sediment

Hi all

Told SWMBO I was going to try brewing a sparkling ale for summer, got asked
'wot's that', and so was forced, kicking and screaming, to buy a bottle of
Coopers Sparkling Ale for demonstration purposes :)

I've read about restarting yeast from the sediment in bottle conditioned
beers, and thought I'd give the Coopers ago.  I put it in the fridge, waited
for the sediment to settle, and carefully poured off all but the last inch
or so of beer (which I was forced to drink, alas).  I boiled up a cup of
water with a tablespoon of dextrose, cooled it to 26oC, and added it to the
bottle.  I shook it up, topped it off with a cork and airlock, and went to
bed.

Next day - nada.  I shook it up, and moved it to the lounge room where it
was a bit warmer.  Still nothing.  It's just sitting there, looking
decidedly unfrothy.

I can think of two possibilities:

 - after I went to bed, the yeast frothed up, ate everything, and went back
to sleep
 - the yeast are dead.

Is there an easy way to spot dead yeast?  The sediment looks cloudy, with
black flecks, almost like ashes, floating about in it.

Cheers
 ...Matt...


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:43:57 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: HBD costs

How much money are we talking about to keep HBD up and running?  I'd be more
than happy to contribute something via PayPal or some similar e-payment
system - beats the hell out of paying for a magazine subscription!

Cheers
 ...Matt...


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:16:27 +0200
From: "Weaver, Joseph Todd Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM"
Subject: Bugs In Malt

Consulted with an entomologist friend of mine.  Here is his answer.

Depends on what beetle is in there.  If it is a weevil infestation (they
have very long snouts) then it should be fine.  If there are fuzzy looking
larvae in there then you MUST throw it away.  The hairs on the beetle
(Dermestid beetle) larvae are bad for your digestive tract.  Dermestids are
your only big problem though.  The rest of the common pests are more of a
nuisance.  If the numbers are very high in the product it could affect the
taste.  The usual rule of thumb is under seven insects per pound of product
is ok.  Freezing is the best option and then you can just pick the insects
out or sift them if it is flour.  Good luck.

Long term control is to find all infested products and freeze or destroy
them.  Then if you continue to have problems you should get plastic
containers to put your grain in.

Todd Weaver 


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:16:16 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: The Baron

First of all, for all of you who don't want to read any non-brewing
related posts, start tapping your <PG-DN> key now.  Don't stop until
told to do so.

Michael Owings at Swampgas has been gracious enough to allow me some
server space to post my Burradoo pics for those of you who might be
interested in any evidence of the Baron's true existence.

http://www.swampgas.com/brewpics

I was lucky enough to get to the Southern Highlands to meet Phil, Jill
and Phoebe.  The photos at the URL are posted with Phil's permission.
The cat is Phil's own, and I can vouch for the fact that the tail is
attached naturally, without stitches, velcro or glue.  While I was
there, there was no entertainment which involved the cat.  (I, however,
have a squirrel problem and am willing to ship up to 25 at a time to any
of you who are willing to receive them.  With or without tails.)

The picture names cover the subject, but if anyone has any questions,
please post privately.

To keep this brewing related, the Rice Lager is everything that he
claims it to be.

For those of you still hitting the <PG-DN> key,

STOP

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:08:42 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject:  yeast, fruit, ph,bugs

G'day All

Well here in the remote North I watch with a certain degree of curiosity how
people are always willing to tie themselves into knots, over the most silly
little things. (I only do that in the bedroom, and thats to escape the
clutches of SWMBO) You wonder how the hell wars start, millions die, and
then you read the ol' HBD and its perfectly clear.  Lets see how open minded
we all are when the largest internet users find us and their culture swamps
the HBD.  Yes rice lager will take on a whole new meaning.  Ak well enough
deep stuff, on to some people

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:19:16 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
 .  Recently I have purchased a dozen glass petri dishes figuring
that my lame budget would fare better than with disposables.  But I have
never used glass ones before and a few questions arise:

1. How best to sterilize the media?  seperately or in the dish?
2. Should a wire rack be constructed to stack the dishes (with covers on) in
the pressure cooker to prevent breakage and raise the bottom ones above the
liquid level (if filled previously to sterlizing)?
3. What's the best way to clean them?  I currently run my used glass culture
tubes through the cooker to melt the agar, pour it out and then wash with
detergent followed by a chemical sterilzer before refilling and sterilizing
again.
_______________________________

Ok , 1. I believe in minumising the risk as much as possible, as we dont
have those fancy cabinets.  So I would steralize in the dish so that all I
have to do is push the lid  over and on - done.

2. This answers itself.  yes a rack should be made to keep it out of the
water. And if you design the rack so the plate lids are 3/4 on, so they can
easily be slid on.

3. I clean all my glassware with a soak in dilute castic NaOH overnight and
rinse and dry. Thats it.  It then get steralised in the Autoclave/pressure
cooker with the media in it.


From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Nov-Dec Zymurgy

We also have an important piece on the possible dangers of using
fruit in beer -
__________________________________________

Now here in North Queensland I have an abundance of tropical fruits, and I
do mean bloody heaps.  Even the flying foxes can't eat them all.  Now I have
used nearly every type in my lambics, And yes some are a definite no-no if
you are not careful.

Now I can tell you, overdo a mango lambic, and shit (and I do mean that
word) you can set your clock by it.  Three glasses, and two and a half hours
later, well even the gential grabbing frogs wont have a chance, you just
flood the bowl .........  ok yo get my drift.  Mind you, its a good way of
getting rid of freeloaders.

And a certain sopote has a drug in it that will put you to sleep quicker
than SWMBO whispering to you in bed, "Honey I feel like,,,,,,,,,,,  ohhhhhhh
the thought. NOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo.

Other fruits can be poisonous if used before they are ripe.  So do i have
any takers for my latest fruit lambic, or are you all waiting for my lychie
lambic.


From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Flour Weevils?

 Recently my
wife found little bugs all over the pantry.
______________________________

being an lad from a station, yep a common problem.  Yet again this is a case
where we have em, bigger and  tougher over here.  Freezing didn't always
kill the little blighters, unless it was for a long time.  Certainly slowed
them down thou.  Gasing works great, (gets rid of Elle out of the spent
grains), basically most gasses will do the job, for us craftbrewer its CO2
or N2.  But remember, if they are adults, they have already had rampant sex
in your grain and eggs remain.  Rarely do these eggs all hatch at once, so
repeated gasings are necessary.  make sure its before they get to adult
stage and do what adults do best (with a little practice)

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh, - this talk about something cheep to measure PH.  I have one of those
you-beaut ones that does everything.  But a thought occurred to me.  Those
soil test one, with the indicators and white powder. They would be OK.
certainly in the range, white powder to colour up, and accurate enough for
beginners. Can't see why they woudn't work.  They did in my younger days in
the field, and I was measuring dirt.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:08:12 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Question re: Chlorophenols

Has anyone experience with the effects of "chlorophenols"?  I 
as in that I am trying to trace down a flavor that some of the 
blokes who share my homebrews have discovered in their 
flavor.  Is it possible for traces of chlorox left from 
cleaning to create flavors in the finished product?  I know 
that G. Fix mentions this and I wonder if amyone has 
experienced it?

 ...Darrell

- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 03:54:53 -0700
From: "Kruska, Russ" <R.KRUSKA at CGIAR.ORG>
Subject: Tej

Mark mentions Tej that he's had in an Ethiopian 
restaurant. 

I have had Tej in Ethiopia many times.  It is 
honey based and what the Ethiopian's call 'hops' 
are actually the leaves of a special tree.  If 
you need the name of the tree I can find out 
from our Financial Controller here at work who 
is Ethiopian. 

Buna Tej is spiced with coffee beans, try it if 
you can... ;-) 

Russ


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:22:00 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: oak shavings

Chris asks-
i hear alot of talk about oak chips and shavings etc ... whats my best way to
go about this add some shavings to my furmenter
or throw some in to my boil ? thanks a million !!

Put the oak in your fermenter - definately NOT in in the boil as you would
extract way too many tannins. The beer would probably be undrinkable,
certainly very astringent.

Think about how oak was used - beer was stored in barrels, not boiled in oak
tuns. This is a much more complex issue than just extracting the tannins,
vanillans, etc from the oak. There is also slow oxidation, brett and other
microflora that can live in the barrels, etc. that contribute flavors to the
beer. Also, consider that if you were using an actual oak cask; the more times
you use it, the less the flavor contribution. That said, it doesn't take much
fresh oak to give the beer an oaky character, so start with less than you
think you may need - and/or for a shorter period of time.

I'm sure we've all had stouts, etc that have been finished in bourbon casks.
Very nice. Has anyone tried soaking oak shavings in bourbon (or a good rum
might be interesting) prior to using in beer?

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:24:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: HBD costs

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Matt echoes a question I've been getting a lot in private email...

> How much money are we talking about to keep HBD up and running?  


The HBD needs about $200 a month to maintain its connection, per current
analysis into balanced DSL costs. Details on sponsorship levels are
detailed on http://hbd.org/sponsorhbd.html or click the banner at the top
of http://hbd.org

I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to make a threat, but please
note that the clock is ticking on our current connection. O&E will
implement its plans whether or not the HBD has found its way off of their
network. Before making a commitment to a DSL line, I require the funding
for it be in place because I cannot afford to foot the bill myself.

Thanks!

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:46:30 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: More on problems with British malts/Weissheimer Pils



Hello all,

    Just to add some detail to my diatribe on British malts:
I'm not complaining about chill haze (or at least, not just
that.)  I've been running into problems for three years now
with bags of British malt that are seriously flawed.  The first
example, in early 1998, was a batch of Marris Otter that was
extremely overmodified:  the malt was mealy to the point of
nearly milling itself.  In brewing, this results in about 20%
lower extract than normal, at least using my techniques, although
the beer wasn't overly hazy.  Several other HBDers reported similar
problems with the same lot number.  In 1999 and this summer, I've 
run into bags that weren't so obviously overmodified, but exhibited
similarly lowered extract (about 10-15% lower than expected) and
persistent chill haze (at 50F, for those who worry about my cellaring
habits.)  

     My records on malt purchases are not nearly as careful as my
brewing records, but it looks as if about one out of every three
bags of British malt has been problematic.  During that same time,
I've had no difficulties at all with American or German malts, bought
in quantities at least as large.  For me, this is enough evidence to
switch to American pale ale or ESB malts.

     While thinking about malts:  thanks very much to Nate "Del"
Lansing for the Weissheimer Pils analysis.  It certainly looks
like they've lowered their modification considerably over the last
few years.  Given the protein level (11%) and Kolbach index (37.6),
I'm inclined to add a short ``protein rest" of 15 minutes at 133F
to my mashing regime.  Any suggestions are welcomed.

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH
			(Basement brewery temporarily dismantled
			to move to a new house.  Thank God for
			stockpiles.)


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:49:09 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Copper in a brew system

I use copper pipe in "the perfesser".  There are still breweries out
there that have mashtuns and fermenters made entirely out of copper.  I
know of one brewerie that has commissioed a copper section for some of
their piping in order to get totally away from stainless as they feel
that there is a need for copper ions in the brew.

In short - not to worry.

Hope this helps.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:48:43 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Gravity Contribution of Sugars

I hope readers will be interested in the results of an experiment I
performed based on a  question a few weeks back concerning the gravity
contribution of unconverted starch. Our (by whom I mean brewers) scheme
of measuring wort specific gravity and calculating from it the pounds of
"extract" per gallon of wort are all based upon work done with sucrose
by various investigators culminating in the work of the
Normal-Eikungskomission on which the ASBC tables are based. Thus if one
puts a pound of pure sucrose into a container and adds water to make 10
pounds of solution he would have a 10% by weight sucrose in water
solution and a Plato calibrated hydrometer would be expected to read
exactly 10 degrees and one calibrated in specific gravity units
(20C/20C) would be expected to read 1.04003. With respect to a recent
posting on a questionable hydrometer, this is a reasonably simple way to
calibrate it. All you need is a scale and some table sugar. Put a beaker
or other suitable containeer on the scale and tare it. Put an ounce (or
20 - 30 grams) of table sugar into the beaker and record the weight. Now
add water until the scale reads 10 ounces or 10 times the number of
grams of sugar. Stir to dissolve the sugar and fill into the hydrometer
jar. A properly calibrated hydrometer will read 1.0400 or 10P. The other
hydrometer will not read 0 in distilled water but it will probably have
and indication (a tic labeled 'W' for example) as to where it should
read in water.

While our worts do contain some sucrose they also contain maltose,
fructose, glucose, other disachharides, oligosaccharides, dextrines and
some (but we hope very little) unconverted starch. What would the
hydrometer read if placed in a 10% w/w solution of one of these sugars?
If the answer is 10 Plato or close to it the hydrometer is vindicated as
an instrument which tells us how much of that sugar is in the wort. If
this is the case for an assortment of sugars (i.e. they all read close
to 10P for a 10% solution) then we can conclude that the hydrometer is
reasonably accurate for measuring sugar content of wort independent of
the particular spectrum of sugars found in a particular wort. My
experiment suggests that this is the case.

To get  numbers I made up solutions of sucrose, fructose, glucose,
maltose, dextrine and starch as above i.e. by weighing out the sugars
into a tared container and adding water until the total weight indicated
that the solution was nominally 10% w/w (in most cases). I then measured
the specific gravity (as quickly as possible - water evaporates rapidly
when you don't want it to) which was then converted to degrees Plato.
The Plato number is compared directly to the percent solids by weight.

                                      Calculated  Measured
Sugar        Assay *           w/w%     Plato      Error

Sucrose      Min 99.9%   9.9974     9.99     -0.074%
Glucose      N/A            10.0032     9.91     -0.93%
Fructose     Min 98%     10.0028  10.08    +0.77%
Maltose      Min 92%       9.4911    9.53     +0.41%
Dextrin       N/A               9.9990    9.94      -0.59%
Starch        ACS              1.851      1.56    -15.72%

* Assay as reported on the label by the manufacturer. N/A = no assay
information supplied.

The sugars differ somewhat in purity and water of hydration. The sucrose
is "Ultra Pure" grade. The availability of ultra pure, water free (and
not very hygroscopic) sucrose may well be the reason that this sugar was
chosen to be the standard.  The sucrose Plato measurement was,
unsurprisingly, closest to the % by weight of the sucrose in the
solution. The errors in the last column are percentages of degrees
Plato.

It is interesting that the two components of sucrose, i.e. fructose and
glucose, show errors of about the same magnitude though they are
opposite in sign. They would, thus, tend to cancel as we might expect
but it is also possible that these values relate to a combination of
differences in purity and measurement technique.

The maltose used contained 1 molecule of water of  hydration. The weight
of the maltose was scaled by the ratio of the formula weight of the
sugar minus this water to the formula weight of the sugar so that the
calculated w/w is that of maltose alone.  The maltose also is known to
contain as much as 3% glucose. The dextrine also contains some water of
hydration but the exact proportion was not specified on the label. Thus
the dextrine weight was not adjusted.

As the monosacharides, disaccharides and dextrines all resulted in
errors of 1% or less (i.e. 0.1 Plato degree in a 10P wort) I conclude
that the accuracy with which a hydrometer reading tells us wort sugar
content is at about this level. Thus, for example, if a brewer uses a
calibrated hydrometer and reads a wort at 1.048 it's sugar content is
11.912 +/- .12  grams per 100 mL of wort. As the wort weighs
0.999203*1.048 (at 20C) or 1.0472 grams/mL the sugar content is
11.912/1.0472 = 11.375 +/- 0.11 grams per 100 cc or 113.75 +/- 1.3 grams
per liter - in English units 0.946 +/- 0.1 pound per gallon.



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:24:05 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: The 3-ring circus project

Dan Listermann wrote of weevils:
>Mary Ann Gruber of Briess Malting assured me that dead weevils do not cause
>hazes.  I am unsure how serious she was when she told me this.....

But how do they affect the head retention?   ;-) yech!

Jerry "Beaver" Pelt asked the mothly question:
>By the way, what is a SWMBO?

And Frank Tutzauer has another variation on the theme:
>because SWMBO is also SWMBBF (She Who Must Be Brewed For)

I think we can safely say that SWMB_ is the She Who Must Be - something.
Where the something is dependent upon upon the particular "she" in question
+ her mood.  Thusly, we have  O - Obeyed, BF - Brewed For, T - Tolerated, S
 - Supplicated, A - Avoided... you get my drift.  The combinations are
ability to act like a perpetual child, the ladies just call us HWMBE - He
Who Must Be Entertained ;-)

Now for some seriousness:

I am in the process of designing a 3-tier system with converted cornies,
copper pipe, pumps - the whole 3-ring circus.  Since I'm looking to automate
most of it for temperature stepping and maintenance,  I'll be using heating
elements in the mash tun (RIMS) and boiler.  Much easier to control than
gas.  But for the quick ramp time I want to use LP gas.  I figure that cajun
cookers can bring my HLT to temp and my wort to a boil pretty quickly.  Then
I can run a program on the mash tun or the kettle to maintain temp or step
up temp with an electric heating element.  This will then allow me to leave
it unattended for a little while.  Now that you know what I wanna do, based
on a 10 gallon batch (max) here's my questions:

1. Will boiling wort have any adverse effect upon an electric hot water tank
heating element?
2. Do 220V heating elements have enough thermal output to bring wort from
sparge temp to boil within a reasonable amount of time?
3. How about 110V?  I know the wattage is about 1/2 and therefore the heat
is cut proportionally.
4. I've seen some RIMS systems use black pipe as the RIMS chamber.  What is
the composition of black pipe & it's effect upon wort?
5. Given enough electrical power, is propane supplement even needed?
6. Does a 180,000 BTU cajun cooker throw enough heat at a 10 gal batch to
bring it to boil quickly?  (this may be a dumb question)


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:32:48 -0500
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: CO2 purging procedure

I've bought my kegging equipment and now I need some help.  People talk
about "purging" the cornelius keg with CO2 prior to transferring the beer
from the primary.  I know you blast the keg with CO2, but what is the
process and for how long? 1 second, 10 secs, 1 minute?  Is the lid open? on
and closed? on and loose? Output open?

How do you transfer the beer into the keg?  Racking cane and gravity?  Is
there a way to transfer the beer under gas pressure?

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:42:38 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Cincinnati

Nathan Kanous ( nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu) asks about things to drink in
Mason,OH.  If you don't get a car, bring some reading material.  

Should you find transport, check out Watson Brothers Pub in Blue Ash first,
then continue down 71 to - ta da! Listermann brewery supply west of exit 5
at 1621 Dana.  When you have had you fill of us, get back on 71 and go down
town to the Barrelhouse on 12th between Vine and Walnut.  The director of
the Hofbrauhaus was in town a few years ago and wanted to know who made
their hefeweitzen.  

 If you are still in the mood, check out Rock Bottom on Fountain Square at
5th again between Vine and Walnut.  Very clean if uninspired.

Still standing?  Well choose German, Irish or Scottish.  Nickelson's
Scottish pub is near 6th and Walnut.  Hand pulled ales.....

Irish, check out Jack Quins at 4th and Court across the river in Covington.
 Guinness, Murphy's and Beamish plus a lot of others.

German?  Not so easy to find, but well worth a visit, the home of the
Bloatarian Brewing League is Mecklenburg Gardens at Highland and University
up by the University of Cincinnati.  It is a 1865 German bier garten with
the grape arbors and everything.  They have 16 taps none of which has ever
passed anything made by A-B, Coors or Miller.   Last spring they had four
doublebocks on tap...........very dangerous.

Don't forget to check out Listermann's........open 10 to 6 Mon - Sat. 
(513) 731-1130.

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com    Check out our new e-tail site at
listermann.com.


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:53:40 -0500
From: "Curt Abert" <abert at jokulhlaup.isgs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: home roasting / aussies and humor...

Hi all,

Many thanks to Graham Sanders for his recent postings about
home roasting!  Although I'm merkin and have access to many
kinds of specialty grains, I've often taken the path of home roasting
as I feel that freshly roasted malt has much more robust flavor than
purchased.  I've never quite approached it like Graham, but have
saved his posts for future reference.  Thanks again!!

Just to add my $.02, I kind of like the current mix of the HBD.  There
is still plenty of information presented by many posters, now it is
just sprinkled with a bit of lively banter.   If you don't like it,
don't read it.  My only problem now is that I have to be careful not
to snort coffee on my keyboard....

I'm hoping that a couple of our friends from across the big pond could
answer a question for me.  During the Sydney Games opening ceremony,
many things Aussie were highlighted:  the ocean, the reef, Aboriginee
culture, etc.  I especially liked the bit about Ned Kelly (now the chain
of steakhouses makes sense).  In the american broadcast, Ned was
played up to be a hero, very much like our own Jesse James.
However, after it was over, I was sorely disappointed to see that
another famous Aussie was left out.   What about Yahoo Serious????

Oh yeah, I would encourage everyone to brew a CAP soon.  Something
has to be done with all of the corn we grow, and it might as well be
in a home(craft)brew

Cheers,

Curt Abert
Champaign, IL





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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:18:51 -0500
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: New Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest

Has anyone had any experience with this new yeast?  I'd like to pitch it on
a pilsener, but I'm a bit gun shy after a recent bad experience with another
new Wyeast product, 3724 Saison.  

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 09:38:17 -0500
From: Marc Donnelly <marc at deptstores.dhc.com>
Subject: RE: copper Pipes in my HERMS

>From what I hear, you should be ok.  If you hear anything else email me.

The reason why I think it's ok (as long as you use lead free solder) is 
many brew kettles are copper and home plumbing is copper (both hot and 
cold) with no problems.

check out copper.org


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Copper Pipes in my HERMS -- question

Greetings all!  

In response to the question concerning the use of copper tubing in the 
home brewery;  I have been using a converted keg boiler with an integrated
20'x1/2" cooling coil for the past couple of years with no ill effect.  I
clean my copper with a weak solution of white vinegar and salt followed by 
a generous rinse with very hot water.  I would use the same approach to
clean the interior of a HERMS coil (recirculate the vinegar solution for a
while followed by the hot water).  The only thing to be cautious of is
the green oxidation that sometimes forms on copper but the previous 
mentioned cleaning process takes care of that (I sometime us green a
"scrubby" pad if there is a stuborn stain to be removed).

On another note, Chris asked in #3433 about the use of oak chips in brewing.
I have experimented with them on several batches and have concluded that 
adding about 1-2 oz. of coarse oak chips (the kind sold by home brew or 
home wine making shops) to the secondary for 5-7 days will impart a slight
woody flavor to your brew.  I would suggest using them with an English style
ale with a good malt profile. Their use in a "hoppy" brew I found to be 
less than desireable.  While I think that the effect is interesting I don't 
think that I will be repeating the experiment any time soon.  Just a cautionary
note, DO NOT USE American white or red oak, the flavor profile is way too 
strong.  The chips I used were European Oak (according to the packaging).
Another caution, be careful when using wood with food stuffs in general, many
exotic and aromatic woods contain compounds that are toxic.  So do your 
research carefully!

This last topic brings to mind a recent tour I went on at AB's  Ft. Collins,
Colorado brewery.  In particular the disscussion of the "beechwood aging"
used by AB.  According to the tour guide (who was actually quite well 
informed, and a home brewer himself) the beechwood chips are placed in a large
stainless steel cylinder with a million holes in it and then inserted into
one of the secondary fermentation chambers (kind of like a large tea ball!).
The purpose was stated to be that the wood chips create a place for the yeast
cells to attach with out their simply falling into a compressed mass at the
bottom of the tank.  By keeping the yeast's effect surface area maximized the
fermentation completes providing a natural level of carbonation to the product.
They use beechwood (grown on plantations in the south, I believe he said 
Alabama) because it imparts virtually no flavor to the finished beer.  

The chip topedos are removed and cleaned and the wood chips are reused 2 or
3 more times then they are given to the local city where they are ground up
and used as mulch on community gardens and parkways.  The "chips" are strips
of beechwood a couple of inches wide, up to 1/2" thick and anywhere form 3" 
to a couple of feet in length. They are curled and when put in the torpedo 
create a labrynth through which the beer may flow. 

This presentation got me to thinking (always risky!) about possible application
of the technique to the home brewery.  I know that scale would be the biggest
challenge but what about putting a passive medium in the bottom of the 
secondary for a pilsner to help keep the yeast from settling into a compacted
yeast cake, like maybe some glass marbles?  Any thoughts or ideas?  Has anyone
else considered this? Or should I just go have a home brew?

All in all an interesting idea.  Say what you will about the big boys but I
really enjoyed my afternoon at the Ft. Collins AB brewery.  One thing really
hits you and that is the scale of it all.  I also toured the New Belgium and
Odells breweries in Ft. Collins, both were great hosts and makers of fantastic
beer! 




Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) 
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:56:30 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Counterflow Wort Chiller

Hi All,
Looking for some technical information on a counterflow wort chiller.  I've 
made a counterphil chiller.  Works great, except it's slow.  I've seen some 
info on the web regarding the use of 1/2" OD copper tubing inside a 5/8" ID 
garden hose.  I think I've got 1/2" ID copper tubing at home that I could 
use.  Does anyone have any experience with this size copper tubing in a CF 
wort chiller?  Any help would be appreciated.
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:41:54 -0600
From: adam larsen <euphonic at flash.net>
Subject: Sheaff Stout & 2 Belgain Ales

Hello all,

    I was wondering if any of the Australians in the readership could
tell me a bit about Sheaf Stout.  It used to be a very fine brew back
about 10 ago when it was made by the Union Brewery but when i tried it
recently the taste was quite unremarkable.  Apparently, Union Brewery
was bought out by some larger firm which would explain it.  In any case,
i was wondering if any one had decent "clone" recipe for this once fine
ale.
    In terms of clones of a rather different sort i was hoping that
someone in the readership in general could tell me a bit about how to go
about making Abbaye De Floreffe Blond style ale and something fairly
close to a La Trappe Quadruple.



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