---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  fridge won't start (fridgeguy)
  rH/pH/Dissolving starch ("A. J.")
  RE: Beechwood chips and Hefeweizen ("Dennis Lewis")
  1st wort hopping & mash hopping (Jay Pfaffman)
  White Labs Yeast (Althelion)
  Controlling a Gas Heater ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Brewery Automation & Open Kettles ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Home made crystal malt (Dave Burley)
  maltiness (Randy Ricchi)
  wort recovery (Randy Ricchi)
  Grain Extract Virgin (Beaverplt)
  Wood Alcohol (Bill_Rehm)
  Culturing yeast from beer sediment (Brian Myers)
  Boddingtons Pub Ale ("G. M. Remake")
  Re: Plastic carboys ("Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard")
  mead fermentation ("Atticus & Kitty")
  Weak yeast yeild weak offspring? (Charley Burns)
  DMS/persistent infection (Harlan Bauer)
  Re: HBD Sponsorship (Christopher Farley)
  Goose Island ("pksmith_morin")
  HBD doing DSL ("Alan McKay")
  infection troubleshooting ("Louis K. Bonham")
  boiling vanill beans (J Daoust)
  amber ale (Clark)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:00:18 -0400
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: fridge won't start

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#3435, Scott Jose asked for help with his fridge that initially
starts when plugged in, but then immediately quits.

 The compressors used in domestic fridges have two motor windings.
Both are used during compressor start-up, then the start winding is
removed from the circuit after the compressor comes up to speed.

 A small relay is used to engage the start winding when needed. The
compressor start relay can be one of several types, but the most
common is known as a "current relay" and will be plugged right onto
the compressor's wiring terminals. I suspect the contacts are dirty or
worn in this relay and that it is not propery engaging the start
winding in the compressor motor.

 There is also a thermal/current overload device wired in series with
the compressor motor. If the compressor draws excessive current, or if
the overload gets weak, it may "snap" open for a minute or two. This
can be tested by immediately plugging the fridge back in after the
comressor quits. If nothing happens for a minute or so, a click is
heard, and the compressor again tries to start, the overload has
likely opened.

 If this happens it would be wise to unplug the fridge and remove the
terminal cover and relay from the compressor. There will be three
terminals on the compressor. These are usually labeled C (common), S
(start), and R (run). Using a multimeter set on its lowest resistance
range, measure the resistance between the C and R terminals and the C
and S terminals. Then set the meter to its highest resistance range
and measure the resistance between each of the three terminals and
ground. 

 If the compressor motor is good, there will be a comparatively high
resistance between the C and (usually) R terminals, and a
comparatively low resistance between the C and (usually) S terminals.
The reason I hedged a bit here is because the actual resistance values
and their relationship vary a great deal by compressor make and model.
You should measure infinity between each of the compressor terminals
and ground.

 If the resisances aren't close to what I described above, please post
your findings and I'll try to interpret them. It is possible that the
motor windings are damaged.


 If the resistances look ok then I'd suggest replacing the relay and
overload. They are both common repair items and can be obtained from
most appliance parts retailers. Bring the old ones along for
reference.

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - Fridgeguy in Kalamazoo
fridgeuy at voyager.net




- --
Is your email secure? http://www.pop3now.com
(c) 1998-2000 secureFront Technologies, Inc. All rights reserved.



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:16:27 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: rH/pH/Dissolving starch

For Edward:  rH is an archaic (50 year old) way of expressing the redox
state of a system. It is familiar to brewers because DeClerk and other
authors of his time use this term. As the name implies there are some
similarites with pH. Just as the pH is related to the log of the
activity (sort of an ionic pressure - for all practical purposes the
concentration of) hydrogen ions, rH can be defined in terms of the log
of  the pressure of hydrogen gas in a sense electrode required to
explain the potential difference observed between it and a reference
electrode pressurized to 1 atmosphere with hydrogen. While hydrogen is
not used in either sense or reference electrodes today (except in
special laboratory applications) one can easilly calculate the rH from
conventional ORP (Oxidation Reduction Potential) measurements made with
platinum combination electrodes if one wishes to compare the rH of his
beer to values found by DeClerk.

The redox state of a beer is defined in terms of electical potential
measured between an inert (platinum) and reference (Ag/AgCl or similar)
electrode. This voltage depends on the pH and the the log of the ratio
of the concentration of oxidized substances to reduced substances in the
beer. In converting to rH the pH factor is backed out  and this is one
of the advantages of rH - it is a measure of redox state and not the pH
at which it is measured.

Obviously the higher the oxidation state the faster the beer will stale
and so keeping it in a reduced state is very desireable. If you stick an
ORP probe in beer and watch the meter you will see the ORP climb slowly
as oxygen from the air gets into the beer. Drop in  a vitamin C tablet
or a campden tablet and you will see the ORP plummet. I've often
wondered why, in all the discussions of staling, we don't see more
reference to the relationship of rH/ORP to beer staling. The ASBC
procedures don't even have an ORP test though I think the "indicator
time test" is still done for wort in Eurpope.  Measuring ORP is a bitch
because the sample must be protected from air during collection,
storage, transport and analysis. Perhaps that's the reason.

The remark about the the pH dyes was based on the fact that some of them
really indicate ORP and work because ORP depends on pH. Obviously, such
a dye wouldn't be a very good pH indicator in a solution which contained
a strong oxidizer or reducing agent.

I've seen sources say that pH stands for "pundus hydrogenii" which
translates as the "weight of hydrogen". In others the reader is  told
that the p stands for "potenz" which means power in the sense that
concentration of hydrogen ion equals 10 raised to the power of minus the
pH. Both refer to S.P.L. Sorrenson's original paper which, as I have
never seen it, I cannot comment on.

Can't really answer the question about the maly root. Wouldn't know one
if I tripped over it. Speaking generally, tannins are very very weak
acids and shouldn't shift the pH.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

For Dave B.: yes, getting the starch to dissolve did require heat and
yes, the resultant solution was pretty thick and yes, I think that
doesn't matter in determination of specific gravity unless you are using
an oscillating U tube meter (in which case you have to compensate for
it) but I don't think most home brewers do that. Remember that
"pycnometer" literally means a meter for thick things i.e. things you
couldn't float a hydrometer in.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:06:44 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at lewisdevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: Beechwood chips and Hefeweizen


> In the lager facility they were displayed in the tea strainer thingy... in
> the following video presentation of the brewing process, a brewery worker
> was shown raking the chips in the bottom of one of those gigantic tanks.

They use the torpedo-shaped "tea strainer" to process the chips. It keeps
them together during caustic cleaning and sanitizing with very hot water.
Then they transport the chips into the tank using that container. It fits
thru the manway.

> beer... however, I can't believe I was served their specialty
> Hefeweizen out of a BOTTLE!

I am a major weissbier aficionado and this is the proper and best way to
serve hefeweizen. In a Bavarian beergarden, you will always be served a hefe
out of the bottle. You may see weissbiers on tap in a bar, but the vast
majority of weissbier is bottled. Bottling allows for a couple of things
that can't be done in a keg: (1) The beer is much more carbonated (like 3.5
volumes) than regular beer. That makes for difficult and foamy dispensing
from a keg. It's foamy enough out of the bottle. (2) The brewer can make
sure that each bottle is dosed with the proper amount of yeast. Keg-dispense
requires special mechanical agitators that are problematic. (side note: I
got a tour of the Paulaner brewery last year and was told that they are
using a special process that keeps the yeast in suspension in their
weissbiers. Details were extremely and intentionally sketchy.)

Dennis

**A fine is a tax for doing wrong.**
**A tax is a fine for doing well. **




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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:05:42 -0500
From: Jay Pfaffman <pfaffman at relaxpc.com>
Subject: 1st wort hopping & mash hopping

OK, so what's the deal with 1st wort hopping and mash hopping?  I've
been on the list only for a week or two (to the detriment of getting
work done on this Ph.D. nonsense that I started 5+ years ago) & I've
seen a little about mash hopping (e.g. "Real Brewers Mash Hop").  I
have since found a few sentences in a book about 1st wort hopping,
but it still doesn't make much sense.  The author of the book really
didn't get it either.

I've recently become a all-grain brewer and have more recently
borrowed a 80qt kettle, so I'm working on getting a bigger mash/lauter
tun so that I can make a 10 gallon batch.  Also exciting is that for
the first time ever I'm brewing faster than I can drink, but that's
only because I don't have anything that's carbonated yet. 

Finally I can tell this story to a group who'll truly appreciate it.
My domain name is now relaxpc.com, but just over 6 years ago, I
registered relax.com for our computer consulting business.  I'd been
reading Papazian, and "Relax" seemed to be as useful in working with
computers as in home brewing.  (My business cards at the time said
"juggler, home brewer, guitarist, computer consultant"--I was really
only a computer consultant, but it was Vermont where the motto is
"Moonlight in Vermont, or starve."  I digress.)  Anyway though we
didn't get the name with the intent to sell it, someone finally made
an unsolicited offer for relax.com which we couldn't refuse, and I was
forced to give up my "lifetime" email address & URL.  We did make a
tidy profit, though not by west-coast standards.  The contract put
some restrictions on our use of the word relax, so now I must say

RelaxPC.  Don't worry.  Have a homebrew.

- -- 
Jay Pfaffman                           pfaffman at relaxpc.com
+1-615-343-1720 (office)               +1-615-460-9299 (home) 
http://relax.ltc.vanderbilt.edu/~pfaffman/


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:19:57 EDT
From: Althelion at aol.com
Subject: White Labs Yeast

Hey,

I've now used White Labs' yeasts in about ten batches. I'd like to note the 
following observations: 1) White Labs yeast, doesn't matter what type - lager 
or ale, function very well. Most of my ales made with a one quart starter 
begin fermentation in six hours. Lagers take a little longer to start, but 
still begin quite quickly. 2) I get good attentuation with these yeasts. 
(Note: The last dunkel I made using 75% munich malt only got down to 1019. 
Previous threads discussed munich malt and attenuation. I'll probably only 
use that high a grist percentage of munich in bocks in the future). 3) I 
prefer the taste of Wyeast, style to style, over White Labs. The only 
exception may be the White Labs East Coast Ale yeast which compares 
favorably. I'm wondering if anybody else has made similiar observations? Have 
I been tastebud-washed from using Wyeasts for so many years? I'm bottling a 
northern brown ale tomorrow night made with the White Labs Edinburgh. I hope 
to taste a second exception.

Side Note: I personally enjoy the ramblings from down under. Most Aussie 
influence I usually get is eatin' at The Outback and listenin' to Midnight 
Oil. However, sometimes the phoenetic spellings are hard to decipher. 
Whenever I encounter this problem though, I can usually encode the verse with 
help of a dram or two of a fine single malt. 

Later


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:35:10 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Controlling a Gas Heater

An alternative to a sparker is a glow plug.  These are typically used in
the oven section of a gas range.  I have no idea what the parts would cost
new but if you can salvage them from an old range, it should be simple.

In a typical gas range, order to ensure that the gas isn't turned on unless
the glow plug is glowing hot, the glow plug is wired is series with a
special gas valve.   The gas valve opening function is controlled by a
bimetallic strip.  When the operator turns on the switch, the glow plug
(which is a very fragile ceramic so handle it gently) resistance is quite
high, high enough that the bimetallic strip doesn't heat up and keeps the
gas off.  As the glow plug heats up to a roaring glow, it's resistance 
decreases and the bimetallic strip heats up and bends, thus opening the
valve. The glow plug then ignites the gas. 

This system is considered safe since, if the glow plug isn't hot, gas can't
flow. 

All you would need is a 110V relay to close the circuit like the operator
does.

While you are salvaging, consider grabbing the oven temperature control
also.  It should have a range from 170F to 450F.  It may not be accurate
enough for this application but who knows.  Also consider that the bulb
which measures the temperature would have to be placed in the boiling wort.
 I don't know how long it would last.  Boiling wort is a nasty environment.

Just some ideas I had.  Never tried it myself although I did repair the
bimetallic strip in my oven once.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:30:49 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Brewery Automation & Open Kettles

Todd was helping Mike with brewery automation and mash control:

> Or maybe there is a electronically
>inclined person lurking that could come up with an electric 'eye' that
>would verify that the flame is lit and send a signal of 0 or 5VDC to be
>read by the parallel port? That's something to work on later.

A photoresistor or phototransistor (IR) would work by sensing the light
emitted from the flame.  Both would have to be shielded from ambient light,
however.  The photoresistor would have to provide input to a comparator so
that when the voltage through the photoresistor exceeds the level
predetermined by the other input, the output would go high.  Same with the
phototransistor, plus you can fiddle with the bias on the transistor to
adjust sensitivity.  Your other option is to use a thermocouple just like
you have in a gas furnace.  This senses the heat and again, you'd have to do
a voltage comparison.  You don't really need an A/D converter for a go/no-go
situation like this.  From troubleshooting my gas furnace one day, I found
that it had a photosensor monitoring the manifold and a  thermocouple
monitoring the pilot.  If you can make the photosensor work, go that route
as it is an instant indicator and the thermocouple has a lag time since it
needs to heat up.  You may find heat resistant photosensors for furnaces in
HVAC supply catalogs which might do the trick. You'll still need a watchdog
in your code, but it should be only a few seconds.  E-mail me if you'd like
example schematics for the above-mentioned circuits.

====
Brian Lundeen suffered temporary befuddlement by the idea of a boiling
fountain:

>>The wort is then passed
>> back through the MIDDLE of the tank (below the wort level)
>> and shot through a "boiling fountain" to a point above the wort level
where it
>> is dispersed by an adjustable spreader and allowed to fall onto the
>> surface of the wort.  All kinds of agitation and splashing going on here!

>But... but... but... won't that lead to...

I know...  I dribbled and shook a bit when I first saw it, but then the
image of Dave Burley parading around this device with a big sign on a stick
with the words  "steam blanket" appeared before my eyes.  I then came to
know and was filled with the spirit (of brewing).  And I said Hallelujah!!
;-)

Now Dave Lamotte gets back to me with a quote from Kunze regarding covered
kettles:

>While I am very open about my boiling Kunze goes into considerable
>detail on the design of such industrial kettles and observes that the
>discharge vent always has an opening 1/6th the diameter of the kettle. 
>If my maths are correct this would give an area of only 3% of the kettle
>surface area (1/6 is 17%).  This is a fairly tightly fitting lid.

Pun intended, huh?  I guess if you couple this covered kettle with the
resulting steam blanket, I can now understand why a boiling fountain would
not introduce O2.  Logic would also dictate that the fountain would achieve
the same, if not better, mechanical forces in play than as with a very
vigorous boil but at a reduced thermal load.  Much of what I've come across
regarding the boil seems to stress the physical mixing, shearing, etc..
forces of the vigorous boil.  I'm sure this can be overdone as well.  As for
Fix's  quote regarding balance in boiling, this seems to fit.  One reason
for boiling is to drive off volatiles by the combination of heat and
exposing more of the wort to the liquid surface, but don't over do it.  I
tend to believe that using a boiling column can maximize volatile removal
without the need to throw so much heat into it.  It would be interesting to
attempt this on a homebrewer's scale and taste the results.

> The kettle exhaust is also fitted with a flap which enables it to be
>completely sealed during heating in order to conserve energy.  Why this
>is so? ... Sounds like a case of industrial cost savings to me.

I'd assume so.  Unfortunately, many of the really technical texts at some
point become obsessed with reclaiming/conserving resources and reducing
waste.  Hey, they're trying to run a business, right?

====
Lastly, I would like to thank the numerous people who replied to me
privately regarding my latest RIMS questions.  There is so much diversity in
the RIMS & HERMS design, making a choice as to what would work best for me
is the hardest part!

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
PGP Fingerprint:
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD









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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:33:10 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Home made crystal malt

Brewsters:

Hans Aikema did some experiments in which he proved that only about 20% of
the malt will be extracted without crushing.  Seems right as proper milling
is a critical requirement for good extraction efficiency and malt has about
15-20% extractables as I recall. Part of the reasaon for the crush is to
expose the starch to the enzymes, but the main reason is to wet out the
interior of the malt so the reactions can proceed.  If the interior were
wet ( see below) then crushing would not be necessary to get a substantial
reaction in the uncrushed grain and a high extraction rate potential.
However the large grain size of the uncrushed barley would mean the rate of
extraction woud be extremely slow. As Hans also notes uncrushed grain does
not impede the flow of the sparge water. 

SO crushing is important for 1)exposing the interior of the grain to water
to provide reagents for the saccharification 2) provide access for the
enzymes in solution  3) provide a short pathway for the sugar to move out
of the grain into the sparge water 4) slow down the rate of flow of the
sparge water through the bed so that the efficiency of extraction is high.

Hans also concludes that he can't make crystal malt from pilsner based on
his experiments. And I say you can, but you must first soak the malt
overnight or longer in cold ( refrigerator)  water, so the hydrolysis and
enzyme solubilization can take place and the saccharification be completed
in the oven.

To do this, the soaked malt is drained and placed about 1" deep on a baking
sheet and covered with aluminum foil and the temperature raised to 155F (
measure the grainbed T with a thermometer poked through the foil) where it
is held for 30 minutes after it reaches 155F while saccharificaton takes
place, the foil is removed and then the temperature is raised to around
350F ( I believe) to caramelize these sugars. Do it for a time period ( 30
minutes to 11/2 hours)  to get the desired color. Always take a number of
grains, cool and crush them and extract in boiling water to estimate the
color. I often take a portion of the grains at various time periods during
this final caramelization for various specialty blending purposes.

This is from memory, so for the exact details check out the HBD archives
where I have detailed my methods of preparing various specialty malts from
pilsner malts. When I started brewing, these specialty malts were not
available in the US and I had to develop my own methods by reading M&BS and
other professional book and  journals.

If memory serves, CharliePs NCJOHB has an Appendix on this also. I didn't
read the details in Graham Sanders' pages and pages of material, but if he
didn't give his pilsner malt an overnight soak he won't really have a
crystal malt. A dry roast such as you did, Hans, will produce various
grades of a "biscuit" type of malt, which  as Graham says is excellent
immediately after you toast it.
- ---------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley
 


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:54:44 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: maltiness

A lot has been said about using Munich malt to get a nice maltiness in
beers made with an infusion mash. Another thing to consider is the BRAND
of munich malt. A few years ago I made a lager with 100% munich ( I
didn't keep track of brands, but I'm pretty sure it was Durst) malt, and
it did have that german malt character.

This past winter I made an all munich malt lager using Weisheimer munich
malt, and didn't get the same kind of maltiness. I got a toastiness from
this munich malt.  This is not very scientific, since I did use
different yeasts in the two beers.

However, I also made an all Vienna malt lager this year, 11 gallon
batch, and split the batch in two. I pitched Brewteks E. European lager
yeast in one, and another Brewtek yeast in the other (American pre-pro
type, I forget the name and I'm at work right now).  The Beer brewed
with the E. European lager yeast had the finest malt character I have
ever found in any homebrewed beer. Authentic, soft, German maltiness.
This beer turned out to be a beautiful Vienna style lager.
The other yeast was clean but didn't accentuate the malt character.
I brewed other all Pilsner malt beers using the E. European yeast, and
theye were clean, but didn't have the maltiness of the vienna malt beer.

So, you have to consider that not only the malt type, but brand, and
also yeast can make a difference in the maltiness you get in the final
product.



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:00:35 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: wort recovery

A little wort recovery technique I've been using lately:
After I immersion chill, I cover and let the break material settle for
30-45 minutes. Then I siphon off into my fermenter. I stop syphoning
when the racking cane starts to pick up break material.
I pour this remainder into sanitized 1/2 gallon mason jars, cover with
foil, and put into the freezer for an hour or so. In that time, the trub
settles to the bottom half of the jar and you can pour the clear top
half off into your fermenter. Or you could leave it sit in a
refridgerator for awhile until you need some wort for yeast starters. If
it's been sitting awhile, just pour the clear top portion into a sauce
pan and re-boil for 10 minutes, cool, and use. I haven't bought dry
extract for yeast starters for a long time now since I started using
this method.





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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grain Extract Virgin

Well, summer's over and this weekend's weather is
supposed to be crappy. Sounds like a great opportunity
to make a fresh batch. I was all set to do my first
all grain until I saw the recipe for "Ucleduckfay
Outmeal Stout" in the much maligned Complete Joy of
Homebrewing. Anything with that name has to be tried.
It's a grain/extract recipe so I guess you could say I
chickened out on the all grain part. The reason for
this post is to ask if anyone has any last minute
advice (sort of like asking for last rites) Hopfully
all the stuff I've learned by reading this rag will
pay off.

I also want to pass on some sage advice. Never, ever,
take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

Cheers

Jerry "Beaver" Pelt 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:17:23 -0500
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: Wood Alcohol

Doug Brown asked about wood in beer and the creation of wood alcohol.  The
answer is no, this will not create wood alcohol.  Wood alcohol is a
by-product of burning wood in the absence of oxygen.  The technical guys
will give a better answer, but I do remember way back in high school we
"distilled" wood making wood alcohol and charcoal (Mr Goodspeed if you are
listening I did learn something from you!).  So don't worry about wood and
beer making wood alcohol



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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:04:19 +1200
From: Brian Myers <BrianM at AdvantageGroup.co.nz>
Subject: Culturing yeast from beer sediment

Dave Edwards and Matthew Tolley were discussing
yeast ranching...

DME will work fine, but the best food for yeast
is, of course, wort!  On an earlier brew day, just
save a liter or two of your wort before pitching, put
it in a reasonably clean PET bottle, and put it in the
fridge. When you're ready to culture (from a commercial
beer or your own homebrew), pour as much wort as you
need into a saucepan, boil for a while to re-sanitise,
cool, aerate, and feed your yeast.  I've done this
many times. You will probably not see any foam from
the first feeding, and there might be only a little
airlock activity, but you should see a line of 'crud'
in your bottle that will let you know the yeast has
been working. Also, a taste will tell you if the
sweetness is gone.  Feed for the final time on the day
before you want to pitch it and you should get a quick
start.  I've had especially good luck culturing Chimay
and Hoegaarden White this way.

Hope this helps,
Brian



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:39:00 -0600
From: "G. M. Remake" <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Boddingtons Pub Ale

Hello all,

My wife really enjoys Boddingtons Pub Ale, and I'd earn many beer bullets
if I could brew something similar.  Surprisingly, a search of the archives
turned up only one recipe.  It suggested an OG of 1.035 using 96.5% pale
malt, 0.5% black malt, and 3% sugar, with 30 IBUs from a mix of many hops
at 60 and 15 minutes.  I'd prefer a few more data points.  To my tastes,
Boddingtons is somewhat heavier and less bitter than the referenced recipe
would suggest, and I'd expect to see a bit of crystal in the grist.  There
seems to be very little hops flavor or aroma, so limited late additions
appear appropriate.  Can anyone share a recipe with which they've had
success in replicating this ale?  Perhaps someone can provide accurate
basic data like OG, IBUs, SRM, etc.?  Thanks for any help.

Cheers!

Greg


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:34:05 -0400
From: "Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard" <taliesin2 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic carboys

> A couple HBD'ers out there asked whether plastic carboys were Okay to 
> use as fermenters.  The two plastics identified were no. 1 (PETE) and 3 
> (V). Also, those plastic water bottles used on commercial water coolers 
> were also mentioned.

I'm not sure what kind of plastic my home brew kit is. But I got a clear 
plastic hose with it and plastic carboy that looks like its a one of those
5 gallon paint buckets that major contractor use. Thoughts? And BTW, the 
kit itself is about 5 yrs old. Unused. :-(
- --
Everything on this earth has a purpose, and every disease an herb to
cure it, and every person a mission. This is the Indian theory of
existence. --Mourning Dove, 1888-1936


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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:02:14 -0400
From: "Atticus & Kitty" <katticus at earthlink.net>
Subject: mead fermentation

What a great forum! Just got my computer and didn't think I would find
anything like this out there. I've been brewing for a few years now and have
done well with some ales and lagers and not so well with a double bock. My
love for Vikings though has prompted me to start a small batch of mead. It
is a different task. I found that I didn't quit get a vigorous initial
fermentation from my "basic" recipe. It did act up in a couple days,
starting w/ a bubble (or two) every 35-40 seconds. The pace picked up over
the next week until it got to about 1 bubble every 15 seconds. Then it
slowed back down and stopped all together in almost 2 weeks. From the
research I did on the web (all very different opinions!) I decided to rack
and taste. What I had was a cloudy, sparkling, sweet and somewhat yeasty
mead. Not terrible or anything but not the "drink of the gods" I was hoping
for. I've let it set now for a week and though the air lock has a bubble in
it I have yet to see one come up & it is still cloudy. Is this normal
considering my recipe? Should I just be patient and let it sit ( a general
theory on various sites) I've read some previous emails & it seems as though
this sparkling will ferment away (if I let it). If that's the case I can see
why it's yeasty but if not then it seems an awfully quick fermentation
(something I had not expected from a mead).
Recipe:
2 Lbs clover honey (not sue bee)
1Lb buckwheat honey
1 Gallon of water
1 Pkg. Red Star Champagne Yeast (started in a cup of 90 degree water)
1 Tsp Mead Yeast Nutrient
I pasteurized the must then after cooling added the starter and nutrient. If
anyone has any feedback I would REALLY appreciate it as my brew store is a
little lacking in knowledge of meads and the book I have doesn't really
cover this problem ( if it is even one).



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:33:05 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Weak yeast yeild weak offspring?

I made a Russian Imperial Stout (1.105 og) a few weeks ago. I dropped the
wort on top of the yeast cake from a 1.054 og amber. It was Wyeast 1968.
Fermentation took off like a rocket. Blew out the airlock, made a mess
oozing out of the primary. Smelled like heaven. Then all of a sudden it just
quit. Made it down to 1.047 and stuck.

So after waiting 2 weeks, I pulled a Wyeast 1056 smakpak that was 18 months
old out of the kegerator and smakked it. Took a full 9 days for it to fully
expand. Dropped it into a quart of 1.054 (left over amber wort) and it took
3 days to build a krausen. My idea was to use this 1056 yeast to try and
finish off the the RIP ferment, but at this point I have my doubts if its
going to go. It seems like the old tired weakend yeast, can't get going even
in fresh wort.

I added another quart of 1.054 wort this evening now that the starter is at
high krausen. I'll dump the whole thing into the RIP in the morning, but do
you think I'm just wasting my time and energy? Is the 1056 yeast basically
beyond its useful life at this point?

Charley



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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:30:11 -0500
From: Harlan Bauer <blacksab at midwest.net>
Subject: DMS/persistent infection

Brad Richards asks about possible causes for a persistent infection leading 
to elevated DMS levels.

Elevated DMS levels are a tell-tale sign of an enteric infection. Enteric 
bacteria are a class of wort-spoiling bacteria (as opposed to beer-spoiling 
bacteria) which infect the wort PRIOR to the onset of active fermentation. 
Once fermentation has begun, however, the production of alcohol and the 
lowering of the pH create a hostile environment toxic to this class of 
bacteria. This is one reason that adequate pitching rates and aeration are 
so important--if you can get the wort fermenting quickly enough, the 
alcohol and relatively low pH will kill the enterics before they have 
reached a number great enough to produce DMS levels at or above flavor 
threshold.

However, there are 2 distinct aromas that DMS may take. One is from 
bacterial infection, and smells VERY strongly of rotting vegetables; the 
other aroma is not bacterial in origin, and smells more like creamed corn, 
the ocean or oysters (I do not detect DMS as creamed corn), and is a 
natural part of the brewing process and is expelled during the boiling 
process. This is one of the main reasons for conducting a vigorous boil in 
an open kettle (the others being greater hop utilization and the 
development of the hot break).

Given your attention to sanitation, and the fact that your lag times are 
relatively short, it would seem unlikely from your description that the 
cause of your elevated DMS levels are bacterial in origin. The more likely 
cause, without actually having smelled your beer, is that:

 >The kettle remains closed from the time the chiller
 >goes in (10 minutes before the end of the boil) until the chilled
 >wort's in the primary.

This is rather a long period of time in which the naturally occurring DMS 
is trapped in the kettle without being able to dissipate. The resulting 
condensate (rich in DMS) collects on the lid, and drops back into the wort. 
This is precisely the reason that commercial kettles have a condensate ring 
inside the stack to prevent this DMS-rich condensate from dripping back 
into the kettle.

So, those are the two primary causes of DMS in the finished beer. Without 
resorting to fancy lab equipment, how do you determine the cause of the 
elevated DMS levels? It's rather simple, really, and involves training your 
nose to distinguish between the two. Bacterial DMS can usually be found in 
a failed Wort Stability Test, so that becomes your first reference point. 
The other "type" of DMS can be found in Rolling Rock, and many German 
lagers--a Munich Helles would be a good choice because of its relatively 
low hopping rate (hops tend to mask the aroma).

Now, once you have trained your nose to easily distinguish between the two, 
go back and smell you beer against these two reference points. Which does 
it smell more like?

If it does, in fact, turn out to be bacterial in origin, look to OVER 
sanitization with chemicals, especially in your starters, which could 
weaken your yeast strain causing incomplete or disordered fermentations.

If it turns out not to be biological in origin (which I suspect), remove 
the lid from the boiling kettle until the wort has cooled to ~120-140*F, 
and THEN place the lid on the kettle. By this time, very little DMS is 
being produced, and even less condensate is collecting on the lid of the 
kettle only to fall back into the wort.

IMO, it is almost impossible to have an enteric infection above flavor 
threshold (assuming you don't throw a kitchen sponge into a kettle of 
cooled wort) if reasonable sanitation is practiced and adequate quantities 
of fresh, viable yeast is pitched along with adequate aeration, since the 
fermenting beer acts essentially as a sanitizer. Blasphemy? Not when you 
understand the distinction between Wort-spoiling bacteria and Beer-spoiling 
bacteria.

I hope this helps.

I'd like to second the accolades Bill Stewart at Moving Brews has recently 
been receiving here. I bought some things from him a few years ago, and I 
can't recommend him highly enough. He definitely knows what he's selling 
and will sell you the pump you NEED, even if it costs less than the pump 
you thought you needed. No connection, just a very, very satisfied 
customer. He's definitely one of us.

Harlan.






__

Harlan Bauer                            Malt does more than Milton can
Murphysboro, IL                         To justify God's ways to man...
<blacksab at midwest.net>                             --A. E. Houseman



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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 02:32:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: HBD Sponsorship

Eric Schoville wrote:

> I question whether or not a DSL line is the best possible
> solution for the future of the HBD.  While I can see some definite
> advantages of this route, mainly immediate access to the server by Pat,
> the cost of $2400 per year seems extreme.

I don't know. I think a DSL connection would be ideal for the
HBD. Having access to the server would eliminate almost all extended
server outages. And DSL, bandwith-wise, is probably just fine for the
HBD. I'm not sure what HBD's subscriber base is, but we send a 6-10K
newsletter to 5000 subscribers and it takes about 2-3 hours with a meager
128K IDSL connection.

> If we can find another host 
> for the server, wouldn't that be preferable to paying $2400 per year and
> having advertising on the server. 

Speaking as someone who has expressed a strong interest to Pat in the full
$2400 sponsorship, I actually think it is important to be concerned about
the potential commercialization of the HBD. As someone who has followed
the HBD for many years, I think there is a lot of value in the
non-commercial tradition of the HBD. If hbd.org were inundated with
animated, rotating banner ads, and the digest itself had sales pitches
inserted between every message I think hbd would suffer greatly.

On the other hand, if done properly, 'corporate' and individual
sponsorships would raise all the needed funds and wouldn't compromise the
integrity or fundamental mission of the hbd. Even if you were to limit
'corporate' sponsors to a simple name + URL/800 number in the masthead
(and I think you should), I can't imagine you'd have trouble finding
somebody to fund HBD year after year. 

I think that hbd is worth $2400 a year or more, and I have been very
excited at the prospect of having my business associated with HBD
sponsorship for the next 365 digests. I mean, for me it's a no-brainer. I
spend a lot more money on other forms of advertising that are *way* less
worthy, way less useful for the hobby, etc. HBD is like the "Science" or
"Nature" of the homebrewing world. Since I told Mr. Babcock that Northern
Brewer would be a willing donor, I've been checking my email hourly to see
if we'd actually get an okay to send in a check. Perhaps I'm a little too
excitable regarding this...

> Surely amongst all of the
> subscribers, someone knows of a company or school who could host the
> HBD.

There's a huge difference between having a server hosted somewhere and
having the hardware actually at your disposal. The chatter of the hard
drives, the flashing lights on the router... On the other hand, there are
undoubtedly cheaper ways to host the HBD. On the other other hand, there
*is* a willing sponsor out there (here! here!).

- ----
Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer / 1150 Grand Avenue / St. Paul, MN 55105
www.northernbrewer.com



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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:46:07 -0500
From: "pksmith_morin" <pksmith_morin at email.msn.com>
Subject: Goose Island

Hi Will - Goose Island has two brewpubs; one at 1800 Clybourn, north of
downtown, and the other at 3525 Clark Street, again north of the Loop, in
Wrigleyville (by the Cubs' Ballpark).

The production facility is at 1800 Fulton Street, in the "Warehouse District."

You can e-mail me, and I can arrange a tour of the production facility, if you
are in the area.  Through several incarnations there, I am now the
Distribution Manager.  You can also e-mail for more info on the pubs.

Cheers,

Paul Smith






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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:33:56 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: HBD doing DSL


I have have to agree that $2400 US sounds pretty extreme for DSL!
Though in looking at the page, I don't see where Eric got that number.
Up here we can get DSL or Cable Modem for about $50 CDN per month.
So in a year that's less than $500 US including taxes.  Someone on the
service provider side of that DSL connection is making an awful pile
of money, if it is a real figure.

I've already recommended my ASP at http://www.istop.com/.
Their prices http://www.istop.com/webprice.html are amazingly cheap,
and especially so for the HBD since it's Canadian dollars.  I have no
affiliation other than that I am very pleased with their service.

I guess there is an advantage to having the server right at your fingertips,
but there are also advantages to having someone else back it up on a
regular basis, and keep the backup tapes stored off-site.  

In general I think the idea of advertising on the web page is a good one,
if it can fly and help pay for the digest.  I for one read HBD on the web, 
and wouldn't mind one bit if there were ads there.

Anyway, whatever happens I'm sure it will work out fine.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --

http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html





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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:55:27 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: infection troubleshooting

Hi folks:

Brad Richards laments his possible infection problems and wonders what to
do.  Some suggestions:

(1)    Run wort stability and pitched wort stability tests.  (Check the HBD
archives for "wort stability test" and "Bonham" and you should find some of
my prior posts on this topic -- IMHO, these should be done as a matter of
course by serious brewers on every batch)  This should give you a decent
idea of whether your beer is infected ab initio (e.g., from transfer hoses)
or from the yeast starter.  (From your description of your procedures, I
suspect that you may be getting contamination from your starter.)  Of
course, if the WST / PWST tests come out clean, but the beer still turns out
infected, then your infection vector is probably downstream from your
fermenter (e.g., kegs, transfer hoses, etc.)

(2)    Plate out some of the contaminated beer on LMDA to ID what the bugs
are.  If it's a pedio infection, replace all your plastic and get downright
medieval on cleaning everything else -- pedio can be a real bitch to get rid
of.

All the best -- LKB



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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:23:07 -0700
From: J Daoust <dowquest1 at home.com>
Subject: boiling vanill beans

Has anybody used a vanilla bean in the boil for the last 10 minutes or
so??  I am thinking of trying it but have had one question about
tannins...  Thanks, Jerry Daoust


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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:56:02 -0400
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: amber ale

Hi  list,

A couple years ago I enjoyed a "winter brew" that was flavored with
raspberry and nutmeg.  I believe it was one of the Pete's Wicked series of
beers.  It was a nice flavor combination.  Of course I want to make my own
version of it, but I haven't found a recipe that looks right and I'm not
ready to design my own yet.  From what I have learned this was an Amber Ale
with flavor added.  What makes an ale an amber ale?  Does anyone out there
have an all grain recipe for a suitable ale to fit this style?  

After bottling for a year and a half, I just kegged my second batch.  I
love it.  No bottles to rinse and rinse.  No buckets to wash, no caps to
buy, no priming, no concerns about low carbonation.  After a long hot day
in the foundry, I can go downstairs to the fridge, draw a big cold glass of
beer and read the HBD.  It's great.  I gotta get a life!  Thanks to all of
you who offered advice on getting started with kegging.  Now I need more kegs.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, NY







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---