---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
            www.northernbrewer.com 1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!! ("Rob Moline")
  Glycol/Water ("A. J.")
  spent grains in the REAL "Great White North" (Alan McKay)
  Glycol substitute ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Yeasty Flavor (Stephen Postek)
  Albany, NY Brew Experiences (Bob Hall)
  re: Nasty, wet spent grains and freezing weather... (Carl)
  Harshness in beer ("George de Piro")
  re: Cyser....kind of ("Daniel C Stedman")
  time travel ("Daniel C Stedman")
  Re Kansas City Water (John Palmer)
  More Stupid Brewer Tricks ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Dubbel ("Spies, Jay")
  Water analysis, GABF, KROC ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Open Fermentation/Censorship /HSA is dead (again) ? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Beer can manufacturing ("Dave Howell")
  Fat Tire Recipe request (TSteinin)
  RE: Wood Alcohol (Bob Sheck)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:36:53 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

			Congratulations !!!!
     Well, I call them the way I see them...
     From a letter I was asked to write to recommend a certain Mr. De Piro
for a position on the Judging staff of the GABF, way back in April of
1999...and reviewed by some bloke called George...

>Hi Rob,
>Thanks for the glowing recommendation!  You wrote:

>>I can also sincerely add, that in but a few short months or years from
>> now, he will not only, with your approval, continue to be a fine addition
to
>> your judging staff; he will also, in my opinion, be a Gold Medalist at
this
>> same competition.

>Geez!  Talk about pressure!

     Well, folks, another of your HBD colleagues has scored the big one, a
Gold Medal  at  GABF for American Brown Ale!!! And as far as needing any
pressure, let me call it up again with my prediction that this is only the
first of many for George, and the C.H. Evans' Brewing Company!

     Of course, all the winners deserve congratulations, but I would like to
issue special praise for 2 of my old friends...
     The GREAT folks  at  Left Hand Brewing for their Gold in the Brown Porter
category...I first met Dick Doore in 1994, when his booth  at  GABF was next to
LABCO's...we did NADA...he did a Gold and a Bronze...
     And especially to a "Brewer's Brewer"...Tomme Arthur of Solana Pizza
Port for his Silver Medal in the Experimental category!! Tomme is one of
those brewers that stands up for others, even when they don't know they need
the help. His past also includes Gold  at  GABF!

     Folk's, nicer and more deserving brewers may be out there, but I
haven't met them!

     Congratulations, Gentlemen!!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump
Member, C.H. Evans Fan Club
Member, Left Hand Brewing Fan Club
Memebr, Solana Pizza Port Brewing Fan Club

 "The More I Know About Brewers, The More I Realize How Lucky I Am To Know
Some!"



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 02:13:17 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!!

			The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!!

>From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
>Subject: Glycol substitute
>With pure glycol being expensive why could not one just use automotive
>antifreeze in a ratio with water that assures that it won't freeze at
>freezer temperatures?  Ten gallons of this isn't cheap either but probably
>cheaper and easier to obtain than glycol for the average homebrewer?

     There are many things that auto antifreeze can be used for....killing
your pets, poisoning your garden plants, killing children, and keeping your
auto cool.
     This stuff is poison...and should not be used in any application that
comes anywhere near your brewery....
	Food grade glycol is the only thing, except for water, or blends thereof,
that should be involved in any chilling application in a brewhouse, be it
commercial or home based...and it is not that expensive, when you blend it
with water...as is often done....
     Pin holes do develop in Heat Exchangers......and while no one wants any
glycol, of even a food grade nature involved in your product...you certainly
don't want to kill your customers....or yourself.....with auto antifreeze
coolant...
     If you cannot afford food grade glycol...use water....

Jethro Gump
 "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:35:04 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Glycol/Water

I think most homebrewers use propylene glycol (definitely to be
recommended because it is not toxic relative to ethylene glycol but
always remember that the treatment for ethylene glycol poisoning is
ethanol - now it never hurts to play it on the safe side) which is sold
under the trade name Sierra in hardware, home depot type stores and
automotive parts stores.


WRT Tim Burkhart's water report: Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00, Magnesium
Hardness (Mg)= 36.00, Sodium (Na)= 47.60, Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00,
Chloride (Cl)= 37.10, Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00, Total Hardness= 137,
Alkalinity= 53,PH= 9.4
Total dissolved solids= 356
he asked the following questions:
 - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm
looking for
in my water analysis?
 - If it is different, how do I figure the actual calcium content?
Calcium hardness is a measure of the positive charge on calcium ions. It
is sometimes given in terms of the actual charge in units of
milliequivalents per liter or millivals but most often in "parts per
million as calcium carbonate" which is  50 times the millivals. To
calculate the amount of calcium ions divide ppm as CaCO3 by 50 and
multiply by 20 e.g. for this water 20*94/50 = 37.6 mg/L calcium ion.
 - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to
acidify the
mash water down to 7?
No. In this regard it is not the alkalinity which is so important as the
alkalinity and in particular its relationship to the calcium hardness.
Alkalinity - (calcium hardness)/3.5 - (magnesium hardness)/7 = 21 is the
"residual alkalinity" for this water and this is a very respectably
number for nearly all beers
 - Do I need to mess with Gypsum or any other mineral addition?
For beers where you want the sulphates effect on the hops flavor some
gypsum might be of benefit. For establishment of pH it is not necessary
except for beers brewed exclusively with pale malts.
 - Should I take the "anal" out of analysis, relax and brew with the
water as
is... while still acidifying the sparge water?

This is a good place to mention Ken  Schwartz's trick. Acidify sparge
water with a couple of tablespoons of dry malt extract.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:12:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: spent grains in the REAL "Great White North"


Well, you 'muricans seem to be in quite a quandry about what to do with
spent grains in the winter.  Myself, I just keep dumpin' 'em into my compost
bin whether it be +30C in the summer, or -30C in the winter.  Yes, spent grains
stink the high-heavens when decomposing, but that's why you don't put the 
compost bin next to the door!

BTW, in my experience small animals like birds and mice won't touch spent
grains, I guess because they know that all the goodness is already gone
out of them.  

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:38:53 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Glycol substitute

I don't know if this information is pertinent but, can you use RV
(Recreational Vehicle) antifreeze?  It costs about $1.88 a gallon in the
US.  I don't know about its thermal characteristics but it is advertised to
be good to -50F.

They use it to flush and fill the water lines in RVs for the winter.  It
can't be toxic since it is used on the drinking water lines.  


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:19:49 -0400
From: Stephen Postek <spostek at hdms.com>
Subject: Yeasty Flavor


I recently brewed up a batch of Connecticut Ale for the Clone Brews 
book.  I have had mixed results to this point with the recipes, 
probably due to pilot error more than anything else.

I have had the bottles in the basement carbonating for about three 
weeks now.  Usually I leave it upstairs but I figured maybe it was 
time to start utilizing the basement a bit more for brewing.  I took 
one out of the box over the weekend and it appeared a little hazy.  
It seemed to have a fair bit of carbonation in the bottle, yet there 
was a pronounced yeasty twang to it.  I know this taste well from 
trying to the squeeze the last few drops out of the bottle while 
decanting and having a bit of yeast fall into the glass.

Could it be that the basement is cooler than my dining room and it is 
not done carbonating yet even after three weeks?  I have a double 
layer of cardboard on top of the cement and the bottles are in carriers 
so the temp is maybe 60-65 degrees versus 70-72 upstairs where I 
normally store them.

Thanks.

Steve
spostek at voicenet.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:44:37 -0700
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: Albany, NY Brew Experiences

My group of college hockey fans, the CHF (College Hockey Fanatics), has
a 60 room block in Albany, NY, for the NCAA Frozen Four at the Pepsi
Center next April. Would appreciate recommendations for brew-related
experiences (including don't-miss brews, tours, food, etc) that could be
included in our upcoming newsletters.

Thanks,
Bob



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:08:14 -0400
From: Carl <carl at INTERNETCSI.COM>
Subject: re: Nasty, wet spent grains and freezing weather...

We have one of those giant hampster wheel type composters that many
towns/counties/states give away free, and all spent grain goes in there
 - gardens and house plants love the results!

Carl Schulze
Group Home Brewery



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:06:52 -0400
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: Harshness in beer

Hi all,

It's been a while since I've written in (or read) the HBD regularly; it was
much easier to read it at work in the pharmaceutical industry.  Brewing
doesn't allow that much free time!

Anyway, on to the question:  Peter from Oz relates a tale of woe about
harshness in his Munich Helles.  He wonders what the cause could be.  Jeff
Renner suggests that oversparging could be the culprit.  He is correct, it
could be a problem, but there are some other things to look at as well:

Harshness is commonly caused by high esters or fusel alcohols (alcohols with
Mol. Wt. > ethanol).  These compounds are formed as byproducts of
fermentation.  Pitching too little viable yeast can increase concentrations
of both classes of compounds.  Pitching and/or fermenting at too high a
temperature will also increase both.  Yeast strain selection also plays a
role.

Estery beer will taste fruity at palatable concentrations, but if certain
esters get too high the beer takes on a strong, harsh, solvent-like
character.  Ethyl acetate is commonly to blame.  Fusel alcohols will smell
somewhat alcoholic (making the beer smell stronger than it is) and sometimes
even fruity, but they are also harsh in high quantities.  They are always
formed by an excessively high rate of yeast growth.

Of course, all of this is just speculation because I have not tasted Peter's
beer.  That would be the easiest way to give a definitive answer.  If there
are any knowledgeable brewers in your area (hobby or commercial) you may
benefit by having them evaluate the beer.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:52:35 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: re: Cyser....kind of

>I put them 2 and 2 together and got a great idea. Without thinking it
>through, I just went ahead and racked my mead - all but the last half
>gallon or so, and poured my cider mixture (5 gal. cider, 1.5lb brown
>sugar, yeast nutrient) on top of the leftover mead and yeast cake and
>attached blowoff hose. I got foam-over within 2 hours.

>I just want to know...has anyone else tried this?

I did this with one batch of cider to another and had terrible results. Some of
the worst yeast bite I have ever tasted, and it never cleared. This was using
Lalvin 1118 champagne yeast, which should have been durable. Don't know why, but
 I think the stress of fermenting out something with so few nutrients leaves the
 yeast screwed up for any further work.

YMMV, but I won't try it again...

Dan in Minnetonka
(with 12 gallons of 1.048 wit beer and 5 gallons of cider fermenting away!)




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:00:26 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: time travel

jwhite writes:

>I've got some business on the west coast this upcoming week and all the
>travel from the east to west coast makes me thirty!

While I myself am only twenty-nine and not that interested in being thirty, I
think that there are a lot of people who are going to want to know how you
achieved this!

;-)

Dan in Minnetonka




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:26:12 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re Kansas City Water

Tim asked whether his water was good for mashing Pales, Browns, and Porters 
without mineral additions.
His water is:
Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00
Magnesium Hardness (Mg)= 36.00
Sodium (Na)= 47.60
Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00
Chloride (Cl)= 37.10
Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00
Total Hardness= 137
Alkalinity= 53
PH= 9.4
Total dissolved solids= 356
 - -----------------------------------------
 - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm looking for
in my water analysis?
yes.
 - If it is different, how do I figure the actual calcium content?
Divide by 50, multiply by 20
 - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to acidify the
mash water down to 7?
No, not for Porters. Acidifying the sparge is like using an elephant gun 
for rabbit hunting. But 9.3 is quite high. If it is real, then it may be 
warrented in your case for brewing pale Pales.
 - Do I need to mess with Gypsum or any other mineral addition?
Probably not.
 - Should I take the "anal" out of analysis, relax and brew with the water as
is... while still acidifying the sparge water?
Try it without doing Anything first.

To determine what styles your water is good for, by itself, for mashing, 
you need to calculate the water's Residual Alkalinity.
See Chapter 15 of my book for a complete explanation. 
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html
To do this, you need 3 ions: Ca, Mg, and HCO3. Or Calcium Hardness as 
CaCO3, Magnesium Hardness as CaCO3, and Alkalinity as CaCO3.

Since you have the latter, we will use those. The equation is RA = 
Alkalinity - ((Calcium H/3.5) +( Magnesium H/7))
ie. 53 - (94/3.5 + 36/7) =  21 RA as CaCO3  and when you know that 0 RA is 
a pH of about 5.7 and 60 RA units = .1 pH, then we can say that your RA is 
about 5.73
This base malt mash pH means that you are a little bit on the low side for 
brewing Porters, but spot on for Pales. Browns should be okay. (And your 
flavor ions: sulfate, sodium, and chloride look good too.)

However, your quoted water pH of 9.34 is weird. It is really high for the 
quoted Ca, Mg and CO3/Alkalinity values.
I suspect that like most water reports, you are looking at a list of 
individual averages, which do not add up to a balanced system. Though 
having an Average of 9.34 is still weird. I suggest calling the water 
department and getting the results of a single analysis so you can check on 
what the actual balanced analysis is.

Hope this helped more than not!
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:30:06 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: More Stupid Brewer Tricks

Lately I've been experimenting with doing my secondary in corny kegs. I was
using plastic zip ties to hold the dry hop bag to the dip tube in order to
keep the hops totally submerged. The only problem with this method was
trying to get it attached. Then one day I was in the hardware store and came
across some large size ball bearings. Thinking this would work to keep the
bags submerged I bought some, sanitized them and put them in the hop bag.
After a week I transferred the beer to a serving keg only to find that the
beer has a foul metallic taste and the ball bearings had a dark coating on
them. I do ten gallon batches so I had another keg that I had used the zip
tie on. That beer (an APA) tastes great. I'm not necessarily looking for
other ideas to weight the bags down.

My real question is, is there anything I can do to this beer to get rid of
that taste? Finings? Filtering (I do have a filtering system)? Blend with
the good keg?

Also, am I doing harm to myself by drinking this? In other words, did I have
some potentially hazardous substance leach into the beer?

Please help. After about five years of brewing I recently had to dump my
first batch of beer due to some type of infection (actually believe I got
some bad yeast) and have another beer that is so so. Not because of
infection but due, I think, to too high an initial fermentation temp. It
breaks my heart to throw beer down the drain.


Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:07:03 -0400
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Dubbel

All -

Russ asked about recommendations for a Dubbel.  Here's my take:  
Good start, but I'd add a few things...

First, save yourself a lot of headaches and just go with a single infusion
mash at 153 for 60 minutes.  Doing the bulk of your sacc rest at 148 will
give you too thin of a beer and that's not what this style is about.  Mash
out if the mood hits you.

Second, the grain bill looks okay, but I'd scratch the biscuit and
substitute a pound of caravienne.  Then nix the caramunich.  You'll get too
many bready flavors with the biscuit and caramunich that'll clash with the
estery yeast flavors.  Aim for an OG in the 1.070's.

Which brings me to my third point.  You made no mention of yeast selection,
and in this beer, the yeast is everything.  I use Whitelabs WLP500, and a
local brewpub slurry, Wyeast 3787 mixed together.  Use a trappist-specific
strain to get the flavors you're looking for, though.  Ferment in the high
60's and you'll get a load of fruity, plummy, red fruit esters that go well
with the malt.

Your hops seem about right.  I aim for about 23 IBU's, YMMV.  

This is, overall, one of my favorite recipes to make.  I *aim* for Chimay
Grand Reserve.  I say aim because the real thing is SOOOOO good. Above all,
have fun with it and tweak the recipe till it hits you just right.

HTH,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:21:40 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Water analysis, GABF, KROC

Hi Tim, 
Some of what you wrote:
>Johnson County Water District 1 (My brewing water source / filtered through
>PUR charcol filter)
>- -----------------------------------------
>Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00
>Magnesium Hardness (Mg)= 36.00
>Sodium (Na)= 47.60
>Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00
>Chloride (Cl)= 37.10
>Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00
>Total Hardness= 137
>Alkalinity= 53
>PH= 9.4
>Total dissolved solids= 356
>- -----------------------------------------
> - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm looking for
>in my water analysis?

Yes. According to AWWA's Standard Methods for the Analysis of Water and
Wastewater: 
	Hardness is expressed as 'as CaCO3 (calcium carbonate)' and is
calculated as:
	Hardness as CaCO3=(Ca, mg/L)*(2.497) + (Mg, mg/L)*(4.118)

Therefore, to get Ca (mg/L) from Ca hardness (mg/L CaCO3), divide by
2.497. 
To get Mg (mg/L) from Mg hardness (mg/L as CaCO3), divide by 4.118. 
So, if my math is right, you have 38 mg/L Ca, and 9 mg/L Mg.  Forgive my
rounding, but I have a hard time believing the data are accurate to 4
significant digits ;-) .  

The rest of the stuff is in ppm or mg/L. 

I'm guessing that the reason for the difference between the total
hardness and the sum of the Ca and Mg hardness (7mg/L) is from temporary
hardness related to dissolved CO2 (the carbonate system), and/or errors
inherent in the analysis of Ca and Mg. There are some other minor
players in water hardness, but I don't think they'll be on this order.
Certainly nothing to worry about. 

> - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to acidify the
>mash water down to 7?

Secondary Drinking Water Regulations in the US (as well as Canada and
the World Health Organization) list pH 6.5 - 8.5 as nonenforcable
secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCLs) to maintain aesthetic water
quality, so 9.4 seems a little high. Are you sure that's what's coming
out of your faucet? If you're using your own pH meter, are you
calibrating it correctly? 

I'm sure you'll get a flurry of postings related to adjusting this pH
down for mashing, so I won't get into it. 

I'll also leave the brewing water appropriateness stuff to others and to
your brewing texts (not to mention that I don't know!!).

On another note, my wife and I along with a couple friends had a great
time at the GABF this weekend. Some of the highlights were getting my
copy of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing signed first by Micheal Jackson,
then by Charlie himself! Also really enjoyed the KROC's beer forum on
Thursday night, although we regrettably had to leave before hearing
Geoff Larson of Alaskan Brewing speak. We'd been up since 4am (2am
Denver time) and were completely whipped. Out of great reverence for
Geoff, however, I did wear my Alaskan Smoked Porter shirt and cornered
him into signing that also! I can now die in peace. Actually not yet, I
still have to figure out a way to get that Smoked Port shipped out here
to Buffalo when it comes out in November!

Cheers!
Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY
Niagara Association of Homebrewers

- -------------------------------------------------------
"A society that will trade a little liberty for a 
little order will lose both, and deserves neither."
Thomas Jefferson
- -------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:25:51 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Open Fermentation/Censorship /HSA is dead (again) ?

David Houseman asks ..

>Jim Busch's comment about lagers benefiting from open
>fermentation lead met to ask why?

About 5 time per 'gest I feel like screaming, "look in the friggin'
archives", but since I don't do this myself I won't throw stones.
The atmospheric O2 has an impact on yeast metabolism (and
other things) but *may* be positive in some circumstances.
See  Andy Walsh's excellent note on the topic at:
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html
discusses one issue in depth.  Jim Busch paper on open
fermentation appears on the same site.

==
AJ as usual knocks one out of the park, tho' on the non-technical
censorship issue.

<<Censorship of incoming e-mail is the fault of neither the bean counters
nor the HR people - it is the lawyers keeping the
management in perpetual fear  [...] Thank your government for
this situation.>>

As one who uses lawyers on civil/contract matters occasionally it is quite
apparent that their primary job function is to scare the bejeebers out of
their clients by reciting every potential (tho' improbable) risk.

So as the blame for this situation moves from beancounters to HR to lawyers
to government let's go full circle and understand that the government is us.
Our horse&buggy era design representative method of governance is as crude
at representing our interests as to be like typing with mittens on - but
that's the system and if you don't vote you don't deserve any better.  Vote
!   I personally think (especially this election year) that we should have
the option of casting a negative
vote - so which ever 'lessor of two evils' wins won't strut around
thinking they have a public mandate.

I am deeply troubled by any censorship tho' I see Pat's request
as a suggestion to keep the language unfilterable as a favor to
our HBD  comrades in corporate gulags.  As an escapee
from such a gulag I am sympathetic.  I am also a person who understands the
value of a well chosen word to add emphasis
to a point.  Since these filters are pretty dumb  - just consider
it a challenge and find your thesaurus.  It doesn't really impact the
content in any way - just the precise wording.

===
Richard Sieben says ...

>but for us homebrewers, where yeast
>is still present in the beer, the oxygen is taken up very quickly.

That's just not true - yeast do not continuously consume oxygen
as it is available. I have a nice Czech paper that indicates that
most of the O2 is used just after the glucose/sucrose are gone
regardless of how much is supplied.  Also a recent one that
shows excess O2 in the fermentor may reduce sulfite levels
and have a negative effect on flavor stability.  The dormant yeast
on the bottom of a bottle of keg do act to reduce oxidation but
don't expect them to consume significant amounts of
bottling/kegging O2.

>In fact, if we keep the bottled beer cold (near freezing)with out
>filtering out the yeast it will be flavor stable for 4 months or maybe
>even longer.

True but only if the yeast cooperate and don't autolyze.  Many
yeast will last 4 cool-months w/o any trouble.  Some (like most
weizen yeast) will stink like an old shoe even at near freezing
temps in a lot less.  The other factor involved the initial beer flavor
stability.  There have been several studies that numerically
related factors (malt lipid oxidase enzyme level, ITT (oxidation
state)) to the flavor stability of beers.  It is just silly to say that
all unfiltered beers no matter how made will be stable for 4 months.
I've seen counterexamples up close tho' at something like 3
months.   Most HBs are flavor stable as indicated above - some
few are not.

I completely agree that post ferment oxygen and heat are big
flavor issues - but there is absolutely no denying basics - that
excessive exposure to oxygen during the mash & boil produce
cruder flavored beers immediately  (see Kunze).  Also two
papers in the past 2 years show that oxygen molecules involved
in the breakdown of fatty acids into trans-2-nonenal from isotope
studies do NOT come from post fermentation oxygen - which
refutes older theories on the subject.  None of this proves that
HSA is the source - but one must posit some prefermentation
source related to ITT values and lipase and that sounds a lot
like mash oxidation.

>HSA was brought up by Japanese brewers who were making a
>light, dry lager (remember the 'dry'beers?)  The test results were
> INCONCLUSIVE, but IF there is any impact from HSA, it would
>only apply to LIGHT DRY LAGER that will be exposed to adverse
>conditions, like living on a grocery store shelf for a year.

Japanese only study LIGHT DRY LAGER and also of course
LIGHT DRY LAGER has unique staling properties which apply
to no other beer ?  There a little bit of logic missing from this
attempt to bury a topic by innuendo.

Trans-2-nonenal is a well known characteristic staling compound
which derives from linoleic acid through a serious of (only partly
verified) transformations.  Whether it's from the mash& boil or
not it is a real if uncommon problem and does appear in HB at
times.

>you should concentrate on being more anal about
>post fermentation aeration.

I completely agree - but you can't just sweep cardboard
flavor under a rug by calling it a ghost. It is provably NOT
from bottling oxygen - tho its rate of formation increases
with warm beer storage.

One other form of staling which is talked about a lot in the
literature is much more common than cardboard, but very
little discussed on HBD is that ales tend to become
over-sweet and with a molasses-like note as an early form
of staling. This happens a lot earlier than 4 months - see
diagram in M&BS pp872-873.

>The problem that commercial brewers have is that they have
>to take the yeast out to make it nice and clear, this also
>means that they have no real flavor stability and the beer
>begins to change as soon as it leaves the brewery.

Live yeast play an active role in reducing beer - tho' not
necessarily in removing significant amounts of oxygen.
I have repeatedly found that bottle conditioned beers - stored
in a cool basement for periods of a year or even two
are always fresh enough to enjoy.. I usually find when
I clean a keg at  3-4 months the yeast at a far lower temp
have undergone a significant degree of autolysis.  I can't
explain why.  I have several times bottle conditioned and
force carbonated the identical same beer and always
several months later the bottle conditioned beer clearly
has the flavor edge - often with better hop aroma.

Yeast can help tremendously,  but don't assume the ones
that make it out of the fermentor are heathy enough to help.

===
Peter J. Calinski ...
>He claims draft beer always gives him a headache.

Peter's friend probably has problems consuming  the yeast
in unfiltered beer.  Not uncommon.

 -S






Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:24:59 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net>
Subject: Beer can manufacturing


This is only slightly OT, I think most people here might find this
interesting.

I found this while looking for PCS band base station antennas.  Ball makes
some interesting things...

Including beer cans.  The whole container products site is pretty
interesting, too.

http://www.ball.com/bhome/images/inbev.pdf



Dave Howell



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:28:12 EDT
From: TSteinin at aol.com
Subject: Fat Tire Recipe request

Does anyone have a clone recipe for New Belgium's Fat Tire Amber Ale or 
recipe suggestions (grain bill, hops, yeast, and so on)? Since New Belguim is 
not available in Ohio, I need to make it myself.  Any ideas to get me started 
are appreciated, all-grain or extract - does not matter.

Personal email responses are appreciated.

Tim Steininger 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:45:57 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE: Wood Alcohol

Yes I'm a bit behind in absorbing the HBD, but I have to comment about this
as I have a few questions about this after reading about distillation on 
the DBD.

After following the links from
: http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/wash-fruit.htm#pot
I was reading a treatise on distillation which stated that the first to 
come out
of the still is Methanol which IS toxic to the optic nerve.  Now 
considering that
the mash is fermented grain, I would have to conclude that there is _some_ 
portion
of methanol in our beers too.

Maybe A J can help explain this. I'm over my head again on this but still I was
curious. . .

Bob Sheck / DEA- Greenville, NC /

>Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:17:23 -0500
>From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
>Subject: Wood Alcohol
>
>Doug Brown asked about wood in beer and the creation of wood alcohol.  The
>answer is no, this will not create wood alcohol.  Wood alcohol is a
>by-product of burning wood in the absence of oxygen.  The technical guys
>will give a better answer, but I do remember way back in high school we
>"distilled" wood making wood alcohol and charcoal (Mr Goodspeed if you are
>listening I did learn something from you!).  So don't worry about wood and
>beer making wood alcohol



Return to table of contents

---