---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: Rice Lager In A Plastic Bottle (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: Strange Brew ("Stephen Alexander")
  Wyeast Tubes ("Layne T. Rossi")
  Replys ("Graham Sanders")
  Albany area pub ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Alert! Lurker decloaking asking beer related question! ("Jim Hagey")
  Re: How is Zymurgy / AHA these days? ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Non hop beers ("Saptarshi The Dude Guha")
  Thoughts on Grain Storage/Cider (Richard Foote)
  Five Star (Will Fields)
  Stupid Brewer Tricks ("Joye & Kevin Sinn")
  Bottles vs. Kegs ("Steve Schultz")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:09:40 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Re: Rice Lager In A Plastic Bottle

Jeff,

>posted at http://thehennings.com/beer/pool/ricelager.jpg.
>Unfortunately, the cropping resulted in low resolution (fill the
>frame, Pat!), but you can clearly see one of the lovely billiards
>ladies leaning "precariously" (to use Phil's term) over the table.

What's wrong with that picture?  I see a nine ball rack at the

Glad the rice lager survived the trip.  Score one for PET
bottles.  I tried to get some brew to IL this summer.  I had a
3L PET bottle strapped to the luggage rack on the HD Sportster.
I thought I had it securely packaged but the vibrations of the
bike wore a pin hole in one of the "feet" on the bottle.
Score one for the Harley.

 John Schnupp, N3CNL
 Dirty Laundry Homebrewery
 Georgia, VT
 95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 02:41:36 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Strange Brew

> As for the disappearance of the medicinal flavor, I am awaiting comments
> from others more knowledgable than I about what yeast can do with phenols,
> given enough time.

Of course phenolics are the usual culprits when medicil flavors are sighted.

There are several phenolic compounds, related to 4VG (the clovey weizen
beer flavor) that do decay at a rate similar to Jacob's flavor.
4-vinylphenol, for
example is also formed by decarboxylation of coumaric acid by  (perhaps
wild) yeast, and is reported as having a smoky-harsh aroma.  The
decarboxylation is, I am told,  an energy producing process so it is at
least
possible that an organism decarboxylates certain phenolic acids without
significantly changing the FG and that the resulting medicinal flavor
vanishes upon storage.  I wouldn't count it out but it's a pretty uncommon
thing and you'd need both enough of the precursor carboxyl containing
acid along with a yeast that will do the job.  Maybe if clovey-harsh-smokey
seemed medicinal and  ...

Another possibility is that chlorophenols were formed.  Were chlorine or
chlorinated water involved ?  The chlorophenols have a distinctly medicinal
aroma and are not stable either.  One difficulty with this explanation is
that
it is not trivially easy to form flavor-threshold levels of  chlorophenols.
Still one can get 'lucky' I suppose.

 -S(tumped)




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:25:32 -0700
From: "Layne T. Rossi" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Wyeast Tubes

In HBD #3454 Al Pearlstein Asks for Data on Wyeast's new Pitchable Tubes of
yeast.

I can say without doubt that a Wyeast Tube does not replace a decent
starter.

My brew buddy and I bought 4 different yeasts last month.  The dates on the
packages was 8.30.00.  Two XLPacks 3068 and 1056 and two Tubes 1084 and
London ESB (I forget the number). Both were the same cost and both are
advertised to contain the same number of cells in each package. It's
important to note also that the yeast had been shipped by mail and it took 1
week to be delivered.

The XL Packs were very good but I would still do a starter, at least 1 step
on brew day. I pitched the first Tube and the first smack pack without
starters.  All of my worts are aerated very well.

The XL Pack of 3068 was fermenting vigorously within 24 hours. The Tube of
1084 took 48 hours to show signs of fermentation.

Two weeks later I brewed with the 1056 XLPack and the London ESB Tube.  I
made starters for each on the brew day about 10 hours before I expected to
pitch. The XL Pack was popped the night before and had fully expanded.

The 1056 XLPack starter was at high krausen at pitch time.
The Starter from the tube was just beginning to make a bubble in the airlock
after 12 hours in the SG1.040 starter wort. I pitched them into wort at
SG1.060 and I have great fermentation in the 1056 beer after 24 hours while
the London ESB Tube beer is just starting to ferment vigorously after 24
hours.

I can also say that there is no way there was anywhere near as much yeast in
the tube as what I got from the XL Packs going on sight alone and cloudiness
of the wort that came from those packs.

I won't be buying Tubes in the future but the XL Packs save at least 1 step
in the starter routine which is great for me. Next I'm going to try pitching
a BOP Pack into 5 gallons and see what happens.  Wyeast claims that's enough
yeast for 10, or is it 15 gallons.  Pretty pricey though.

I think I'll will still continue to buy most of my yeasts in the 50 ml Smack
Packs and continue to do starters in two steps up to 1600ml volume and pitch
at high krausen. Doing this I commonly get good activity in ales in 8 hours.

I would think that for lagers there's no way you can get away with not doing
a large starter in 2 or 3 steps.

Just my 2 cents.

Layne Rossi
Campbell River, BC



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:03:36 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Replys

G'day All

Well the weekend was most productive.  Knocked up my Christmas Rauch Beer
and now that happily bubbling away in the fridge.  I should explain a
cultural thing a Chrissey over hear. I say this because I was utterly
facinated into what you do with the spent grain in winter.  Having only seen
snow once in my life time (and never wanting to see the sh*t again) it never
occurred to me the problems you guys have.  I would have just dumped it out
in the snow and waited to spring. This is obviously like making love on a
camel - no on!!!!!!!.

But i digress. In the heat of summer, the tradition in this country at
Chrissey is either a Bar-b mid arvo for your main meal (then to settle back
in the balmy arvo/night with a few beers), or a cold meal at dinner time of
ham.  Now whatever grub it may be, a rauch beer is the perfect beer for this
feast.  Never will there be a better opportunity to show off a more unusual
beer (after all its Christmas and you must be polite), and anyway, can any
of you lot think of a better beer to go with a smokey steak off the hot
plate, or a nice ham.

now a quick comment

From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Honey character

Perhaps I am seeing this form of staling that was described. Take
from this what you will, but I am growing increasingly more careful in how I
handle my beers at all stages; in the mash, the recirc and sparge, the boil.
______________________________

I have to but agree.  One time I thought I could I could abuse the the first
half of the brewing process (since I cant abuse SWMBO), that all that
matters was really post boil.  I have also maybe not quite seen the light,
but its certainly not pitch black either.

and

From: Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Sugar and Water

Now about sugar. Does it really make a difference whether I use cane sugar,
belgian candi sugar (very expensive), brown sugar, invert sugar,
cornsyrup...? The recipe (kindly shared by Jay Spies the other day) calls
for cane sugar but I can't help wonder if spending a few extra bucks on the
candi sugar would make a big difference. Has there been any experimentation
on this or is it all "opinion" out there?

______________________

Yes there's an opinion all right. (most strange that).  Now being the DIY
king of homebrewing I have also experimented with home made candy sugar.
(yes candy sugar in the deep North is harder to find than a satisfied
woman.- have to keep it clean now, thanks pat) Anyway I have made my own
attempts at candy sugar, and am very pleased with the results.  One effect
of making it, was that it produced a nice 'fine lace'.  It seems that the
caramelisation of the sugars helps with the head of the beer and the lace
structure.  And that nice toffey flavour you can get - yum.

speaking of Pat

From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Love that dirty water! DETROIT! You're my home town...

Look mate, if I have to clean up my bloody act so do you, I mean to say,
Love, dirt, all in water, OH ....OH.....(and yes mate, i have a beer in my
hand and a couple down the gullot)

But back to reality

From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: More Water Questions

My question isn't about chlorine/chloramine (easy, Graham)

__________________

Just as well mate.  fair dinkum, I'll be angrier than a head hunting cod
which get hairballs if you raise this one. I almost started training the
taipan with your name on it.  Be careful, playing with fire will get you
burnt. (or bitten).

Shout

Graham

Oh
Scott, you did very well, passports on the way for your comments. Everything
for a price, even compliments. You can come up and watch those silly billy's
do that survivor thing. They come next week.









Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 06:18:40 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Albany area pub

Another Albany-area pub that was not mentionned is the 
Original Saratoga Pub and Brewery...north of Albany about 1/2 
hour...perhaps 45 min.
 ..Darrell
- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:09:20 -0400
From: "Jim Hagey" <hagey at attglobal.net>
Subject: Alert! Lurker decloaking asking beer related question!

Hi all,

After many months of standing in the shadows enjoying the byplay and
information offered by the many varied participants in this forum, it has
become necessary for me to decloak and ask a beer related question.

I recently (15 days ago) brewed the biggest, baddest barley wine that I have
ever attempted.  I have been experimenting with the Lallemand (DanStar) dry
yeasts and wanted to put Nottingham to an extreme test.  Using the following
recipe:

20 lbs Shreier two row pale malt
20 lbs Breiss two row vienna malt
3 lbs cara-pils malt
3 lbs 60 L crystal malt
 .5 lbs chocolate malt
2.5 sticks cinnamon (broken) (last half hour)
2 Madagascar Bourbon vanilla beans (last half hour)
3 oz Northern Brewer (8.6%AA) FWH

I mashed the grains at 154 F for 70 minutes (until it passed the iodine
test) in 15 gallons of water.  The mash ph was 5.3.  Then raised the
temperature to 170 for mashout (20 minutes of direct fire).  I then drained
the tun into the boil kettle netting about 6.5 gallons of sweet liquor - no
sparge.  The boil was very vigorous, 5/6 covered for 90 minutes.  This
yielded almost exactly 5 gallons into my fermenter after chilling (65F). I
took the SG.  My hydrometer is calibrated to read up to 1.200.  That mark
floated about 3/4 of an inch above the level of the liquid in the flask!
According to Promash, assuming my normal system efficiency of 75%, this
would result in a SG of 1.243.  I rehydrated three packets of Nottingham
yeast according to the package directions and pitched it in.  I may want to
add that I used a 14.5 gallon Italian demi-jon as a fermenter for this as I
did not want to be responsible for the possible clean up that would be
required by using a smaller vessel.  After about three hours, there was, as
can be imagined, vigorous activity.  This lasted for eleven days.  The
airlock was still putting out about 3-4 bubbles per minute after 14 days
when I racked it into a secondary.

Finally, the question!  I took the S.G. again at this point 1.030!!!!  Could
the Nottingham really have survived all that alcohol?  From a 1.234 to a
1.030 implies an ABV of over 28%!!!  Jethro, are you out there?  Is this
possible??  Am I living above an abhoration of the gravitational field?  Has
my driveway brewhouse slid headlong into the twilight zone? There do not
appear to be any signs of other organisms living in this brew.  It has quite
a strong alcohol burn but the rest of the flavor profile is exactly as I
thought it would be (this one will take a while to be ready for
consumption).  Speaking of burn, I was so startled by the SG reading that I
didn't think to see if the stuff would burn before drinking what was in the
flask.

Brew on,
Jim



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:27:36 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: How is Zymurgy / AHA these days?

Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com> asks:

- -----------------------------------
How is it these days?
How is the AHA?

I'd be particularly interested in hearing from folks who may
have similarly dropped their membership, but then changed their
minds and picked it back up again.
- ---------------------------------------

Well, I wasn't a member because every time I thought about joining, another
post popped up condemning the AHA.  However, last spring, just before the
election (AHA election not any government election) I decided to join.  I
reviewed the list of candidates for the board and decided I could do more
to solve any problems by voting for certain of these candidates than
sitting on the sidelines.  I was quite satisfied with the final board and
if they can control the direction of the AHA, I think things should
improve.  Right now the jury is still out.

 
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



Return to table of contents


Date: 17 Oct 2000 17:44:21 -0000
From: "Saptarshi The Dude Guha" <sapsi at rediffmail.com>
Subject: Non hop beers

Dear Beer Lovers!
I want to make ginger beer, but dont have acces to malt, 
or hops in Delhi,India. Could someone please send me a 
recipie which does not need these, also you mad send non 
ginger beer, or antyhing will do, but the same 
consraints apply.

Many thanks
Sapsi
please send to spitzi at beer.com




_____________________________________________________
Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at
http://bol.rediff.com

For fabulous shopping deals visit: http://www.rediff.co.in/shopping/index.html





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:44:13 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Thoughts on Grain Storage/Cider

I store my grain in my basement brewery in Rubbermaid lidded totes that
others have mentioned.  My brewewry is equipped with a fully functionl
dehumidifyer that drains to a floor drain.  Moisture is the worst enemy of
grain.  

I have, in the form of my beer fridge with through-the-body beer faucets, a
built-in moisture monitoring device.  Since I tend to have a draft or two
most everyday, I check my moisture monitoring devices daily for moisture.
When I see moisture in the form of beads of condensation forming on my
faucets, I know it's time to crank the dehumidfyer to a dryer setting.
Works for me.

IMO, I think that it's preferable to store malts under more stable
temperatures than that offered by an unheated garage.  The daily
temperature fluctuations prevalent this time of year (also spring) are
prone to condensate being deposited.    Above ground fuel tanks, including
your car's, can produce condensate that condenses inside.  That's why the
recommendtion to keep your fuel tank topped off in winter months.  It would
seem to me this same thing could happen inside your malt storage
containers/bags.

I do feel that some malts may be stored sucessfully for years.  I have done
it.  However, I do feel there is some loss of freshness, especially
concerning highly kilned specialty malts.  There is a loss of aromatics.  I
have experimented with oven roasting to try to regain some of the lost
aromatics.  It does seem to work.    I do try to avoid overstocking of
particular malts to maintain turnover.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

BTW, I put together a batch of apple cider last night.  When you run low on
time and brew, it's something quick and easy.

Here's the scoop:

Autumnal Amber Cider

5 gals. Hillcrest Orchard Apple Cider (Local GA orchard)
2 teasp. yeast nutrient
1 lb. lt. brown sugar
12 fl. oz. molasses
2 pkts. Nottingham ale yeast

I placed one Campden tablet in each gallon jug of cider for 48 hrs. in
advance.  

Heat 1 qt. water and boil 15 min.  Divide boiled water: 1 c. to sterile
Mason jar (place in water bath to cool to tepid), rest left in sauce pan.
Stir in sugar/molasses and yeast nutrient to dissolve in hot water.  

Pour molasses/sugar/nutrient mixture into fermenter.  By the time I did
this, the temp was still warm but not hot.  I did not worry about HSA.  The
temperature was not hot enough to set the pectin.  This would result in a
cider that would be difficult to clear.  On top of this, I poured, with
splashing, the room temp. cider from the jugs to aerate the must.  I
rehydrated the yeast in tepid water in the Mason jar for 10 min. and pitched.

Specs.:  O.G. pre-sugar/molasses 1.045
         O.G. post sugar/molasses 1.056
	  pH: 3.8 - 4.0 (measured with litmus paper)
	  color: nice amber

My readings suggested 3.8 to 4.0 pH was about ideal, so I left well enough
alone.  Otherwise, adjust with acid blend.

Sorry for the non-beer part of this post, but now is the season.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewery and Home Remodeling (almost finished)
Murrayville, GA







Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:37:02 -0400
From: Will Fields <will at gfarch.net>
Subject: Five Star 

I have two small bottles of Five Star Star San acid sanitizer and had some 
questions regarding its use.  First I noticed the old but unopened bottle 
is much lighter in color than the new bottle.  Is this a significant 
factor?  That is to say does this product have a shelf life?  Also, I was 
wondering if I could use this product like an iodine type of sanitizer and 
keep a batch made up and use it on an as-needed basis, a convenience I find 
useful in my brewhouse.  Once this stuff is mixed up do I have to use it 
fairly soon and discard it straight away?  If not is there a test available 
to determine it's efficacy over time?  I guess I could ask the same 
questions of the Star San PBW.  Can I re heat the PBW and re use it and if 
so when does the product become ineffective?

Thanks for any help regarding the use of these products.

Will Fields
South Hamilton, MA



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:41:50 -0400
From: "Joye & Kevin Sinn" <skinnrz at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Stupid Brewer Tricks

Well, I pulled a bonehead move tonite.  I racked my Koelsch-Style to the
secondary and the airlock bung would not stay seated.  Now I know better
than to try and force it or else it might pop into the carboy.  Well, I
tried to force it and it popped into the carboy.  I almost retrieved it
(another story in itself) but ultimately it sank to a beery grave.

The bung was sanitized so I'm not worried about infection. BUT, I am
somewhat concerned that I'm going to have Rubber Koelsch.  Will the bung
impart any off flavours?  I'm assuming the worst, but I'm sure some of you
out there have performed some of your own Stupid Brewer Tricks and can give
me some answers.  Ideas for removing the damned thing when the carboy is
empty are welcome too.

Thanks for your help, and try to keep the laughter down.

 -Kevin in Essex



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:57:50 GMT
From: "Steve Schultz" <steven_schultz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bottles vs. Kegs 

At a recent meeting of our homebrew club, Stephen Demczuk (partner/founder) 
brought in a keg of The Raven Beer. Free draft beer is always a treat, and 
this turned out to be a very tasty lager indeed. (Go to 
<http://www.ravenbeer.com/home.html> for further information.) He also 
brought some bottled beer, and as always seems to be the case, it didn't 
taste quite as good as the draft beer, even though he said it was the same 
beer. I asked him why, and he said one reason was the size of the air gap in 
the bottle compared to the keg, i.e., in a bottle perhaps 10% of the space 
is air, but in a keg that percentage is much less. If that is so, then would 
filling a bottle nearly to the top improve the taste of the beer? Has anyone 
tried this? Thanks in advance

Steve Schultz


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



Return to table of contents

---