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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  BJCP Exam Study Links ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Bottles vs Kegs (Ant Hayes)
  Strange Brew is now less strange (Jacob Jacobsen)
  re-Five Star ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  All-Grain Attempt (cmmundt)
  How is Zymurgy / AHA these days? ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Stoppers on the Wrong End of the Neck (mohrstrom)
  Star San and rubber Koelsch questions ("Richard Sieben")
  Schreier's "Euro" malts (Joel Plutchak)
  5 Star products ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  retrieving bungs from carboys ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Water and Electricity usage measurements ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Rubber Stoppers in the Carboy ("Kevin Jones")
  In Line Oxygenation (Brad Miller)
  Re: Honey character (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: mashing too cool explains 50% efficiency? (Spencer W Thomas)
  RE: Star San ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: Stupid Brewer Trick #2873-d: (bung pow maneuver) (GPEYCO)
  foam (RIPIC80)
  Palm Springs (Barry Wertheimer)
  tko software (Paul Kerchefske)
  Rye in Pre Pro Lager? (alastair)


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:05:11 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: BJCP Exam Study Links

At the request of some friends studying for the BJCP exam, I put together the
following set of links -
http://hbd.org/hogtown/bjcp/bjcp.html

I'd appreciate feed back. It's a work in progress, I'm going to add to it (and
maybe remove some of the links) so any suggestions or links to add would be
appreciated. I'd like to get it to the point where it would be a useful study
tool, if it can help anyone prepare for the exam that would be great.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:23:10 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Bottles vs Kegs

Steve Schultz related, regarding beer at a recent meeting, "He also 
brought some bottled beer, and as always seems to be the case, it didn't 
taste quite as good as the draft beer, even though he said it was the same 
beer."

I regularly keg and bottle beer from the same batch. The kegged beer goes
through a 1 micron filter and is then force carbonated. It is stored at
+-4C. This beer is great for half glasses and for parties.

The bottled beer is decanted into primed bottles, left at >20C for a week
and then stored at +-2C until drinking time, when it is raised to the
appropriate serving temperature. (I don't leave head space in excess of
30mm)

I find my bottled beer considerably better than my kegged beer. I have more
control over the carbonation levels, the beer stores better - I am now
drinking my lagers made in December 1999, and flavours seem more rounded. 

I have experienced problems with bottled beer stored at room temperature,
including autolysis; souring; oxidation and gushing. But cold storage
largely eliminates these.

Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 04:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jacob Jacobsen <beermakerdk at yahoo.com>
Subject: Strange Brew is now less strange

First of all, Thank You to everyone that responded to
my original post.  Apparently this thing has happened
to lots of brewers.

The place I live has what appears to be very good
brewing water (neutral pH, not many ions or compounds
of any sort, really).  It may have been processed in
association with our local world-famous brewery... but
that's another story.  When I made the two batches of
"medicinal" beer (yes, both batches are now clear), I
was using a sterilizer based on alkaline salts (H2SO4,
I think).  For these two batches, I washed and then
"sterilized" a 5 gallon nylon/plastic container (which
originally contained only God knows what, but has long
been used to contain potable water).  I pre-boiled the
water the night before and after it cooled, put the
water in this "sterilized" container.  It turned out
that something like a week passed before I was able to
brew up, so the water sat in the jug for that time. 
(Hey, it's sterile isn't it!)  Because of this
"medicinal" problem, I have since quit storing boiled
water.  Our water does not have a high level of
chlorine;  you can't smell it or taste it.  (I have
made kit beers right out of the tap and they turned
out as well as you could expect.) Whatever it was, it
seems to have been related to storing the boiled water
in the jug, and the probable infection therein.  The
good news is that bottles here a cheap and I'll never
throw away another "medicinal" batch. (I'll also never
use that jug for brew water again.)

I do have something of offer:  Not having a wort
cooler, I bought a plastic trash can large enough to
fit my stainless 8 gal. boiler into.  I drilled four
holes such that the boiler will just float in water
when filled with 5 gallons (of whatever beer gravity).
To use this $10 wonder, I place it in the tile utility
room (with drain), half-fill it with water, set my
boiler into it from the burner and insert the hose
under the boiler and turn the water on.  The cold
water will take the wort to 110 deg. F in less than 20
mins. It's a kluge, but it surely works.  This works a
bit better as my boiler has a bucket-style handle,
rather than two fixed handles on either side.

Again, thanks to all of you for helping.  I was up
until 3 Am this morning brewing some California
Common. I don't expect it to be medicinal.

Jake


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:03:07 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re-Five Star

There were a few ?s about Star-San; the color changes because the 
supply of materials changes, sometimes it's pale yellow, orangish
or brown. This is not oxidation, it is buying from the lowest bidder
that may color their product differently. To test your Star-San use
your pH meter or narrow range pH strips. If the solution is at 2 or
slightly under you are in good shape. If the solution is restored
to pH 2 with a few drops of concentrate Star-San it is usable. If
after many uses it becomes cloudy with "dirt" it should be discarded,
it will still sanitize but the "dirt" load with deposit on the sanitized
surfaces; and what's the point of sanitizing a dirty surface.
Reheating PBW will eliminate the "active oxygen" with a slight
reduction in the efficacy. Probably no big deal if you are scrubbing off
beer stone from your kettle. If you use PBW a lot have you considered
"Straight-A"? from my experience in the homebrew environment it is
as effective as PBW, but at a more frugal pricing, 8 oz Straight-A for the
price of 1 packet (2 oz?) of PBW. 

N.P. (Del) Lansing


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:21:58 -0400
From: cmmundt at AircraftBraking.com
Subject: All-Grain Attempt

Greetings All,

     I have been reading and learning about how to do things, and then the
next day why that method is not the best way, on the HBD for a while.  I
enjoy a good, intelligent debate that occurs here so often.  So, after
brewing extract and grain for a while I decided it was time to step up and
go all-grain.  I decided that on Sunday October 8 I had nothing else to do
so I would attempt the all-grain experience.  The recipe I chose was an AG
version of a DME and grain recipe for an Imperial Stout that SWMBO really
enjoyed.  In fact, this beer opened her eyes to stouts and porters.

     Back to the beer.  As this was my first time at all-grain, I had been
planning it out for about two weekend was really looking forward to the
event.  Boy, I certainly did not know what I was getting into.  My mash pH
was 5.3 so I added 1.5 tbls of gypsum to balance the dark grains.  I chose
the 40-60-70 (degrees C) step infusion suggest by Fix.  Everything seemed
to be going well until I had to step up to 60 C.  The water I was using was
not hot enough to raise the temp to 60, so I added a little bit more water
thinking it would not hurt anything.  I realized I was wrong when the extra
water over ran my mash-tun and spilled all over the floor.  So I ended up
with about 1 quart of water/grain mixture all over the floor.  And then the
follies really started.  It seemed to be one disaster after another during
the entire process.  I even had problems during the sparge, the tubing got
knocked and fell out of the boil kettle allowing about 1 quart of wort to
drain all over the floor.  At this point I was frustrated, discouraged, and
swearing like never before and put the tubing into a different kettle than
the boil kettle.  I finally got enough wort into the kettle instead of the
floor and started the boil.  Of course, in all this confusion I only put
about 5 gallons into the boil instead of 6.5 that I wanted because the
other kettle containing the 1.5 gallons I dumped because it was in my way.
During this whole fiasco I had forgot the one main axiom of brewing.  Relax
and have a homebrew.  My sympathetic wife chimed in during the boil, as I
was cleaning the kitchen, "Boy, that all-grain sure looks like a lot of
work".  I just mumbled into my beer (the extract version of the mess I was
making).  I chilled the wort and pulled a sample for a gravity check. SG
1.068 and my goal was 1.074.  That gave me a 60% efficiency instead of 65%
that I was hoping to get, despite my bungling.

     Last Sunday, I racked into the secondary and had a little taste.  It
was the best tasting beer I have tasted at the racking stage.  In fact,
SWMBO told me to bottle it immediately so we (she) could drink it that much
faster.  My faith in all-grain has been restored.

     One question before I go if anybody can answer it through the laughter
I hear.  What is the easiest/best way to transfer the grains and wort to my
lauter-tun from the mash-tun?  My mash-tun is a 8-9 gallon cooler with a
drain spigot and my lauter-tun is based on Phil's Lauter-tun.

     Chad Mundt,
     cmmundt at aircraftbraking.com
     If there is interest, I will post the both the all-grain and extract
recipes in a following HBD.



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:52:06 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: How is Zymurgy / AHA these days?

Alan McKay asked about the AHA & Zymurgy:
>How is it these days?
>How is the AHA?

I joined last year after "watching from afar" through Zymurgy.  I stay out
of the politics in any organization, so I can't comment about that.  But I
will say that I'm pleased to see some HBD participation on the Board.  Maybe
there will be a bit more democracy now, then when you were a member.  From
reading Zymurgy though, I'd say that the AHA has organized a lot of events
that seem to go quite well.  People who actually attended them might say
otherwise, but it looks like there are good speakers and a lot of fun.

I joined mainly for the Zymurgy subscription & to support their charter of
advancing the homebrewing hobby.  Noble, ain't I?!?  Occasionally you'll get
a good article like the one this dude published on Classic American
Pilsners.  Now *THAT* was a good article.  In fact, it was the only one I
read from that issue in it's entirety.  It gave me a bit of the history
which sets the style, a description of the methods, formulation of
ingredients and a good idea on how to brew one myself.  I'd love to see
another article published by this guy - Cheers Jeff!

Then there are the articles on how to brew beer using ox dung, papyrus and
beetles, like the Ancient Sumerians did.  I don't care.  I want articles on
how *I* can brew beer... in modern times... with modern equipment... with
modern ingredients.  (all right, I made that one up, so as not to offend any
particular author's hard work)  But now we come to the article in a previous
issue, which I think was on barleywine, but the point of the article is lost
due to ramblings of  it's ficticious foul-mouthed characters.  Now I can
curse like a sailor, but there is a time & place for everything - that
wasn't it.  In this case I really don't care if I offend the author because
the article sucked.  It had more to do with the author's poor attempt at
humor than it had to do with beer.  I could go on about this, but I'll just
stop here.

So if you're a beer aficionado - or just plain old beer snob - then the
magazine is worth it.  It's got articles on brewpubs, microbreweries, all
the stuff for people who like to *TASTE* beer.  Also, if you're up to
meeting new people in the hobby and want to get together for seminars or
talks with noteworthy people, beer tasting and general frolicking (again
with much beer), then I also hear that this is the membership for you.  But
if you don't care about all that and just want to find a technical resource
that can come up to par with BT - look elsewhere.  Zymurgy is targeted to a
very diverse readership within the beer lover's community and cannot provide
the same focus on a continuous basis that us BT-loving techophiles enjoy.


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato





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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:17:20 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com
Subject: Stoppers on the Wrong End of the Neck



Kevin (and others) have had their stoppers wind up on the inside of their
carboys:
> Ideas for removing the damned thing when the carboy is
> empty are welcome too.

Of course, this has never happened to me (I just *look* stupid ...)  I
would think, though, that one of those nifty tools the paint stores give
out - with a hook on one end for removing paint can lids (and a loop on the
other for removing bottle caps)could possibly be very useful for stopper
removal.  If I were ever to find myself in this situation (perhaps from
some mental lapse brought on by the brown-bottle variant of Alzheimer's), I
would add a bit of plain water for lubrication and invert the carboy.  Then
one could tease the stopper so that the narrow end was in the neck.
Hooking the tool through the hole and pulling straight down should do the
trick.

I would further hypothesize that a natural rubber stopper soaked in
fermenting mead will turn an interesting shade of orange, but this is
purely speculative.


Mark in Kalamazoo





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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:38:08 -0500
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: Star San and rubber Koelsch questions

Will Fields asked about re-using star san and PbW, I do it all the time with
no ill effects.  I will use PBW until it becomes discolored, and then
discard.  I understand that Star San is good as long as it is at a certain
pH level, but I don't know what it is off hand.  What I generally do is
clean a fermentor with PBW and let it sit until I have the secondary
fermentor ready to be cleaned and just transfer it into there.  I will let
it sit for days since it doesn't clean as quickly cold as it does warm, but
I imagine you could rewarm it if you wanted to.  My next step is the Star
San, I will also pour it from fermentor to fermentor and then finally into a
corny keg.  In fact I have one corny that has a bad in-post so I use that
for my Star San 'dispenser' for any time when I need a quick splash of star
san.  I follow the same procedure with my kegs, but I usually wait until I
have a few to clean at one time so I can pass the material from keg to keg.
the advantage to pushing the Star San out of a keg with CO2, is that when I
am done, it is ready to receive beer without need to purge air.

Kevin got his rubber stuck in the beer again!  I have pushed rubber stoppers
into the beer two or three times, assuming you are using those white rubber
stoppers, they don't seem to impart any flavors to the beer.  don't worry
about it, just get another stopper.  I finally quit doing the push it into
the carboy thing when I started putting the airlock into the stopper first,
then insert the stopper w/ airlock into the carboy.  I guess you can claim
that the beer is rubber stopper aged....

Rich Sieben
Rubber stopper beer brewery
Island Lake, IL




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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:54:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Schreier's "Euro" malts


   Anybody have direct experience using Schreier's new-ish
"Euro" malts?  I'll be buying a bag each of the Pils and Vienna
to evaluate (love this hobby!), but wouldn't mind hearing
some opinions while I wait for them to arrive.

(Specs on the malts at <http://www.schreiermalt.com/techcenter/>.) 
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Frequently evaluating grain, hops, and yeast in East-central Illinois



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:20:01 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: 5 Star products

Will asks about shelf life and reuse of  PBW and Star San.

The color of Star San varies from batch to batch but in no way affects its
efficacy. I am not aware of any shelf life.
You can definitely keep a batch made up and use it as you need.  It is not
affected by light, exposure to air or heat.  As long as the pH remains below
3 it  is effective. If the pH rises above 3 Star San goes cloudy. You can
refresh or replace it then.  It's best to mix it with reverse osmosis water
or distilled water if you are planning on storing it.  The clarity of the
Star San is a good indicator of its efficacy.

PBW, conversely, needs to be used right away. Do not mix it in in advance.
Do not reheat and re-use it.  It is unstable, once the free oxygen
dissipates it is ineffective.  For more affordable daily cleaning, you may
wish to consider B-Brite. It's cheaper and much the same as PBW, although I
still prefer PBW for crucial cleaning, like inside CF chillers, or  hard
cleaning, like carbonized brew pot residue.

hope this helps.

Stephen Ross
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:23:52 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: retrieving bungs from carboys

Kevin asks about retrieving bungs from carboys.

Relax, the bung won't give any off flavours, and will be easy to retrieve.

After you rack, and rinse the carboy, your bung is sitting in the bottom.
Put the carboy on its side, and let a thin tea towel or handkerchief flop
down inside the neck (hang on to the cloth!) tip the carboy so the bung
rolls on to the cloth.  When you pull out the cloth, the bung will come too.
It may be a little tight squeeze through the neck, which is why thin cloth
is best.

We've done it too.

cheers,

Stephen Ross
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:30:56 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Water and Electricity usage measurements



The table below contains some data I collected by recording the readings of
my water meter and electric meter both before I start brewing and after I
finished.  I hope it doesn't get garbled.  I didn't use any tabs and kept
it under 75 columns.


I use electricity for all my brewing heat.  

All batches were 5 gallons nominal.  

In general, the water usage excludes the 8 to 10 gallons for sparging
because I typically draw that the day before.  However, it does include at
least a few toilet flushes. 


                               <-----Water Gal ------><Electricity kWh>
Batch Style        Date     Day    Start   End  Used   Start   End Used
54    Amer PA     02/27/00  Sun.   77220  77310   90    5677  5692   15
55    Amer PA     03/28/00  Tue.   86160  86240   80    6443  6456   13
56    Belgium Ale 03/31/00  Fri.   87319  87544  225    6558  6573   15
57    Porter      05/19/00  Fri.   98618  98673   55    NA    NA     NA
58    Weizen      05/20/00  Sat.   98937  99269  332    7621  7642   21
59    Amer PA     06/09/00  Fri.  105537 105602   65    8151  8163   12
60    Weizen      07/31/00  Mon.  122806 123020  214   10699 10704    5
61    Amer PA     09/14/00  Thu.  134867 134940   73   10628 10640   12
62    Stout       10/15/00  Tue.  144467 144549   82   11409 11421   12


I would exclude batches 56, 58, and 60 from the water measurements because
SWMO probably was running the clothes washer or the kids were showering.
The remaining average out to about 74 gallons per batch.

For the electricity measurements,  I would exclude batch 58 for similar
reasons.  I would also exclude batch 60 because it isn't credible.  Then
the electricity usage averages out to about 13 KWH.

So 74 Gallons of water and 13 KWH per 5 gallon brew session. What does the
collective think?

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY









































                                                                           
           Page 1



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:18:41 -0500
From: "Kevin Jones" <mrkjones at mindspring.com>
Subject: Rubber Stoppers in the Carboy

Joye & Kevin Sinn,

>I am somewhat concerned that I'm going to have Rubber Koelsch.  Will the
bung
>impart any off flavours?

Your beer is ruined!  To dispose of it, bottle then send to Kevin Jones, 400
Noel Lane.........Just Kidding!  The stopper will not cause a problem!  95%
of brewers have made the same mistake...and the other 5% are liars.   As for
removing it, two words Coat Hanger.

Drink Better Beer!
Kevin Jones




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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:53:41 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: In Line Oxygenation

	I was wondering if anyone knows of a good way to install a 
sparge stone in line out of a CF chiller.  I'm sure I could 
mechanically do it but I'm not sure the best way to rig it so that 
beer wouldn't get back in the line.  I know that the big boys do it 
and was hoping  that  somebody has an idea.  Thanks in advance.

Brad


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:18:16 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Honey character 

Looks like nobody's answered (yet).

A honey aroma can be produced by 2-3 pentanediol.  This is the "one
more carbon" relative of diacetyl, and is produced by some yeast.  I'm
not up on the biochemistry that leads to this product, but it is
possible that the conditions inside your bottles are conducive to
producing it.  

Can anyone help with this?

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:39:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: mashing too cool explains 50% efficiency? 

I check my thermos by a two step process.

1. Check low point.  Make a mixture of ice and water.  Stir well.
Submerge thermometer in mixture, and swirl very gently (especially if
it's a glass thermo!)  Should read 0C / 32F.

2. Check high point.  Boil plain water.  If you're at sea level, the
thermo should read 100C / 212F.

If you're using a glass thermo, you just have to live with its
inherent inaccuracies.  If you're using a dial thermo, you can usually
adjust it by turning the "nut" on the back of the dial.  Since you're
interested in "hot" temps, I'd adjust the boiling point.

After adjustment, check the other end point as above.  If it's right
on, then your thermo is probably pretty close over the range.  If it's
not, then at least you'll have some idea of whether it's probably
reading high or low over the rest of the range.

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:46:44 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Star San

Will Fields asks about my favorite sanitizer:

> I have two small bottles of Five Star Star San acid sanitizer
> and had some
> questions regarding its use.  First I noticed the old but
> unopened bottle
> is much lighter in color than the new bottle.  Is this a significant
> factor?  That is to say does this product have a shelf life?

Are you sure it's the older bottle that is lighter in colour? I noticed my
new bottle was much lighter and was told by Paddock Wood that they had
changed their formulation to a lighter color.

> Also, I was
> wondering if I could use this product like an iodine type of
> sanitizer and
> keep a batch made up and use it on an as-needed basis, a
> convenience I find
> useful in my brewhouse.  Once this stuff is mixed up do I
> have to use it
> fairly soon and discard it straight away?

My understanding of iodine based sanitizers is that you can NOT keep a batch
made up, they lose their strength too quickly. However, Star San is very
good for storing, especially in a sealed container. I keep a batch for a few
weeks in a covered pail with no ill effects.

  If not is there a
> test available
> to determine it's efficacy over time?

Check its pH with a reliable and calibrated pH meter. If it's under 2.9,
it's OK.

Cheers,
Brian



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:17:08 EDT
From: GPEYCO at cs.com
Subject: Re: Stupid Brewer Trick #2873-d: (bung pow maneuver)

In a message dated 10/17/00 9:18:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, "Joye & Kevin 
Sinn" <skinnrz at sympatico.ca> writes:

>  Subject: Stupid Brewer Tricks
>  
>  Well, I pulled a bonehead move tonite.  
>  I racked my Koelsch-Style to the
>  secondary and the airlock bung would not stay seated.  Now I know better
>  than to try and force it or else it might pop into the carboy.  Well, I
>  tried to force it and it popped into the carboy.  I almost retrieved it
>  (another story in itself) but ultimately it sank to a beery grave.
>  
>  The bung was sanitized so I'm not worried about infection. BUT, I am
>  somewhat concerned that I'm going to have Rubber Koelsch.  Will the bung
>  impart any off flavours?  I'm assuming the worst, but I'm sure some of you
>  out there have performed some of your own Stupid Brewer Tricks and can give
>  me some answers.  Ideas for removing the damned thing when the carboy is
>  empty are welcome too.
>  
>  Thanks for your help, and try to keep the laughter down.
>  
>   -Kevin in Essex

Kevin, this has got to be one of the most commonly performed numbers in 
brewing. Although, now that I think about it this may only be a local 
favorite.
Others will probably step in with research results from chemical analysis and 
quantum physics. This could begin another arcane debate lasting months. I on 
the other hand can only offer the observation that the batch I brewed did not 
"seem" to suffer any ill effects. I cannot however prove the lack of any 
micro-rubber particles to the ppm.
I was using a reasonably new stopper for my experiment.

Don't fret about getting it out. Continue brewing as you normally would. 
After cleaning, drain the carboy. Fold a clean dry towel diagonally. Insert 
one corner of the towel into the carboy. Insert enough of the towel into the 
carboy to create a sort of cloth funnel inside  the carboy. Maneuver carboy 
until the stopper falls into the cloth funnel. Pull the towel out and the 
stopper will come with it. 
I think I picked this one up here. Thinking it was a stupid thing to do I 
never dreamed I'd need to use it. I might have waited a month before taking 
my newfound knowledge for a test drive.
I would like to hear about the many unsuccessfully attempted to fish it out. 
This knowledge could be put in a faq somewhere. Coathangers, fishing lines 
(and poles), fireplace pokers; I'm sure it would include many brilliantly 
conceived solutions, all more potentially damaging to the brew than the 
stopper that now sits on the bottom of your carboy.
So near yet so far away it somehow managed to fall in clear view just on the 
other side of that thin glass barrier. You're sure it is taunting you, the 
airlock hole seems to be looking at you no matter where you are in the room. 
Kind of like something out of a Poe story. Don't let it keep you up at night. 
Sleep soundly with the knowledge that when you get that little %# at (&# out of 
there it's going directly into the food dispose-all. ;-{)>

Greg


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:49:51 EDT
From: RIPIC80 at aol.com
Subject: foam


  Just a quick question....  That foam that floats on the top of the wort 
during the boil is protein, right?  So since it seems to be the protein that 
one doesn't want (since grain brewing, the protein rest causes much more 
foam), does any harm come by skimming it off, since I have had problems with 
hops not mixing in well, and floating with the foam?  I have done it before 
w/ extract beers, and it didn't seem to do any harm, but I've never read 
about it, either in brew books or on this sight.  Any clues you can give 
would be appreciated

Frank


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Wertheimer <bmwerth at yahoo.com>
Subject: Palm Springs

Greetings,

I will be in the Palm Springs area for a conference
Sun-Tues.  I would appreciate recommendations for good
beer tasting.  Also, if there are HBDers in the area
that might want to grab a pint ...

Cheers,

=====
Barry Wertheimer
Palo Alto, CA

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kerchefske <wadworth6 at yahoo.com>
Subject: tko software

I have Brewers Workshop and want to put it on a new
computer. Does anyone know if the guy that wroye it is
still around and what his phone number is? I need to
get the SECRET code to use this program. PK

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:45:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: alastair <alastair at odin.he.net>
Subject: Rye in Pre Pro Lager?

I've just become the proud owner of 2# of flaked rye and was thinking of
throwing it in my next batch (pre pro lager from Wyeast 2035). It will make
up about 10% of the grist and I'll be using Northern Brewer and Cascades
 at  about 35 IBU.

Sounds like a good idea? I'm a rye virgin, so I'm not sure what the results
will turn out like. Has anyone done this sort of brew before? I've seen some
ale recipes, but no lager type beers. I was planning on something flaked in
it (corn or wheat), so the rye may be a sign ;)

Alastair


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