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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
   (Steve Lacey)
  Swedish porter yeast (TOLLEY Matthew)
  I'm brewin' in the seven-ties... (Brad McMahon)
  re: David Humes ... The Headless Weizen Strikes Again ("Stephen Alexander")
  Need corn ? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re:  Headless Weizen ("scott")
  chillin' question: CAP/Pre-prohibition Pils (darrell.leavitt)
  Neoprene as Lauter Insulation? ("Warren White")
  Lager pitching temps ("Dean Fikar")
  Re: The Headless Weizen Strikes Again (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Mexican Beer (jal)
  re:  Ball valve for Gott ("Kensler, Paul")
  Storing grain / keg line length ("Drew Avis")
  RE: Mexican Beer (Kelly)
  Dixie Cup Results ("Bev D. Blackwood II")
  Failed experiment ("Gregory M. Remake")
  RE: Drew, get thee to a punnery! ("Brian Lundeen")
  Protein rests and Headless wheat ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  galvanic corrosion, 3068 vs. 1056 ("Czerpak, Pete")
  North Eastern Beer Competition #5 Western MA (Jim Wallace)
  Galvanic/electrolytic corrosion ("Timmons, Frank")
  Re: Mexican ingredients ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day ("Gary Glass")
  Krausening Lager ("Max Brandenberger")
  Hops on Pergola ("Mark Ellis")
  Cutting the tops out of kegs? ("Mark Ellis")
  Need Kick-butt Winter Warmer recipe (Jaxson28)
  Chiller Survey / Mash Tun Valve (Ken Schwartz)
  Brass against Stainless Steel corrosion potential (John Palmer)
  Seeking Urquel utopia ("Scott")


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:14:38 +1100
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: 

BR Rolya wrote:
>Maybe it's a regional thing, but wanker is common in the >northeastern
US...

I can't believe how poor the grammar is getting in here. Surely you meant to
write "wankers ARE common...."   No?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Steve Lacey
Sydney


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:13:10 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Swedish porter yeast

> From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
> Is my beer runed?

It's worse than runed - it's totally futharked.

Cheers
 ...Matt...


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:06:26 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: I'm brewin' in the seven-ties...

TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au> wrote:

>At a recent book fair, I picked up an 'Australian Home Brewing Company'
>catalogue from way back in 1970.  

>The first page is filled entirely with Commonwealth law (the Beer Excise Act
>1901-1966), with definitions of mead, beer, spirits, excisable wines, and so
>on, and warns of a $200 fine for brewing beer to more than '2% proof spirit'
> - anybody know when this act was changed/repealed? 

The Beer Excise Act was repealed by the Beer Excise Repeal Act of 1968
when the powers were amalagamated under the Excise Act of 1901.
That's not the answer you were looking for - you're asking when it
became legal to homebrew here. I've spent the afternoon searching
the legal databases and can't find it. I can't find the legislation
which precludes a home brewer from requiring an excise licence.
I do know it was mid-1970's.

>The catalogue has a few ingredients I haven't heard of before - yeast in
>tablet form, 'Vierka instant hop' (a hop concentrate in dried powdered
>form), heading fluid, spruce extract (erk - wouldn't this make your beer
>taste like Pine-O-Kleen?), lauterase (for a higher yield in mashing), and
>speedase (removes a starch haze).  Are these used by 'modern' brewers?

Heading agent, lauterase and speedase are still available. I don't
use them though. I have used pectinase for melomels. Deltagen P/L
make those enzymes and are sold in little 10 mL vials at homebrew shops.

>Ah, the prices - DME was 48c per lb, or $7.50 for an 18lb bag; malted grain
>was 30c a lb, 45c for a 4oz pack of 'Ringwood Specials' hops, a 5 gallon
>fermenter was $3.25, and a bench capper was $11.95.  The Aussie dollar was
>probably double the US back then, so halve these prices for US dollars.

Never! In the 1970's before the currency was floated the US Dollar
was worth 90 Australian cents (from memory).

>Anybody make an orange stout before? :)

No, but I do know people how have a dash of orange juice with their
stout.
I've tried it and it's not too bad.

Brad McMahon
Aldgate Sth Australia


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 03:24:12 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: David Humes ... The Headless Weizen Strikes Again

Dave is having problems w/ head on his Weizen's and notes ...

>White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast

I am not familiar with this yeast but George dePiro's comments
and my own limited experience point to the fact that some
(many) weizen yeast are prone to early autolysis which
can seriously degrade heading properties.  Weizen yeast seem
to need more careful handling than most.  Still if the beer never
had good head this is an unlikely cause.

>1.   5 days before brew day prepare a 1.050 1.5L starter.

Too high an SG for a starter.  I've seen a paper measuring
viability of yeast started at various SGs and it gets pretty ugly
much above 10P.   You shouldn't even repitch yeast after
fermenting 15P wort IMO - they may be too damaged.  I'd
suggest starters around 5P-9P.

>5.   Raise in 10 min to 131F (55C) and hold for 15 min.
>      (proteinase rest)

This is the head problem and there can be little doubt.

50-55C is the a head-killing rest.  Modern
malts, even wheat malt,  typically do not require a
proteinase rest. and giving them one will certainly
impact head and body in a negative way.  I'd reserve
this rest for raw grains only.  If you need a modest
proteinase rest to prevent haze you can rest at 58-60C
where the damage is self limiting.

Narziss at Wehenstephan avoids this temp range when
using modern malts and advocates a quick step up to
58-60C from lower rests.  Fix in AoBT appears to use
hot water infusion to instantly step from mash-in
temps to 60C - past the head killing rest.

Kunze says (pp209-210), "The protein in malt is often
highly modified.  If such a malt is given a long rest at 50C(122F)
there is a risk that too much high molecular weight protein will
be degraded.  The beer then tastes empty and insipid and the
foam stability is poor.  If the malt is well modified the rest at
45C-50C(113F-122F) during mashing can be restricted or
eliminated and mashing-in temperatures of 58C to 62C
(136F-143F) selected".

Actually I'd suggest you only keep the 45C (try 43C) rest if you
really want heavy 4VG flavors.  I believe in a weizen it's better
to balance esters and 4VG, but it's a matter of taste.  You'd
probably be better off mashing in at 60C or above generally.

>5.  Since I generally do not use lower temperature rests except when
>brewing
>     with wheat, I suspect the next thing to try is to eliminate one or
both
>     of these  rests and just do a straight single infusion mash.

Your instincts are sound.  There is nothing wrong with step
mashes, but wheat malt is not the same as raw wheat and
the 55C rest generally to be avoided for well modified malts
of any grain.

==
Brewer's spurtle ?  Is that one of the sanke'mon ?
Gotta catch them all.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 04:05:33 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Need corn ?

>BIOTECH CORN PROBABLY IN FOODS
>from The Washington Post
>
>Millions of bushels of genetically engineered corn approved only for animal
>use have made their way into the human food- supply chain, officials said
>Wednesday, raising the possibility that the corn will be found in a wide
>array of foods.

The corn involved is Aventis(UK) StarLink(tm) which has a gene to produce
a protein toxic to corn borers and another which makes it immune to their
Liberty(tm) herbicide.

"Dawn of a New Age CAP" anyone ?      8^o

 -S




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:05:41 -0700
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Re:  Headless Weizen

Dave writes:

 I have never been too impressed with the head on my wheat beers,
but it seems to be getting worse.  Note that none of the other styles I brew
have this problem.  So, I have to believe it is related to ingredients or
procedure and I'm leaning towards the latter.
 Since I generally do not use lower temperature rests except when brewing
     with wheat, I suspect the next thing to try is to eliminate one or both
of these
     rests and just do a straight single infusion mash.

Any suggestions will be glady accepted.

 - --Dave

Dave, you don't say whether you keg the beer or bottle, or mention the
carbonation results of your work.  More carbonation might help.   I usually
only go with 50% wheat bill, but yours sounds sufficient.

A last straw effort would of course include the infamous syringe technique,
someone brought up here.  After pouring the beer, draw up a couple cc's of
beer, then reinject it into the beer quickly.  Watch your teeth!

Scott
Richland, Wa.










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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:26:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: chillin' question: CAP/Pre-prohibition Pils

I brewed a cap/ pre-prohibition pils (if there is a difference, then someone
please educate me based upon the recipe below) ...  on 9/19/00.
I let the temp rise near the end of the primary for the diaetyl rest...kept it
around 60F for a day, or so, then chilled for about 2 days, then siphoned
into the secondary (on 10/07/00).

A couple of days ago I decided to slowly drop the temp (WhiteLabs Pilsner-
Lager yeast #800) from the 50 F down to 40 or so...but as I did so I noticed
small white bubbles at the surface...and when chilled to 40 (or so) then 
dropped out.  Now when letting it come back up to 50 they are back.  I am
assuming that this is still the ativity of the yeast...and that if I want
the brew to be drier..that I had best let this stop on its own at the correct
fermetation temps (50-55F).  Is this correct?

By the way, any comments upon style, etc are welcome.  In going into the
seondary it tasted very good to me.

Here is the recipe:

10# Canadian 6 row
 .5# CaraPils
 1# Harina de Maiz (picked up on a trip to Puerto Rico)


9lb of the 6 row with the CaraPils in a mash at 122F for 20 min.

Maize in with 1 lb 6 row for 30 min  at  153F, then boiled this mini-mash.

Added to the main mash to boos temp to 142F  for 20 min.

Raised temp of the whole mash to 158F for 20 min.

Mash out at 170F.

1/2 oz Horizon pellets at start of 60 min boil.
another 1/2 at 30
1 oz Fuggles  at  15

First runnings were 1.076
Original Gravity was 1.06
Gravity going into seondary was 1.020

And, I forgot to mention, that I did make a starter with the WLP#800 yeast.

 ...Darrell


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:12:56 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Neoprene as Lauter Insulation?

101 uses for neoprene, (legal ones anyway).

Wotcher Folks...

I'm noticing lately that the size of the HBD in general has dropped by an 
average of about 10-12k and I haven't posted for about 3 weeks, *So* 
conventional wisdom tells me, get typing "bandwidth boy".

We bronzed Anzacs are just a tad thin on the ground at the moment. Mr. 
Sanders is in a temporary hiatus just at present because he's mulling over a 
new ISP... By all accounts his ISP has gone "belly-up" probably in the belly 
of a 12 foot saltie and was last seen being regurgitated in front of a crowd 
of bemused tourists outside the old Wyndham Meat Works (the croc was a 
former marathon swimmer). Such is the price he pays for raising the price of 
young Graham's web time. "Et Tu Brute" Mr. nasty guts ISP.

But on a happy note for you all I think I'll leave the anecdotes for his 
Northern reparte, too much Melbourne rain has left me a little waterlogged, 
my muse sadly has drowned along with my sorrows.

Back to the serious biz kidz.

I'm contemplating building a new mash/lauter tun which will have a capacity 
of about 30 litres, it will be an unheated food-grade plastic bucket.

My question being does anybody have any idea if neoprene would make a 
suitable insulation medium for this?

Down here in the land of Rising Petrol, White Goods, Interest Rates and just 
about everything else that purges one's pockets a 38 Litre Rubbermaid Cooler 
is basically hard to obtain and out of the reach of my average punter's 
budget. The wife like's the sound of the neoprene though!! hmmm.

Neoprene comes in around $12 per sq. foot at Clark Rubber (please keep your 
smutty little minds clean, they don't *actually sell rubbers), the cost of 
the bucket is nominal, the plumbing etc. I have not yet decided on, it will 
be one of 3 things;

1. Phils Phalse Bottom
2. An Ezymasher
3. A copper manifold

What rates the best for Lauter efficiency here? I currently use a Phils 
Phalse Bottom but I am open to better offers. Not that there's anything 
wrong with the PPB. All in all this whole proposition should come in *far* 
cheaper than a 38 Litre Rubbermaid (sheeez, more rubber).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Diego Lemionet writes:
Subject: chiller

Do you know if there is any conection with the soldering in my chiller =
and contaminated wort? Because of my layout, the chiller has several =
soldered joints (tin lead soldering) and I suspect this could be the =
answer. I have sanitized my chiller with every procedure available =
 -chlorine, iodofor- and keep brewing foul vinegar instead. Any =
suggestions?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Diego, I've been using an immersion chiller for quite a few years now and it 
has several soldered joints, the type of solder is unknown to me as I bought 
it already made.

I've never had one infected brew with it... Your foul vinegar is most 
probably coming from some other place.

I'd certainly strike the soldering from your list and I'd also refrain from 
trying to sanitize it with Chlorine... Very, very harmful to copper old son.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dr. Pivo is feeling better... Much akin to Frances Farmer.

(Isn't Lithium and shock therapy combined with a little tweaking of one's 
cerebal matter with a straightened coathanger quite amazing???)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

He writes;

And yes, thanks again for all the "get well cards". I am recovering
nicely. I am certainly not helped by Phil whispering obscenities in my
ear, or behaving like the waiter in "The Meaning of Life" who serves
Mister Creosote. Phil is continually prancing around me holding a can of
VB and saying: "just one teeny, tiny sip".

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Good to see the radical treatment worked on the good Doc!

And as the waiter said... (played by John Cleese from memory)
Eeeeets Waaaffeer thiiinnn and Mr Creosote then replies;

I'm ffffick pifffff offfff! ... and duly "EXPLODES"

And so shall I - Adieu and *bang*
Warren L. White, Melbourne Australia


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

P.S. Question (only Aussies will probably get this)

Dick Smith now sells a lot of his new food products at supermarkets in a bid 
to inflate our ailing economy...

He's deciding now to include safety matches in his product line-up

What do *you* think he should name them?

E.G. Australia's most popular brand of matches are Red *HEADS*.
Clue, Clue, Clue and his name "is" *DICK* Smith...

Jeez, I wouldn't have a clue ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Cryptic clue; A bloke called Richard Cranium informed me of this.

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:24:25 -0700
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Lager pitching temps

For what it's worth, I'll contribute my procedure for pitching lager yeast.
What I do is chill the wort down to the upper limits of the optimal
fermentation range for the particular yeast.  For example, my favorite lager
yeast is Wyeast 2206 which can work at temperatures up to about 58 degrees.
I simply chill the wort down to 58 degrees, pitch the yeast, and slowly
lower the temperature down to what I consider the optimal temperature for
that yeast.  In this case, it's about 48 to 50 degrees.  I'm not brave
enough to chill the wort down to below fermentation temperatures and let it
warm up during fermentation.  I think the lag time would be a bit too long
for my tastes.  My way, pitching at the upper end of the recommended
fermentation range, you avoid producing excess fusels and esters but also
get a relatively quick start to the fermentation.  I am able to produce the
kinds of lagers I like using this method.

Oh, I would not consider pitching less than a 2 qt. starter for a 5 gal.
lager of normal gravity.  For really big lagers, like a dopplebock, I always
pitch on to the yeast cake of a previous batch.   I aerate vigorously with
pure oxygen for a couple of minutes or so which seems to be a much more
important step with lagers than with ales.



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:29:48 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Headless Weizen Strikes Again

"David G. Humes" <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> is having a problem with 
the head and body of his wheat beers.  It sounds like my "John the 
Baptist Weizen" of years ago - no head and thin body.  As I think 
I've posted here before, those who paid attention in Sunday school 
will get it (right, Matt A?).

I think you've provided the clues and solution:

>4.   Dough in at 113F (45C) and hold for 30 min.
>       (combined beta-glucan and ferulic acid rest)
>5.   Raise in 10 min to 131F (55C) and hold for 15 min.
>       (proteinase rest)
<snip>
>5.  Since I generally do not use lower temperature rests except when brewing
>      with wheat, I suspect the next thing to try is to eliminate one or both
>of these
>      rests and just do a straight single infusion mash.

I'll bet if you just did a straight mash-in at your saccharification 
temperature, everything would be copacetic.  After all, so what if it 
has a protein haze - unless you're after a kristalweizen.  You could 
potentially lose some of the cloviness from skipping the 113F ferulic 
acid rest.  If you wanted to keep that rest, just go straight from it 
to your sacch. temp.  I do this sometimes with boiling water and heat 
with recirculation in my propane fired RIMs.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:46:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: Re: Mexican Beer


Matt Tolley queries the lot as to the use of Mexican ingredients.

I once brewed a chili beer (that Fred Eckhardt declined to sample upon learning 
of the featured ingredient) by dry chiliing a lightly hopped blonde ale. I 
brewed 10 gallons of 1.040 ale, and put seven Anaheim chilis (seeded and 
blanched) in one five-gallon secondary for two weeks. The beer had a pleasant 
chili flavor and almost no heat. It went very well with enchiladas.

I haven't tried other Mexican ingredients, but Iberra chocolate in a stout or 
porter sounds interesting. Could make a good Christams ale.

Jim Larsen
Cerveseria al Fresco
Omaha, NE


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:59:32 -0500
From: "Kensler, Paul" <Paul.Kensler at Cyberstar.com>
Subject: re:  Ball valve for Gott

Jim,
Its easy and cheap to make an excellent bulkhead fitting for a Gott cooler.
The key is to get one of those minikeg bungs used in the 5L German minikegs,
plus some basic brass fittings from any hardware store.  Remove the old
bulkhead fitting, including the rubber washer.  Insert the rubber bungpiece
(without the inner plastic plug) in the inside of the hole.  It's a tight
fit, so you might need to use a hammer to tap it all the way in place.
Shove (a hammer and a block of wood might help) a 3-4" length of 1/4" brass
pipe nipple through the bunghole.  Attach a 1/4" ball valve to the outside
of the pipe nipple.  To the inside, you can get any number of brass fittings
to accommodate whatever sort of manifold or false bottom you've got.  I have
a Phils Phalse Bottom, so I have a hose barb attached to the inside of the
pipe nipple, and a small length of tubing connects the hose barb on the
bulkhead to the hose barb on the Phalse Bottom.

It works great, is nearly indestructible (I've replaced the bungpiece once
in 2 years), and it is totally leakproof.  Plus, using a real metal ball
valve gives me much more control than any of the other options I've seen
(hose clamp, plastic ball valve etc.).


Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Got great Gott in Gaithersburg, MD


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 13:34:55 GMT
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Storing grain / keg line length

Brewers: I must begin by apologizing for the painful pun I inflicted on you 
all yesterday.  It was the Blanche de Chambly talking, I swear.  It will 
never happen again.  Secondly, Steve Alexander sent me some excellent 
information on humidity targets for storing grain, and I've tackled the 
problem threefold: 1) a dehumidifier is on order to keep humidity <50%; 2) 
all grain has been bagged in heavy duty garbage bags and then put in 
Rubbermaid trash cans, with another garbage bag laid between the lip and the 
lid as a vapor barrier; and 3) the rats and mice many of you warned about 
will be lured away by the blinking lights on my fancy new freezer / Johnson 
Temp controller contraption I like to call "The Freezonator".  It runs like 
a greased wombat on rollerblades.

Which brings on another question: the HBD archives are definite on the 
necessity of dispensing 15 psi kegged beer through 10' of 3/16" tubing to 
achieve a good pour.  Alan McKay has a nice write up on his site about 
kegging, and he promises to provide the calculations for determining the 
optimum length for other IDs or PSIs in the near future (nudge nudge Alan, 
the future is now...).  All I can lay my hands on at the moment is 1/4" ID 
tubing.  So how much should I use to reduce the PSI and get a good pour?  
And out of curiosity (and because Physics class is a distant, painful 
memory) how would I figure out the volume of beer in the line?

Thanks!
Drew Avis in Merrickville, Ontario
http://www.geocities.com/andrew_avis/sb/
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:46:52 -0500
From: Kelly <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: Mexican Beer

Howdy!!

There is a brew pub here just outside of NOLA in Metaire, LA...called 
Zea's.  The had a wonderful lager when they first opened.  It used roasted 
Anaheim chilies (like you would use in chile rellenos)....they used these 
in place of the finishing hops I believe....VERY tasty...a good, light 
drinkable beer.  I'm a chile head myself...and am thinking of trying a 
variation on this myself.  I'm thinking these other variations you are 
thinking of would be good...but, you just have to be careful not to let any 
of these good additives be overpowering..

Kelly
- ---------------------
You Said.....
- ------------------------------Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:12:07 +1000
 >From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
 >Subject: Mexican beer
 >Been thinking about using Mexican ingredients in brewing. A chipotle and
l>ime lager, perhaps? Any suggestions/precautions when brewing with chiles?
 >What about Iberra chocolate to give a cinnamon flavour to a stout or dark
 >ale? Anybody used fresh coriander/cilantro in a brew? Read about 'corny'
 >lagers recently - anybody tried using hominy in beer? What about
'>fortifying' a brew with tequila? Dry-chipping with mesquite? Just
 >brainstorming at the moment, but I know some wacko out there has probably
 >done all these and more :)
 >Cheers
 >...Matt...





If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the
human race has not achieved, and never will achieve, its
full potential, that word would be "meetings".




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:47:31 -0500
From: "Bev D. Blackwood II" <blackwod at rice.edu>
Subject: Dixie Cup Results

The results of the 17th Annual Dixie Cup are available on the web at:

http://www.crunchyfrog.net/dixiecup/results2000.html

The Foam Rangers would like to thank everyone who attended and all of 
you who entered.  Our entry total was 721 entries from all over the 
country.  Next year's Dixie Cup will be October 18-19 at the 
Courtyard by Marriott Houston Galleria (In other words, same October 
weekend, same hotel!)  See you then!
 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com/


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:26:56 -0500
From: "Gregory M. Remake" <gremake at harza.com>
Subject: Failed experiment

Hello all,

Nice to see some excellent q&a in recent HBDs.  I've got some experiment
results to pass along and some questions.

After four years of fermenting in nothing but carboys, I decided to give
open fermentation a whirl.  I decided to ferment in my bottling bucket,
and since I've often read about traditional breweries fermenting in
completely open vats, I didn't cover the bucket at all during initial
fermentation.  Thanks to good extraction and a little extra sparge
water, the Best Bitter recipe I brewed filled the bucket to the rim, so
I drew off a few quarts and fermented that in a closed jug, next to the
bucket in my closed basement closet.  Thanks to a huge starter I had
visible activity in about four hours at 68F in both vessels.  

Two days later I skimmed the yeast from the surface in the bucket, but
to my horror noticed several fruit flies buzzing around.  Until then,
the surface had been completely covered with thick kraeusen, so I hoped
the flies were merely feasting on the bit of wort that had been spilled
from the bucket.  I placed a cover on the bucket and let it finish
fermenting.  When I bottled the batch a few weeks ago, the samples
tasted fine and I looked forward to trying a carbonated sample.

This past weekend I chilled a bottle from each fermenter (open and
closed).  The closed fermenter sample was a bit green but otherwise held
great promise.  The open fermenter sample, however, had a decidedly sour
taste, with no head and a strange "slick" consistency.  I've never had a
batch go bad before, but I think these signs are the hallmark of
bacterial infection.  I have since tried several more bottles and they
all have the same characteristics.  Although drinkable, the open
fermentation bottles are completely inferior to the closed fermentation
counterparts.

Now for my questions.  Will extended aging help the infected bottles
recover, perhaps with cold conditioning?  I doubt it but thought I'd
ask.  Also, I had planned to use the yeast I had harvested from the
primary in a new batch.  Given the suspected infection, I doubt it's
worth the risk, but wondered if anyone else has run into this.

I had really wanted to conduct a valid comparison of closed vs. open
fermentation with this batch, having heard so much from the "open"
proponents.  Unfortunately, all I've confirmed is that I hate fruit
flies.  Perhaps it wasn't entirely their fault, but if I have to seal
off a bucket fermenter, then I see little difference from using a
carboy.  Carrying a full bucket was not much easier (if at all) than a
carboy in a milk crate, which is my usual practice.  And I couldn't
watch the yeast hurricane through the plastic walls of the bucket,
either.  Maybe some day I'll try open fermentation again, with a few
more precautions, but it won't be anytime soon.

Cheers!

Greg


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:53:25 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Drew, get thee to a punnery!

Drew Avis PUNishes us with his posting:

>
> I'm brewing a beer using the Swedish Porter yeast, so I
> thought I'd label
> the carboy using ancient Viking lettering.
>
> Is my beer runed?
>
>  - Drew
>

Drew, I WODEN't worry about the runes causing any problems. As long as the
airLOKI   doesn't become clogged with krausen, your beer should turn out
ASGARD as gold.

Cheers,
Brian

PS THORry for the lame humour.



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:58:09 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: Protein rests and Headless wheat

Dave asks about headless wheat beer.

>4.   Dough in at 113F (45C) and hold for 30 min.
      (combined beta-glucan and ferulic acid rest)

Here is your head destroying rest. Noonan says 113-122F dissolves
polypeptides (head and body).

Optimum protein rest is 122-140.  I'd suggest doughing in at 130, resting
for 15 min and raising  to 154.

hope this helps,

Stephen Ross

______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:02:33 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: galvanic corrosion, 3068 vs. 1056

larry Maxwell asks about his chiller/brewery design and dissimilar metals
corrosion.  Copper chiller with brass fitting is the scenario.  he wants to
connect to SS pipe nipple on the mash tun.

In looking at a galvanic table, I see that brass and stainless are pretty
far apart on the chart showing that their is corrosion potential at the
junction where the SS would corrode  if it is active or the brass would
corrode if the SS were passivated.  I am unsure if your SS if passive or
active.  

your thought of the dielectric union is pretty good except that I would
recommend against it due to the potential to get rust in your water/wort per
the Fe oxidizing.  Otherwise the Fe is close to SS in the chart if its
active  and it might work.

using an exotic plastic is probably better.  I might recommend a PDVF
(polyvinylidene fluoride) coupling or union based on available space issues.
Mcmaster carr has them in 1/2", 3/4", and up sizes for about the $10 to 20
range. check them out.  Temp range is 280degF and its great for pharm/food
applications!

JOhn (wallybrau at aol.com) asks about his 1056 vs. 3068 experience.  Did you
pitch direct from the package or use a starter?  if you pitched equal
amounts without a starter, I would theorize that the 1056 has a better
chance to overcome underpitching as its a pretty tollerant and durable
yeast.  the 3068 may have just pooped out early since it is more picky about
its reproduction and alcohol production environment. if both were scaled up
adeqautely, then I am stumped.  pitch BIG!!

hope these help.

pete czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:53:01 -0400
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: North Eastern Beer Competition #5 Western MA 


New England Fall Regional Homemade Beer Competition will be held
on December 2, 2000
at the White Church in Old Deerfield MA (North Western MA)

This is part 5 of New England Home Brewer of the Year Competition (NEHBOTY)

This is a revitalized competition, under new leadership it has gone from a
questionable venture to one of growing importance. Last years event earned
great feedback. 

I am really trying to encourage entries outside New England this year.
We have established a good pool of certified judges and can accommodate the
increased entries. 

If you are interested in entering our competition you will find all of the
details at:
http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace/NEHBOTY/NEFRHBC.html

If you are interested in judging contact me at:
jwallace at crocker.com
or 
413 625-2494

 _________________________________
         Jim Wallace
 http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace
 _________________________________




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:48:41 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons at honeywell.com>
Subject: Galvanic/electrolytic corrosion


Larry Maxwell asked about this in HBD 3461. You really only need to be
concerned about the galvanic couple if the two metals are going to be
immersed in an electrolyte. Unless you are going to leave liquid in the
system for storage, you probably don't have anything to worry about. Even if
you do that, the corrosion rates are fairly low.

If you are still concerned, you have three options: 1) use a brass/copper
union, because the corrosion will be worst where the metals actually meet,
and if it is a problem, it is cheaper to buy a new union than an new
chiller, or 2) use a brass/carbon steel (usually called "black iron"
improperly) dielectric union (this is not without problems either, because
the carbon steel will form a galvanic couple with the stainless steel), or
3) find a suitable plastic threaded union (the temperatures involved rule
out PVC, but you might be able to get away with CPVC). Teflon tape will not
insulate the dissimilar metal adequately.

I decided to use a short piece of reinforced vinyl tubing between my
stainless steel and my maxichiller, mainly so I can disconnect it from the
rest of the system for cleaning and sanitizing. I brazed a barb fitting to
the chiller to make sure I got a good seal.

Frank Timmons
James River Homebrewers
Richmond, VA




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:12:57 -0700
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <don at steinfillers.com>
Subject: Re: Mexican ingredients

TOLLEY Matthew  writes:
"Been thinking about using Mexican ingredients in brewing. "

You can't get more Mexican than using agave.  After all agave is the first
known ingredient ever used in North American to make an alcoholic beverage.
Pulque was brewed by the Aztec over 2,000 years ago and still is in some
regions of Mexico.  The Aztec actually had a "Pulque God" - my kind of
religion (here come the flames).

Don Van Valkenburg
brew at steinfillers.com
www.steinfillers.com



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:47:10 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: Teach A Friend To Homebrew Day

Hi All,

Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day is coming to your town...maybe even your
kitchen or backyard!

For the second consecutive year, the American Homebrewers Association and
the Home Wine and Beer Trade Association are teaming up to bring you Teach A
Friend To Homebrew Day.  On November 4, 2000 we encourage all you
homebrewers out there to introduce your friends and family to the wonderful
world of homebrewing.  Take 'em down to the local homebrew shop and
introduce them to the shopkeeper, then go and brew.  The idea behind Teach A
Friend To Homebrew Day is to bring new brewers into the hobby of
homebrewing, which will result in a stronger hobby for all of us.  For more
information check out:

http://www.beertown.org/AHA/teachbrew/index.htm

Cheers!
Gary Glass
- -------------------------
Gary Glass, Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121
Fax: (303) 447-2825
Email: gary at aob.org
Web: http://www.beertown.org



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:07:57 -0500
From: "Max Brandenberger" <maxb at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Krausening Lager

I've just brewed my fist lager after countless successful batches of ale.
Almost since the beginning of my brewing days, I've used the krausening
method of adding unfermented wort back to my fermented beer before bottling
to provide the necessary sugar for carbonation. This method has been
successful every time I've used it in ales, with no infections.

My standard procedure (for 5 gallon batches) is to decant about 1 liter of
hot wort (directly after the boil, before chilling) into a steam sterilized
bottle, and then cap it with a steam sterilized bottle cap. I then put the
bottled wort in the refrigerator and forget about it until I'm ready to
bottle. On bottling day, I bring the bottled wort to a boil for 15 minutes
and then chill it before adding it to the fermented beer prior to bottling.

With a lager, however, I'm concerned about the length of time that the
unfermented wort has to sit in the refrigerator before bottling. My
fermenting and lagering for this particular batch is going to take about 8
weeks. That's an awful long time for the unfermented wort to sit in the
refrigerator, even under the best sanitation conditions. With my ales, the
length of time between brewing and bottling is usually closer to three
weeks. Is it worth the risk of infection, even if I boil the unfermented
wort like I usually do, to use this method as opposed to adding corn sugar
like most homebrewers? Any advice on this subject will be greatly
appreciated.

Cheers!

Max Brandenberger
maxb at austin.rr.com



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:47:52 +1000
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: Hops on Pergola

G'day Brewers,

Just interested to know if any of you green thumbs out there have used hop
vines on a pergola or other such garden structure. Any problems etc.

Interested to hear your responses.

Ciao

Mark E. in Oz



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:15:47 +1000
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: Cutting the tops out of kegs?

G'day Again,

OK, I have seen a lot of different ways that you can knock the top out of a
keg, but I am very unsure what would be the "best" method rather than just
the quickest. Can someone help please.

Thanks, you guys are the greatest!

Mark E. in Oz



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:46:27 EDT
From: Jaxson28 at aol.com
Subject: Need Kick-butt Winter Warmer recipe

Can anyone supply me with a great recipe for a Winter Warmer,  I have not 
been able to find one in the literature available to me. I would like 
something not too heavy but with subtle alcohol and a nice hop bite and a 
refreshing hop nose. Any direction is greatly appreciated.

Thanks...Keep the brews flowing

Brian C. Jackson


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:42:49 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Chiller Survey / Mash Tun Valve

Just a quick update on the Son of Fermentation Chiller survey.  The
response was overwhelmingly positive!  I still have some logistical
things to work out but it looks like the venture is viable.  Seeing as
cooler weather is at hand, the timing is probably right to plan on
offering them in the spring of 2001.

Information about the Chiller and the Survey can be found at
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/ .  Scroll down to "Gadgets" and look
for the flashing red letters...I would appreciate your input if you
haven't already done so.

=====

Jim Hust asks about adding a valve to a Gott / Rubbermaid.  Jim, see the
diagram at http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/files/mashtun.gif .  You
should be able to rig some variation of this for your ball valve.

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:30:02 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Brass against Stainless Steel corrosion potential

Hi Group,
Larry asked about the corrosion potential of brass permanently connected to 
stainless steel, re. his wort chiller and boiler.

All in all, not a big deal. Brass and Stainless steel are reasonably close 
on the galvanic series. (A .2 volt difference versus a .5 volt difference 
for carbon steel to stainless steel, versus .8 volts for 
aluminum/stainless.) In other words, the corrosion potential is low.
For best results, do not use strong caustic cleaners, like lye. Treating 
with lye could cause the SS to actually corrode in preference to the brass, 
instead of the other way around normally. Drain the parts when not in use, 
and wrap the threads with teflon tape to prevent direct metal to metal contact.
If this were a commercial brewery, then you might want to schedule routine 
maintanance, but in a home brewery situation, I doubt you will ever see any 
corrosion.
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:04:53 -0700
From: "Scott" <Windsurf at bossig.com>
Subject: Seeking Urquel utopia

Had one person help last time, but still desperate, and hope someone with a
similar problem can help.

After four years of advancing my homebrewing skills, what great forsight I
had to save water chemistry for last!  What a headache.  The goal?  Water
for a decent pilsner.  My profile:

Ca++        6.
mg+          1.
Na+         85.
Cl-           24.
Alk          137.   (as CaC03)
Hardness   21.   (as CaC03)
ph             7.5

Sulfate      ND
Iron          ND

Yes, very high alkalinity.  It seems others with this type profile use
gypsum to get the Ca+ up, and lower the alkalinity, and thus, the ph.
According to John Palmer's "How to Brew", even getting my water to the 5.9
ph style of beer would require 1gm/gal., raising the SO4 to 147 ppm.

Using CaCL to get a ph of 5.6 would require 3.7gm/gal, raising the Ca to 264
ppm, and the Cl to 432ppm!!!

I could substitute 1/3 or 1/2 of my brewing water with distilled.  However,
I am trying to make do the way real breweries do, that is, use what you
have.

I could preboil my mash/sparge water to get rid of some CaCo3.  However, I
would definitely have to add a lot of calcium in some form, just for the
reaction to take place.

I could use a combination of gypsum/cacl/preboil/pretreating the water with
acid, or any combination of the above.

Here's what I do as of this moment.  Fire up 14 gallons of charcoal filtered
water, almost enough for the mash and sparge for a 12 gallon batch.  Add 8cc
of 88% Lactic Acid, which reduces the ph to about 6-6.5 (using test strips
with room temp sample)  (no lactic smell or sour bite detected).  I then
usually add a Tb. of Cacl to the mash, (2-row pilsner malt).  I haven't
measured this amount yet, just add it because my Ca+ is so low, and because
it seems like the right thing to do!  The ph mash ended up about 5.5.

Is this barking up the wrong tree, pretreating the water by decreasing the
alkalinity with acids?  I have tried the various software programs as well,
and none seem to tackle water chemistry from this perspective.  The
Chemistry looks like great water for a PU clone, if I could only get rid of
the  #?!!  CaCo3!

Am I doing the right thing?  Am I overreacting?  Should I just have a
homebrew?  This is my first attempt at a pilsner, so am getting a little
paranoid, as am using lots of Czech saaz (the alpha was only 2.8), and in my
neck of the woods, the grain was so hard to get I bought 100kg of it!

The results are not in as of yet.  Racking to the secondary revealed a great
saaz byte and smell, but it will be another 3 months (if I can wait that
long) before I know the results.

Scott
Richland, Wa.






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---