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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: The Headless Weizen Strikes Again (Teutonic Brewer)
  Low gravity session bitter (Jeff Renner)
  Copper v Stainless revisited. (WayneM38)
  danstar london = no more?? ("Czerpak, Pete")
  UK brews in manchester area ("Czerpak, Pete")
  more Gott bulkhead fitting questions ("Donald D. Lake")
  Re Cleaning counter flow chiller?? (RobertJ)
  Krausening ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Neoprene as insulator (Alan McKay)
  Re: chillin' question: CAP/Pre-prohibition Pils (Jeff Renner)
  Re: keg line length (Jeff Renner)
  CUTTING THE TOP OUT OF KEGS ("Hill, Steve")
  Cutting Kegs ("james suchy")
  Open Fermentation (Dave Burley)
  Krausening Lager ("Wayne & Janet Aldrich")
  Dick/Water (AJ)
  Volume of a beer tube (Doug Hurst)
  Kraeusening conundrum; Decoction triangle test notes... (Some Guy)
  Kegs Cutting ("Mark Ellis")
  re Failed experiment (Clifton Moore)
  Brewing Techniques (BT) And Cash Owed ("Chet Swanson")
  Need good beer supplier in Los Angeles Area for brewing party (Charley Burns)
  CACA comments requested.... ("dr smith")
  Ratio of DME to water for yeast starter ("Gordon and Sue Ludlow")
  re. Urquell Utopia ("Sean Richens")
  re. copper vs. stainless ("Sean Richens")


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:01:26 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: The Headless Weizen Strikes Again

Dave writes in part:
>Actually, I have never been too impressed with the head on my wheat beers, 
>but it seems to be getting worse. Note that none of the other styles I brew 
>have this problem. 

>4. Dough in at 113F (45C) and hold for 30 min. 
>(combined beta-glucan and ferulic acid rest) 
>5. Raise in 10 min to 131F (55C) and hold for 15 min. 
>(proteinase rest) 
>6. Raise in 15 min to 154F (68C) and hold for 60 min. 
>(saccharification)

>3. Beers made with this procedure taste pretty good, but are quite lacking 
>in mouthfeel/body and heading.

The problem is probably caused excessive protein breakdown. You're probably
thinking, "What!? How can that be with all that wheat malt?" The mash is
spending close to an hour in the proteinase range, which includes the 113F
rest. That's too much, even for wheat malt. That results in the lack of
mouthfeel as well as diminished malty flavor. I recommend the first rest be
at 40C (104F) for 20 minutes, the second at 50-55C (122F-131F) for 15-25
minutes, and then the 68C and 74C rests. 

I don't recommend a single step infusion mash, except perhaps with GW white
wheat malt. And beware the Weissheimer Pils malt -- as I recently learned
to my chagrin, Weissheimer has been shipping some undermodified Pils malt
to America, so I wouldn't try to use Weissheimer Pils malt in a single step
infusion mash anymore. (I wonder if their lot to lot variation is that bad
(large), or if they produce two kinds of Pils malt, one fully and the other
under modified, or if they're shipping their mistakes to America where,
"Die dumme Amerikaner koennen es kaufen!" I don't know. I won't buy the
stuff anymore unless I can get a copy of the batch analysis with it.)

I see that you use White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast. There's
significant variation between the Weizen yeast strains that the yeast
companies offer. The Wyeast Weihenstefan wheat beer yeast produces a nice
banana-clove mix, if you're not adverse to trying a different yeast.

Paul Claassen
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:13:49 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Low gravity session bitter

Brewers

My three favorite styles of beer are CAPs (doh!), Bavarian lagers and 
British low gravity, low carbonation session bitters.  I haven't had 
the latter on tap for a while so I had forgotten how nice they are. 
I just tapped a nine day old bitter that is the lowest gravity I've 
ever made (1.034), and yet it has plenty of flavor, as long as you 
don't think Old Peculier or anything like that.  I wanted to see how 
low I could go without getting something that is watery.  I don't 
think I'll push it past this.  I'm really happy with it.

One of the things I like about this style is that I can drink a 
couple of pints without jeopardizing the evening's productivity.  I 
can even sup as I cook dinner (I'll bet that lots of us are cooks - 
it goes with brewing) without worrying about how (if?) dinner will 
turn out.

This batch even included some putative no-no's such as sugar and dry 
yeast (Danstar Windsor).  I used 10% DWC Caravienne, 5% Torrefied 
wheat, 5.5% white cane/beet table sugar, and 1.2% pulverized 
chocolate malt, with Target and EKG for 25 IBU (plenty for this low 
gravity)  and EKG dry hops.  FG was 1.009.  It's a pale copper color 
 - just right.  Nice nutty, malty, hoppy brew.

Hope this inspires some other brewers to brew low alcohol brews.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:37:04 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Copper v Stainless revisited.

Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> wrote:
 << I just got a roll of about 50 feet of stainless steel .5 in I.D. tubing. 
I 
 was thinking about making a new chiller. Dose anyone have an idea as to the 
heat
  transfer of stainless compared to copper? <<

  Joe Yoder answered:

 >From The Fundementals of Heat Transfer by Incropera and Dewitt, Copper has 
a 
 thermal conductivity of 401 Watts/ meter*K and Stainless steel varies from 
 14.2 to 15.1 Watts/ meter *K, these properties are at 300 degree K and 
 decrease as temperature rises for copper and increase as temperature rises 
 for the stainless (but not much).  What this means is that stainless, while 
 great for other uses in the brewhouse, is a lousy conductor of heat and 
 therefore not the material you are looking for for a chiller.<
 
I also have a source of stainless steel tubing (free) and was exploring the 
possibilities of a SS counter flow chiller.

Are you saying that a 50 ft.stainless steel chiller will be 1/26th as 
efficient as a copper chiller of the same size? How does this relate to real 
time cooling, from boiling to pitching temps?

Thought that I saw a SS chiller somewhere out there on the WEB.  Anyone have 
any kind of chiller using stainless steel?

Thanks in advance

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Botanist Brewer


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:15:00 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: danstar london = no more??

Heard (saw) that Danstar London may be dropped from the Danstar dry yeast
line-up.  Its not listed on their website anymore.  Is this the case -
confirm or deny?  Its certainly not my favorite or house yeast.  Just hate
to lose more of the good dry yeasts to the wind.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:31:35 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: UK brews in manchester area

I spent 3 days over in the UK last week.  Flew in to Manchester airport and
stayed about an hour away in the town/village of Shifnel for some
work-related stuff at one of my companies manufacturing sites.

Managed to visit a few pubs one evening right in town:

Od` Fellows - no apparent sponsership, had excellent rack of lamb dinner
here, great tap and hand pump selection, enjoyed Bathams best Bitter and
Holdens Special on handpump, enjoyed Budveis Budvar on normal tap too (WOW!
my first BUdvar ever)
Old Bell - Bass sponsership, enjoyed Bass Gold label barleywine (bottle) and
Fullers London Pride, nice dartboard in back, nice pub feel
Beehive - Bass sponsership, watched part of the pro-soccer game on the tube,
purchased 3 bottles of Bass Gold Label to import to the USA, enjoyed M&B
Mild on tap
The Wheatsheaf - Banks sponsership, probably my favorite traditional style
pub, low ceilings and some smoke, enjoyed Banks bitter and Bobs Special
Square Ale on handpump, also had Banks barleywine via bottle, very friendly
bartender and locals, they didn't toss me out because of my USA affiliation
either, talked to a cool older homebrewer type who brews 2 kegs of bitter a
year and serves them on gravity feed at home, he also sent me over to the
Old Bell and Od'Fellows mentioned above
Crown and Anchor - Bass sponsership, had my last pint of the evening here,
normal Bass ale on tap

Plenty more places to explore on my next trip over their.  Naughty Nells did
sorta draw me to their door.  But only so much time.  I will return to the
Wheatsheaf for bitter after work and to Od'Fellows for a great meal and the
BUdvar.

Pete czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:38:38 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: more Gott bulkhead fitting questions

I found a deal on a couple of mashing thermometers with a straight 1/2"
male pipe threads that I want to use with my two 10 gal. Gott coolers
that I use as a mash tun and HLT.  Any suggestion on a fabricating
fittings?

The suggestion on using minikeg bungs is excellent if your appliance is
1/4".  I need something that can accommodate a 1/2".

Don Lake



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:07:15 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re Cleaning counter flow chiller??

>Ralph Link <rlink at escape.ca> wrote:

>Our last two batches of all grain have developed an infection. We put 
>considerable effort into cleaning, sanitizing, and just general 
>housekeeping. We wash all our tanks with chlorine based cleaner and spot 
>clean with a powerful idophor solution. We suspect, however that we are not 
>getting the 50 feet of 3/8" copper chiller as clean as we could. Can anyone 
>out there recommend a method and product that will ensure the chiller is 
>ready to use.

Make sure you flush it out thoroughly after use. To sanitize I drop it into
a bucket of iodophor or boil it in your wort. Some users will put them in
an oven at 350F for 20 mins, depending upon the construction of the CF chiller

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:39:25 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Krausening

Max,

No worries. So long as you boil it before adding, you won't infect your
beer--Even if it did get infected while on its extended stay in the fridge.
Thats not to say if it did get infected  you would still want to use it,
cuz you wouldnt.  If it got infected something is eating your sugars, which
means that your carbonation calculation would be off by what ever
percentage got eaten by the nasties. If that percentage is too high of
course you have glass gernade in the fridge.

Question. Since you are bottling while hot then capping, then chilling. you
are creating a vacume inside the bottle. Upon opening can you hear a
Pfhissst? (air rushing into the bottle) Does it sound different than
opening a bottle that is carbonated?(CO2 rushing out of the bottle) If so
it would be an early indicator of an infection.

Your process is fine. The only better way to do it would be to use a
pressure canner. This will give you Sterile wort that you can store for
years. This is how I keep wort for starters. The other advantage is since
it is sterile, I don't have to bother with re-boiling. I can just open and
pitch.

Phil Wilcox



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:42:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Neoprene as insulator


I don't know if it's the same thing, but I think it is similar. 
I can tell you  that the closed-cell foam camping pads (mostly
find them blue) are EXCELLENT insulators, and I would strongly
recommend using one of these.  On Canada Day a few years back
here in Ottawa I lined a backpack with some of this stuff and
filled the back with cans of beer for trekking about the city.
That was at about noon, and the next morning I got up and the
1 or 2 cans leftover were still fridge-temperature in the 
backpack!

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:34:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: chillin' question: CAP/Pre-prohibition Pils

darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu writes

>I brewed a cap/ pre-prohibition pils (if there is a difference, then someone
>please educate me based upon the recipe below)

As far as I'm concerned, pre-pro is a subset of CAP (classic American 
pilsner).  They are bigger (1.048-1.060) and more bitter (~30-40+ 
IBU) than post-pro versions (1.044-1.050, ~22-30+ IBU).

>A couple of days ago I decided to slowly drop the temp (WhiteLabs Pilsner-
>Lager yeast #800) from the 50 F down to 40 or so...but as I did so I noticed
>small white bubbles at the surface...and when chilled to 40 (or so) then
>dropped out.  Now when letting it come back up to 50 they are back.  I am
>assuming that this is still the ativity of the yeast...and that if I want
>the brew to be drier..that I had best let this stop on its own at the correct
>fermetation temps (50-55F).  Is this correct?

I like to take the beer to lagering temperature with a degree of 
extract or so left.  It will still ferment out at this temperature, 
so dryness is not a function of temperature.


>10# Canadian 6 row
>  .5# CaraPils
>  1# Harina de Maiz (picked up on a trip to Puerto Rico)

This is a bit low on corn for traditional, which would be 20-30%, but 
if you like it, that's what's important.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:53:24 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: keg line length

"Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> asks
>And out of curiosity (and because Physics class is a distant, painful
>memory) how would I figure out the volume of beer in the line?

That ain't physics, it's tenth grade geometry!

V = (pi)(radius)^2(length).  Be sure to use inside radius.  As an 
example, a three foot 1/4" ID hose:

V = 3.14(.125)(.125)(36)  =  1.77 cu. in.; since an ounce is 1.80 cu. 
in., so it's about an ounce.

Metrics is much easier, of course.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:59:13 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: CUTTING THE TOP OUT OF KEGS

Mark Ellis asks about cutting the top off of kegs.

I have seen it done several different ways.  Just recently at a homebrew
event (we filled two bourbon barrels with barley wine), I saw a guy who had
one crazy high tech system.  Pipes and wires going everywhere!  All and all,
it looked like it worked well too.  His kegs were definitely cut with a
torch.  A lot of jagged edges, and RUST!  Unfortunately, the money spent to
have someone cut the tops out did not pay off. He still needed to have the
edges cleaned up.  Will touch on rust a little later.

I have seen people use hack saws.  Maybe even a better idea than the torch.
No rust but lots of sharp edges and it had the "square" cut look  because
the limitation of cutting in a straight line.  

My personal favorite is going to that big hardware company (this was meant
sarcastically, I hate that place)--so called at least and buying a metal
sanding disk and attaching it to my drill.  ROCK AND ROLL!!!

Just make small round cuts with the edge of the blade, and when the top is
cut out, use the sides of the disk to sand the edges of the keg.

Also, wear a face mask to cover you nose and mouth.  It does create a lot of
dust.  Also, the metal does get a little hot too.

Now for the rust thing.  You should not have any rust occur if you do not
add any water to the keg for at least two weeks.  Consider this time as the
aging process.  The newly cut edges need time to passivate with the air to
create its "stainless" protective barrier.  After that period of time, you
can party like a rock star!!!

Hope this helps!
Steve






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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:11:03 EDT
From: "james suchy" <grayling at provide.net>
Subject: Cutting Kegs

Mark in Oz <mellis at gribbles.com.au> asked about cutting the
tops out of corny kegs.

I recently cut two kegs using my Dremmel tool and the
reinforced cut off wheel.  For all unfamiliar, the 
Dremmel tool is a brand of small rotary tool that has
interchangable bits.  My tool (no pun intended) is fitted 
with a 2 foot er.....61 cm (for all you metric freaks) 
flexible cable drive that lets you get into really tight
places.  The end result was a perfect cut with a hole that
compared equally to a keg cut with a plasma cutter.  
I did have to sand the edge a bit with sandpaper and a 
grinding stone to remove all the sharp edges.  The down 
side was the 2+ hours of cutting required.

I recently purchased a DeWalt recipricating saw for some 
home improvement/demolition (for those of you that have 
been to my home you can confirm that demolition truly 
means improvement in my case!).  I would think that this 
tool would have the best balance of power, speed, and 
control to take the top out of a keg.  

As with all information, use this to the best of your 
ability.  I do not advocate the use of power tools by 
the weak, timid or foolish.

Cheers!

Jim Suchy
Long time HBD Lurker
Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(90, 21 miles) Rennerian
- --
http://www.provide.net


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:26:25 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Open Fermentation

Brewsters:

The recent open fermentation experiment wasn't really a failure it just
showed the necessity of fermenting with the fermenter closed to bacteria
when fermenting on our scale.  The surface to volume ratio is much higher
in our case ( and thus the potential for infection above a detectable
level) than in the old timey swimming pool ale fermenters. Now open
fermentation is still practiced at some ale breweries, but most often in a
positive pressure room with highly filtered air.  

Most often "open" fermentation used in the HBD refers to non-carboy methods
in which the wide  fermenter opening of a bucket or garbage can is sealed
with a plastic sheet and rubber bands, in my case, or by a plastic lid with
sometimes an air-lock.  The advantages of this method is a superior ability
to clean the fermenter and an avoidance of a blowoff tube which may
represent a source of infection as it is also difficult to clean. If there
is insufficient headroom, most often the cover of the fermenter will knock
down the head and prevent loss of beer and a mess. These large mouth
fermenters also do not decorate ceilings as the carboys do in the event of
a rampant fermentation. 

For the acetified beer, serve it with lime and no one will know. I would
drink it sooner rather than later as you may also have a lactobacillus
infection if it smells "sour".

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:50:04 +0200
From: "Wayne & Janet Aldrich" <Aldrich4 at surf1.de>
Subject: Krausening Lager

RE: Krausening Lager

I attended a homebrewing class here in Germany at a local brewpub.  
The Braumeister instructed us to save 1 liter of wort in a plastic bottle 
and to freeze the wort until ready to bottle.  I have not attempted this but 
I intend to this weekend.  I will let you know my results in about 10 weeks. 

Wayne Aldrich



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:35:34 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Dick/Water

That would be the famous "Electronic Dick"?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

For Scott in Richland:  The real problem with this water is that there
is much less calcium (on an equivalence basis) than carbonate - rather
sodium is present at a level which is quite high.  Does the water taste
salty to you? If it does this saltiness will probably carry through to
the beer. Taste aside, the problem with low calcium is that there isn't
enough of it to permit removal by boiling or lime treatment. There are
2.7 milliequivalents per liter of bicarbonate and 0.3 of calcium. In the
course of reacting with lime, Ca(OH)2    + 2HCO3-    --->  CaCO3  +
2H2O   +  CO3--, only half the required calcium is supplied i.e. about
1.35 mEq/L and, as there is another 0.3 from calcium, a total of 1.65 is
available to eliminate a like amount of bicarbonate leaving 1.1. Extra
calcium can be added as the chloride and the sulfate (gypsum) if desired
but one must be careful to keep the sulfate level below, say, 25 mg/L in
a Pils or the bitterness will appear harsh and, as Pils is brewed with
very low ion water, too much chloride is going to give un-pilslike
mouthfeel and sweetness.

I think a much simpler approach than lime treatment, and perhaps the
only feasible approach to this water, is to dilute it 2:1 or 3:1 with DI
water. This will lower the alkalinity to under 50 and the sodium to
under 20. Don't worry about hitting mash pH via the calcium - malt
phosphate reaction. Use some carapils as a source of acid for this
purpose.

- --
A.J. deLange
CT Project Manager
Zeta Associates
10302 Eaton Place
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359 8696
855 0905
ajdel at mindspring.com




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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:39:44 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Volume of a beer tube

Drew Avis writes:

And out of curiosity (and because Physics class is a distant, painful
memory) how would I figure out the volume of beer in the line? 

I will take a stab at answering this question, but am also posting it to the
list in case I fail miserably.  If I remember my high school math correctly:
Volume = Height * Width * Length
Of course in a cylinder (your 1/4" ID tube) there is a circle taking the
place of the width and heighth.  I believe the equation for the area of a
circle is:  Pi * Radius^2 (squared).  So you can figure the volume of your
tubing with:

V=L(Pi * R^2) 

Where L is the length of the tube in inches.  You gave a length of 10' =
120"
Pi is 3.14 or somesuch
R is the radius. You have 1/4" ID tubing. Radius of 1/8" which = .125 inches

Therefore V = 5.88 Cubic Inches * 16.3871 =  96.47milliliters  

Now I have to go figure out just how much beer I get in a Yard...

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:44:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Kraeusening conundrum; Decoction triangle test notes...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I regularly kraeusen my hefeweizens (voted "Pretty Damned Good" at the
last AABG meeting). I dispense a portion of the wort (spiesse) to
sanitized quart canning jars, cover with sanitized foil and install the
rings typically used to secure the canning lids - all this without
chilling the wort. These, I store in my beer fridge while the
weihenstephan does its deed in the fermenters. No worries - the hot wort
plus the sanitization seems to protect the kraeusen wort from
contamination.

Case in point, I forgot to put the jars in the fridge on the last batch
until two days later. With great fear, trepidation, and scaredness, I put
the jars in teh ridge, hoping for the best. When I was ready to bottle, no
evil, noxious, bad spirits had descended uponj the kraeusen wort, and the
brew, now about a month in the bottle is very delicious, tasty and good.

BTW, this is the batch for the triangle test for "To decoct, or not to
decoct". At two weeks old, the triangle testers could pick out decocted vs
non-decocted, citing a difference in the malt character. This test will be
repeated at the November AABG meeting to ensure that the youth of the
non-decocted brew was not a factor.

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:23:09 +1000
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: Kegs Cutting

Wow,

Thanks for the stack of replies everyone!!!

When all was said and in summary there emerged probably 2 of the better
methods

1. Plasma Torch or similar gas cutting device
2. A "sawzall" or similar, but the downside side seems to be dependent on
skill you might just go through too many cutting discs to be cost efficient.

I like the plasma torch idea, as this means best of all, I will get a
professional to do it for me for a couple of bucks, and all I will have to
do is tidy up the burrs with a angle grinder. Best of all now I can stop
worrying!

Thanks all who helped out. I really appreciate your responses.

Mark E. in Oz



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:37:00 -0800
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gci.net>
Subject: re Failed experiment

I have been using open fermentation exclusively for the past 
year with great results.

I boil in a converted keg and simply run the primary fermentation
directly in that keg.  After about three days I transfer to Corney  
kegs to let it finish out.

I share your interest in watching the ferment in the glass, but 
then not having to clean a narrow necked jar is a great advantage.

I am forced to suspect your source of infection is in your plastic
fermentor.  It may well have picked up a deep infection that simply 
never effected your brews when used only as a bottling bucket, 
but when charged with a fresh batch of wort and left to sit I suspect 
the bacteria just went nuts. I would not use the yeast as I strongly 
suspect that there is a sizable bacterial presence.  

Plate it out or have a look under 400 power and you should see what
looks like pepper sprinkled over grapes.  The grapes being your yeast, 
and the small dots the bacteria.

I have never understood how people can get away with fermenting in 
plastic.  Under magnification the surface looks like a pile of hay.





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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:12:14 -0400
From: "Chet Swanson" <cswanson at gis.net>
Subject: Brewing Techniques (BT) And Cash Owed

Hello all. I'd like to thank Karl Lutzen and the Janitorial Staff for keeping
this great digest alive.

One brewing digest that did die was Brewing Techniques (BT). I was a loyal
subscriber since 1996 and I had just renewed when I received that ominous
letter in the mail - They were going bankrupt and worse they owed me $50!
However, they gave me the option of receiving back issues and Market Guides in
lieu of the cash - I agreed and skeptically selected the issue and returned
the letter promptly.

Well, it's been over a year later and nothing. Not a note...nothing. I
recently sent them an e-mail - again nothing.

Then, the unthinkable happened. I wanted to read many of the back issue
articles. Unfortunately, the BT staff did not published these articles on
their website, so I reached down deep and BOUGHT 6 back issues yesterday
(10-25-00)! Believe me, this really angers me. And guess what? Someone from
Brewing Techniques (brewtech.com email address) responded to me today
confirming my order.

Well, I just wanted to know if any other brewers and once loyal BT subscribers
have had the same problem.
Thanks,
Chet Swanson





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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:58:01 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Need good beer supplier in Los Angeles Area for brewing party

I'm hosting a "brew your own" for a group I've been working with in Los
Angeles (actually El Segundo). I've been tasked with getting some good
samples of commerical beers for the "seminar". Where do I go? There's
apparently no Beverages and More down here. Any suggestions?

Charley (thirsty in El Segundo)



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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:24:56 GMT
From: "dr smith" <drsmithhm at hotmail.com>
Subject: CACA comments requested....


I am planning on the following recipe for this weekend:

	8lbs Breiss 6 row malt(2.2L)
	2lbs C&B flaked maize
	0.7oz Cluster at 9.0% - 60min.
	1.0oz Saaz at 3.7% - knockout.
	Danstar Nottingham Yeast

For the mash, I am uncertain if I need to attempt a protein
rest and what it would accomplish.  How might the brew turn out
differently if I ignore a protein rest?  I understand it would
have been used for efficiency and clarity with undermodified
malts, but I'm not certain if it would really benefit the
flavor.

What's the guidelines in this style for aroma hops?  I've always
just thrown an ounce at knockout for aroma and the beer has been
good, but I'm not certain if that would be 'to style' for this
recipe.

Thanks for the help.

	--drsmith
_________________________________________________________________________
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http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:45:29 -0700
From: "Gordon and Sue Ludlow" <ludlow at aa.net>
Subject: Ratio of DME to water for yeast starter

I've been making my yeast starters much too thick and never thought to take
a hydrometer reading.  I picked up 2 cups of DME and 1 cup of water off of
some web page a year or two ago and have been using that ever since.  A
quick web search turns up many recommendations - none with associated
hydrometer reading.

Here's what I found on web pages:
1 Tbs DME per cup of water
2 Tbs DME per cup of water
1/3 cup DME per 3 cups of water
1/2 cup DME per pint of water
 .75 cups DME per 7 cups of water
1 cup DME per 2 cups of water

If my math is right, these suggest DME:water ratios of:
1 Tbs DME per cup of water = 1:16
2 Tbs DME per cup of water = 1:8
1/3 cup DME per 3 cups of water  = 1:9
1/2 cup DME per pint of water  = 1:4
 .75 cups DME per 7 cups of water  = 3:28 (about 1:9)
1 cup DME per 2 cups of water = 1:2

OK, so here's the question.  Which, if any, of these will give me a gravity
of 1.025?  I'm assuming it's a 1:8 or 1:9 ratio, since that's the most
popular suggestion.

Thanks!
Gordon





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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:49:12 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: re. Urquell Utopia

Scott is on the right track with acid treatment for his water - it's almost
all sodium bicarbonate, and more than a little low on calcium.

Since Pilsen has such low-salt water, and make good beer, I would just worry
about the pH to be totally authentic.  I've used both lactic and phosphoric
acids, and I find lactic acid gives a "soft" flavour and phosphoric a
"crisp" flavour.  I personally favour the latter as being more versatile in
the kinds of beer you can make.

I'm personally too paranoid to leave the calcium that low.  Calcium chloride
would be more compatible with extreme hop bills than gypsum, especially with
the high sodium content, but for hop "bite" and a bit less authenticity you
could use just gypsum to get the calcium up to 30 ppm before adding acid.
Just cut back on the hop bill to avoid harsh bitterness.

Great water for dark beers, though.

Sean Richens
srichens at spamsucks.sprint.ca



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:33:51 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: re. copper vs. stainless

Sure, copper is a better conductor of heat, but with an immersion chiller
your main heat transfer resistance is in the liquid on the wort side of the
tube, especially once the natural convection current slows down to the
laminar flow region.  I did this and the measured heat transfer coefficients
were as predicted by theory.  They don't come anywhere close to the
conductivity through the metal alone.  The benefit of copper's conductivity
is more in avoiding hot spots in fired boilers.

For the engineers, assuming wall thickness of 0.035 inch, the conductivity
through copper works out to 450,000 Watts / m^2.K, and stainless to
16310 Watts / m^2.K.  Neither of these would affect the more likely overall
heat transfer coefficient of 100-200 W/m^2.K - it's like 0.5% difference.

Unless your source of cold is really expensive, don't worry about
efficiency.  Surface area is what really counts.  Free stainless tubing
comes a close second.  I just think about all of the other things I would do
with the stainless tubing - it's irreplaceable for product contact on the
cold side.  How about an immersion coil for cooling lagers during
fermentation?  My immersion chiller is 50 ft of 3/8" OD copper, but my water
is also near freezing during brew season.

The trick to an immersion chiller is localising the cold - usually you put
the coil close to the wall of the boiler so that warm wort rises freely in
the centre and drops along the coils.  You could also get extra efficiency
with a design that made most of the tubing run up-down instead of
horizontally.  That would require a tube bender and some thought.

Stainless will work harden just like copper, so don't bend it any more than
necessary to get it into the desired shape.  Pulling it around a form
(choose wisely, borrow something to get the exact size coil you want) is the
easiest way.  Use a tube bender or at least pack the tubing with sand (or
salt or sugar) for the 90 degree bends at the ends.

A quibble - are you sure your tubing is 1/2" ID?  Tubing is usually labelled
OD.

I would try it.  Making an immersion chiller doesn't preclude salvaging 95%
of the tubing for a different project if the results aren't as desired.
Just do some baseline runs in a pot of water and see how it goes.

Sean Richens
srichens at spamsucks.sprint.ca



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