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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  PID controller ("The Holders")
  Beginners Plight. ("Adrian Levi")
  Feeling A Bit Guilty ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Tap Water & Racking Canes (Doug Hurst)
  Re: Higher Boil off rates ("RJ")
  Fw: Motorize mash paddle ("RJ")
  Re: Easy Racking ("RJ")
  Re: PBW vs Copper Fact Finding ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  mysterious heavy haze revisited, siphon starter (Roy Roberts)
  PBW and brass ("George de Piro")
  Copper and PBW ("Rich Medina")
  starting racking canes (JGORMAN)
  R.E.  Heating the Fridge (Dave Humes)
  John's PBW findings (RiedelD)
  Do you ever feel bad? (darrell.leavitt)
  CO2 tank during force carbonation (Bob Sweeney)


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:11:01 -0800
From: "The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: PID controller

The subject of RIMS and controllers and where to get them cheap is back in
the queue.

I have a couple of Omega 9111 PID controllers that I snagged off Ebay awhile
back that I would love to find a nice brewing home for.

If any of you gadget d00ds are interested, let me know.


Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:03:42 +1000
From: "Adrian Levi" <a_levi at dingoblue.net.au>
Subject: Beginners Plight.

I have been home brewing for about a year now with some ok results
and some failures. Well that's what its all about isn't it?
So far I have been using tins off the shelf and haven't been doing much
in the way of experimenting. I use a closed brew vat with airlock and
am looking for a cleaner crisper beer like an Australian Tooheys NEW
(Draught).

Does anyone know of some recipes to start me off?

Lastly because all of the topics discussed here seem so far advanced I
apologise if this is an inappropriate place for a newbie to be poking
around since it seems that most of you make your beer starting with grain.

Adrian Levi.



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:42:07 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Feeling A Bit Guilty

With all the fun and goings on lately I have been remiss in not following up
a query from someone about my peach wheat beer. That being "how did I make
it".

Last year, that being my first attempt, I poured a can of peaches into the
primary and another into the secondary. The first can I think was largely
wasted as any flavour effect would have been scrubbed out by primary
fermentation.

This time around, I made 48 litres of a fairly standard wheat beer (50/50
barley and wheat malt) using White labs Hefeweizen yeast. I added three cans
of peaches (in their juice) to the secondary and left it for two weeks
before kegging. I could have left it a lot longer but I was after a subtle
peach flavour.

Last night I asked the Doc "Can you taste the peaches?"
He belched and said "No".
But then, it was after the 263rd beer that I asked the question of him. Our
conversation had really drifted somewhere beyond beer analysis at that stage
of the evening. At that point in the night, I doubt if he would have
commented on Ray's bottle of skunk oil had I have added it to his glass. Now
there is an idea, I'll try that when next he is here.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:09:50 -0600
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Tap Water & Racking Canes

Pete Calinski writes the following response to Chuck D:
	
"Yeah just use water and forget about the bowl. The volume of the cane is so
small it won't have an effect. I also doubt there is a significant chance of
contamination from tap water if drinking it doesn't make you sick. Just my
unexpert opinion."

I've seen it written that water straight from the tap should not be used for
fear of contamination.  In 13 years of brewing I've only had one infection
(knock on wood) and I don't think it was from tap water.  I use straight tap
water to rinse my bleach soaked fermenters and racking tubes.  I also fill
the tubing with plain tap water to start my siphons.  I do, however, let the
water run into a bowl before I put the tubing into the fermenter.  No real
need I guess.  It's just my ritual.  People made good beer for hundreds of
years without knowing about bacteria or sanitation.  I'm sure that modern
city tap water is much, much, much cleaner than what they were using.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:27:45 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Higher Boil off rates


Assuming that you have a greater volume in the boil (I often boil off as
much as 45%) one thing you'll really gain on is utilization of hop (alpha
acid) bittering generally speaking approximately 6-10% better for a 90 min
boil.

Flavor hops IMHO should not be impacted that much... though, they may seem
to be more "rounded" in the end products sensory profile.



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:28:23 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Fw: Motorize mash paddle


Yeah.. Check out Dan Listermann's page re: MixMasher



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:28:58 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Easy Racking


Hey Pete,

I prefer not to fill the racking cane with anything but beer....

My preference, is to use a plastic racking cane with a sediment cup on the
primary end (this reduces the amount of yeast/trub being transferred,
because it
sits above the trub).  The cane has a carboy cap in-between the sediment cup
and
the cane's gooseneck.  The gooseneck is attached to a length of vinyl tubing
(long enough to allow the primary to sit higher up from the secondary...
gravity
is a wonderful thing!) which then attaches to a short length of hard tubing
(I
often save my old racking canes, which I cut up into short pcs. for this
reason...) which is inserted into another carboy cap, the other side of the
hard
tube is attached to an additional pc of vinyl tubing which is long enough to
sit
on the bottom of the secondary.

Insert the racking cane into the primary, attach the carboy cap to the
carboy
and push the cane into the primary to the bottom.   Place the primary on a
shelf
or suitable location above the secondary... Place the other end of the
racking
tube into the secondary so that the tube is on the bottom and then attach
the
second cap to the secondary carboy.   Blow into the open small hole of the
primary's carboy cap, the natural CO2 which blankets the ferment acts as a
protection barrier for the small amount of wind that you'll be adding (if
that
still bothers you, you can always use 2-3 lbs CO2 from a tank to start the
flow,
gravity will take it from there, excess air in the secondary is forced out
through
it's carboy cap's small hole.



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:04:04 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: PBW vs Copper Fact Finding

John Palmer did some investigation regarding PBW vs Copper:

>Glen Pannicke wrote me over the weekend and said he had seen nearly the 
>same thing, though in his case the solution didnt turn blue, but blue green

>crystals could be seen on the copper. He noticed it after a couple hours.

I've only seen this once and it was a strange phenomenon.  Here's the
details:

I have two 5 gallon SS pots of unknown grade.  But they're department store
cheapies at $10/ea (on sale).  I drilled the sidewall and mounted a bronze
ball valve (SS ball) on the outside and other brass and copper hardware on
the inside. The joints on the outside of the kettles were fluxed & soldered
to prevent small leaks and were cleaned after soldering.

Now that I think of it, I remember that I deleaded the brass AFTER I
assembled the whole shebang by pouring a vinegar/peroxide mix into the
kettle, letting it sit for a while and then pouring it out into the other
kettle to sit.  Now what if I didn't rinse that second kettle well enough
with water or some of the slightly copper-laden vinegar/peroxide mix was
still inside of the pickup tubes and NOW I add some PBW to the kettles...

I'm not sure that it happened this way, but then again, I'm not sure that it
didn't either.  I would expect this type of behavior from an acidic
solution, not a buffered caustic.  I love PBW and use it on all of my
stainless.  I'm sure that this is due to some unkown freak mechanism and is
not the action of PBW alone.  

Herring anyone?

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"Designs and schemes which work well on paper rarely do so in actual
practice." 


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:57:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Roberts <psilosome at yahoo.com>
Subject: mysterious heavy haze revisited, siphon starter

Thanks to those who responded to my Nov. 14 post asking
about the extremely thick haze I had after boiling. My best
guess is that the haze was probably suspended break
material: although the pH was OK, I didn't use Irish Moss
nor did I wait all that long for it to settle (maybe 15
minutes).  After the primary fermentation, I racked into a
carboy with liberal amounts of polyclar, bentonite, and 1
oz. Northern Brewer pellets, and left it at 44 deg. F for
about a week. This helped quite a bit, so being impatient I
bottled and now the beer is pretty clear at room
temperature with moderate chill haze.  Lesson: in the
future I will use Irish Moss and leave the boiled, cooled
wort much more time to settle.
 -
John Peed asks if anyone has used an inline siphon starter.
I had a Phil's Psyphon starter which is supposed to go near
the end of the racking cane. It has something of a one-way
valve so that you can fill the cane and attached tubing by
shaking it. It doesn't work all that well in practice: I
found that shaking stirs up a lot of sediment, and if I
have the end of the cane up high enough so that isn't a
problem, I can't fill the tubing enough to start the
siphon. It's much less frustrating to simply fill the
tubing and cane with water to prime it.

Roy Roberts
NYC



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Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:58:04 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: PBW and brass

Hi all,

John Palmer wrote:

"Today (Monday) I called Charlie Talley, the chemist at Five Star Chemicals
that developed PBW, and described the observations.
This was the first time he had ever received comments about a solution
turning blue in the presence of copper. (Or blue period.)"

Back to me:

I soak my brass tap faucets in PBW (in plastic buckets) all the time here at
the brewpub and ALWAYS get a blue color after about 24-36 hours (sometimes I
start soaking them the evening before a day off).

I can see that it may be dependent on water chemistry, but it is surprising
that Charlie has never heard of this happening before.  On the other hand,
they don't even put lot numbers on their products, which makes tracking
problems and unique behavior difficult.

The water here in Albany, NY is very low in sulfates, and most other ion
species.  It has low residual alkalinity but is not particularly acidic.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:38:59 -0500
From: "Rich Medina" <gothambrewer at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Copper and PBW

Collective,


John Palmer wrote:

"This was the first time he had ever received comments about
a solution
turning blue in the presence of copper. (Or blue period.)
 ....We discussed possible
chemical mechanisms, and really didn't come up with
anything, other than it
is probably source-water related. Perhaps your water is
acidic or has a
high sulfate content or you added gypsum to the brew that
you were cleaning
up after?"

In a 5 gal. all-grain batch I made this past July, I made
the 'mistake' of placing my 1/2" x 50' immersion chiller
into a 5 gallon bucket full of PBW solution (as per mfr.
instructions) and left it overnight.  My intention was to
leave the chiller in for 15 minutes or so.  The following
day, I found a super-bright copper coil and the blue-green
PBW solution.

I believe I can affirm one of the conditions John mentioned.
While NYC water is neither acidic or high in sulfate
content, I took the immersion chiller from my kettle
immediately after use, hosed it down and placed it into the
PBW solution.  My batch did have a one teaspoon addition of
gypsum and I now suspect the particulate matter left on the
chiller reacted with the PBW.  I also cleaned the rest of my
brewing equipment (or at least the stuff that fit inside the
opening of the coil) with this solution.

I am troubled however that the coil emerged from the
solution looking so new.  My procedure is to scrub the
chiller down and place it in boiling water after each use.
Could there have been enough of a CuO2 (don't know if this
is the right term, should have paid better attention during
those chemistry classes) film on the coil to affect the
outcome regardless of the gypsum?

TIA....lurk mode..ON!


Rich Medina
gothambrewer at bigfoot.com


You can observe a lot by just watching.
 -Yogi Berra




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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:39:00 -0500
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: starting racking canes

>>>>>>how do most people start their racking canes?

I attach a latex hose to the racking cane.  The second part is a flask and a
stopper with two holes in the stopper.  Stick a small tube in each hole of the
stopper.  One is for the latex hose and the other to suck with.  Suck through
the one tube in the stopper and the siphon starts.  You can clamp the latex
hose, insert the bottling wand and start filling.  Works pretty good and then
you have beer for the FG reading.


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:51:46 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: R.E.  Heating the Fridge

Steve,

A low wattage light bulb may be all you'll need to bring the temperature up
to an acceptable level.  It will work better if you install a small muffin
fan, found in electronics stores, to circulate the air and help maintain an
even temperature throughout the fridge.  You can take it one step further by
purchasing an external temperature controller for the fridge that has both
heating and cooling contacts.  Both Williams and Brewer's Resource sell such
controllers.  Williams also sells a space heater, but a light bulb works
fine.  Just keep it away from any of the internal plastic, not too close to
your carboy or kegs, and circulate the air with a fan.  When using the
external controller for heating the fridge, unplug the fridge and plug the
light bulb into your controller.  Leave the muffin fan running all the time.
BTW, just running the fan will raise the temperature several degrees.  Set
the controller for your desired temperature and make certain it is set for
heating.  I tape the temperature sensor to my carboy and then tape a couple
inches of foam insulation around the sensor.  That way the sensor is
measuring the temperature of your beer as opposed to the ambient temperature
of the fridge.  The controller will turn the light on and off as needed to
maintain your desired temperature.  Most controllers include a
"differential" adjustment that is generally set to 2-3 degrees for cooling
purposes to avoid over cycling the compressor.  But in a heating
configuration it is only cycling a light bulb or other heat source.  So, you
can set the differential to 1 degree and it will maintain your desired
temperature quite accurately.

- --Dave





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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:00 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: John's PBW findings

First of all: "Thanks John!"
Doing a quick test with PBW and copper was certainly a nice gesture on
your part.  Hats off to you.

>during cleaning. Using PBW as the cleaner dropped the copper loss by 99%, 
>to virtually background water levels. So, Charlie was surprised to hear 
>that copper or brass seems to be at issue here. We discussed possible 
>chemical mechanisms, and really didn't come up with anything, other than it

>is probably source-water related. Perhaps your water is acidic or has a 
>high sulfate content or you added gypsum to the brew that you were cleaning

>up after?

I'm fairly sure my water is in the pH 7.5 range.  It is definately very low
in sulfate.  However, I *did* add some sulfate to the brewing water.  If
this
is the culprit though, I would have thought someone replicating Burton water
would have had this trouble long ago.  In my case, I only added sulfate up
to
about 65 ppm (via gypsum).

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Canada


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:45:01 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Do you ever feel bad?

Do you ever feel bad .....  for the yeast?

They work real hard for us.....

Sometimes for several consecutive batches...

Just to be thrown out!

I do.....

But have no solution to this dilemma....

 ..Darrell


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:46:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Sweeney <bobsweeney at email.com>
Subject: CO2 tank during force carbonation

I'm lucky enough to have acquired a beer fridge and in
the spirit of the HBD I'm trying to modify some of my
regular brewing procedures (re habits) to see what 
happens.  One thing I'm looking at now is different
procedures for force carbonation.  In the past I've used
the '1. cool the keg, 2. pressurize to relatively high
psi with C02, and 3. rock back and forth until CO2 is 
no longer apparently being absorbed' method.  I want to 
try to force carbonate without using the keg rocking 
technique to see if there is a difference, as some on
this forum have noted, in the resulting carbonation 
bubbles and lace.  

The procedure I want to try this time is simple: I've cooled
the beer (a spiced "holiday" ale) down to the mid 30's
and attached my C02 tank set at 30psi.  I plan on leaving 
this for about 36 hours. These parameters are based on a post 
in a previous HBD that claimed about 12 hours of this pressure 
at this temp. is necessary per desired volume of C02.   
I don't have the reference to that post but it was several
years ago.  After this period I plan to reduce the pressure
to something more appropriate for serving (about 10psi)
and hope for good results.

My question concerns the placement of the C02 tank since
I'm currently unable to have the tank outside the fridge
while connecting it to the keg in the fridge.  Will having 
the CO2 tank continuously connected to a keg in a 35 degree 
fridge cause a problem (assuming no leaky gas connections)? 
Can I as an alternative just periodically connect the keg  
to the tank, set at the desired psi, then remove it from the
keg and the fridge when gas is finished being absorbed. 

I couldn't believe this topic had not been previously
discussed here but after an hour placing with the HBD search
facility I couldn't find an answer.
- --
Bob Sweeney
Mobile, AL

Westheimer's Discovery: A couple of months in the 
laboratory can save a couple of hours in the library. 
 -Frank H. Westheimer, chemistry professor
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