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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: RIMS in line filter possibility ("D. Schultz")
  More PID and Strainer/Filter stuff (Nate Wahl)
  Cleaning used SS ("Jones, Steven T")
  Re: Oktoberfest (Jeff Renner)
  Beercicles (Chad Petersen)
  Re:  Caught the bugger ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Easy racking? ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Motorize mash paddle (Mjbrewit)
  The Ice Man Commeth ("Philip J Wilcox")
  boil off rates (Robin Griller)
  Racking pains ("Peed, John")
  Primary Fermentation...how long? (Dave & Joan King)
  more Zn/Oats ... ("Stephen Alexander")
  HEATING THE REFRIGERATOR ("Hill, Steve")
  PBW vs Copper Fact Finding (John Palmer)
  The Doctor Has Been ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Whitelabs WLP 500 ("Richard Pass")
  Re:  Oktoberfest ("Sean Richens")


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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:43:56 -0800
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz at qwest.net>
Subject: re: RIMS in line filter possibility

A glass fiber (GF) filled polypropylene (PP) will not likely have been FDA
approved. However, I would not worry about it causing any problems. I have
seen all types of GF thermoplastics get FDA approval for everything but
implantation.

You might also look at getting a Bazooka screen from Zymico (
http://www.zymico.com/ ) or a Sure Screen from one of the many HB stores
that carry it such as Brewer's Resource.  I just got my Bazooka screen and
am looking forward to using it. I have used the Sure Screen before for
filtering for the pump but since I also use it to filter out hops in my
Corny (used as a secondary), I needed another one for the mash tun.

Burp,
 -Dan



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:57:01 -0500
From: Nate Wahl <cruiser at cros.net>
Subject: More PID and Strainer/Filter stuff

Ladies and Gents!

Steve Guernsey asked about sources for PID controllers and/or plans. 
MECI surplus (Dayton OH, like an acre of surplus electronic parts)
carries a PID board that they sell for like $15, but you need to add
power supply, sensor, etc. No display, and you have to set everything
with unmarked potentiometers, but hey, if you have the need to create...

TTI Inc. carries many PID controllers, and has a Clearance Items list
you can check out; that's where I got mine.  Works good, mostly; they
were a lot of help (like getting me an english manual, etc.).  Units for
as low as $65.  No relation, yadda yadda.  Go to
http://www.ttiglobal.com/

Note that the unit I got from them (Autonics TZ4ST-24R) wouldn't read a
thermocouple right (the ambient temperature compensation wasn't working)
and I had to use an RTD instead.

I also remember seeing plans for a PID controller out there, possibly on
a link from brewery.org, but I couldn't find it.  Anybody else remember?

Regarding Bruce Garner's question for a filter, those units are known as
strainers.  You can find brass units in most of the industrial plumbing
catalogs.  Being a gadget freak, I built one myself!  It was to keep
fine chunkies from sticking my solenoid valves open on my HEARMS. 
Here's a GIF of it.  http://www.cros.net/cruiser/strnr.gif

Basically wort flows into the outer region (inside a piece of 3/4"
copper), down along the outside of a piece of 1/2" copper with a bunch
of small holes (1/16") drilled into it, and a piece of 20 mesh SS screen
wrapped around it.  The wort flows through the screen into the inner
tube, then to the outlet (on the left), leaving the particulate on the
screen.  Not shown is a blowdown valve (back to the mash tun) on a cap
on the right.

The left side of the inner tube is flared to fit inside the left 3/4"
union, sealed by a food-grade rubber washer; the other union allows
removing the outter sheath for cleaning the screen without removing the
rest of the unit from the piping. 

The thing plugged up regularly unless I vorlaufed (?) a lot, and any
flow-induced carryover would block it.  Blowing it down helped
sometimes; other times I'd have to clean it mid brew. Yuk.  Fortunately
its mounted directly above the mash tun, so the drippings weren't lost.

Since I now have a solenoid valve controlling flow that has larger
clearances, I'm going to just remove the SS screen; anything under 1/16"
shouldn't hinder valve operation or block my heat exchanger, and it all
filtering takes place.

I'd suggest staying away from 40 mesh strainers with as much plugging as
I experienced with the first incarnation.  Even 20 mesh is too fine,
IMHO (as are all my babblings!)

Hope this helps more than it confuses! Hoppy Brewing!
Nate Wahl
Oogie Wa Wa


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:31:24 -0500
From: "Jones, Steven T" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Cleaning used SS

Season's greetings to you all.

I had the good fortune to find the perfect false bottom in the scrapyard
Friday. It is a circle of perforated stainless steel, 13" dia, 1/8" holes on
3/16" centers (40% open), and it is domed in the center about 2" in height.
It is very heavy gauge in that I can stand on it without it collapsing. 

My question concerns cleaning it so that it is safe to use. I have no idea
of what it's previous use was, but it was covered with a heavy layer of
dust, wasn't oily or greasy, and had some blue marks on it, like the dye
machinists use to mark metal. What is the best way to prepare it for use?

TIA

Steve
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:57:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oktoberfest

"Casey Cobb" <acez at mindspring.com> writes:

>I undertook the task of making a true lager
><snip>
>After about 17 days from brewing
>(my original plan was 10)

This longer than expected primary is probably due to sub-optimal 
pitching rate.  I made a dunkel two weeks ago using a gallon starter 
for 7.75 gallon batch, and it was nearly finished at six days.  I've 
had two week plus ferments like yours with one quart starters.  Big 
starters are important with lagers.

>I racked into the secondary, even though I could
>see it still bubbling. There was no real way to keep it at a steady temp
>while racking, so it probably got up to maybe 67 degrees. So now its back in
>the chiller, and I dropped it 5 degrees a day, and its at about 43 degrees
>now, with no real activity. Did I mess something up? Should I add more
>yeast? I ask this because it was fermenting pretty good before the racking,
>and is stagnant now.

I like to rack to the secondary for lagering while it's still 
bubbling a bit.  I assume you raised the temperature for a diacetyl 
rest.  For many lager yeasts that is unnecessary.  If you can't smell 
diacetyl or if you haven't had a problem with that yeast in the past, 
I'd suggest just skipping it.  It is one more step, and it will also 
result in the fermentation probably finishing before you can lager. 
I like a little bit of fermentation during at least the first part of 
lagering to protect the beer.

However, I'm sure you didn't mess anything up.  It probably fermented 
out, or even if it didn't quite, you lost enough CO2 that whatever is 
being produced now is staying in solution, especially as you drop the 
temperature and it can hold more CO2 in solution.

>I guess since I can't get it down to 35, Ill just keep
>it at 42 or so for about a month.

While not optimal, it should work fine.  Be sure to report back on 
how it turns out.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:04:14 -0800
From: Chad Petersen <Chad.Petersen at wwu.edu>
Subject: Beercicles

Mr Sheets,
Perhaps some of the bowties will call me a putz, but I have completely froen
lagers before with no ill effect.  Probably not a good habit especially if
you ferment in glass, but it a wonderful.

Father Chad
Brewing Cleric
Wholly Man
Geek


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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:53:05 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re:  Caught the bugger 

Graham,

Anyone that can understand your post should have no problem understanding
the court system in the USA.  ;-)

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:14:44 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Easy racking?

chuck_d asks?

>as a side note, how do most people start their racking canes?  i fill my
>hose and as much of the upper part of the cane as possible (it's upside
>down), then invert the cane to fill it it completely.  i seal the hose
with
>my thumb, and put my cane in the beer, then drain the water into a bowl
>until beer starts and move to my bottling bucket or whatever.  is there an
>easier way?  oh, and when i say water i mean that no-rinse sanitizing
>solution.

Yeah just use water and forget about the bowl.  The volume of the cane is
so small it won't have an effect.  I also doubt there is a significant
chance of contamination from tap water if drinking it doesn't make you
sick.   Just my unexpert opinion.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:30:12 EST
From: Mjbrewit at aol.com
Subject: Motorize mash paddle

Anyone have a source for a sanke keg motorizable mash paddle.  I use a false 
bottom with no obstructions that rests an inch or so of the bottom of the 
keg.  I am aware of the Brewing Techniques article on the subject, but 
thought I would check to see what if anything is available from homebrew 
suppliers, before i try to fabricate one myself.  


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:57:33 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: The Ice Man Commeth

Joe,

Whats the Gravity of the beer now? If its done fermenting, than your fine.
Welcome to the world of Ice beers. Molson, Labatt, and Miller do exactly
what you did to most of their beers. They chill till slushy (Ice forms
around an impurity first) they filter out the ice, and legally have to add
back the volume water removed. The home brew advantage is we can omit that
step. ;<) If its not done fermenting, then you'll need a wake up call for
your yeasties, I would suggest Krausening it. Sook in the archives for good
details on this proceedure. BUt, from the facts you gave us (secondary,
temps 36F) I'd say you thought it was done fermenting anyway. Currently I
have a Jever Pils kegged as the secondary and lagering at 30F. Hop Heads
and Lager Lovers Unite!! This baby has 35 hop additions!!! Thats every 10
minutes from when the sweet wort first hit the kettle. Saaz, Spalter
Select, Hallertau & Tettnager!!! Many additions with multiple hops!!!
There will be NO falling asleep by the fireplace this year at christmas!!

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
(274,32) Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:44:43 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: boil off rates

HI all,

Probably a silly brewer question, but: having read that 10% is optimal
boil off rate/hour and having a boil off rate of 15%, I wonder: 

what are the impacts of a higher boil off rate? Should I add flavour hops
later in the boil (i.e. does the higher evaporation rate lead to faster
elimination of hop flavour components?)? etc...\

Robin



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:04:10 -0500
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Racking pains


In response to Chuck's questions about racking:

Generally, a week in the primary is about right.  By the end of a week, all
blowoff of material should have stopped and almost all of the head will have
fallen.  The gravity typically will be around half the starting gravity.  As
I understand it, the object of the secondary is to get the beer off the bulk
of the inactive yeast, and away from the extremely bitter residue that's
left at the top of the fermenter after the krausen falls.  To get an idea of
how bitter that stuff is, try taking a little taste of the foam that comes
out of the blowoff tube.

Your method of starting a siphon is fine.  I worry about all the handling,
though, so I use one of those starter pumps.  The racking cane has a seal
that slides down into a tube that's about an inch in diameter.  You put the
whole assembly into the carboy, then pump the cane up and down a couple of
times and the siphon starts.  It's really nice.  

I used to start siphons with a hot carboy fitted with a stoppered tube.  It
worked like this:  Connect some tubing to racking cane, then put the cane
into the beer to be racked.  Put a large plastic bucket of cold water on the
floor below the beer.  Fit a stopper with a piece of rigid plastic tubing.
Fill a carboy with hot water, then drain it and insert the stopper.  Connect
the siphon hose to the stoppered tube, then plunge the heated carboy into
the cold water.  As the air inside the carboy cools, it pulls a vacuum, and
that pulls beer up the racking tube and starts the siphon.  It always helps
to pinch the tubing where it joins the racking cane to get the tubing to
fill completely.  Once the siphon is started, the stopper has to be pulled
out of the carboy so it can vent.  The advantage to this method is minimal
handling of the tubes that contact the beer, and no foreign liquid.  The
disadvantage is that it takes a fair amount of preparation, the equipment is
bulky, and it's a bit messy.  On the other hand, the pump-start siphon thing
costs less than ten bucks, is reasonably compact and simple, is easy to
sanitize, and it works perfectly.  There's also a siphon starter that you
splice into your tubing that you shake to start.  I've never used one and
don't know how well they work.  Anyone else ever try one?

John



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:50:48 -0500
From: Dave & Joan King <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Primary Fermentation...how long?

Chuck D,

The big boys tell me to let the krausen fall (about 3 to 5 days for an
ale), and rack it.  It's not critical, in my book.  You're just looking
for the majority of dead yeast, cold break and hot break to fall out.
That's also a good time to harvest some yeast.

The darker, the less it'll show up, and you probably need to wait 2 or 3
weeks for any noticeable effects.  It's really the long term
decomposition that you want to avoid. I usually brew on a weekend or
Monday, and then the next weekend rack to the secondary.  Then the
secondary can go for many weeks if you're kegging, but not too long if
you're bottling, since you need some viable yeast for carbonation.

         Dave King (BIER)



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:43:10 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: more Zn/Oats ...

Graham Sander's has either misinterpreted my point or is
trying to substitute his own ..

<<,  the main
point has not been missed and should be re stated.

Dont just starting throwing unknown amounts of Zn in from
tablets, nutrient mixes, pills etc. This is a micronutrient where
talking about and it can be all too easy to get to toxic levels
that will be determential to your yeast growth.
>>

Strawman arguments don't sit well Graham - no one suggested
adding unknown or uncontrolled amounts.  My point was that
adding about 0.5ppm of Zn was unlikely to cause a problem
and in fact somewhat likely to cause an improvement.  Well
worth trying.  Why don't you try it before you condemn it
Graham.  I've been using this for several years w/o difficulty
and it does (under my conditions) make a significant
improvement.

- --

Scott Murman asked offline why commercial Zn compounds
added to the boiler would improve the result (if mostly they
remain in the break).  It's not entirely clear to my how/why
certain Zn compound may make it out of the boiler.  I have
seen papers in which significant fractions of free Zn ions do not
exit the boiler.  Much of the malt Zn may be invested in
organometalic compounds which end up in the break.  Perhaps
addition after initial break formation are unlikely to bind.  In short
it is not clear.

===

Bob the Beer man asks ...

<<
I was hoping that some of you more experienced brewers could tell me what
YOU
think the addition of a small quantity Oats to a recipie would be? For the
sake of the question, lets say 1/2 pound or so.
>>

I don't have huge experience with oats tho' I have malted some and
used these and raw oats in beers.  Oats are very high in oils
(9% vs raw barley  at  3.5%), and higher in protein than barley.
Like most raw grains the proteins are relatively inaccessible to
extraction and the levels of FAN  generated is quite low compared
to malt.  Oat oils can have a negative impact on head at high levels.
In smaller amounts oats, like other raw grains, add a  smoothness
& body which is nice if limited in extent (b-glucans?), and oats seem
to give more of this smoothness than others grains. Oats add relatively
little flavor and have 10-15% less extract potential than barley malt.

1/2lb in 5gal is IMO enough to get the positive impact w/o too much of the
negative one.

 -S





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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:37:10 -0500
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: HEATING THE REFRIGERATOR

Hello all:  I am at a complete loss right now.  My company has just taken
away the internet!  Therefore I cannot do any searching for info on my own.

Also, I just recently moved, and I am now experiencing a new problem even
before I brew.  I had a basement before - now I have a garage. Not that this
is the problem.  But with a refrigerator in cold weather it is.

My refrigerator is now at 45 degrees without even being turned on.  (living
in Pennsylvania.)  I am sure some of you have this problem too.  I need away
of regulating a heating element PROPERLY as to not burn down the house!

Please!  Help!  I no longer have access to the digest archives, and I can no
longer research my problem on my own.

Please do not send any LINKS as I cannot get to them. 

Thanks
Steve


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:06:02 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: PBW vs Copper Fact Finding

Hi Group,
Glen Pannicke wrote me over the weekend and said he had seen nearly the 
same thing, though in his case the solution didnt turn blue, but blue green 
crystals could be seen on the copper. He noticed it after a couple hours.

I ran an experiment yesterday where I mixed up a double strength batch of 
PBW (1 tablespoon in 3 quarts) and pour this into 4 quart size bowls.
1: Stainless Steel bowl with 2 brass parts
2: Stainless Steel bowl with 2 small pieces of copper tubing, one with 
silver solder tinned on it.
3: Glass bowl with two brass parts
4: Glass bowl with two pieces of copper tubing.

The 2 samples in each bowl consisted of one clean/shiny looking part and 
one that was dull and oxidized.

I checked them after a couple hours, and then this morning. Nothing. Nada. 
Zippo.
Only observation was that it looks like a white precipitate has formed. It 
is small and swirls up easily. I think it is excess PBW.

Today (Monday) I called Charlie Talley, the chemist at Five Star Chemicals 
that developed PBW, and described the observations.
This was the first time he had ever recieved comments about a solution 
turning blue in the presence of copper. (Or blue period.)
Interestingly, PBW was developed to address a problem at Coors where brass 
electrostatic filter plates were losing appreciable amounts of copper 
during cleaning. Using PBW as the cleaner dropped the copper loss by 99%, 
to virtually background water levels. So, Charlie was surprised to hear 
that copper or brass seems to be at issue here. We discussed possible 
chemical mechanisms, and really didn't come up with anything, other than it 
is probably source-water related. Perhaps your water is acidic or has a 
high sulfate content or you added gypsum to the brew that you were cleaning 
up after?

Anything ring a bell?
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com

Let there be Peace on Earth.



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:04:39 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: The Doctor Has Been

I have just spent an hilarious night with Doc Pivo who arrived in Burradoo
with prawns and oysters and a couple of samples of Swedish beer. We took him
over to Wes' (as we did Ray) to show him the scientific brewing centre of
Bowral.

I put a battery pack in Jill to give the impression she was real and we
wasted an awful lot of the night and early hours of the morning laughing and
cackling ridiculously out on the verandah, drinking peach wheat, rice lager
and Swedish beer.

At some ungodly hour the Doc let out a yelp and stared in disbelief as
Marilyn crawled from the bog heading straight for us. I was surprised to
learn he hadn't really taken her existence seriously. But now he has seen
with his own eyes!
Amazing what this peach wheat can do to your vision!

The Doc is off this morning heading south to Victoria, but hopes to be back
here for a couple of days before leaving Australia. We plan to do a joint
brew day together here at Burradoo Breweries.

We were going to do a joint HBD posting last night but the inspiration
somehow got lost after the 263rd beer. Maybe next time.

Now having finally met the man behind the name and having had a good laugh
together in real life, I can see why there are some folk on the HBD he
simply despairs of (or feels sorry for, if the real truth be known).

But I have warned the Doc, if Marilyn was a shock to him, just wait until he
sees what I have to show him down at the Wollondilly river! Even Graham
Sander's skin would crawl if he saw what I keep down there.

But of course Graham will never see it. Crossing that Queensland border is
not something he plans to do in this lifetime. Not after the treatment he
gave me in Townsville.

Now I'm wondering just who else in this HBD am I going to meet? Maybe a
surprise visit from Steve Alexander? Looking for "content free" ideas.

Cheers
Phil









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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:43:38 +1100
From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Whitelabs WLP 500 

Now that the weather in the Bush Capital is warming up a tad I've decided
that since I'm likely to get some complex flavours, like it or not, I may as
well deliberately try for some.  Did a couple of very quenching and
drinkable hefeweizens using WLP 300.  One disappeared in around 2 weeks
after carbonating and bottling and the other is carbonating in the keg.
Both were fermented at 22 to 24 C which seemed to boost the banana and
vanilla and soften the cloves. Full marks to Whitelabs for that yeast.

Next cab off the rank is a Trappiste and after tasting the rendition of the
style by fellow Canberra Brewer, Alan Brown, using WLP 500 I was more than a
little impressed and inspired.  Complex plum, banana and pear flavours to
name just the obvious ones. His recipe was pretty much the Wetmalle Dubbel
staight out of Wheeler and Protz's Classic European book except he used
flaked rice instead of white sugar, and WLP 500 yeast.  My attempt uses 500g
CSR Coffee Crystals (a type of slightly caramelly crystalline sugar) because
I haven't found a source of candy sugar in Oz. OG is around 1070.

My first question is does anyone have an idea of or even a well reasoned
argument for the origin of WLP 500?

Secondly, Whitelabs say on their website in the blurb on this yeast "Lower
temperatures (under 65F) will result in less fruity and more earthy beers.
Many authentic Trappist style beers are brewed at 75F."  I'm fermenting at
22C which is around 72F.  Any anecdotal stuff on temperatures and flavour
profiles would be appreciated.

Richard Pass
Canberra



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:14:38 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re:  Oktoberfest

Casey:

Do you take SG values?  I mostly ferment using eyes, ears & nose
(hydrometers are for mashing, I say) but since I have the racking cane out
anyway I always divert a splash to the hydrometer jar for a reading.  Then
when things look, sound, or smell funny I can make an informed guess.

I suspect your 15 days was effectively the primary.  When messing around
with temperatures it's hard to tell whether the bubbles are from
fermentation or warming up and gassing out.  I figure that if you take an SG
and it's not still 1.025 or higher, you might be done.  I don't think that
at this (presumably) late stage in the fermentation that a couple of days at
62F to check it out would really mess up the flavour.

Or you can brew up a second batch of lager, siphon yeast from your fermenter
to inoculate it, then when it hits krausen transfer 1-3 L of new krausen
beer to the original batch.  It's recommended by Noonan for smoother flavour
in the recipient batch, and it's a great excuse to brew another lager.  I've
planned batches just to do that, and it really does seem to help.

Sean
Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca




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