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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Insulating directly fired mash tun and kettle. (Petr Otahal)
re: HBD Database? (John_E_Schnupp)
Tomato Beer (er, wine actualy) (Tom Smit)
Spruce Tips ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
FL pubs, Alligator Ale ("Gordon Strong")
Ceramic pots reply (BOB Rutkowski)
re:pitchable tubes & diacetyl ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Be A Man ... (mohrstrom)
Re: 10 gallon stovetop batches (Aaron Robert Lyon)
RE: Draft Beer = Headache? (Brad)
Skunking (AJ)
natural gas burners (The Freemans)
Skeptics & distilled water ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
soldering brass to copper ("Bret Morrow")
spruce tips ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
re: drilling enamel pot ("Heavner, Lou [FRS/AUS]")
re:spruce tips (Jim Adwell)
re:Head Space and Carbonation (Jim Adwell)
Wyeast Pitchable Tubes vs. Smack Packs, Headache,Alligator Ale (happydog)
funny? who's calling MHing funny? like funny "Ha, ha!" funny? (Marc Sedam)
Wyeast tubes, bottled yeast ("Steven M. Claussen")
Bypass for Dave (kbooth)
Subject: Head Space and Carbonation ("Houseman, David L")
Can I get a description of what "clear" means (Robert Ellia)
RE: Distilled Water ("S. SNYDER")
CO2 and headspace/RIMS heating element question ("Stephen Alexander")
wyeast pitchable tubes ("Joseph Marsh")
Re: loaf mashing (steven thomas)
Unwanted smell from beer poured from tap (Richard Foote)
MCAB III ("Dave Sapsis")
hops to grow (Clark)
Some inputs on carbonation levels ("Dan Diana")
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:43:41 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: Insulating directly fired mash tun and kettle.
I have a directly fired (propane) three tier system and Im looking to
insulate my kegs (HLT, Mash, and Kettle) in a fairly permanent arrangement.
I was thinking of using fiberglass insulation of some sort.
Has anyone done this?
What thickness?
How easy is it to work with?
How fire resistant is it?
How effective is it?
Id appreciate any help on this, suggestions for other types of insulation
would be great too.
Cheers
Pete
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:35:56 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: HBD Database?
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
>Brewers & HBDers: for fun I've written a small app that pulls archived HBDs
>in and enters them in a database, by individual post.
<>
>Is an HBD full-text
>database something people would be interested in having on their desktop?
>How far back should such a database go? Already it's huge (~20 meg) with
>only three years worth of posts in it!
I wouldn't call 20M huge. Barely a dent in a 650M CD. I hadn't thought about
it before but it might be a good idea. Make the HBD downloadable and each year
I would add to my CD. Might make searching the archives less bothersome
that searching via the web.
John Schnupp, N3CNL
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:53:05 +0000
From: Tom Smit <lunica at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Tomato Beer (er, wine actualy)
Found a recipe, didn't even have to go outside Oz to do it!
http://www.peninsulahomebrewing.com.au/Wine_recipes.htm#TOMATO WINE
Haven't tried it but probably will. Any experts out there can improve on
that recipe for me?
Just bottled a shipload of tomatoes I'd sundried over the last four
days. Still tons of tomatoes left. Who says organic has lower yield????
Cheers
Tom Smit
Organic, non-hybrid, non GMO (genetically meddled organisms) Tiny Horses Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:28:55 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Spruce Tips
Patrick in Toronto wrote
"a friend of mine has requested a spruce ale so i thought i would give
it a try. a cow orker (ref: t.b.) has access to spruce tips via trees
in his folks yard. my question regards timing: should the tips be
harvested from trees in the winter, spring, summer or fall? surely the
composition of the tips
varies through the growing season and possibly tips from a particular
time would be most appropriate."
I missed finding a bottle of Alba spruce ale from Scotland on my recent
trip to Ottawa. It was listed in the vintages catelogue as one of four
in a "Historic Ales from Scotland" gift pack. I wanted a comparison
and for example my own first spruce tip brew experiment. Sold out.
See if you can get a bottle if you are interested there in the big
smoke. Maybe you already tried some. Are there others on the market?
My plan is to pick tips at a very specific time in spring based upon a
swedish exchange student's habits of twenty years ago. Walking home
from high school one day in spring with a bunch of friends, he says the
swedish equivalent of "wow," dives into a stand of spruces we are
passing and starts eating the tips. He explained that when the brown
paper coverings of the tips are just cracking and the tips inside as
still pale and soft, they are quite mild and snackable. We all tried
them and he was right. So, in terms of use in my spruce brew 2001,
that's when I'll be picking them. Happens around snow melting time,
maple syrup time.
Alan McLeod in PEI, Canada
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:31:54 -0500
From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at earthlink.net>
Subject: FL pubs, Alligator Ale
In HBD # 3538, Frank Russo mentions Alligator Ale and wanted to know about
its source. It's probably from a chain of brewpubs called Hops!. They
opened one nearby a couple years ago and said it was their 63rd restaurant.
They said they make "lager-like ales". I'd avoid this place. They serve
their beers at about 33F, none of their beers had any flavors (I thought
their name should be "Hops?" not "Hops!"), and the "brewer" was an ex-chef
without any training in brewing. In short, it's a "concept" restaurant with
little connection to brewing.
Last year I was in Naples FL (SW FL) and found it nearly impossible to find
any real beer. No pubs except Hops!, which had an irritating Starbucks-like
ubiquitousness to it. Only one package store with anything but the usual
mega-swill, and that was a half hour drive. Most stores I called told me,
"Microbrews? That fad's over. We got the coldest, cheapest beer in the
state!" (here we see their target market).
One positive note. I was able to find at this one oasis of beer store in a
desert of idiots, a wonderful American pale ale from a Miami-based micro
called Hurricane Reef. They claimed to have won a silver medal at a recent
GABF, which wouldn't surprise me. Their pale ale had a nice caramel flavor
and a refreshing Cascade finish. While I only saw one of their beers, I'd
certainly try any of their others.
If you're trying to find decent places to drink, I'd first try
www.pubcrawler.com and see if they have any suggestions. But set your
expectations low in Florida. They seem to take beer about as seriously as
counting.
Gordon Strong
Beavercreek, OH
strongg at earthlink.net
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:53:51 -0800 (PST)
From: BOB Rutkowski <bob--o at excite.com>
Subject: Ceramic pots reply
My local home brew supply shop went out of business and I was able to pick
up two brand new 8.25 gal enamel pots (1-boiling kettle/1-HLT) for a very
cheap price. My dilema is that I want to drill the pots in order to fit
them with a spigot and I'm afraid of chipping the baked enamel coating. My
only thought was to put duct tape on either side of the pot, and start with
a small sharp drill bit and progressively use larger bits.
Thoughts on this process? Does anyone have any experience or any ideas on
drilling enamel?
Prost,
Marty
Hello, First post for me, though I glean great info from this place. My wife
is a ceramic engineer, so I asked her about your enamel question. Here is
her answer...
yes he is right...it will chip...He is on the right track though...the duct
tape will help lessen the chippage however it probably will not prevent
it...will the rubber gaskets for the spigots not cover the chippage and make
the pot sanitary and safe?
Hope it helps,
Bob-O
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:47:04 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re:pitchable tubes & diacetyl
The figures I've heard for cell counts in the pitchable tubes are in
the vicinity of 40 billion viable cells. Assuming a cell density of
100 million/ml in a starter at high kraeusen; pitching a tube directly
would be equivilent to pitching a 400ml starter, not anywhere
close to the proper pitching rate for a lager. If the cell density of
the active starter was 90 million/ml this would be a starter of
444 ml, still not a proper pitching rate. The nice thing about the
tubes is; with that size you can properly pitch a starter of up to
4 liters in one step and have the proper pitching rate for an ale or
lager in under 24 hours.
----------------------------------------
John Peed tells of a beer with excessive diacetyl taste. He mentioned
the grist was >>(9# pale, 2# Munich, 1# lite crystal),<<.
I wonder, was the crystal fresh? I've read that older crystal can give
a flavor that many people confuse with diacetyl. I would think that the
lighter colors of crystal would be more prone to this confusion since
they have a more butterscotch-like character to start with.
The yeast 1056 is certainly a good choice if you want to avoid diacetyl.
Unless the culture had significant petit mutants I wouldn't expect that
to be the cause.
N.P. Lansing
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:02:56 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com
Subject: Be A Man ...
Mike is driven indoors by the weather:
> I have this crazy idea of boiling a 10 gallon batch on my
> NG 4-burner stovetop (weather's been a bitch outside).
C'mon, Mike, be a MAN! #;-]
There is nothing quite so bracing as firing up the pot outdoors on a 15degF
(-22degC) morning. It will really put you in touch with your primal
ancestors. However - be _very_ careful about what you might touch with wet
hands. On the up side, screams for help carry further when the air is cold
and dry ...
Mark (exploring "Ice-Brewed Beer") in Kalamazoo
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:20:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: 10 gallon stovetop batches
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:31:20 -0500 Mike Spinelli wondered
"I have this crazy idea of boiling a 10 gallon batch on my NG 4-burner
stovetop (weather's been a bitch outside). Anybody do this? If so, what
kind of pot do you use. I was thinking that a square or rectangular
vessel would do best to cover all 4 burners."
This is the only way I brew. It may take a little longer to bring
everything up to the appropriate temperature, but the results are the
same. Anyway, I use a 15 gallon Polarware brewpot to cover the 4 burners
and it does so pretty well with its 18" diameter. I could see the
possibility of getting a bit more efficiency out of the heat source with
something square, but that's for the physics geeks out there to argue
about. All I know is that it works and I can brew comfortably no matter
what the weather. Hope this helps.
-Aaron
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:42:22 -0600
From: Brad <bradr at webcatering.com>
Subject: RE: Draft Beer = Headache?
I read someplace (I think on the budwieser web site?) that the kegged
beer is not pasturized while the bottled/canned beer is. I have no idea
if this would have anything to do with the headaches, but it is a
difference in the two...
Brad R.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:57:10 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Skunking
Several people pointed out that skunking is not an oxidation reaction
yet apparently some breweries ameliorate it with sodium borohydride
which is one hell of a reducing agent. ???
A.J.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:59:24 -0600
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: natural gas burners
Also take a look at the higher output burner from Precision Brewing
(NAYY):
http://www.pbsbeer.com/pbs/pbscat.html
I have one of these on natural gas and the output is rated at around
45,000 btu on that heat source. They do not have a pic so look at the
following for the burner setup on "the perfesser".
http://www.mirageport.com/potsus/newburner1.jpg
This burner rocks....
Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:02:06 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Skeptics & distilled water
Doc Pivo wrote:
>I am sort of guessing that it is this type of exageration, and oxymoronic
>statements, that has made more than just I, just a teeny, tiny bit
>scepticle of some of our more well known librarians ability to interpret
>things for us.
Were it not for scepticism, science, as we know it today, would probably not
exist. From listening to those great men and women who challenged the
beliefs of thier day we now know that the world is not flat, the sun does
not revolve around the earth and that yeast do not "evacuate ethyl alcohol
from their bowels and carbon dioxide from their urinary organs".
It wasn't until recently that I disproved the common belief that you will
grow hair on your palms if you play with it too much. WRONG! You will
develop callouses - not grow hair.
So Doc, please... always remain a skeptic. It is always a good thing to
challenge your knowledge. Failed challenges reinforce, successful ones
enlighten.
Steven Jones writes of distilled water:
>Can a sealed jug of distilled water off of the grocery store shelf be
>considered sterile enough to use for yeast management?
It very well might be, but you cannot trust it 100% unless it is labeled as
sterile. If it is distilled, then it is pure water and the method of
distillation ensures sterility - until it is packaged. I would suggest
looking for the water in the baby food aisle in your supermarket. I should
be distilled, sterile and more expensive per gallon than gasoline.
If you turn into a real culturing homo, like me, you'll eventually want the
large pressure cooker to make slants and dishes, next you'll want a little
cube fridge for your yeasts... it's a sickness - really ;-)
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen at pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"Designs which work well on paper rarely do so in actual practice"
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:16:36
From: "Bret Morrow" <bretmorrow at hotmail.com>
Subject: soldering brass to copper
Greeting all,
I am almost finished making a series of valves that will allow me to easily
switch between recirculating the mash liquid and introducing the sparge
water from the HLT. I said 'almost finsihed' because I have got a small
leak on 1 of the 3 valves. My question is there a better solder for
copper/brass connections than the usual 95% tin solder? More details are
better!
Sorry, I have nothing to add on GM, Aussies, or even clinitest!
TIA,
Bret Morrow,
Hamden, CT
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:19:19 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: spruce tips
Patrick asks about Spruce tips :"my question regards timing: should the tips
be harvested from trees in
the winter, spring, summer or fall?"
Most definitely spring. The tips should be small, bright green and very
tender, preferably with the waxy protecting tip still semi-attached (remove
it, but it's a helpful indicator of age).
The spruce beer I made from Sitka spruce from the Left Coast was great. The
spruce beer I made from the same recipe but with tips from an unknown
"Northern Spruce" growing in my back yard in Central Saskatchewan was foul.
Way too resiny for my tastes, but not too far off the tang of the
commercially available spruce soda pop.
Unless I can get Sitka, I now prefer Spruce Essence which, although not
nearly as fun, provides a standardized extract and predictable results.
Hope this helps!
cheers,
Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiae sugant."
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:00:43 -0600
From: "Heavner, Lou [FRS/AUS]" <Lou.Heavner at frco.com>
Subject: re: drilling enamel pot
It occurs to me that it might be possible to score the porcelain on both the
inside and outside like you would do to cut glass. I don't know if it would
work and have never tried it and don't intend to drill any holes in my
enamel pot to find out. Use a punch first to be able to identify the center
of the hole inside and out before drilling. As long as the score is small
enough to be covered by your bulkhead fittings/gaskets/etc it wouldn't
really matter if it exactly matched the final hole and should probably be a
bit larger than the eventual hole to make sure you don't accidentally drill
beyond the score. You might also be able to use glue or silicone sealant or
something like that instead of tape to minimize chipping of the enamel
during drilling.
Cheers!
Lou Heavner - Austin, TX
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:02:25 -0500
From: Jim Adwell <jimala2 at ptd.net>
Subject: re:spruce tips
You need to harvest the new tips in the spring; mature needles don't taste
good. The new needles are a brighter, lighter green than the mature ones.
I usually harvest a few extra lbs. and freeze them for later use. I have
several different species of spruce tree, but I don't know which particular
ones.
Cheers, Jim
"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it." -- George W.
Bush, Reuters, May 5, 2000
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:08:34 -0500
From: Jim Adwell <jimala2 at ptd.net>
Subject: re:Head Space and Carbonation
I've tried various amounts of headspace in my beers over the years,
including no headspace at all, and can't see any difference in carbonation
one way or another.
The only reason commerical beers have headspace in bottles is to allow for
expansion of the beer during pasteurization.
Cheers, Jim
"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it." -- George W.
Bush, Reuters, May 5, 2000
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:53:33 GMT
From: happydog at nations.net
Subject: Wyeast Pitchable Tubes vs. Smack Packs, Headache,Alligator Ale
>We bring the Tubes in by special order and ensure they are used within 3
>months, but plan for use within 1 month. We now take extra care with our
>Tubes to ensure consistent temperatures. We think they are great, they are
>convenient and were very popular with our fresh wort customers, but they do
>have a higher risk factor. We prefer Wyeast Tubes to others simply because
>we have had no problems in shipping with Wyeast, whereas we have had
>consistent problems with other pitchable vials.
This is exactly the opposite of the way things have turned out for us.
I sell only WhiteLabs liquid yeast and have had VERY few failures.
(maybe 2 in 2 years and both folks stated they pitched to hot) My
customers insist on White Labs yeast and I have had very few go past
the "use by date" On the other hand I have a refrigerator full of out
of date smack packs and when I sold them MANY customers would have to
delay their brewing date/time in order for the smack pack to swell.
The amount of calls I get now stating "I pitched my yeast 24 hours
ago, and I have nothing happening" has dropped to maybe one every two
weeks down from almost daily!
Consistent temperatures when storing any yeast is all ways a good
idea.
White labs has fixed the problem of leaks when shipping, by changing
the vial the yeast comes in. Its now comes in what looks to me to be a
"soda bottle blank" or an un blown pet soda bottle. If you go to the
White labs web site you can see the ways they tested this new bottle.
(one was to throw it against a brick wall as hard as they could. Do
that with a wyeast tube!) I have shipped them and they don't leak.
I get my White labs yeast directly from White labs in CA. every other
friday by FedEx in a styrofoam lined box with cold gel packs and more
styrofoam "peanuts" on top . The yeast is still cool when I get it
(and I'm on the coast in SC) and the dates on the vials are from 2 to
3 days ago. This is much fresher than the way I used to get smack
packs (from my wholesaler via truck) so perhaps this was my problem.
I do have one customer that insist I special order the smack packs for
him.
Anywho. If I sound like I'm big on White Labs Yeast that's because I
am. When I sold smack packs I always felt some what uneasy about them.
I always felt like I would be hearing from that customer about the
yeast in a day or two. With the White labs I don't fell that way at
all, It works and its great.
Headache with draft beer.
I have found that if a beer is filtered I will get a slamming head
ache. If its not filtered I'm fine. Yeast is good for you (vit B 12)
and keeps you from becoming dehydrated. (Unless you get to much and
your not used to it, but I won't go there)
Alligator Ale
Alligator Ale is brewed by "Hops" However I don't understand the
name. They don't seem to use them ;-). I prefer to call the place.
"That brew pub that makes 4 beers that are all exactly the same except
for the color" They also blend those beers to make 2 other beers that
are the same except for the color <grin>
Wil Kolb
Happy Dog Brewing Supplies
401 W.Coleman Blvd
Mt Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084
1-800-528-9391
happydog at nations.net
www.maltydog.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:07:53 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: funny? who's calling MHing funny? like funny "Ha, ha!" funny?
Welcome to the world of mash hopping. Hopefully it won't be your
last trip.
Some of the flavors you've described are things I've experienced
as well. The "fuller" flavor of the hopping is certainly
something that comes through well in my beers. But the diacetyl
I'm not so sure about. I didn't use Cascade for many years (I
called it "Cat-cade" for the catty smell I always perceived) but
recently did a two gallon batch as a way to get rid of some older
hops and make a yeast starter. The beer did have a pungent
grapefruity aroma and flavor, much like I'd expect from
Cascades. I didn't notice anything unusual. In fact, I quite
liked it.
I certainly believe what you're saying, but that there might be
other sources for the problem. It could be that the hops were
old, but I'll assume they're fresh. It could be that the type of
hop flavor created when using Cascades as a mash hop are not up
your alley. Dunno. Friends of mine who MH with Cascades seem to
like it, but again...that's anecdotal.
Any help out there from the collective?
-Marc
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:16:46 -0800
From: "Steven M. Claussen" <sclaussen at mail.kindercare.com>
Subject: Wyeast tubes, bottled yeast
Regarding the Wyeast tubes, just a data point: I have used the tubes
three times with what I consider superb results; i.e., less than 12
hours from pitching to regular airlock activity. However, because I
make 10 gallon batches, I first pitch the tube into a liter of wort the
night before I brew and aerate the starter like crazy - this likely
makes a difference. For reference, the only Wyeast tube yeast I've used
is #1272 (American II), and no tube has been more than 2 months old.
On saving yeast in a bottle: try putting an airlock, instead of a cap,
on the bottle. I've done this, using an alcohol soaked cotton ball
rather than water in the airlock, and had great results.
Steve Claussen in PDX
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:16:18 -0500
From: kbooth <kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Bypass for Dave
Please give our regards to Brewing Brother Dave B.and
tell him we miss his imput and wish him well.
cheers, jim booth
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:33:24 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Subject: Head Space and Carbonation
This certainly sounds logical to me. But my experience has been that
partially filled bottles seem to carbonate to a greater degree than those
that are "over" filled with very little head space. Does the CO2 pressure
practice seem to be at odds. Perhaps we need some real experiments to prove
this and discover the cause and effect relationship?
David Houseman
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:26:25 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Head Space and Carbonation
rdbedwards at hotmail.com said "you're supposed to only leave a
small headspace in the neck of the bottle because if you don't, the
bottle is likely to overcarbonate.
If you fill a bottle halfway with primed beer it will either explode or blow
the cap off into your eye when you try to open it." Chuck P is also
quoted as saying the same thing in The Joy but at attributing this to
yeast.
It seems to me that carbonation is related to head space but
rather in the exact opposite way. Ok so what is carbonation?
Dissolved CO2 right. And how does the CO2 get dissolved? It's
basically where you'll have so much pressure in the head space that
some of the CO2 goes into solution. (Well basically that's how it
would be in a keg if you just turned on the pressure. In a bottle
the CO2 is in solution from the start and reaches an equilibrium with
the head space.) So is everybody with me? Ok, now if you have a
larger head space then there is a greater capacity for CO2 and
therefor not as much will go/stay in solution. A smaller head space
more CO2 in the solution given equal priming/volumes of gas. Anyone
else with some thoughts?
Brad
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:13:23 -0500
From: Robert Ellia <rellia at TH.CI.SHREWSBURY.MA.US>
Subject: Can I get a description of what "clear" means
There has been quite a change of contributors on the "Brewery's"
bulletin board and seemingly, fewer responses to my last few
questions. I appreciate the ones that I did get. The "good old"
contributors seem not to be as active so I will try this location to
get some information. SO!! With my first partial mash I did a
batch sparge of four pounds of grain. I recirculated the runnings till
clear but never really knew what is considered "clear". Initially,
it was obvious that it was not clear, (lots of crap in it). As it
cleared there was less "crap" but it never got as clear as the beer is
out of the fermenter. Should it be??? TIA
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:23:53 -0500
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com>
Subject: RE: Distilled Water
Steve:
Oddly enough that reminds me of a story when I was working for a few months
in your neck of the woods, Morristown, TN. Some good stories there...
Anyway, everyday I had to go to the local Food City and pick up distilled
water, in the 1 gallon plastic jugs, about 10 or so, for some environmental
work I was doing, for cleaning and such. One day I noticed several of the 1
gallon jugs on the shelf were VERY green. Obviously a bacteria
contamination. Just a few of the 50 or so jugs but...
I guess it's the old risk vs. reward. You can certainly take your chances
(the odds are in your favor I think) but the down side is your yeast could
go south.
Scott Snyder
Trumbull, CT
ssnyder at lbghq.com
Rotten Rotti Brewing Company
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:48:24 -0500
From: "Jones, Steven T" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Distilled water
Greetings, all.
I've got a question for the water experts out there:
Can a sealed jug of distilled water off of the grocery store shelf be
considered sterile enough to use for yeast management? If so, it would be
quite nice to be able to spend $.80 for water rather than boiling/cooling or
pressure canning water to manage yeast.
Thanks,
Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
36:30:8 N, 82:31:57 W
(5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian)
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew
- -------
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:24:26 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: CO2 and headspace/RIMS heating element question
Pete Calinski conjectures ...
>Actually, I believe the
>amount of CO2 in the beer is the same either way.
I, Al Korzonas and others did some experiments on this a long while back in
the HBD. It appears that the overfilled bottles either undercarbonate or
at least carbonate much more slowly. Altho' not directly measured, there
are very clear signs that the underfilled beers (not just the headspace) had
more carbonation (by taste and post pour fizz). Filling the headspace w/
CO2 (eliminating most O2) before capping had no impact on the result.
I think that shortly after reaching saturation of 1atm of CO2 , bubbles move
CO2 into the headspace , and in the overfill case, the headpressure quickly
becomes high enough to slow or stop fermentation. The head CO2 should go
back into solution and reduce the head pressure and allow more fermentation,
but this could take time and so slow the carbonation. This explanation is
just a guess and a handwaving argument with some holes, but the phenomena is
quite real and reproducible.
- ---
OK RIMSers - a question.
Many hot water heating elements (in the US anyway) have a male threaded
attachment point. This threading appears to match that of 1 inch (FIP)
standard used in copper fitting, but lacking the taper. For this reason
the heating element won't nicely screw into a 1" copper FIP fitting.
Should I buy a 1" IP tap or die to resize one or the other - or is there a
simpler solution that I am missing ?
-Steve
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:36:01 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: wyeast pitchable tubes
Hi all,
I've used 4 tubes so far and they all took off within 24hrs and preformed
well. In fact I pitched one yesterday at 3:30 pm and it was working this
morning.
Beer is an ESB at sg 1.052.
Some things to consider...I took the yeast tube out of the fridge at 7:00 am
so it could warm slowly and throughly, wort was at 70F, yeast was at 70F
also. Oxygenation was likely less then my normal level since I have a new CF
chiller. I was useing an immersion and ice bath then pumping to the primary
with one of those siphon starter pumps. That really gets the O2 in there.
Good brewing,
Joe
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:46:46 -0500 (EST)
From: steven thomas <drstrangebrew at mail.com>
Subject: Re: loaf mashing
Jeff and other fans of archaic beers--
I have a beer more along the lines of the process Anchor used for their
Ninkasi (loaf baked on an open sheet followed by wet mash with additional
enzymatic malt) about ready to move to the secondary. Not having tested the
effeciency before, I just followed the procedure of Papazian's second book.
The beer is attenuating nicely, has good taste, and excellent foam
stability.
There is a small beer (1036 OG) off the second gyle of the same mash, now
finished. It has a nice toasted taste and good body for its gravity. The
foam stability is good, but not outlandish. The surprise is the foam cling
on the glass; a mousse-like thickness and persistance like nothing I've seen
before.
I would think of following the bake with a wet mash if the loaf dries much
or if there is any amount of non-enzymatic starch source in the grist. (I
doubt the enzymes are too mobile given the pasty concistency.) An iodine
test will tell all.
As to yeast, I used Saison Dupont; a bit of a wimpout maybe, but probably
not too far off. To me the main points are: a complete mash is possible in
the loaf; enzymes survive the process; no extraneous tastes seem to arise.
- --Steve
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:15:21 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Unwanted smell from beer poured from tap
Barry writes:
>I have kegged my beer twice now. All seems ok. The only problem is that
>the first 1/2 glass has a smell. The following glasses are fine. If you
>leave the tap for about 30min, and then pour another glass, the smell is
>back again. The smell is strong and the beer has a taint to it when
>drinking.
>I have cleaned everything and sterilized the tap and all hoses.
It would be helpful to know what kind of smell is being noticed. If we
assume that everything was, indeed, cleaned and sterilzed, then it could be
that something is happening during the stagnant contact time between pours.
Something is being "picked up" between the keg and the faucet outlet. I'm
not sure this is it, but I will relate my recent experience with a cider I
now have on tap in hopes it might provide some insight.
I had carbonated a 7% alc. cider and hooked it up to my draft system. I
have the standard ball lock corny fittings, clear vinyl hose, and
chrome-plated beer faucet. I had served a draft cider from the same system
before and everything seemed fine. With this one though, I noticed more of
a taste problem than aroma problem. It had a bitter, metallic off-taste.
I reason it was coming from prolonged contact time with brass components of
the beer faucet. I figure it must be eating away at the brass due to low
pH. I switched to a plastic cobra faucet. Problem solved. Not sure if
this experience sheds any light with respect to beer.
Some questions:
Does your beer have a low pH, such as perhaps a lambic? Does your beer
faucet have components prone to attack from low pH?
Hope this helps.
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:31:01 -0800
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: MCAB III
Dear Folks,
While it may seem like nothing has been happening, works are under way for
MCAB III. A hodgepodge of folks and clubs fom the Northern California area
are collectively putting this on, with the help of numerous sponsors.
The following is certain:
Dates: April 27-29, 2001
Location: Pyramid Brewing Co, in Berkeley, CA
We are working on the exact shcedule, but the competition will include the
judging, technical sessions, vendors, and an awards dinner/party.
We are currently workingout a deal with a local hotel and will post those
details as soon as they become available. All materials pertaining to the
comp will be posted up at the MCAB III website at
www.bayareamashers.com/mcab3. We are still compiling the list of Qualified
Brewers, and will be getting notices and information on submissions very
soon.
General questions should be directed to Mike Riddle who is the comp
organizer -- riddle at sonic.net
Judges wishing to participate should contact the Judge Coordinator, Russ
Wiggelsworth -- RussWig at aol.com
Dave Brattstrom is handeling sponsorship, so any of you gnerous folks
wishing to help out should contact him. He's at davidb at cdepot.net
I'm in charge of the speakers, and the general theme of the technical
sessions will be on beer evaluation, flavor/aroma identification, beer
flavor space, and judging mechanics. If you'd like to be considered for a
speaker slot on one of these or a related topic, please get in touch.
You'll be hearing a lot more in the coming weeks, and it looks like it will
be a top flight gig. I know I enjoyed putting names to faces for numenrous
HBD'ers in St. Louis, so hopefully you'll consider coming out. The Bay Area
is usually beautiful in the Spring, and in addition to the event, theres
always lots of other interesting things to do.
cheers,
- --dave sapsis
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:00:19 -0500
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: hops to grow
Hi List,
Here's a question to get a little discussion started (just what this group
needs, right). If you could grow three or four different varieties of
hops, what would you grow?
In my garden I have 7 bines that will be going into their third year. I
have three Nuggett, 3 Willamette and 1 Cascade. The Nuggett produced a
huge crop of very potent cones last year, but I am not sure that I like
their flavor. Maybe I am using too much. The Willamette set a good crop
too but they were quite friable after picking and somewhat grassy in my
beer. The Cascade also did pretty well, but once again the flavor was not
what I get from pellets or plugs that I buy. All the hops were thoroughly
dried on window screening and tightly packed in glass jars and put in the
freezer. No sprays were used at any time during their growth.
I brew mostly ales but I like to try other styles from time to time. I
thought it would be interesting to get a consensus from the list of what
the most popular varieties to grow might be. Any thoughts?
Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, NY
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:01:19 -0800
From: "Dan Diana" <dands at ftconnect.com>
Subject: Some inputs on carbonation levels
In reference to Benjamin's query, I can't comment on the effect of
pressure on yeast but there is a bit of physics that explain why you observe
the correlation of pressure to carbonation level.
The absorbtion of a slightly soluble gas such as CO2 into a liquid is
described by Henry's law. According to Henry's law, the CO2 concentration is
proportional to the CO2 partial pressure above the liquid. In an equation
form:
p(CO2) = k*[xCO2] (1)
where:
-P(CO2) is the CO2 partial pressure in the headspace
-k is referred to as Henry's constant
-xCO2 is the concentration of CO2 is solution in molecules/volume
Therefore, assuming that you have two kegs of differing carbonation
levels, Henry's law would predict that the partial pressures above the beer
[i.e. p(CO2)] in the headspace are different.
Note that I have referred to the partial pressure of CO2. This is
becuase of the fact that the gas in the headspace is comprised mostly of
CO2 but it could have air or nitrogen in it. Fortunately, Dalton's law
states that the total pressure of gas observed is the sum of the partial
pressures of the component gases. Mathematically,
p(total) = p(CO2) + p(air) +
p(other gases) (2)
If you cut to the chase, what this tells you is that one thing you could
do to help get more consistently carbonated beers is to pick a fill volume
in the keg and optimize p(total) until you get the desired carbonation
level. This is purely empirical but it worked for me.
Further, I have noticed that when I get a beer carbonated to the
appropriate level using this method that the carbonation level remains
pretty consistent through the keg's life. In other words, the dependence on
headspace volume seems pretty minimal to my eye and palate.
Lastly, the hit or miss carbonation of bottle beers which resulted from
using wort and yeast to carbonate is what drove me to a keg to begin with.
For more details and math, refer to George Fix's principles of Brewing
Science.
Dan
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:30:43 -0500
From: "Benjy Edwards" <rdbedwards at hotmail.com>
Subject: CO2 and headspace size
First off - sorry for the length of this post! I guess I'm having
trouble putting my thoughts into words...
Has anyone noticed the phenomenon of varying carbonation level due to
headspace size? There's not much in the literature about it.
I'm talking about how the level of carbonation will vary depending on
the size of the headspace above the beer. This is most often thought of
when bottling - you're supposed to only leave a small headspace in the neck
of the bottle because if you don't, the bottle is likely to overcarbonate.
If you fill a bottle halfway with primed beer it will either explode or blow
the cap off into your eye when you try to open it.
This phenomenon also carries over to kegs - I've been having trouble
getting my corny kegged beer to carbonate fully, and I think it's because I
fill the keg right up to the bottom of the short (gas in) dip tube. I have
only seen this discussed in one of my 30+ homebrewing books - Papazian in
NCJHB says:
"My own observations have indicated that a bottle that is filled right
to the top, with no air space whatsoever, will not develop enough
carbonation. An air space of 1/2 inch will develop the same carbonation as
a bottle of beer with 2 inches of air space. A bottle that is half filled
with beer may become excessively carbonated and very dangerous if it
explodes. My educated explanation is that insufficient or excessive
carbonation, due to over- or underfill is related to the fact that yeast
activity is inhibited by pressure. A small air space (overfill) will
quickly develop high pressure while a large air space (underfill) will not
develop enough pressure to inhibit yeast activity."
While I agree with his observations of this concept, I don't agree
with his rationale. Why would yeast be affected by headspace pressure?
However, I have yet to come up with a satisfactory alternative hypothesis.
Anyone have any ideas? Does all this mean I should just not fill my kegs so
much? What are your practices in filling corny kegs vs. carbonation levels?
Thanks for any and all information!
regards,
Benjamin Edwards
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