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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Holsten's Hops? (Ant Hayes)
Re: Stuck Sparge ("Joel King")
How about Riggwelter? ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
RE: HopBack ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
re: mashout ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Fermented Pepsi (Nathan Kanous)
Re: Guinness et al ("Roger Flanders")
The solution to pollution... (Mike.Szwaya)
Responsible Brewing ("Penn, John")
Laaglander DME ("Steven Parfitt")
re: Pollution Concerns ("Houseman, David L")
Copper Cooling coils (Matthew t Marino)
pollution clarification! ("Benjy Edwards")
Re: Laaglander DME ("quoyle")
Thermometer Calibration ("Bret Mayden")
Fermented Pepsi ("Bret Mayden")
Re: BJCP exam schedule ("elvira toews")
Re: Diacetyl - what is it? (Jeff Renner)
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:49:13 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Holsten's Hops?
Does anyone know what hops are used to make Holsten's lager?
Ant Hayes
Gauteng
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:50:41 -0000
From: "Joel King" <joel_d_king at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stuck Sparge
How did you crush your malt? Maybe your mill is at fault, too fine a crush
for a decoction. -- Joel --
>>From: cmmundt at AircraftBraking.com
>>I have a question about stuck sparges... I did a triple decoction >>mash
>>with very little difficulty.... But, after extracting about 1.5 >>gallons
>>the sparge was stuck.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:50:29 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: How about Riggwelter?
Recently when in a jurisdiction that actually has good liqour stores -
Ontario - I got to have a Riggwelter (I think that's the spelling) from
the Black Sheep Brewery in Yorkshire. As with the Old Speckled Hen
postings, has anyone tried to make this ale? How about with extract?
Mucho Thanko,
Alan McLeod
PS: Following on a thought from the ecological thread, spent grains do
make great compost!
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:31:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: HopBack
Joe,
If you note my post:
"If it is made anything like their MaxiChiller it is a great
product(As the Maxi is far better than the inferior copies out there
like the ChillZilla that Anita from Great Fermentations makes). "
You will find that I simply said that it (ChillZilla) was inferior to
the MaxiChiller. I am sure your copy of the original does an fine
job of chilling. As for me, I will stick with the original; The
MaxiChiller.
C'ya!
-Skotrat
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:36:06 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: mashout
SA posted>>
BA is denaturing with a half-life of say 12 minutes roughly at 67C. At 77C
this halflife is roughly 5 minutes. The initial activity of BA at 77C is
~double the activity at 67C. The instantaneous activity over time can be
plotted:
|M
| M
| M
| NNNM
| M NNNN
| M NNNNN
___________M______ NNN__
5 10 15 20
<<
The big problem with this is your half-life times are wrong.
>From an old digest,
>>>>In a rather interesting paper in JIB v97, pp85 demonstrates
for a 1.25qt/lb, 65C/149F mash the half-lives are:
BA - 16 minutes
AA - 42 minutes
At 75C, the half lives are roughly 14/16 minutes for BA/AA.
(tho' the BA figure looks high/anomalous)
At 80C, the half lives are 7min/14min
At 85C, it's 6min/12min and
At 90C, it's <5min/7min. <<<<
The halflife at 67C you stated as 12 minutes is inaccurate, that would
be a more appropriate half-life at 76C. The half-life of 5 minutes at 76C
equally off, that would be for say 85C. This would skew the graph to the
right significantly. And utilizing the full 2x increase of activity ignores
the product inhibition that is everpresent.
SA>>>From another BRF study the BA denaturation FACTOR is
91% loss in a 1 hour mash at 65C, and 6 minutes for a comparable
loss at 80C. That's 10X diff in halflife RATE over 15C or a 4.6X change
in RATE per 10C.<<
NL>> First, that's not the RATE, that's the quantitative effect through
time.
The half-life _is_ the rate of decay. But to work the numbers in the
manner you described and to keep in the real-world range of mash
temperatures; my calculator comes up with a 87.5% loss at 65C after
48 minutes and 87.5% loss at 75C in 42 minutes. Which, using their
math, would be a factor of 1.142. So with a 10C degree rise in mash temp
you get about 100% increase in BA activity and a 12.5% decrease in BA life
expectancy through typical mash temperatures.
SA>>The total fermentables was not the basis of my statement, Del.
Rather it's the ratio of glucose:maltose:maltotriose produced.
They were 7:44:15 by weight, so roughly 7:22:5 by molar
concentration. You cannot explain so much maltose except by
a lot of beta-amylosis.<<
NL...To quote the passage I was refering to,>>The paper's author
calculates the attenuation (fermentability) of the mash
liquor as it hits 70C as 68.2%, and in the final post mashout liquor at
70.3%. Interestingly almost all of the added fermentability occurred after
the wort hit 78C/172F with 72% of the addition as maltose. The implication
is that beta-amylase was quite active during mashout rest at 78C in this
case.<<
NL... No where in there did you refer to total carbohydrate profile, you
were referring
to a small (2.1%) increase in maltose at 78C. In the Tuborg study there was
a
60 minute rest at 63C, that alone would account for 44% of wort
carbohydrates
as maltose.
Again your obfuscation does not prove your point.
>>NL>"hmmm 154 wasn't hot enough, I wanted more maltiness. I'll kick
>it up to 156 next time."
SA>>That is exactly wrong. Bumping 154->156F for a 45' rest
>>moves farther from the 45' BA optimal temp and so decreases total
>>BA activity.
Are you too busy saying everyone is wrong to look at what you post?
Raising the mash temperature _doesn't_increase maltiness????
One bad data point throws out the whole premise.
Sorry, your rules.
Have a nice life.
NPL
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:01:39 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Fermented Pepsi
Hey there's an adventurous lad! Ferment Pepsi. That's probably the best
thing to do with Pepsi. If you like cola, then drink Coca-Cola (did I
mention that I like a touch of diacetyl in some beers?). ;^)
Anyhow, I got an e-mail a while ago from another list I'm on that has
nothing to do with beer, beverage or anything. It contained a recipe from
Pepsi that was apparently unveiled as a part of a bankruptcy court case or
something (see, I told you Coca-Cola was better).
I was surprised at what I saw. Lemon, lime, and one of the anise flavored
things (was it licorice, or star anise?). Anyhow, I was a bit surprised so
I payed attention with the next bottle I bought and it was there...the
citrus flavors. The anise is very subtle and not like you might
expect. Then I pulled a bottle of a belgian dubbel that I added just a
hint of star anise to and......yup, it had a certain sweetness reminiscent
of Pepsi.
That's what my brain seems to have filed away anyhow....lemon-lime and
anise. I could be completely off my rocker, though.
nathan in madison, wi
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:41:50 -0600
From: "Roger Flanders" <flanders at probe.net>
Subject: Re: Guinness et al
A few years ago, while my wife continued her tour of St. Patrick's
Church in Dublin, I slipped over to a pub just northwest of the church
to have pint. (For those not yet lucky enough to have become
acquainted with Dublin geography, St. Patrick's is east of the
Guinness Brewery and both are located just south of the River Liffey,
west-southwest of "downtown" Dublin.)
Upon drawing my pint, the barkeeper asked if I liked Guinness. I
answered, yes, I like it here in Ireland very much, but at home in
Nebraska I prefer Murphy's, because, while both come in cans, I said
I thought the canned Guinness tasted differently at home. He replied
<and, here, add a wonderful Irish accent>"Yes, I have friends who have
been to London, and they say the same thing. Guinness doesn't travel
well." Then, after a reflective pause, he added with great sincerity,
"In fact, I don't think you can get a good pint north of the river."
This adds nothing to the information originally requested, but I love
to tell the story and get so few opportunities...
- --Rog Flanders
Omaha, NE
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:46:55 -0800
From: Mike.Szwaya at co.clark.wa.us
Subject: The solution to pollution...
The old phrase in the haz. waste business 'the solution to pollution is
dilution.' comes to mind here.
As the risk of being labeled a tree-hugging, dam-busting, sandal-wearing
liberal, the concern about what goes into our sewer system, storm drain and
septic systems are very real and are all but here to stay (and more
importantly, they keep me employed). Regardless of the Clean Water Act,
NPDES and Big Brother (EPA), I don't think it's unreasonable for people to
give a little thought into what they do with the chemicals used in brewing.
And no, the EPA won't declare your garage a superfund site unless you get
caught red-handed and say "I didn't do it."
The guideline for storm drains is pretty simple - Don't put anything down a
storm drain you wouldn't put in an aquarium. Even little volumes of
chemicals add up. It's been proven that the negative effects of urban
non-point pollution (us) are higher than those from point sources
(industry).
Your lawn is probably the best disposal option for the limited amounts and
concentrations of chemicals we use during the brewing process. The lawn is
chock full of microbes that break down chemicals and act as a filter for
sediment. In fact, we even recommend that people wash their cars on the
lawn instead of letting all the road grime, brake dust and detergent go into
the storm system.
If you are using stuff that kills your lawn, think about switching chemicals
or reducing quantity/concentration. There are biodegradable options out
there that are a lot less harsh.
There's also those who have concerns about shallow drinking wells or septic
fields. I'd say if you were running a continuous stream of chlorinated
water within your well field, sure, you might see an impact in time. But
how much sanitizing solution do we realistically need? Couple gallons? 15?
Let it sit for a couple days to denature and then dump it as far from your
wellhead as possible. If you're *really* concerned, build a little
biofilter of organic material like spent grains & hops and yard waste
(leaves, etc.) that you can pour your solutions through.
Carpe arbor!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Szwaya, PE
Clark County Public Works
Stormwater & Watershed Resources/NPDES
515 W. Mill Plain Blvd.
Vancouver, WA 98666
Office: (360) 397-6118 x4536
Fax: (360) 397-6144
Email: Mike.Szwaya at co.clark.wa.us
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:23:37 -0500
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Responsible Brewing
B R states > > I hate to say this, but this is more of the usual
liberal scare tactics. >>
Please take this to some political chat group, not the HBD. Benjy had a
good point about "considering" the effect of your sanitizers on the
environment. A normal homebrewer with half a brain should rightly consider
the effect of dumping large quantities of sanitizers into the environment.
As many have pointed out, a weak bleach solution seems palatable as chlorine
is used to treat water. Other chemical sanitizers may not be so benign and
a strong bleach solution is overkill as a sanitizer and would likewise have
more effect on the environment. I think most of us homebrewers try to be
responsible. If we think about conserving water or our use of chemicals I
wouldn't think that would make us "liberals" necessarily.
Now, back to brewing. I find the discussion this discussion interesting and
feel there's no need for name calling--page down should work fine for BR.
Thanks to all those who post recipes on the HBD. I find that helpful as I
contemplate my next brew.
John Penn
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:49:42 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Laaglander DME
Laaglander light DME is noted for it's high content of nonfermentables.
Since it is a DME, can one add it to water and mash it by heating ot 150F
for about an hour to reduice this content?
If not, can a minimash be performed by adding say a pound of American Pale
Malt (High enzime content) for each 3 Lbs of Laaglander, and heating it to
150F to mash it. Will this help lower my final gravity when using Laaglander
light DME?
I used Laaglander Light DME in my last IPA, and ended up with a final
gravity around 1.019. Kind of high for an IPA. I like the flavor of
Laaglander, and would like to continue using it if I can manipulate it to my
satisfaction.
Steven
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:22:08 -0600
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: re: Pollution Concerns
Glen,
I have been brewing for ten years with the same septic system and well.
When I was using bleach, it went down the drain; no impact on the septic
system. I now use iodophor; no impact on the septic system. I dump all my
trub and yeast down the drain; that's good for the septic system. We clean
the toilets with all sorts of stuff and that gets flushed; no problems. The
bottom line is that the a septic system is pretty resilient so long as you
don't overload it with too much bad stuff or too great a volume of anything.
The leach field for a septic system puts the overflow near the top of the
ground where it is either evaporated or leaches down into the ground. My
monthly brewing hasn't upset it so far. Don't worry too much about septic
systems. But I have to admit I'm not an expert on them, just a satisfied
customer....
Dave Houseman
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:12:20 -0700
From: Matthew t Marino <mattncherie at juno.com>
Subject: Copper Cooling coils
I'll make this short , I didnt get any feedback on whether or not I can
use copper coils to cool draft beer, will this taint the beer or alter
the flavor? Can I leave beer overnight in the coils? Thanks for the
tips on cleaning the coils but I really want an answer to whether or not
to use them as a cooling coils. Any relevant info would be greatly
appreciated.
Mad Man
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:27:03 -0500
From: "Benjy Edwards" <rdbedwards at hotmail.com>
Subject: pollution clarification!
Due to the large number of responses that cited my original email as
saying that you should not dispose of your sanitizers by dumping them down
the drain, I would like it to be known that that is not what I said or
meant. I do disapprove of the chemicals being dumped outside or into the
storm sewers, but I think that it's only practical, as well as safe, to
dispose of them in the drain. That's how I dispose of all my sanitizing
agents.
I was just trying to point out that many environmental groups would
like us (everyone) to reduce the number and quantity of household chemicals
(such as bleach or cleansers) that we dispose of in the drain, as it does
burden our treatment plants. There is little alternative, however.
Regards,
Benjamin Edwards
rdbedwards at hotmail.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:25:29 -0800
From: "quoyle" <quoyle at chartertn.net>
Subject: Re: Laaglander DME
Steve,
I don't think that would work with Laaglander. Though I don't have the
science background to back this up, it's my guess that once the sugars are
extracted from the malt the die is cast and the fermentables you have there
are indeed there. I don't think the enzymes you get from mashing a pound of
malt at 150 would lower the DME you're using. Maybe somebody else has a
different opinion.
I like Laaglander, too. I saw something somewhere about it being only 50
percent fermentable, but I'm not sure I buy that.
Brad
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Parfitt <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
To: <sofh at listbot.com>; <homebrew at hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 10:49 AM
Subject: Laaglander DME
> State of Franklin Homebrewers - http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Laaglander light DME is noted for it's high content of nonfermentables.
> Since it is a DME, can one add it to water and mash it by heating ot 150F
> for about an hour to reduice this content?
>
> If not, can a minimash be performed by adding say a pound of American Pale
> Malt (High enzime content) for each 3 Lbs of Laaglander, and heating it to
> 150F to mash it. Will this help lower my final gravity when using
Laaglander
> light DME?
>
> I used Laaglander Light DME in my last IPA, and ended up with a final
> gravity around 1.019. Kind of high for an IPA. I like the flavor of
> Laaglander, and would like to continue using it if I can manipulate it to
my
> satisfaction.
>
> Steven
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to sofh-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:38:10 -0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Thermometer Calibration
Richard Foote wrote:
"I recently installed a bi-metallic dial thermometer in my mash/lauter tun.
I have used it to brew once thus far and have concerns as to its accuracy.
It has an adjustment screw in the back. My glass lab thermomoter reads
some degrees different than it. What's the proper method for calibrating?
In adjusting it, I also want to make sure my lab thermometer is accurate."
Richard,
I would not trust a glass thermometer any more than a bi-metallic unless the
glass instrument was truly "lab grade." The following is a standard
instrumentation calibration procedure. Use it to calibrate your bi-metallic
instrument & check the accuracy of your glass bulb instrument.
Prepare a mixture of ice & water as well as a small pot of boiling water.
Dip your thermometer in the ice-water bath, making sure to keep the lower
half of the probe within the ice, & give it a couple of minutes to
stabilize. It should read exactly 32F. If not, make a note of the reading.
Then move the thermometer to the pot of boiling water, again immersing at
least half the probe. After a minute or two, it should read exactly 212F.
If it is not, it should be off by the same amount & in the same direction as
the freezing point previously measured. Regardless, at this point, you
should adjust the screw on the bi-metallic thermometer to read 212F while
immersed in the boiling water. Then go back & repeat the entire procedure.
If you have a decent thermometer, it will read within a degree or so when
checked at both freezing & boiling temps. If there is more than 3-4 degrees
error between the boiling & freezing temps, find a better thermometer.
However, if the error is only a degree or two, calibrating it to read
accurately at boiling will enable give you to measure mash temps fairly
accurately.
Bret Mayden
Oklahoma City
brmayden at hotmail.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:02:22 -0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fermented Pepsi
By far the strangest post I've seen so far...what a riot!
"Is there alcohol?" What do you think?
"How much by volume do you think?" If you brew mead & beer, then you
presumably know about measuring specific gravity (after de-areating the CO2
from the Pepsi).
"I had previously been drinking out of the bottle for a few days before
adding the yeast, could that have allowed for some off flavors, or the
smell?" This is just too much....you HAD to be trashed when you wrote this!
Bret Mayden
Oklahoma City
brmayden at hotmail.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:41:30 -0600
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com>
Subject: Re: BJCP exam schedule
David Sapsis writes:
>Subject: BJCP exam schedule
>
>Good folks,
>Time for the periodic post alerting any potential examinees of the current
>BJCP exam schedule.
>
>The first half of 2001 has a number of exams spread out (including Central
>Canada!) ...
>
>...5/6 Calgary, Alberta Brian Read 403-245-9159...
>
It took me a second glance to realize "Central Canada" meant Calgary! I can
hear Calgarians choking on their suds when they read that! Central Canada
is our equivalent of the Eastern Establishment in the US.
Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:48:27 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Diacetyl - what is it?
Craig MacFarlane <craigm at chemconnect.com> asks
>Okay, with all the talk of diacetyl, I'll ask...
>
>What is it?
>
>How is it identified in the finished product?
>
> From the answers I'll decide if I want it in my beer or not.
Diacetyl is a compound (a ketone) that is has a butterscotch, buttery
or vanilla flavor. It can be produced by yeast or by bacterial
infections. In the normal fermentation process, diacetyl is produced
by the yeast, then it reduces levels toward the end of fermentation.
Often in lager fermentations, the temperature is raised at the end
for a "diacetyl rest." Some yeasts are good diacetyl producers but
poor reducers.
Diacetyl is generally considered a flaw in most lagers, but it is
typical of Bohemian Pilsners. it is also a part of the flavor
profile of some British and American ales.
Shepherd Neame's ales have high levels. Their Bishop's Finger and
Spitfire Ale are imported into the U.S. So does imported Pilsner
Urquel and ales from brewpubs using Pugsley equipment and their
Ringwood yeast. Grizzly Peak Brewpub in Ann Arbor is one such.
When fresh this can be attractive. It can accentuate the impression
of maltiness and smoothness in some beers. But as high diacetyl
beers tend to become "raunchy" (George Fix's term) with age,
especially in bottled beers with headspace air. For this reason,
mainstream U.S. lagers have largely reduced diacetyl to below the
threshold of perception over the last 50 years.
I find that even in fresh ales it becomes tiresome after the first pint.
I am sensitive to diacetyl (but "blind to another flavor component
often considered a flaw, DMS). Others don't detect it easily.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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