HOMEBREW Digest #3577 Sat 10 March 2001

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  New Louisville Brew club site. ("Murray, Eric")
  White Beer ("R&P Aceto")
  CC fermenters ("Jim Busch")
  One kettle HERMS ("Joel King")
  Hey John Yust ("Peed, John")
  One Thought (Each) on Mashtun Coolers and CCs (mohrstrom)
  diastatic enzymes in honey ("Richard B. Dulany Jr.")
  One more new brewer's question ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  Re: Trip to Germany - Dusseldorf (Brunnenbraeu)
  fermenter envy ("Larry Maxwell")
  Great Foments in Hystery (BShotola)
  Fruit Extract Brewing (Greg Stephens)
  Enough Already!! ("Gustave Rappold")
  re: Cognitive Dissonance ("Mark Tumarkin")
  beer on the Banks ("Morgan or Margi Jones")
  Nottingham (JGORMAN)
  Thanks (JGORMAN)
  Laaglander Mashing in IPA ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re: still on the FWH trail! (Jeff Renner)
  Wait, Don't throw away that Thermometer ("Pete Calinski")
  re:  O'fest ALE??? ("Kensler, Paul")
  steeping grains (Marc Sedam)
  CC fermenters and reality ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  My CC Decision ("Doug Hurst")
  RE: ring around the color, more CC and reality comments ("Murray, Eric")
  re: Cognitive Dissonance (Jim Adwell)
  Many Thanks from a new brewer ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  fermenter geometry ("Gordon Strong")
  Munchen Helles recipes ("Jay Wirsig")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:55:03 -0500 From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray at sud-chemieinc.com> Subject: New Louisville Brew club site. Greetings fellow brewers. LAGERS, the Louisville Area Grain and Extract Research Society has finally registered our own domain name, and I have been in the process of redesigning the old website The new one can be found at www.lagersclub.com . Our club has close to 80 members and we have a lot of fun at various events, brew-ins, and other activities. Any of you HBDr's out their in the Louisville area that are not currently members are encouraged to give us a call, stop by a meeting, or join in on the festivities. Others are welcome to check out the website and let me know what you think. There is still lots of content to be added, such as links to the AHA, the HBD or course, articles, etc... Upcoming Events, newsletters, pictures, and other information can be found on the site now as well. Maybe Mr. Alexander will even take a gander if I have not tweaked his mood to badly. Keep the carboy's full ! Eric Murray, Louisville, KY emurray at sud-chemieinc.com cozye at bellsouth.net Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:32:05 -0500 From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net> Subject: White Beer Just had a fairly good white beer the other day after work. I remember buying and drinking a beer called La Dux (or something similar) from either France or Belgium when I lived in Chicago (it came in a Champagne bottle). anyway this white beer brought me back and I was hoping someone out there could provide me with a nice recipe, preferably one that finished a bit on the sweeter side (it has to appeal to my wife). thanks in advance, Russ A. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:52:45 +0000 From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> Subject: CC fermenters Two features I look for in CC fermenters seem to be unavailable in such small (under 1 BBL) tanks. A manway that seals tight from the inside out so that one can spund the tank and develop pressure naturally and the CIP spray ball feature. Now once you say CIP, it means a decent pump that can push enough velocity through the spray ball so that is yet another cost item to calculate in. (I did manage to replace my old industrial pump with a sparkling new $750 unit that was sold off for $100 when one of our local micros went under....). As for ball valve versus triclover, the bottom should be triclover with butterfly while the side racking port can be ball valve since you only open the side port once to transfer the beer. Just be sure to spray Iodophor on any valve before and after using. A small brush can be useful for those with Zwickel ports as well (and a CC tank should have a Zwickel at least in the larger versions). As the units get bigger one has to consider external chilling from chilled water or glycol. I would think the option to pump a closed loop circuit through the tanks might be attractive over alternative methods. The benefit of a very small unit is it can fit in the frige. Some of my best beer was made in open fermenters with 1-1 height to width ratios. Also made a lot of fine beer with a unitank too. Cost effectiveness cannot be argued for a CC and the more engineering oriented you are the costs escalate rapidly. But, a spund tank that naturally carbonates and matures, allows inline filtration to the kegs and can be sampled daily from the Zwickel and then CIPed is certainly very nice to have. Prost! Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:06:51 -0000 From: "Joel King" <joel_d_king at hotmail.com> Subject: One kettle HERMS I'm an all-grain brewer looking to make the leap from a 5-gallon drink cooler with a Phil's Phalse Bottom (thanks, Dan, it's worked great for years) to a Heat Exchanger Recirculating Infusion Mash (HERMS)system. I've spent a fair amount of time web surfing looking at other people's systems. One that caught my eye was Vance Sabbe's two-tier non-recirculating system using a single kettle and two picnic coolers. http://www.concentric.net/~vsabbe/portabrew.htm It occurred to me that I ought to be able to take his design and make it into a HERMS by installing the heat exchanger coil in the kettle. The single kettle would perform all heating processes: 1. Heat mash water in kettle 2. Pump mash water to crushed malt in mash tun (upper cooler) 3. Heat sparge water in kettle (or enough water to cover heat exchanger) 4. Recirc mash liquid through heat exchanger in kettle 5. Pump sparge water to sparge vessel (lower cooler) 6. Pump sparge water to mash tun while gravity draining wort to kettle 7. Boil wort in kettle 8. Pump from kettle to fermenter via counterflow chiller The heat exchanger would remain installed in the kettle during the boil, but shouldn't intefere with the boil. It would be 15 to 20 feet of coiled 1/2" copper tubing. Drawbacks: 1. Can't recirc mash until sparge water is heated 2. Much pumping, reconfiguring fluid system (will use ball valves & quick disconnects, me thinks.) This concept appeals to me because... 1. Relatively inexpensive HERMS (just one kettle and burner) 2. HERMS not RIMS, therefore no heating element to clean or electronics subject to electro-magnetic pulse should WWIII erupt during a brewing session. 3. Lightweight system easily moved (entire brewery no larger than a big gas grill, toss in pickup truck, now it's an urban assault brewery...) Has anyone else done this? Or have any comments / suggestions? - -- Joel King -- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:03:25 -0500 From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com> Subject: Hey John Yust Hey John Yust, you lurkin' son of a gun, I know you're lurkin' around out there on your lunch hour ... shoot me an e-mail, please, I don't have your address. I want to discuss the ProMash program. For that matter, anyone wlse who wants to discuss it, shoot me an e-mail too. When rattling around with the tutorials and included recipes, I'm finding some pretty weird results. It looks like it can be a very helpful tool, but I feel that it has some serious holes in it. Maybe I'm expecting too much. Sorry, I don't have my hands around it well enough yet to be able to list my reservations specifically, but I will get to that point soon. Again, maybe I'm just expecting too much, or I don't understand everything I know about it. John Peed Knoxville, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:32:29 -0500 From: mohrstrom at humphreypc.com Subject: One Thought (Each) on Mashtun Coolers and CCs I _think_ I have a Rubbermaid 10Gal (I haven't bothered to read the label in some time.) Any road, it's orange. The single most obvious design differentiation that I could point to is that the handles are integral to the molded shell. This seemed to me to be more robust than the swiveling handles inserted into holes in the shell on the Igloo(?) coolers. This could be a factor after several trips lugging saturated grain to the compost heap. On CCs: folks, this is a _hobby_! We EXPECT to pay more than we can justify for our "stuff." I am as chea..., er, "thrifty" as the next guy, but I have to face that fact that I have spent far more on "stuff" than I would have on beer alone (OK, so maybe that's an exaggeration ...) Mark in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:39:18 -0700 From: "Richard B. Dulany Jr." <RDulany at co.el-paso.tx.us> Subject: diastatic enzymes in honey Greetings all, The following link has some interesting information about using honey in beermaking: http://www.honey.com/recipes/beer/index.html#Historical The article includes this information about honey's diastatic enzymes: "The possible incorporation of honey's diastatic enzymes (alpha-amylase and beta-amylase) to beer could pose further complications for brewing with honey . . . . Honey should be added in such a way so that its diastatic enzymes (alpha-amylase and beta-amylase) do not degrade the dextrins (non-fermentable carbohydrates) in beer into simple sugars, thereby destroying the texture and body of the end product. . . . Honey added to fermenting beer wort not only decreases the dextrin content of the beer proportionately by dilution, but it also increases the potential alcohol content of the finished beer by increasing the proportion of fermentable sugars in the wort." If this is true, couldn't extract brewers take advantage of honey's diastatic enzymes to utilize specialty grains that would otherwise have to be mashed? Essentially, you would be using honey to "mash" your specialty grains. I'm interested in giving this a try, but don't have much of a technical background. Has anyone ever tried this before? If not, can someone suggest a method for trying a "honey mash" ? Salud! Ricardo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:14:46 -0800 From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> Subject: One more new brewer's question How long should I let the primary fermentation go, until it stops bubbling completely or until it slows down significantly (like once every 30 seconds)? How long should I let secondary fermentation go since if I recall correctly, there isn't much fermentation to gauge the process by? Thanks again Nils Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:39:00 EST From: Brunnenbraeu at aol.com Subject: Re: Trip to Germany - Dusseldorf In einer eMail vom 06.03.01 06:33:12 (MEZ) Mitteleuropaeische Zeit schreibt Mauricio Wagner <info at alean.com.ar>: > I'm leaving in Argentina and next week I'll fly to Dusseldorf. > I would like to buy some wheat malt in Germany. > Does any one one know a homebrewer shop there, perhaps web site address? > Also good places to drink a weissbier ? Hi, Mauricio, just to get informed about the Duesseldorf beer scene, you can go to http://www.biercity.de/duesseldorf/duesseldorf.html This site gives a good overview, especially if you read under the keywords 'Brauereien', 'Biergeschichte' and 'Brauhaeuser'. But don't expect to find friends, if you order any other beer than 'altbier'. Try to stay anonymous, if you're asking for a weissbier ;-) As to your question concerning wheat malt, I can't help you, because I've always bought via mail order. Hope it helps anyway. Cheers / Zum Wohl / Na zdrowie, Volker Volker R. Quante Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:38:53 -0500 From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net> Subject: fermenter envy What I think is really going on here is that some guys like to play with scaled-down fermenters just like other guys like to play with scale model trains. Come on, admit that the difference in beer quality is probably negligible and the other "advantages" all boil down to it being fun and enjoyable. It's all about the thing being fun to play with and look at. It's a sports car. It's model trains. I'm not telling anyone how to spend their money. When some people wonder how I could have spent $1000 on my brewery, I ask them how much they spent on those titanium golf clubs. Hey, I'm one of the guilty. No Porsche for me, but give me a shiny stainless steel gadget with valves and stuff and ... well, I can feel my heart pounding already! To each his own hobby indulgences. My hat goes off to the first of you CC owners to admit you bought it because it's fun and no more or less a waste of money than those golf clubs. Larry Atlanta Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 03:13:38 EST From: BShotola at aol.com Subject: Great Foments in Hystery Hello fellow Clergy of Zymurgy, Regardless of internal pressure, I see why a happy go lucky brewer could really blow his yeast cake after reading some of this CC vs. Bambi thread. Geez Louise! I don't have a page down key, but its like trying to look away from an accident. I am transfixed by this study in -Sychosis. Out out, damned spot! In a related incident, a friend just reported a near catastrophe in his laundry room / brewery which occurred after he absentmindedly poured hot wort straight into a glass carboy. He immediately saw and heard a hairline crack form around the bottom, but being a thrill seeker (and, he admits, an idiot) he went ahead and topped off with cold water and pitched yeast. After leaving the bottle in place to ferment for a week, he wrapped a strip of the handyman's secret weapon, you guessed it, DuctTape, around the crack and then proceeded to lift the sumbitch up on to his dryer (Whirlpool model #54098754670 at an average height of 36.0042 inches dead level reckoning by laser) to siphon into the bottling bucket. Page Down now if you must! As the end of siphoning, he lifted the empty (save for yeast cake) carboy off the dryer and it promptly came apart in two neat pieces, one in each hand, with the most wicked cutting edge exposed on each. The tape was strictly an illusion. He wasn't even wearing gloves. He was unhurt and did not pass out, but did slop some slurry on his shoes, and has been seen again in church the last couple of Sundays. He might have had to change his briefs before continuing also, but I don't think so. Let me qualify by saying this is strictly conjectural as I wasn't *there* and haven't had *personal experience* with that kind of brief (Fruit of the Loom, the Yugo of underwear). In addition to being stainless, these briefs are considered to be as good as plastic. Their wide, shallow geometry allows a firmly settled cake, and sets up favorable convection currents. (Sansabelt et. al, "Boxers vs. Briefs" 1977) They are disposable to boot. Now, this gentleman is a highly intelligent Princeton graduate and successful software engineer, and you would think he would have known better. Certainly any one of us would have. I'm right aren't I? But you know how guys get around beer and stuff, kind of loopy and off center. Its a beautiful hobby that way. Anyway, I have a question to pose to the collective: I would like to brew a SamiClaus in the 2.090 range, so obviously I am going to need a strong vessel. When gluing two halves of a carboy back together, should I use Duco Cement, or Epoxy? Bob Shotola Yamhill Oregon Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:21:03 -0800 From: Greg Stephens <greg at nworks.net> Subject: Fruit Extract Brewing I've been doing extract brewing and partial-mash brewing with primary fermenting only. I'm planning on trying an Apricot Extract ale (I tried Magic Hat's apricot ale on a couple trips back east last year and would like to do something like that). Can anyone recommend how I might add a fruit extract to an extract Pale Ale recipe to get the best results. In reviewing past HBD's I found a recommendation to do a secondary fermentation of 1-2 weeks, adding the fruit extract at the beginning of the secondary. TIA, Greg Stephens Modesto, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 3:52:0 -0500 From: "Gustave Rappold" <grappold at earthlink.net> Subject: Enough Already!! Jim Adwell gives us all a little perspective, I especially love the line "She's so anal-retentive she can't sit down for fear of sucking up the furniture." - Jennifer Saunders ...that's a classic. I like to read a good discussion, but there's a point when that quote seems to kick in and bring us all back to reality. I'm sure I could get into it over my 15 gallon Limousin Oak cask that cost me about what a cylindro-conical goes for, but there comes a point where whats important to you isn't to the next guy. Whether it be cost, performance, or whatever, we all have our priorities, so nitpicking only gets me to exercise my page down button. Gus Check out my system at http://home.earthlink.net/~grappold - --- Gustave Rappold - --- grappold at earthlink.net - --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 05:31:46 -0500 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: Cognitive Dissonance Jim Adwell sent in the following: "Authorities are blaming the death of Gomer Timpson, 33, of 123 Goose Pecker Ridge Road, on severe chronic cognitive dissonance disease (SCCDD). Mr. Timpson was found in his garage/brewhouse with his head stuck in a plastic brewing bucket Saturday morning by his wife, Thelma." gee, it sure is a shame about Gomer...but , you could'a seen it coming. This newest model of the More Beer Stuff Than You Can Ever Imagine conical yeast progagator has etched nucleation sites that when examined by polarized light microscopy bear a suspicious resemblence to a tartan plaid - surely a disaster waiting to happen. Mark Tumarkin Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 06:34:34 -0500 From: "Morgan or Margi Jones" <2mjones at mis.net> Subject: beer on the Banks Eric Lande wanted to know where to drink on the Outer Banks,(truly an exceptional place!). There's a brewpub in Manteo, on Roanoke Island just before you get to the Banks, called the Weeping Radish. Their specialty is German Lagers, and they're quite authentic. Last time I was there they had a good alt and a fair pale ale in addition to the usual lagers. The wife doesn't care for them, 'cause she's a hophead, but to me they are a welcome stop. Food is pretty tasty too, if you like German food. They also have a pub in Corolla, at the north end of the Banks. They sell beer to go in growlers and bombers, and one can sometimes find their beer in local outlets. If you take a daytrip to Okracoke Island (highly recommended-it's a 30 minute free ferry ride from Hatteras Village -s. of Avon), check out Howard's pub. It's the first business on the right as you come into Okracoke from the ferry landing. In addition to awesome food, they have over 100 bottled beers, and a few drafts. The selections in package stores are pretty limited- Budmillors seems to be the rule; I usually stop in Chapel Hill on the way and stock up on microbrews, plus bring a keg or 2 of homebrew, depending on the length of my stay. Hope this helps, and enjoy your stay on the Outer Banks! Morgan Jones Bagdad, KY Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:45:00 -0500 From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com Subject: Nottingham I have used the Danstar products quite a bit over the last few years and I consistently have problems when I re-hydrate. I re-hydrate in warm water, at room temp, chilled, with yeast nutrient, in wort........ They all seem to be slow to start or don't at all. Now I just tear and dump. I know this sort of defeats the purpose of dry yeast but sometimes I make a starter with about a quart of wort the night before. I get activity in the primary in a few hours. Jason Gorman River Dog Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:55:00 -0500 From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com Subject: Thanks ""Sorry, the "mini-krausen" line is a load of crap."" Glen, you have such a way with words. Thank you for your enlightening nugget of wisdom! : > !! Jason Gorman River Dog Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:44:51 -0500 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: Laaglander Mashing in IPA Well the second experiment is under way. As I previously posted, I had an IPA that had a high Terminal Gravity which I surmised was due to using Laaglander Light DME. I did an experiment in which I was able to mash the dme by adding some malted barley. I have now made a second batch of IPA per my previous recipe, with the change of Mashing the Laaglander DME in with a pound of American two row pale malt in a gallon and a half of water before adding the remaining ingredients. Other changes to the recipe which should not effect terminal gravity were (1)change hops to reduce the bitterness (2) add the honey with the aroma hops instead of with bittering hops (3) add FWH hops at the mashout of the grain/Laaglander. Initial SpGr taken last night was 1.064, just slightly higher than the previous batch (due to the addition of the pale malt, which I tried to compensate for by reducing the honey by one cup). Yeast was the same type, Wyeast 1024 blister pack. Starter made the day before consisting of one pack of yeast at full blister pitched in one cup of water which was boiled with 1/2C Laaglander Light DME. I'll post in about 3 weeks what the terminal gravity is. I checked the original IPA last night, and it is still at 1.020, after two months. Steven - Ironhead Pico-Brewery (Working on upgrading to Nano-Brewery) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:52:36 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: still on the FWH trail! Last week (sorry) "Peter Gunczy" <pcgunczy at primus.com.au> wrote: >In my quest to succeed in FWH is the temperature of the sparged wort which >runs to the kettle important ? My hops are soaking in wort which is approx. >55deg C(130 F) for 45-60 mins. I don't know how that temperature would extract the goodies from the hops. The method that was studied and reported in Brauwelt involved steeping the hops at runoff temperature, which would be 60-70C. For homebrewers, the temperature would likely drop off during the hour or so of runoff (lautering), so I keep a little heat under the kettle to maintain this temperature. Big breweries, of course, will have large enough kettles that the temperature would drop very little. For Dave Draper's FWH summary, go to http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html. I really like the effect of FWH, especially for pilsners. Hope this helps. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:21:15 -0500 From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> Subject: Wait, Don't throw away that Thermometer John Adsit recently posted the results of his thermometer calibration: - --------------------------------------------------- The results? Freezing = 36F Body temp = 92F Boiling (at 5,440 feet elevation) = 192F - ------------------------------------------------------ Don't throw it away, I have a number of thermometers that have indicated as poorly as that or worse. I just readjust them. I assume it is the dial type. If so, everyone I have ever seen has a nut on the back that you can turn with respect to the scale and set it to be correct at one temperature. As I said before, I set mine to be correct in the range of mash/sparge temperatures, something like 150F to 170F. Then I check and note the error at around room temperature. These two temperature ranges are the only ones I care about. The first for mashing and the second for chilling. I don't care about freezing, body temperature, or boiling. The one problem with my method is of course, you need an accurate "standard thermometer" to measure the actual temperature in the mash range. Sorry I can't help you there. Good luck Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY 0^45'49.1" North, 5^7'9.5" East of Jeff Renner. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:46:22 -0500 From: "Kensler, Paul" <Paul.Kensler at Cyberstar.com> Subject: re: O'fest ALE??? Bob said: >Then I saw a German Octoberfest/Marzen. As I generally like lagered Octoberfest's this >was labeled as an ALE. <snip> Is this another way to brew one of my favorites? The answer has more to do with state alcohol labeling laws, than with brewing techniques. If I remember correctly, Spaten's and Paulaner's O'fests were both labeled as "ales" on the bottles for sale in Texas, although they are truly lagers. I used to live in Texas, so I guess I got used to it, but there are more wacky labeling laws and restrictions than I can remember (data was purged immediately upon crossing the border on my way out). I think the "ale" definition had to do with alcohol content - don't quote me on this, but I think the way Texas defines beer is Beer (low to medium alc.) Ale (medium) Bock (high) -There might be a "malt liquor" definition in there somewhere too. God bless Texas. The state had weird labeling laws, but at least they weren't in the distribution business ;-) (inside joke for those unfortunate beer lovers like me living in Montgomery County, MD). Paul Kensler Gaithersburg, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:59:01 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: steeping grains An alternate approach to steeping grains (or getting their sugary goodness out) that I used for years is ye olde coffee maker. The basket of your standard drip coffee pot holds 1/4 lb of grain. Steep the grain in 150F water for 15 mins, then scoop the grains into the filter basket (with filter). Run two pots of water through the coffee pot for each 1/4 lb of grain. You wind up extracting almost all of the sugars from the grains and gain the advantage of having lots of hot "wort". When I brewed primarily with extracts I'd do my "Specialty Grain Coffee" first and collect all that hot wort (each coffee pot is about 1/2 gallon). Dissolving the malt extract in the hot water (it comes out around 170F) was a snap, and the time to boiling was quick, even on an electric stove. Doing this for over a pound of specialty grains can be a PITA, but I still do it if I don't like the color of my wort by steeping about 2oz of chocolate malt and making a pot. An added use of the coffee pot is that running a batch of water through it gives you a pot of hot water that's almost always 170-175F...perfect for sparging! All of this was published in Brewing Techniques a few years ago (by me...no plagarism here), but it's always good to recirculate ideas. Enjoy! Cheers! Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC (where a TV sits in our office in wait of the ACC tournament) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:07:52 -0500 From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com> Subject: CC fermenters and reality Ron La Borde writes of the CC discussion: >Oh no, I was glad to get his [Steve A.] opinion on the CC fermenters. >Heck, I was just >about to kick dents in my old corny fermenter, when just in time our hero >Steve comes up with the logical facts. I too must thank Steve A. for challenging the CC issues. It has been less than 1 year since I have gone to all stainless brewing in 10 and 5 gallon cornies. This equipment has given me a much needed sense of security and yes, I must say... MANLINESS! So much so, that my wife has even noticed the difference. I boldly strut around the house with a corny slung over my shoulder. And flexing myself in front of the shiny stainless fermenters while staring at my blurry reflection gets her hot! But these discussions over CC fermenters have given me a huge feeling of inadequacy. I never new that so many people had them and that brewing was so much better. My manliness faded and SWMBO went back to her Fabio calendars, realizing that I am not the true brewing god she thought I was. I had... CC ENVY!!! Oh it was a problem, sure. I thought of selling my truck for the cash to buy a CC fermenter and a cooling jacket. But what would I use to transport my brewing supplies with? I even looked into cashing in some of my 401K funds. I didn't care about the penalties. The bank even turned me down saying that it didn't fit under their definition of "home improvement". I was at the end of my rope. Now thanks to Steve, I have a renewed confidence in my equipment. I feel manly again! Ready to brew another batch! I couldn't help but satirize here. I'm a gadget lover & techno-buff. I would love to have a CC, but cost is most definitely a factor. For now I will just have to be jealous of other's gadgets and be happy that my beer tastes damn fine regardless. Carpe cerevisiae! Glen A. Pannicke glen at pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net 75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD "I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:18:28 -0600 From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> Subject: My CC Decision Hmmm let me see: CC Fermenter = $400.00 or more 6.5 Gallon Glass Carboy = $20.00 or less Beer produced from either = good to the last drop. My mind is made up on which to buy. -Doug Hurst, Chicago, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:34:40 -0500 From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray at sud-chemieinc.com> Subject: RE: ring around the color, more CC and reality comments Tom & Jason state >>On several of my last batches of beer I get ring around the collar. .... >>I was wondering if it could be caused by priming with DME? " to which Glen Pannicke adds >I prime with all manner of fermentables, including DME. Never have I seen a >ring a round the bottle neck when using DME. I can say that you will see it >if you have and infection in your bottle, though. Use a bottle brush & >detergent to scrub out your bottles before sanitizing and storing/refilling >them. This kills the nasties and destroys the stuff they hide behind in the >bottle. >Sorry, the "mini-krausen" line is a load of crap. Sorry Tom & Jason, Glen is exactly correct,, and the last issue of Zymurgy will confirm that. Pick up a copy, the whole issue is on sanitation, infection, the causes, and the cures. One particular chart (sorry I don't have it in front of me), the ring around the collar symptom was listed as a definite infection along with the exact bacteria that causes it and if I remember correctly explains the flavor of this type of infection. This issue also has various articles on good sanitation techniques that are not overly complicated. Bill Riel replies to my post regarding Steve's comments on CC's >And, while I wouldn't say that I necessarily share his opinion on this >subject, I think it's valuable that he's expressing his skepticism. >These things are expensive! Especially in comparison to the miniscule >cost of the alternatives. For those of us who don't own these things >but would possibly consider buying one in the future, this is exactly >the type of discussion that's worth following. There is a lot of value in expressing skepticism, but it goes beyond that when you repeatedly try and develop an argument and try to prove others experience and fondness of the CC's wrong especially when you don't have the advantage of owning and trying it out for yourself. Especially when ever single person that has one has expressed their complete joy of using them, including George Fix (who's opinion I would very much respect). I am not saying that the scientific arguments are right or wrong on either side. My only point was if they enjoy brewing with them and like their beers, stop trying to tell them how wrong and foolish they were to buy them. I don't own a CC, I use plain old 7 gallon Carboy's and I make great beers with them. I would however always entertain the option of buying one if I could round up the cash. I am sure that the beer you made with it would be at least as good as it was before. Brian Lundeen writes; >The purpose of this forum is to help people become better brewers. Sometimes >that means discouraging people from practices that they "like" if the >accepted wisdom indicates that it is the wrong thing to do. Even if they >aren't convinced to change, at least it might prevent someone else from >repeating those mistakes. Steve is doing exactly what he should be doing as >one of the experienced and knowledgeable voices in this group. I agree on the purpose of this forum. Again, the problem is that Steve is not experienced in brewing with CC's personally (from my understanding). I don't think anyone with experience with them has expressed that it is the wrong thing to do, quite the contrary. I did not read one post that said someone bought a CC and it was a mistake. Did I miss that part? What I got out of Steve's numerous post was that if you bought one you were a fool to spend the money to get it. Again, that's up to the individual, a 2000 dollar top of the line CC might be more important to some people than driving a Porsche. I have received a few private emails, one of our fellow brewers expanded on and simplified my point very well (I will not post his identity since he did not post it publicly): >Well put, Eric. >I think Mr. Alexander is one of those guys who, although very >knowledgeable, seems to be insecure about it and as a result is always >trying to impress everyone (and more importantly, himself) with his >knowledge. Very tiresome. My page down button is wearing out. You must remember, no one asked for any help or debate on CC's it all started in HBD #3566 Mr. Alexander states: >Finally, Dan Steadman suggested that the conical fermentor is at fault (which was simply a joke from Dan Steadman) Mr. Alexander goes on: >A sub-15gal cylindroconical owner and his money are soon parted. Seems a terribly >expensive way to harvest yeast, and the principles of large CC fermenter that >improve fermentation performance don't apply on the smaller scale. Which again Mr. Alexander has no experience or factual basis to claim this as anything but a theory or opinion to which Steven Claussen simply supplies his experience, joy, and observations of using his CC. From that point on is where Mr. Alexander proceeds to Convince Mr. Claussen that his observations and joy are just illusions and he was a fool to buy it. Mr. Claussen, I would love to come by sometime and verify your joy and observations with your CC, one day I might be lucky enough to afford one. Eric Murray Louisville, KY emurray at sud-chemieinc.com cozye at bellsouth.net www.lagersclub.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:10:35 -0500 From: Jim Adwell <jimala2 at ptd.net> Subject: re: Cognitive Dissonance Mark Tumarkin wrote: >gee, it sure is a shame about Gomer...but , you could'a seen it coming. This >newest model of the More Beer Stuff Than You Can Ever Imagine conical yeast >progagator has etched nucleation sites that when examined by polarized light >microscopy bear a suspicious resemblence to a tartan plaid - surely a disaster >waiting to happen. > Gomer is sadly with us no more, but I'm more worried about his four brothers making beer in their kids' wading pools - YEECHH!!! Guess I'll stick to my rusty, err, trusty HDPE bucket. I would be using my 12 gallon Pyrex carboy, but it broke suddenly one day last month; it probably felt that it was old and worthless, technologically speaking, compared to a new bright shiny conical fermenter, and committed suicide. ( carbocide? ) I wonder if anyone has written a paper on the effect of tartan plaid on the health of brewing yeast? Just a thought.... Cheers, Jim stolen sig o' th' day: Alf's home planet was destroyed when everyone on the planet plugged their hair dryers in at the same time. Jim's Brewery Pages: http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:36:09 -0800 From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> Subject: Many Thanks from a new brewer I was overwhelmed with the number of answers I had waiting for me this morning answering my questions. Thanks to all you that responded. I think I may have figured out my high OG problem. I completely forgot about the need to aerate the beer, so when I added the cold water to top off to 5 gal, it didn't get completely mixed in with the wort. In order to fill the hydrometer tube faster, I was sticking the racking tube as far down into the carboy as possible, so it was probably capturing the undiluted wort at the bottom since the water was still mostly sitting on top. I'm pretty sure my concentrated boil was down to 3 gal when I finished, so should I just reduce my OG by 60% since that's the ratio between the 3 gal concentrated boil & the 5 gal final volume? If so, then my OG comes out to be 56 when the recipe's OG was 62. The recipe I used is at http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/05_107.html. Also, now that I look back at the recipe, I see the recommended fermentation times which answer my 2nd set of questions too. Thanks again, Nils Hedglin Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:00:21 -0500 From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at earthlink.net> Subject: fermenter geometry I guess the CC thread is still OK because no one has said "Hitler" or "Nazi" yet... At the Spirit of Belgium conference, a one talk mentioned briefly the relationship between fermenter geometry, fermentation temperature, and quality of finished product. I don't remember who made the particular comment; it could have been Garrett Oliver from Brooklyn, or Chris White of White Labs. Someone said that Belgian yeasts can be fermented at a much warmer than normal temperatures (76-85F) and still have a pleasant/desirable flavor/aroma profile if fermented rapidly in shallow fermenters. Now, I don't know if they are referring to ambient temperature or the actual wort temperature during fermentation. If they meant ambient temperature, perhaps the shallow fermenters imply a lower fermentation temperature due to more efficient cooling from the larger exposed surface area (when compared to a "normal" geometry fermenter whether carboy or CC). But all this seemed to be very anecdotal. However, the examples furnished at the conference were full of complex flavors with nothing "off" noted. Has this phenomenon been discussed in any brewing literature, or validated by anyone through experimentation? I'd be interested in understanding the variables and process better. Gordon Strong Beavercreek, Ohio strongg at earthlink dot net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:38:35 -0500 From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com> Subject: Munchen Helles recipes I was planning to make a Munchen Helles using the yeast cake from my Budvar (currently lagering in a carboy). I was planning to use 100% pils (pauls) for the grain bill but was open to options. I'm planning 18-23 IBU with a lot of late hop additions for aroma. Anybody have any suggestions? >>Jay Return to table of contents
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