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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
decocts, cleaned CCs & more (steve-alexander)
mail-order vs. local shop ("res0a8pl")
Refractometers, etc (DHSmith61)
newbie questions: dry hopping, pale ale ("ben A.")
Bloody Americans (craftbrewer)
Stainless Steel Tubing (randya)
Cold-Break and Racking ("Steven Parfitt")
RE: CIP'ing a Zwickel ("Houseman, David L")
Super V All-Copper CF Chiller (follow up) (William & Kazuko Macher)
GFCI & Fridge (Tom Clark)
inane ramblings (Jeff Renner)
Helles (Jeff Renner)
Finding Brewpubs ("Mark Tumarkin")
reusing yeast (Marc Sedam)
Re: Secondary Fermentation ("Doug Hurst")
Re: The Flaked Barley Influence (Jeff Renner)
yeast harvesting ("Czerpak, Pete")
holy Helles (Marc Sedam)
Re: Super V Chiller ("Michael G. Zentner")
Teat Wash and Chiller Flow (Tom Galley)
Problematic GFI Experience ("D. Schultz")
GFI's (AJ)
teatwash ("Joseph Marsh")
FW: Chiller Flow (Tom Galley)
GFI II (AJ)
RE: Mackeson's Triple Stout and Aeration post (Bob Sheck)
RE: Nottingham Yeast (Bob Sheck)
dubbels (RiedelD)
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:01:49 +0000
From: steve-alexander at att.net
Subject: decocts, cleaned CCs & more
Great post by Hubert Hangofer as usual. Important to
note that if you are having only 1 decoction you want
some sugars and amino acids in it, so decocting after
the low 60C rest is the ticket, as HH did. Also the
comment that it's tough as heck to leave starch in a
competent brew is dead-on. Infusions which strike even
at 85C leave only slighty too much starch. I'm a little
surprised that you can remix thin decoction into the hot
thick with wild abandon - I guess if I trusted my re-mix
temps a little more I'd go for it.
Very nice comments from Jim Busch on cleaning his CC
too. I guess my humorous comments about buying the CIP
for the CC wasn't so farfetched after all ! I don't
begrudge anyone their toys. I do think it's important
to recognize, as Jim and AJ and some others have that
these are "big toys" - adding some convenience and a lot
of cache' to HBing, and not major quality improving
steps in the resulting beer by itself. I feel that some
HBers expect to see huge advantages from fermenter
geometry, by decocting or by brewing in plaid ...
corresponding to the huge costs, the huge effort or the
huge fashion gaffe resp'y. That doesn't happen !
Beaver Pelt wonders ...
>>1. If you brew as often as every week or every other
>>in 10 gallon batches where does all that beer go? I
>>hope you're sharing.
For several years I brewed twice a month. (SWMBO is
diabetic and doesn't drink at all), and I found that was
difficult to dispose of, but I was willing to suffer for
my art and share a lot with friends, and officemates. I
do find it amazing many HBers expect to brew in 10+gal
batches and reuse harvested yeast regularly. Divided
between 2 people that's 45 fl.oz (US) of beer per day
each. I've found that's more than I care for on
average, which is not to say I don't drink more on a
weekend day or at a club get together sometimes. If you
plan on entertaining that's a different story, but it's
easy to let your eyes get bigger than your stomach (or
is it liver bigger than your fermenter ?) and ignore the
fact that you are constantly sitting on more finished
ferments than you can keg & fridge and drinking older
beers and suddenly learning about HSAs impact on aged
beers.
I learned a lot by brewing so frequently, but IMO
brewing in larger batches is a more practical use of
time - assuming it's a beer you like in quantity and
will use up in 6-8 weeks. A pils or a 'stock' or mild
ale is worth the larger batch size. The Hi-grav beers
are more difficult (for me) to consume quickly - so I
brew these in smaller quantities. Same w/ specialty
beers - I don't regularly for care for 3 mugs of spiced
20P seasonal ale in an evening so I make correspondingly
smaller quantities.
>3. There's a lot of discussion about harvesting yeast.
>Is it really worth the effort when a smack pack or dry
>yeast costs so little? I'm not knocking it, I've just
>wondered and never asked. My thoughts at this point
>are that unless you brew often it's better to buy than
>harvest.
Good question ...
Smack-packs & dry are relatively cheap, but the time,
effort and extract to build up a good starter before
pitching is a real expense. In a 5gal batch you should
really plan to build a starter from roughly 1/2 lb of
extract for ales and about 1lb of extract for lager
yeast. You need to step up several times with fresh
sterile wort which requires that mix/boil/cool be
repeated several times - else canned wort if you can.
Most important IMO you should pitch yeast which are in
top shape at pitching time.
I understand that you can pitch tubes or enough dry
yeast to get a good fermentation, but if you've even
once used pitching of freshly harvested yeast slurry
you'll appreciate the difference. The fermentation goes
smooth, fast and hits the wall hard ... no lingering
finishes. It compares favorable to even the recommended
starter sizes although they are good too.
If you have a yeast cake from a fermentation which
recently finished and the wort wasn't more than about
15P you will certainly have enough yeast even if you
wash to pitch a high levels immediately. You can also
keep the yeast for a matter of weeks in chilled
condition under beer or distilled water for storage -
but I'd highly recommend you wash and re-start the yeast
before pitching in that case. If you have space in a
fridge for a 1/2gal container you could extend this to 2
months(6brew/yr). Re-starting the cake on some wort well
in advance of the brew would be requiredafter such a
long time.
If your yeast act like mine you will find that some
store and revive well - that is maintain relatively high
viability levels for a couple months ! Others not so,
and for these - after 2 months you may as well buy a
smack-pack because you will need to build a larger
culture anyway. Weizen yeast and some 'Belgian' style
yeast seem to autolyze very quickly. I've recultured
WY2308 from slants that were just under 4 yrs old - no
problem at all - but it seems to lose viability in the
yeast cake within a few weeks. Some of the common
english ale yeasts (wy1028 and wy1968) seem to hold on
pretty well en masse. It does depend on the yeasts
condition too.
I promised myself I'd do some tests of viability changes
by adding glucose to yeast under unaerated beer. The
idea is to feed carbohydrates but not encourage growth.
Haven't had time yet. I suspect there are measures such
as this that might vastly improve stored yeast
viability. Adding trehalose reportedly will - but
that's an expensive proposition.
>4. Someone should sell a rennerian coordinates
>calculator. Everyone should know how close they are to
>the center of the brewing universe.
Didn't Jeff ever use his new GPS to publish the official
Rennerian origin of the universe ?
>5. How do I Cip my Zwickel?
It's a matter of personal preference. I received a jpeg
from one well known HBDer of a nasty zwickel that hadn't
been CIPed . This zwickel was reportedly responsible
for infecting 14bbls. So it seems that *FAILING* to CIP
your zwickel will grow hair on you hahn(sic).
>6. Has anyone thought of starting a list of brew pubs
>to visit when traveling? There's always questions
>about it?
I've been using www.pubcrawler.com for ages, but it
needs more frequent updating. You'd better call ahead
to see if the places on that list are still in
business. If you use it (or the one Pat may start)
please feel obligated to update and add reviews as well.
-S
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:07:36 -0800
From: "res0a8pl" <res0a8pl at verizon.net>
Subject: mail-order vs. local shop
Does anyone have any general comments as to the best source for supplies?
In other words,
Rating sources as to:
Value
Freshness of ingredients
Service
Do the BIG mail-order like BB&moreB & SP give you the same as the smaller
local shop?
Where do you shop. No need to promote a shop, just general comments please.
Bill
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:56:54 EST
From: DHSmith61 at aol.com
Subject: Refractometers, etc
>>Now that the secret brewing slush fund has been topped off, I am
shopping for a refractometer. Does anyone have any recommendations?
I've seen them priced from $100 to $199 by brewing related vendors.
What's the best value out there?
Don Lake
Orlando, FL<<
I looked up E-Bay and found a few hand-held refractometers going for about 40
bucks. I can't vouch for the quality since I'm a bit out of touch with lab
equipment these days. There's a lot of brewing goodies to be had on e-bay or
stuff that you can convert to home brew use. For example, I recently saw a
bunch (at least 30) of pin and ball lock keg connectors going for like ten
bucks from a guy who has no idea what they're really worth. Another auction
had 6 dual gauge caged CO2 regulators with a top bid of 30 bucks each.
That'll give you an idea of what's to be found there. Best places to look are
under Restaurant supplies or Laboratory supplies. Happy Bidding if you go!
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:05:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "ben A." <monkeyvsdinosaur at yahoo.com>
Subject: newbie questions: dry hopping, pale ale
hi all,
im new to homebrewing and am trying to get all the glitches out of my
process.
in dry hopping, how is the best way to get the hops out of the brew?
should i pour through a strainer on the way into the bottling bucket?
is there a better way?
also, recently i had a burning river pale ale by great lakes brewing,
cleveland, ohio. i thought it was great. does anyone know what
kind/how much hops is used in that beer? im not looking for a clone,
but something similar would be nice.
finally, is anyone else out there interested in getting off of the
traditional track and making some wild-assed brews? it seems most
people here are into making old fashioned traditional stuff at home.
does anyone have a recipe to shock the palate?
thanks for your cooperation and concern,
ben A.
=====
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:04:30 +1100
From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Bloody Americans
G'day All
/
I just cant rid of you lot can I. Piss off all these 'survivors' out of
my backyard and I think "yes back to utopia" and its only
drawback, SWMBO in a nightie and getting that warming
feeling again.
Even feel like making a vienna, so fire up the'fungus inspired
ayinger yeast David sent me. cant help feeling sorry for Marc
thou
/
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Ayinger yeast
?
I've unsuccessfully tried to get the Ayinger yeast strain
commercially. Is there anyone out there willing to swap a vial
of this stuff for something?<<<<
/
/
One thing about this country, we dont even have to ask. You
mention things in casual conversation and they appear.
Ayinger yeast from David, Hops plants from Brad, even expecting
a present from Burradoo. Yes we are a mad lot, worse than a
cut snake on a hot plate, but "mates"all the same.
/
Now I know a certain someone said
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: checking in
/
7. Will Graham ever bless us with his presence again?<<<<<<
/
/
And of course the answer is NO, not while where the sun dont
shines still points to the ground. But what has got this dingo
mader than than a funnelweb up your tunnel is the fact they are
now selling survival holiday packages to you bastards. They will
throw in a free squeeler for you to gut as well.
/
But why!!!!!!!, yes i know you wish to get close to the guru of
brewing, but you better do better than the guy with the knife.
The mess he made of that pig i wouldn't let him any of you cut
my lawn.
/
Now i have to get back to the Aussie web page, my newspaper
article, got my radio program again to organise, ......... Must call
Rupert M too as well
/
Shout
Graham Sanders
/
/
Oh if you want true sport, any of you fancy doing the rounds
with SWMBO. Thats the test of any man.
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 7:11:43 -0500
From: randya at qx.net
Subject: Stainless Steel Tubing
I was wanting to make a jockey box for my kegging setup. Does anyone know a
good place to get stainless steel tubing. I could go the route of copper, but I
would like to use stainless if I can find it for a reasonable price.
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:16:45 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cold-Break and Racking
Having only recently seen and then experienced a cold-break, I am a little
confuxed as to what to do with it.
While visiting Steve & Richard to make CCF chillers I observed a dramatic
cold-break on the Pils they were making.
Following this, and upon using a CCF chiller for the first time, I had a not
quite so dramatic cold-break in my IPA I am experimenting with.
Q - Should I just pitch the yeast and rely on it dorping on top of the CB.
Then Rack off to secondary after my usual about-a-week (fermentation slows
to a crawl).
Or should I wait for the C-B to settle, then rack off it and then pitch the
yeast.
I pitched ont op the C-B as it was taking several hours to settle and I
needed my sleep.
Q2 - If Ijust pitch on top of the C-B, and I want to reuse the yeast-cake,
should I rack after a day or two of primary fermentation so that the yeast
cake will be mostly yeast and not include the C-B material?
Steven, Ironhead Nano-Brewery, to be.
-75 XLCH- Johnson City, TN
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=241124&a=1791925
5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian
"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von
Bismarck
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:07:28 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: CIP'ing a Zwickel
Will too much CIP'ing one's Zwickel make them go blind?
Just do it until you need glasses....
....Dave (Four Eyes) Houseman
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:24:09 -0500
From: William & Kazuko Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Super V All-Copper CF Chiller (follow up)
Hi All,
Ken Johnson mailto:fearless1 at abac.com brings up a couple points
which I can respond to, I hope!
>I've built a few chillers so I am just trying to help. I
>have long wondered why the idea of all copper chillers is so appealing. In
>my mind, when the chill water flows inside copper on both sides, it must
>accept heat from both sides.
Well, yes, but that is true no matter what the outside material of the
chiller is made out of. Copper just conducts heat a little better than some
other materials. But more importantly, heat flow is a function of
temperature difference, so most of the heat that ends up in the cooling
water will come from the hot-wort side, not the ambient-air side.
To carry this thought a bit further, heat can only move from the ambient
air side during the time that the cooling water is at a temperature lower
than the ambient air side. This is only at the cooling water inlet end of
the copper jacket, and only for a few feet probably [I did not measure
this, but know that the outside of the hose on my previous chiller was
mostly hot]. So in the actual operation of the chiller, on the average,
heat is transferred into the ambient air of the brewery, not the other way
around.
Insulation of the outside jacket of the heat exchanger will serve no
positive purpose, other than preventing a burn at the hot exit end, where
the cooling water [now quite hot] comes out.
> I am not a big fan of using regular garden hose
>either. Garden hose has very little insulating properties. The thicker
>vinyl hose is expensive, but it also offers excellent insulation. I know if
>you tried it you would see the benefits of it. If you have enough room to
>store this baby, I am very jealous indeed!
Heat flows from higher temperatures to lower temperatures. Insulation on
the outside cannot help the CF chiller to cool better. Pull back the
insulation on your chiller if it is insulated on the outside, and see how
hot it is in there. If it is hotter than ambient [it will be, at least at
one end, unless you have a REALLY high cooling water flow rate] , then you
are holding heat in and would be better off removing the insulation.
>Also, this chiller only has 1/16 clearance between the two tubes. Volume is
>very important to these chillers. More volume of chill water will absorb
>more heat.
This is the way I see it too, up to the point where the volume of cooling
water reduces the wort to target temperature. After that, more water flow
means too cold of a wort temperature. I get a lot of cooling-water flow
through that 1/16 space. I measured it but forget the exact flow rate. I
think it was something like 3 gpm. And that is with my excessive 38 foot
length.
>You can't solve this dilemma by simply forcing more chill water
>through faster. Higher velocity will reduce the ability of the chill water
>to absorb heat.
No, that is not the case. Higher flow rate in my chller does take more heat
away. Higher velocity does not reduce performance.
The way the water flows impacts the ability of heat to be transferred, not
the flow rate. Laminar VS turbulent flow. Turbulent flow is better from
what I have read and understand. Causes the water to mix and reach an even
temperature, which is better than having hot and cold streams in there.
>A lot of water, moving slowly past the inner (hot wort
>filled) tube, will perform the best. It will also use the least amount of
>chill water!
I do not think this is actually the case. I will defer to the mechanical or
fluid engineers out there for the proof. But I know that if water flows too
slowly, then you will end up with hot water building up against the surface
of the interface between the hot- and cold-side liquids, and heat transfer
will suffer. This is why people who use immersion chillers must move them
around in the kettle to get faster cooling.
>You mentioned that this chiller would be easy to disassemble and clean.
>Maybe that information is in part 2. But I am wondering how this is
>possible if you assemble it with solder.
Frankly, I don't see the need for taking the chiller apart, especially in
my case where I can pressure sanitize the interior with steam. But the way
this is done is by using copper unions. A union is a plumbing connection
that is off-the-shelf and actually quite cheap, at about $2.50 each here
were I live. They are fittings which have two halves, which are each
soldered to the end of a piece of copper tubing. Then the halves are
screwed together by hand and tightened using a couple of adjustable wrenches.
I use these a lot in my brewery, and after repeated disassembles have not
had a problem with leaks of any type. By the way, unions also make neat
mechanical couplings. I have a motorized part of my brewery that uses
1/2-inch copper tubing as a drive shaft, and I use these unions as
mechanical couplings so I can remove the dive shaft in a second when I want
to. It is a slow speed application, by the way. Just so happens that the
5/8-OD of copper tubing fits perfectly inside a standard drive coupling.
>I am always surprised that so many
>people get so hung up on being able to disassemble and actually SEE that
>the inside of their counterflow chiller is clean. I understand this
>thought. But, with all the fantastic cleaning agents out there, it's almost
>a moot point.
No doubt about that at my end either. I don't feel the need to disassemble.
CIP works for me...
> I love these technical equipment discussions!
Me too! Sometimes I wish I could get into recipe formulation as heavy as I
do brewery evolution!
>Again, congrats
>Bill Macher. We all toast your accomplishment! Hope I helped you. I am
>always willing to share what I have learned with my homebrewing brethren.
>All you have to do is write me.
Thanks for your input and compliments Ken. I do not see the heat transfer
thing from the same perspective as you do. Take a minute to think about
heat flow, that it goes from hot to cold, and see if what I have said makes
sense.
Hope this stuff remains of interest!
Bill
Bill Macher Pittsburgh, PA USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:40:14 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: GFCI & Fridge
For those of you interested in using converted freezers or refrigerators
in your brewing endeavors...
This is from The National Electric Code Handbook..
________________________________________________________
Article 210-8. Ground Fault Protection for Personnel.
(a) Dwelling units.
(2) All 125 volt, single phase, 15 or 20 ampere receptacles, installed
in garages shall have ground-fault circuit-interupter protection for
personnel.
Exception No. 1 to (a) (2): Receptacles which are not readilly
accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (a) (2): Receptacles for appliances occupying
dedicated space which are cord-and-plug connected in accordance with
Section 400-7 (a) (6), (a) (7), or (a) (8).
Receptacles installed under Exceptions to Section 210-8 (a) (2) shall
not be considered as meeting the requirements of Section 210-52(f).
__________________________________________________________
The National Electric Code Handbook also contains an advisory notation;
"The purpose of GFCI's in garages is to provide a degree of safety for
persons using portable hand-held tools. GFCI's are not needed for
appliances such as freezers or refrigerators, and these appliances
should not be subject to tripping caused by other appliances."
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, the other section referred to Section 210-52(f) requires
that such a room must have receptacles within 6 feet of any point along
every wall over two feet wide, without crossing any doorways.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For added safety, you can make sure that the frame of the device
(Fridge) is positively grounded to a good earth ground.
Tom Clark
Retired
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:32:29 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: inane ramblings
"Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au> wrote:
>Jeff, great to see you reading the weather in Washington State.
>Is that a hairpiece?
I sure wish my cover hadn't been blown. Now my wife wants to know
about that other wife I have in Seattle! I thought wearing the toop
and mustache would work.
It'll be a relief to stop, though. I was using Hermione's trick of
getting extra hours in a day and it's been exhausting. (very obscure
reference)
>I guess it is time to cease subjecting you to another one
>of our periodical "inane ramblings".
Good lord, I hope not! It's the inanities that keep this interesting.
Thanks to John Zeller for sharing his CAP success story. Hope it
inspires other brewers to brew this great style. You'll feel a part
of history and have a fantastic beer.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:06:27 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Helles
>Mark Garthwaite <mgarth at primate.wisc.edu>
>I appreciate the discussion of Helles recipes
>since I just brewed one. Has anyone seen the Classic Beer Style Series
>book on Helles that I believe has just been published? Any reviewers out
>there who could comment on the book?
Check the 2000 archives for Renner and Helles. I pointed out some
glaring errors in water chemistry last summer. The author, editor
and I exchanged email, but then the author had to go to Europe and I
haven't followed up. My bad. The author admitted that this was an
area he didn't know anything about, but his advisors and the editor's
advisors let him down.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:08:28 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Finding Brewpubs
Several people have written in suggesting the Pubcrawler database
http://pubcrawler.com
It is very good, another one to check out is Beer Travelers Brewpub Finder
http://beertravelers.com/
Another option is the Brewery Locator on the AHA Beertown site
http://www.beertown.org/IBS/Breweries/breweries.htm
Or check to see to see if the state you're visiting has a Brewers Guild, if so
this can be an excellent source of info. For example, check out the Florida
Brewery Guild http://www.floridabrewersguild.org/fbg8.htm
or the Michigan Brewers Guild
http://michiganbeerguide.com/beerguide.asp
As far as hosting a Micro/Brewpub database on the HBD; it's a good idea if
someone steps forward to do the work (and we certainly have a lot of people
that don't seem to think of beer related time as work). But this data base
would have the same problem as those above. Brewpubs and Micros unfortunately
seem to go out of business too frequently. If only the general public would
support them the way that we do!
That brings us back to the HBD, which over and over again proves itself to be
the best source of brewing and beer related info. A big plus for asking the
HBD for suggestions is that you most likely get current recommendations from
homebrewers who have a better understanding of what you're looking for (cause
it's what they look for themselves!). Not to mention that you might get an
invitation to meet one of those homebrewers for a beer at there local pub on
your way through town. Making those types of connections is a great way of
extending the sense of community that's such a great part of the HBD.
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:19:25 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: reusing yeast
I've read on a semi-regular basis on the HBD that yeast slurries
"don't keep well" or "shouldn't be kept for more than a month" or
other such observations. To which I say POPPYCOCK (I don't think
bull$&!t would pass the filter)!
I regularly store yeast sludge in a sanitized ball jar for
months. Do I wash the yeast? Not usually. It's kept in the
fridge between 32-40F until I need to use it. I've kept lager
and ale yeasts this way for over four months. The day before
brew day I pitch a pint of starter wort. Almost without
exception the yeast is kicking butt within four hours. The
starter fermentation is usually done before I even brew the next
day.
So even the infrequent brewers (those who are well below the 100
gal/year limit) out there should keep your yeast sludge for the
next batch. As long as it's kept cold and your sanitization
techniques are solid, you'll get better ferments and save a
little dough to boot.
Just shaking it up...
Oh, and thanks to everyone who's been helpful about locating
Ayinger yeast. I have a couple of solid leads on the li'l
buggers.
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:19:45 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Secondary Fermentation
Paul writes:
>>>In this vein, can anyone come up with other proven/observed
advantages to racking to a secondary i.e. other than avoiding rubber
beer/other flavour impact from the yeast and trub lurking at the
bottom?<<<<
I'm not sure about this, but doesn't racking to a secondary help to
rouse some of the more floculent yeast strains? Wouldn't this help lead
to better final attenuation?
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:42:05 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Flaked Barley Influence
"Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> astounds the doubters with
an all beer post about the head retention on the Yates/Pivo Pilsner:
>I am attributing this brilliant head retention to the flaked barley
>unless someone else can suggest otherwise.
I think this is absolutely right. German brewers are prohibited from
including unmalted barley by the Reinheitsgebot, so their trick is to
use "chit malt," which is simply barley that has been steeped until
the chit, or fist sprout, is just visible. The grain is then kilned,
and it meets the definition of malt (wink, wink). But of course,
everyone knows it's really almost unmodified raw barley, full of those
whatevertheyares (proteins, gums?) that give good head retention.
I suspect the undermodified Czech malt has high levels of this same magic.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:38:03 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: yeast harvesting
marty asked about yeast harvesting.
here is what I do:
I harvest from the primary. I do not acid wash. I water wash but only to
remove the beer because I have never been able to get a good trub separation
with my technique. I have never harvested secondary yeast because I have
never tried. I have no commenst on whether secondary yeast are better. I do
make sure to suck up some yeast when transferring from primary to secondary
so all my yeast in secondary are not only ones that didn't drop out in
primary though. there are arguments about which is better but I havent had
any problems with my method and made plenty of tasty brews. I do filter out
my hop partiacles out and some cold break before primary fermentation of my
wort though so I might have less trub in my yeast than if I didnt do this
filtering.
I tend to start with 1/2 slurry, 1/2 water in a jar. Let this sit in the
fridge (tightly covered) overnight then decant liquor. Add water (yes,
right from tap - but you can boil it if you want) and then put back into
fridge. maybe decant again the next day after settling yeast solids, and
then store for anywhere between 1 and 4 to 6 weeks after topping up with
clean water again.
before re-use I dump most of the liquor and pitch only the solids. I
probably pitch about 1/4 to 1/2 pint yeast solids for a 5 gallon batch. i
try to be a bit more generous if doing a high alcohol brew like imperial
stout or scotch or strong belgian.....
With storage less than 2 weeks, I do not restart the yeast although I do
smell to see if its gone bad before I pitch it to begin fermentation. With
storage of greater than 4 weeks I would recommend using a starter to
reawaken the yeast the night before brewing. if you do not restart these,
you may have a long lag. I've had a 6 week old repitch of 1056 take about
24 hours to restart while 2 weeks old ones take about 6-8 hrs to be going
good. By the way, I only aerate by shaking although better aeration is
recommended and maybe I'll upgrade to this by the summer time.
I do not feed my stored yeast when they are in the fridge. I store them in
sealed 1 to 2 pint jars from my employers R&D lab.
I have repitched wyeast 1028 and 1056 up to 4-5 times each. I have
repitched 1968 three times before I have repitched 1098 twice or three
times but wasn't too happy with high ester production on this yeast that was
apparent in the later pitchings. I have also repitched Nottingham dry 2-3
times with no problems.
hope this helps with some practical info.
There are better recommended methods like long terms storage of only 10%
yeast in water but I haven't had any problems with short term storage at
higher concentrations of solids.
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:58:43 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: holy Helles
My search for the Ayinger yeast started in earnest after drinking
litre after litre in Munich this summer. I couldn't believe how
damn tasty this beer could be...any beer. The dunkles was
possibly even more magical. People have certainly sung the
praises of Augustiner Helles but I can't possibly imagine a
better beer than Ayinger Helles. The true disappointment of my
trip to Munich was that I didn't go to the brewery.
I have the Helles book by Horst Dornbusch. It's a bit thin, but
a very interesting read. The recipes are good and solid and
served as the foundation for my first few attempts. It's among
the better written ones in the series but I wish that it were
longer.
Marc "Go Heels!" Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:04:45 -0500
From: "Michael G. Zentner" <zentner at laf.cioe.com>
Subject: Re: Super V Chiller
I've built two heat exchangers and swore I'd never do a
calculation to do it. Chad Mundt provides a description of
calculations that govern heat exchange. Ronald LaBorde
talks about efficiency. The bottom line, I think, is that
if you have sufficient mixing of the cooling liquid to bring
its temperature near the entering hot feed AND bring the
exiting wort to the proper cooling temperature, that's the
best flow rate to use. Pushing the cooling liquid through
faster in this case will be a waste of energy (maybe that's
where the comment about the more powerful fan came in). The
design of your exchanger will govern the required flow
rates.
In common terms, think about a glass of water with an ice
cube in it as a heat exchanger. If you just let it sit
there, the ice cube will melt. If you stir the glass, the
ice cube will melt faster. There comes a time where you
practically could not melt it any faster by faster stirring
(neglecting extreme friction or infinitesmally non-perfect
mixing for anyone nitpicking). The same's true with wort
chillers. In the former case, you build a really long heat
exchanger and use slow flow (where little bits of fluid
pretty much follow the same path through the pipe and don't
whirl around each other), letting residence time take care
of the cooling. In the latter case, you build something
that causes greater agitation among the fluid(s), causing
more of the small bits of cold cooling fluid to contact the
hot pipes faster by not following a straight path (if you
think of discretizing fluid into bits and tracking where the
bits flow). Since it's not practical in commercial
applications to have horrendously long heat exchangers, they
are often comprised of lots of tubes surrounded by a single
shell. The shell is filled with baffles or other devices to
cause the cooling liquid to pass over the tubes many times,
thus better "mixing", the device doesn't need to be 10 feet
long, and you get faster cooling. There's nothing wrong
with using 1/16 inch clearance if you're getting the cooling
you want, but if that clearance is around a 1/2" tube, I
think what you have is imbalanced, whereas if that clearance
was around a 1/4" tube, you have better balance between cold
and hot volumes in contact. I do not remember the design of
the Super V so this is not a direct criticism.
To the comment about laminar flow, I would guess with pretty
good certainty the the cooling liquid in my chiller is
laminar "by visual inspection of the outlet".
I'll probably take a hazing for the theoretical (which I did
do earlier in life) handwaving, or that ice cubes are not
fluids, but so be it. In any case, this discussion has
inspired me to consider designing and building a shell and
tube that the common person can do without fancy tools. AND
I think if the Super V works, the designer ought to hook it
up this weekend, kick back, have a homebrew, and not worry
too much about maximal efficiency (and be happy that his SO
hasn't killed him for having a 10' heat exchanger around the
place :-)).
Mike Zentner
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:07:34 -0600
From: Tom Galley <Tom.Galley at Halliburton.com>
Subject: Teat Wash and Chiller Flow
Joe: said:
"I don't use it myself so this won't be directly applicable but here is what
I do use. Teatwash. I got a gallon of it from a farm supply store that was
going out of business. It is almost the same thing as iodophor but cost
$6.00 per gallon. I can keep it for a couple weeks as long as it's covered
airtight."
Question for Joe: Are you sure that the product you are using has no other
ingredients? I looked into this several years ago and everything I looked
at had other stuff in it (Lanolin, detergents, even aloe vera). If straight
iodophor, I'm back at the feed store!
With respect to the optimal flow rate for a counterflow chiller: I'm not an
engineer, but I think you need sufficient flow to set up turbulent flow
conditions through the chiller to maximize efficiency. In laminar flow at
lower rates there is a less efficient heat transfer at the fluid/Cu
interface. Does it really matter? Not if the wort is cooled off at the
exit. But it is a possible consideration in the design. The difference is
really notable with an immersion chiller. I sometimes boil and rapidly cool
tap water for brewing to precipitate Calcium carbonate out of the water.
Gentle stirring of the water with an immersion chiller in it works much more
slowly that vigorous movement of the coils up and down. Of course HSA is a
consideration when cooling wort.
Someone else would have to calculate the flow rate needed for a specific
design.....
Tom
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:36:37 -0800
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz at qwest.net>
Subject: Problematic GFI Experience
I too had a GFI that on occasion would not give me juice for any item I
might plug into it. It was a spotty problem that was resolved by replacing
the waterproof cover on an exterior outlet. It seems that after a rain some
water would get in the outlet and cause the GFI to kick once any type of
appliance was plugged in, even if I was plugging it in at the GFI in the
well covered and dry garage.
Burp,
-Dan
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:36:45 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: GFI's
A common misconception about GFIs has been posted twice (I think I even
posted this erroneously once myself in the past) over the last couple of
days. In fact what a GFI does is look at the sum of the current in the
phases (just one,the black while in a single phase circuit) the neutral
(white in single phase and ground (green) wires. The only paths through
which current should flow is these three wires. If any current is
flowing through any other path, the sum of the currents in the 3 wires
will be other than 0 and the breaker will trip.
A.J.
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:10:41 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: teatwash
Thanks to you guys who warned me about lanolin in teatwash. I checked and
mine does indeed contain 'an emollient solution'. I haven't had problems
with head retention myself but then I'm probably way overcausious about
iodine. I rinse with either a cheap beer or cheap vodka.
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:29:16 -0600
From: Tom Galley <Tom.Galley at Halliburton.com>
Subject: FW: Chiller Flow
> Yeah. What Chad Mundt said. That's what I meant. Yeah sure that was it.
>
>
> Should have read the whole digest before sticking my bare butt out, eh?
>
> Tom
>
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:39:14 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: GFI II
I didn't say what the misconception was in the last bit. It is that a
GFI senses an imbalance between the phase and the neutral. This is not
so. In the case of a direct short between the phase and the ground wire
within an appliance there will be a 100% imbalance between the phase and
the neutral i.e. all return current will flow through the ground wire
and none through the neutral. That is exactly what the ground wire is
there for so the GFI does not sense a "ground fault" because there isn't
one. The ground is functioning perfectly. Now the regular circuit
breaker on this circuit will doubtless trip under these circumstances
but not the GFI. The case where the GFI (or ELCB as they are known in
Britain) will trip is where, for example, you touch the phase wire.
Current flows through you into the ground and back to the panel (where
the neutral is grounded). This current does not flow through the
GFI/ELCB so the sum of currents is not 0 causing this breaker to trip
even though the current is in the milliampere range.
- --
A.J. deLange
CT Project Manager
Zeta Associates
10302 Eaton Place
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359 8696
855 0905
ajdel at mindspring.com
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:57:59 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE: Mackeson's Triple Stout and Aeration post
This post had referenced the Cat's Meow compendium of recipes-
Many of these recipes mention brewing procedures that have been
clearly proved momilies or just plain wrong by newer or more scientific
practices by many of the contributors of this list. This list has been around
a long time (I started brewing in 1993 and it was pretty big then). It
seems that
those old recipes never get purged or updated, either (I could be wrong on
this).
While the CM is a good place to go to get a baseline start on a particular
brew, I would certainly be suspect of procedures and amounts in the recipe
based on the latest home-brewing practices.
Bob Sheck
bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, North Carolina
email:bsheck at skantech.net
- -------------DOG IS MY CO-PILOT------------------------
1010101010101010101010101010101010101010
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:43:38 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE: Nottingham Yeast
Ahh- Tim!
When you said you "panicked and added a second envelope"
I can infer that you normally just use ONE? Only one?
As a standard, I pitch at least FOUR, and then after re-hydrating
with cooled wort from the boil: I can then make sure it's viable and
has a clean scent to it, and my beer is usually bubbling away within
2 hours after pitch.
So many of us are pitching much to few yeasties! You can't over-pitch.
Also make sure you aerate the wort.
Cheers-
Bob Sheck / Greenville, NC /
bsheck at skantech.net
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:09:57 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: dubbels
Folks,
One of these days I hope to brew a dubbel. Anyone have some tried and
true advice and/or recipes to offer? I've read a fair amount on the subject
via Brewing Techniques, the Phil Seitz article at the Brewery and the
BJCP style guidelines, but I'm lacking info on percentages. The
aforementioned
articles discuss character and preferred ingredients, but not quantities.
Assuming I limit myself to the following ingredients, what approximate
amounts does the collective recommend? Possibly useful info: I'm very fond
of Unibroue's Maudite.
Pils malt
Cara-vienne
Cara-munich
Special-B
Sugar (I'll probably caramelize it myself as, I'm guessing that brown sugar
imparts an incorrect-for-style molasses note)
cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria BC, Canada
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