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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
refractometers and ProMash (Frank Tutzauer)
re: could it be a flamethrower ("Doug Marion")
Re: CO2 output (Jeff Renner)
gott v igloo - antifoam - nottingham yeast - fridge ? - mead yeast (alan rhodey)
Asset Purchase Agreement ("Rob Moline")
Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.... ("Adam Cooper")
Thanks ("Stephen Taylor")
240 volt GFI ("The Holders")
To replace the freezer or not. ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
Oak Barrels ("Gustave Rappold")
Defunked Chest Freezer ("D. Schultz")
Re: CO2 output (Spencer W Thomas)
Re: Amsterdam; what/ where to drink ("Gregor")
Amsterdam drinking establishments ("Joel King")
Response to Posting (ksc58)
cracked carboys (JGORMAN)
Hairline cracks, coolant,thanks (Dave Burley)
Chiller cooling water ("Tom Williams")
flatulance - Epazote ("jps")
Defunct freezer ideas (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com>
Re: Chiller cooling water (Steven)
What/If to Plant (Bob Hall)
RE: Amsterdam; what/ where to drink ("Walker, Randy")
Web Site of Interest (Richard Foote)
RE: Wort porridge (Joe Yoder)
RE: purge kegs with CO2, CACA details ("Czerpak, Pete")
GFI protection (Joe Yoder)
roasting huskless barley ("elvira toews")
Pats external cooled fermentor ("Czerpak, Pete")
Amsterdam (" Jim Bermingham")
RE: Graham abuse, carboy abuse, mash abuse, TO abuse (Brian Lundeen)
*
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Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:23:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: refractometers and ProMash
Hey, all,
The new version of Promash has refractometer calculators and reviewing
them raised some questions that I hope some of you refractometer users
can answer. I know there's not all that many of you, but that's
because refractometers are the CC fermenters of gravity measurement,
and people would rather brew bad beer than pony up the
bucks to buy one.... (That's a *joke*, folks!) Maybe if they're
lurking, Jeffrey Donovan or Louis Bonham could chime in (they
collaborated on the routines)--Jeffrey because it's his program, and
Louis because he's Mr. Refractometer ("Refractometerguy" just
doesn't have the same ring as "Fridgeguy").
Two issues: The first concerns the difference between the refractive
index of sugar water (which the refractometer measures) and the
refractive index of wort (which is similar, but not identical to,
sugar water). Ok, different refractive indices--seems reasonable.
In Louis' beer geek article (Jan. zymurgy?), he suggests a
correction factor of 1.04 (to be divided into the Brix reading) to get
the Plato of the wort. But in the ProMash help, Jeffrey suggests
calculating a "brewhouse" correction factor by taking several Brix
readings with the refractometer, dividing by the measured gravities
(in Plato), and averaging the results.
Question 1: Why should there be brewery to brewery differences? I
mean, maybe if I'm brewing some kind of oddball wort exclusively, then
ok, but I brew average sorts of an average variety of worts. Wouldn't
my brewhouse coefficient be pretty much the same as everyone else's?
Well, maybe not. I took 14 beers that I had both sets of data on
(measured Brix and measured OG). I converted the OG to Plato (using
the ASBC formula) and did the divisions. I got coefficients ranging
from .94 to 1.15 (IIRC), with most in the .98 to 1.02 range. When I
averaged, I got (drum roll)... 1.00. So in my brewery there's no
difference between sugar water and wort. I'm not sure I like the
sound of that, but it makes the calculations easier (actually, ProMash
does them automatically).
Question 2: Does the above seem reasonable?
The second issue concerns temperature corrections. My refractometer,
like most, has an adjustment screw. You measure the Brix of a drop of
water, and if it's not zero (presumably because of temperature), you
adjust the scale up or down, and then proceed. If you don't want to
actually make the adjustment, then ProMash let's you enter the offset,
which, as far as I can tell, is simply subtracted from any entered
reading.
Question 3: Why is it that my refractometer almost never reads
anything other than zero with water, no matter the temperature? I'm
not talking extremes, but in temps from 60 to, say, 75, I very, very
rarely get a reading other than zero.
The other problem with using the adjustment screw or the ProMash
offset is that the correction chart that came with my refractometer
shows that the correction depends not only on temperature, but on
sugar content too! For a given temperature, the correction factor is
larger as the Brix goes up. For very dilute sugar solutions, the
correction is negligible (which is probably why I get readings very
close to zero with water, regardless of the temperature). But for
high sugar concentrations, the correction is much greater.
Question 4: How can fiddling with an adjustment screw based on 0%
Brix water correct for temperature in a 12 Brix solution?
Thanks for your help, and I hope this hasn't been too geeky,
--frank
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:15:02 -0700
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: could it be a flamethrower
Gene Collins mentions the possible overkill of buying
three 160,000btu burners for his new three vessel gravity setup.
My opinion Gene is that it may be more than you will want. You don't
mention the size of your brews but I'll guess 10gal. In my
three vessel 10gal gravity system I have a 30,000btu under my HLT,
a 30,000btu under the mashtun, and a 100,000btu under the boiler.
For 10gal mashes, you don't need anything more than a 30,000btu.
For the HLT, I simply turn the burner on 15-20min before mashout
and by the time I'm ready to sparge the temp is up to 170 deg.
On the brewkettle for boiling, I never need the 100,000btu at or
even close to full bore. A 100,000btu at full bore simply is a
"flamethrower" and is unnessesary. I can just imaging a 160,000btu burner at
full bore. Don't get me wrong, the burner
is just fine and I like the ability to turn it up more than the
other two to get things boiling. You just don't need everything
it can give. Especially once everything is boiling and all you
have to do is maintain. You don't need much for that. The thing to keep in
mind is that it is nice (and sometimes necessary like when doing step
mashes) to turn the flame down. There is a point when turning the big
burners down that keeping them lit cam become a problem. Turning down the
30,000btu burners low enough is not a problem. If I were you, I would
reconsider maybe not having all of your buners be so big. Maybe just the
boiling kettle.
Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Doug Marion
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:06:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 output
One thing that today's posters overlooked in figuring how much CO2 is
evolved is the difference between apparent attenuation and true
attenuation, although Sean "Elvira" Richens mentioned it in passing.
When your 1.040 wort ferments down to 1.010, this is an apparent
attenuation of 75%, but it is skewed by the lower density of ethanol
(approximately 0.8). My recollection is that the true attenuation is
closer to 50% - in other words, about half of the dissolved solids
(mostly carbohydrates) are fermentable sugars.
Since each gram of fermentable sugar produces about 0.5 grams CO2,
and a mole of CO2 is 44 grams and occupies 22.4 standard liters, you
can compute CO2 production.
Using Sean's 1 deg. plato = 10 g. sugar/liter, 19 liters (5 gallons)
of 1.040 (10P) wort has 1900 grams of sugars, other carbohydrates and
other odds and ends such as proteins, of which perhaps half, or 950
grams, will ferment into more or less equal mass of CO2 and ethanol,
or 425 grams of each (actually, it's a bit less, but don't worry).
So 425 grams CO2 divided by 44 grams/mole = 9.7 moles CO2 times 22.4
liters/mole = 216 liters.
I think I did this arithmetic right.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:46:16 -0800 (PST)
From: alan rhodey <arhodeybear at yahoo.com>
Subject: gott v igloo - antifoam - nottingham yeast - fridge ? - mead yeast
Regarding the Igloo v. Gott, I have both, in ten gal.
sizes. The top on the Gott screws on, the Igloo just
fits down inside. Molded handles on the Gott, rope
handles on the Igloo. I've mashed with 23 lbs. of
grain with 29 qts. of water with no problem. The Gott
has an EZMasher from Schmidling and the Igloo Zymie's
Bazooka Screen and bulkhead fittings. I plan to go
with Zymie's stuff on the Gott if I can ever get
around to ordering. No affiliation with Zymie, except
that he's a brother BrewRat and donates money to the
club when members buy from him I have been doing all
grain for close to three years, around sixty or so AG
batches, and until last year, it was all indoors on an
electric stove, where I would mash enough for eleven
gallons and boil half in a six and one half gallon
aluminum pot. The other half went into gallon jugs in
the refrigerator until I could cook it another day.
No problem storing it like that if you fill the jug to
the top. I've had it sit for a week and a half with
no problems. Partially filled jugs will lead to
problems. I suppose I could have done five gallon
mashes but it didn't make any sense to me, and I had
the luxury of trying different hopping levels and
different yeasts with the same batch.
I'm surprised people still talk about blow off tubes.
I primary in six gallon corboys and seconday in 5 gal.
Corboys, with three bucket fermenters I use for
melomels. I use a product called Antifoam in the
boilpot to avoid boilovers and in the fermenters to
avoid foam on the floor. I occasionally get yeast
through the airlock, with high gravity stuff and
trappist ale yeast, but few drops of Antifoam will
calm it back down. I highly recommend it to everyone
for both purposes and especially to those who cook on
the stove. I get mine from Presque Isle Winery, but
Hop Tech and St. Pats both have it. No affiliation,
etc.
Speaking of foam in the fermenter, I recently tried
Lallemand's Danstar Nottingham yeast and found it has
a very compact head of foam when fermenting. I can
easily ferment six gallons in a six gallon corboy.
(They hold close to seven gallons, full.) Neat thing
was that it went from an OG of about 1.056 down to
1.008 in six days. For each corboy I used two packs
rehydrated in water for 15 minutes then mixed with a
half pint of canned starter. Started bubbling in an
hour. Cool. Again, no affilliation, except Gump is a
brother BrewRat.
Rod McBride asks about mead yeasts. Try a sherry
yeast. They do a helluve job of retaining fruit
flavor and are alcohol tolerant.
Question: I just got a refrigerator to run taps
through for colling and dispensing so I can free up my
freezer for lagering. I know I need a bottom shelf to
make four kegs fit and I need to remove the shelving
from the door and run the co2 lines through the side
of the door. Do I need the tubing St. Pats sells as
spacers for installing the taps? What's the best way
to cut the plastic stuff inside the door? Does anyone
have any other suggestions as to modifications?
Thanks for your help.
bear
Alan Rhodey
Pensacola, Florida
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:43:58 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Asset Purchase Agreement
Greetings,
Being involved in the sale of a Brewpub to a new owner, I wonder if any of
you have used the language offered by BATF regarding an "Asset Purchase
Agreement" document, that should offer the ability to act under the auspices
of the previous owners "Brewers Notice" and allow the continuation of
brewing while authorization of the new owners "Brewer's Notice" is achieved.
Having consulted BATF and CSA, I am newly aware that such animals do
exist...(surprise to me) yet wonder especially as to any liabilities that
would preclude the selling corporation from agreement.
Anyone have any experience with this?
Cheers!
Rob Moline
Lallemand
Court Avenue Brewing Company
brewer at isunet.net
jethro at isunet.net
515-450-0243 cell
515-282-2739 CABCO
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:52:06 -0700
From: "Adam Cooper" <aecooper2 at home.com>
Subject: Just enough knowledge to be dangerous....
hello fellow brewers,
As the subject line implies, I feel (probably like many others out there)
that I have been lurking long enough/picked up enough knowledge just to be
dangerous.
My question for the collective is as follows. I have 2 ss cornie's one ball
lock and
one pin lock (Pepsi & Coke) and would like to know/understand what they are
useful
for. I know that I can use them for either a fermenter (much recent
discussion)
sideways, upside down or spinning?? Or I could keg beer in them (novel
idea)...
How does a novice brewer do this? what kind of investment do I need to make
in
additional equipment?(faq or idiots guide to kegging would be helpful)
>From what I understand, I need to have some kind of cold storage/prep area
to keep cornies in... Correct? Is it possible store beer at room
temp and get a longer distribution line which I can coil in a cooler with
ice bath
and have cold beer on tap? Is it possible? Is it practical?
If I decided to use them as fermenters what kind of equipment do in need for
a
retrofit? What is the benefit over glass other than taking up coveted closet
space
(darkness not necessary). I currently use a7 1/2 gallon carboy for primary
& 6 gallon secondary).
PS: I am interested in any clone (extract or partial mash) recipes for Fat
Tire or
Abby from New Belgium Brewery In Fort Collins, CO. & or any clone recipes
for big Horn
Heffeweizen from big Horn Brewing Company in Fort Collins, CO.
Private e-mail is fine (aecooper2 at home.com)
PPS: Special Thanks to Mark Tomusiak from Boulder who sent me some great
info to
get started on my first Belgian beer.
Adam & Erin Cooper... Fort Collins, CO
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:52:10 +1100
From: "Stephen Taylor" <stephentaylor at one.net.au>
Subject: Thanks
Hi All,
Just a line to say thank you to all who responded to my questions
on yeast slurries on the hbd and private emails , much appreciated,
Steve Taylor, Newcastle,Australia.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:32:33 -0800
From: "The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: 240 volt GFI
Ron asks about 240 volt GFI's.
The least expensive would be a 240 volt GFI breaker, although I'm using a
Leviton high current GFI unit in conjunction with a contactor for my HLT.
The Leviton unit ran about $40, and the contactor another $30 or so IIRC.
I'm using the GFI to protect my equipment. Details can be found at
http://www.zymico.com/gfi.shtml
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:05:44 -0700
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: To replace the freezer or not.
Benjy Edwards drilled a hole through his
refridge lines and wants to know if he should
replace the unit or repair it.
Well sir, based upon my extensive knowledge, I
offer the following recommendation: 1) replace
the non-working freezer with working freezer, 2)
replace the working drill with a non-working
drill.
;-)
Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot.com)
Albuquerque NM 87111
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 1:39:58 -0500
From: "Gustave Rappold" <grappold at earthlink.net>
Subject: Oak Barrels
Dennis asked about oak barrels...
About 6 months ago I got a 15 gallon French Limousin Oak cask from St.
Pat's of Texas to try to make as authentic a lambic-style ale as I can, and
I must say that I love that thing. Besides my brewhouse, it's the piece of
equipment I most like to show off. Unfortunately, it was an expensive
addition, so you really have to decide what you want to do with the cask
before you plunk down your cash.
Basically, there are two types of oak used, American and French. The
American wood is generally not used for beer because it's way too 'oaky'.
Even after repeated chemical strippings your beer may come out tasting like
pencils! The French oak is much milder, and after one stripping with
'Barrolkleen' I racked the wort and pitched my cultures. So far, so
good-can't even taste the oak yet. Hopefully by next year it'll have just
the right oakiness.
There is a very important component to casks that you MUST consider! If
your cask should develop a leak, do you know how to fix it? Perhaps if you
live near a winery, you may be near a cooper. I wonder what he gets for a
house call?
If I haven't scared you off yet, try St. Pat's of Texas (www.stpats.com),
or Brewin' Beagle (www.brewinbeagle.com) for an oak cask. St. Pat's is a
full service homebrew store and Brewin' Beagle specializes in Real Ale
dispensing systems.
Gus
My web pages...http://home.earthlink.net/~grappold
- --- Gustave Rappold
- --- grappold at earthlink.net
- --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:44:51 -0800
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz at qwest.net>
Subject: Defunked Chest Freezer
>. . . you know the rest. I hit a coolant line
>and my sobs of pain were drowned out by the endless hissing noise of all of
>the R134a leaking out.
Wow! Sad story. Before you do anything to your next freezer, check out my
freezer at my web site at http://www.users.qwest.net/~d2schultz/ . You'll
never set a drill to another freezer.
If you live in a cold climate, the defunked freezer would make a nice
fermenting chamber combined with a thermostat and a heater (during the
winter).
Burp,
-Dan
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 03:10:58 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 output
Yes, it can be calculated. This is a bit long-winded, but should be
fairly easy to follow.
Geek note: all the calculations in this note are done done with
"round" numbers. For example, I know that you can't multiply the %
sugar by the volume to get precisely the number of grams of sugar in
the solution. But it's "close enough" given the approximations in
some of the other numbers (rounding 22.4 liters/mole to 22, for
example.)
2 grams of sugar, fermented, produce (within a couple of decimal
places) 1 gram of ethanol and 1 gram of CO2. (and 0.005 grams of
yeast, which is why it's not exactly 1 gram of each. :-)
The original SG can be converted to grams of sugar by converting it to
"points" (1.040 = 40 points), dividing by 4 to give sugar percentage
by weight, and multiplying by the number of liters of wort times 10.
Now, 1 liter of CO2 weighs just about 2 grams, so 1 gram of CO2 is 1/2
liter.
And the last problem is that the ethanol depresses the final gravity,
so there is really a bit more sugar left in the beer than you would
computed by the straightforward method above. (I.e., a 1.010 final
gravity does not indicate 2.5% remaining sugars, but instead to almost
4% remaining sugar. Or, looking at it another way, a beer that
started at 1.040 (10%) and ended at 1.010 (not 2.5%) had a drop in
sugar content of 6%, not the apparent 7.5%. Again, roughly, if you
compute the difference in SG and multiply it by 4/5, you'll be pretty
close to the "true" drop in SG, ignoring the ethanol.
Whew!
So, putting this all together, we get:
CO2 liters = CO2 grams / 2.
CO2 grams = sugar grams fermented / 2.
sugar grams fermented = sugar % fermented * 10 * liters of beer.
sugar % fermented = 0.8 * (original % - final apparent %)
original % = 1000 * (original SG - 1) / 4
final apparent % = 1000 * (final SG - 1) / 4
Of course, you'd work it from bottom up. Let's take a concrete
example, first. 20 liters (a bit more than 5 gallons) of 1.040 beer
ferments to 1.010.
Original % = ((1.040 - 1) * 1000) / 4 = 10
Final apparent % = ((1.010 - 1) * 1000) / 4 = 2.5
sugar % fermented = 0.8 * 7.5 = 6.0
sugar grams fermented = 6.0 * 10 * 20 = 1200
CO2 grams = 600
CO2 liters = 300 (79 gallons)
To put it in terms of grams of CO2 per millilter per degree SG
difference, we have to pull the lines together.
In particular, we start with
sugar % fermented = 0.8 * (original % - final apparent %)
= 0.8 * 1000 * (original SG - final SG) / 4
= 200 * SG difference
Now we can work on up the chain, using 0.001 liters (1 milliliter) as
the volume of wort:
sugar grams fermented = sugar % fermented * 10 * 0.001 liters
= sugar % fermented / 100
= 2 * SG difference
CO2 grams = SG difference
CO2 liters = SG difference / 2
Again, with real numbers (1.040 to 1.010 fermentation), I get 0.030/2
= 0.015 liters or 15ml of CO2 per ml of solution, or (again) 300
liters for a 20 liter batch.
"Rob" claims 0.3 ml CO2 per ml of solution per degree change in SG.
If we realize that he's really using "points" ((SG - 1) * 1000), then
my number is reasonably close to his (0.5 is close to 0.3), given that
his number came from an attempt to measure the evolved CO2 (I wonder
- -- did he ignore the CO2 that stayed dissolved in the finished "beer"?
That could add 1ml of CO2 per ml of solution, or so.)
Finally, he made a simple error in his calculation:
(0.3007) * (40 - 10) = 9 ml CO2 / ml beer
= 9 gal CO2 / gal beer
for a total of 45 gal CO2 from 5 gallons of beer using his numbers.
=Spencer
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:53:44 +0100
From: "Gregor" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: Amsterdam; what/ where to drink
I lived in Amsterdam for 4 years and want to recommend
"Brouwerij 't Ij" to you warmly.
It's a micro which brews the very best beers of Amsterdam:
1 Pilsner (Plzen)
1 Dubbel (Natte)
1 Tripel (Zatte)
1 Barleywine (Struis)
1 sort of IPA (Columbus)
I love all of them. Especially the Columbus. Very belgian!
Whenever I visit Amsterdam, I drink there excessively and buy
myself a crate!
Don't have the adress right now, but I guess, you find it in
many guides to Amsterdam (paper and web).
Their opening times are kind of weird though: 3 pm - 9 pm from
Wednesday to Sunday.
There are many other places too where you can get very nice
belgian beers. But this is really the best!
Have fun!
Gregor
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:52:24 -0000
From: "Joel King" <joel_d_king at hotmail.com>
Subject: Amsterdam drinking establishments
Steve G. asked about beers / places to drink in Amsterdam.
I've passed through a few times on business the last few months. Haven't
found any local beers. Hoogarden is available in some bars. But the last
time I was there a bartender recommended I try a Belgium Beer Cafe. The
word "Gollem" was associated with that Cafe, but I'm uncertain if that was
the name of the Cafe or the name of street the Cafe is on. The bartender
said it was about a 20 minute walk from Central Station, and wasn't hard to
find. When I go back in April I intend to look it up, but haven't been
there yet and can't tell you anymore about it.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:23:33 -0500 (EST)
From: ksc58 <kcada at cas.org>
Subject: Response to Posting
In response to Benjy's request for an applications for a non-functional
chest freezer on 3/20 (see below), I have a small, old chest freezer that
died of old age. I use it to store my grains in my basement since it
affords a bug/vermin-proof storage area that serves somewhat as a moisture
barrier and is well-lit by the interior light when you open the lid. Of
course you have to disconnect the wire to the compressor, but on mine it
just unplugged from the power cable that entered the unit. I do still
have my grains in plastic bags in metal containers to avoid moisture from
creeping in!
Cheers!
Ken Cada
kcada at cas.org
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:58:08 -0500
From: "Benjy Edwards" <rdbedwards at hotmail.com>
Subject: anyone else this unlucky?
Ok, so maybe I wasn't unlucky, just stupid.
After drilling two holes in my GE chest freezer 8 months ago to install a
cask breather, yesterday I tried drilling 4 holes to install a co2
distribution manifold, and . . . you know the rest. I hit a coolant line
and my sobs of pain were drowned out by the endless hissing noise of all of
the R134a leaking out.
Has anyone else been through this? Right now I'm trying to ascertain from
GE and repair guys whether it's worth repairing or if I'm better off junking
it and buying a new one. Sadly, the freezer is only 1 year old, but I've
been told that fixing the new sealed units isn't worth it. What's the
opinion of the group on whether to repair/replace? If I should replace it,
does anyone have any ingenious homebrewing applications for a non-functional
chest freezer?
Any input appreciated,
Benjy
rdbedwards at hotmail.com
- ------------------------------
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:00:00 -0500
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: cracked carboys
>>>Darrell wrote -Two times I have found hairline cracks on the bottom of my
glass carboys
in the last 2 months.>>
I have a similar incident but more catastrophic. Last December I had a nice
Belgian Holiday ale done and ready to bottle (5 gallons worth). The gravity
sample tasted incredible. I was moving my glass carboys around to get to one.
The carboy with the Holiday Ale barely touched another glass carboy and it
shattered almost explosively. Five gallons of beer all over my brewery. All
I could do was sit, watch as it poured over the table on to the floor and cry.
I now put every glass container in a milk crate or bucket to avoid contact.
Jason Gorman
Leap Resident Engineering
554-2519
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:18:46 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hairline cracks, coolant,thanks
Brewsters:
Darrell is convinced that rousing his yeast is causing hairline cracks in
his carboys.
I doubt it. Likely these hairline cracks were there because the carboys you
have are from Mexico and were not properly annealed
( I've seen a few at a brew shop like this). OR you are submitting the
carboy to some sort of thermal stress like maybe pouring boiling hot water
into the carboy when it is resting on a nice, cold, thermally conductive
tile floor or or maybe in a metal sink. Try adding hot water in stages -
warm and then hot and putting a cloth underneath the carboy to give it some
insulation. Remember these carboys are <not> Pyrex (R) and are susceptible
to thermal breakage.
- --------------------------
Alexandre in discussing his innovative chilling method makes the statement
to the effect that you have to use glycol to get better chilling than just
plain water.
Hain't so. Last time I looked, water had the highest heat capacity of all
common liquids. Water will do just fine for chilling. It is just
potentially corrosive and it freezes at 0C ( important if you have a really
cold chiller) , which is why glycol or a glycol/water mixture is used in
commercial systems. If you want to use water and drain your system, chances
are very good it will work fine.
Glycol poses a danger as a leak in your system could cause you to produce a
poison. If it tastes sweet or your beer is green and it's not St. Paddy's
day, you may have glycol contamination. Be careful with glycol.
- ---------------------------
Thanks to all for your kind comments here and in private e-mails on my
"return" to HBD. I'm likely the happiest!
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:31:20 -0500
From: "Tom Williams" <williams2353 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Chiller cooling water
In two consecutive posts, I have suggested using tap water as a wort cooling
medium assuming an unlimited supply at negligible cost. Bob B. correctly
observes that not all brewers actually have an abundant supply of tap water,
as I do. For brewers in this situation, I think Steven's closed loop
immersion chiller makes more sense. I stand by my previous observation that
the ice bath needs to be larger than normal, since all of the heat removed
from the wort will be rejected in it.
Gratuitous additional suggestion: try water instead of glycol. From my
days as a design engineer, the only times I recall using glycol in a heat
exchanger was to keep it from freezing in cold weather. Otherwise, water
does fine as a heat exhange medium when all expected conditions are between
freezing and boiling.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:38:47 -0500
From: "jps" <segedy at gsinet.net>
Subject: flatulance - Epazote
Recent post about flatulance leads me to consider the use of the herb
Epazote which is used in Mexican cooking to relieve said condition. I was
planning on growing some this year to experiment with in cooking. Does
anyone have experience with this herb in brewing. Not sure how to do a
controlled experiment with it... perhaps some fancy methane detector as I
drink??
John Segedy
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:52:42 -0500
From: "Steinbrunner, Jim (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com>
Subject: Defunct freezer ideas
Benjy Edwards posted:
>...Sadly, the freezer is only 1 year old, but I've
> been told that fixing the new sealed units isn't worth
> it. What's the opinion of the group on whether to
> repair/replace? If I should replace it, does anyone have
> any ingenious homebrewing applications for a
> non-functional chest freezer?...
I've thought about using a defunct freezer as an
insulated box for a fermentation chiller ala Ken Schwartz
( http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/ ) or Doug Brown
( http://members.citynet.net/kbrown/Doug/Brew/closet.htm ).
I've built a "Son of Fermentation Chiller" from Ken's
plans and it works well, but a defunct freezer would give
more room. I've also considered putting a defunct freezer
fitted with a thermostat and hair dryer or other heater for
wintertime lagering in my Michigan garage. One of these days
I'll call an appliance dealer to see if I can get a dead
freezer for free.
Any comments on these ideas?
Jim Steinbrunner
Midland, MI
New Michiganders' HBD motto:
"Si quaeris cerevisiae amoenam circumspice" ;)
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:00:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: Chiller cooling water
Water waste is a concern, since I have not measured how much water is used
I cannot really speak from experience on how much is wasted. I've borrowed
a wort chiller to try out so I will see. Overall my idea was to has as
efficient and effective a wort chiller as possible while being somewhat
compact. It might be more trouble than its worth, given the water waste is
somewhat lower than I expect. I've even thought of using those freezable
packs to eliminate the ice water waste.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:13:53 +0000
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: What/If to Plant
There seems to be a lot of interest and experience in growing hops, and
I'm thinking about using the windmill on my farmstead as a hop trellace.
But first a couple of questions:
1) Which varieties are best suited to the Mid-West climate, eg. hot
summers, cold winters?
2) What about insects and disease control/resistance? I fought the good
fight but finally turned over the grapes and raspberries to Japanese
beetles. Won't even bother with the hops if JBs are a big problem.
3) Is it best to use one or two rhizomes per hill?
Any other tips appreciated. I see that BYO magazine has a feature on
growing hops this month and will pick up a copy.
Thanks,
Bob
- --
Bob Hall, Technology Director
Napoleon Area Schools
Napoleon, OH 43545
PH 419.592.6991
FAX 419.599.7638
nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org
"I can too be spontaneous ....
with a little warning."
-- Significant Other
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:22:20 -0700
From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr at littongcs.com>
Subject: RE: Amsterdam; what/ where to drink
Take the Heineken brewery tour. I took the tour in 1985, and
after the tour we were given all the beer that we wanted
for about an hour. Talk to others in your group and
you will probably meet people from all over the world.
Buy a couple of the Heineken porcelain mugs. They make
great momentos.
Randy Walker
Salt Lake City, UT
walkerr at littongcs.com
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:47:44 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Web Site of Interest
Brewers,
Here's a web site I came across in doing one of my many searches. They
specialize in small quantities of metal items of interest to brewers.
Check 'em out at:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/
NANEASCYYYY (no affiliation not even a satified customer yet yadda yadda
yadda)
Hope this is helpful.
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing Co.
Murrayville, GA
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:42:54 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: RE: Wort porridge
Steve G. wrote:
The SG when we racked was around 1.012
and tasted fine.
So what's the concensus, did I give him bad advise
and screw up his batch?
To which I reply:
Steve, you answered your own question. See above where it says "tasted
fine". How can this be a screw up?? Drink fast though, there is no
doubt excess starch in this brew which could lead to latent infection.
Sounds like a good excuse to get a bunch of people together to drink up
your friends brew!!
later,
Joe Yoder
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:11:40 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: RE: purge kegs with CO2, CACA details
Geez, I post some info on purging kegs and number of purges vs. remaining
atmosphere and I get all jumped on. Just kidding there. I was just posting
the info since I ran into it in a current trade article and I thought some
might be interested. I am not saying its the best or easiest way to do it.
merely an option with some numbers to back it up so that people who do one
purge know they are not completely ridding the keg of air.
I find that its actually easier for me to purge my kegs rather than push
water out. I would rather waste the CO2 than the water I guess plus it
takes me a while to fill them with water.......
Either way, I do not sanitize my kegs between uses (they are never open or
depressurized before I rinse them out immediately before filling) although I
do sanitize perhaps 2-4 times per year and when I get them from the supplier
(not neccessarily the best idea but no documented problems yet). So they
are pretty much empty when I get ready to fill them, I rinse with hotwater
and drain, fill with beer via siphon from carboy and then purge with CO2
before closing them up to get rid of air before putting them in the fridge
on gas.
My CACA (aka. "B.T.G. Cream Ale (Better than genny)" from last week is
looking pretty good. It had tons of cold break presumably due to all the
corn used - flaked maize at 25%. Little hazy looking before going to
secondary. details are 25% maize, little carapils, little 20l crystal, 1 lb
munich, remainder as english 2 row. infusion mash. yeast was nottingham
slurry from previous batch stored 3 days,, OG = 1.053 (no FG yet since its
going to secondary tonight) , and hops were cluster and hallertauer to about
35-40 IBU. Little more hops than I desired originally but I had to boil for
15 extra minutes with the hops since I forgot about the finishing hops and
chiller boil until the end of my normal boil cycle. ohh well, I like
hops.... Recipe was a combination of Jeff renners and Paul Shicks (from
Ohio) from perhaps 1999 or 2000 HBD CACA searches. I do live in NY but not
as close as one might think to the land of Genny.
Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:52:33 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: GFI protection
Joe Kish wrote:
When you have a GFI mounted in a room, all of the
120 volt outlets in that room are protected by that
GFI. You don't need to use an extention cord to
find another GFI. Leakage to ground from other
outlets will trip that GFI.
Joe Yoder replies: (3 times this week, I think my de-lurk button is
stuck)
This is just a tad misleading especially to those of us with old homes
that have been rewired a number of times. I think what Joe means is
that if you have a GFI on a circuit all the other outlets on the circuit
are protected. Just because 2 outlets are in the same room doesn't mean
they are on the same circuit.
later,
Joe
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:57:30 -0600
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com>
Subject: roasting huskless barley
Dennis asks:
Also roast barley is near impossible to obtain where i live, so I
roasted it myself. But the only barley i can just buy is dehusked, is
this a problem?
You could call it "Carafa barley". It should be a bit smoother than you
want for making that perfect Guiness clone, but if I'm ever in Delft I'd
love to taste the results.
I got to nibble a few grains of an amber-roasted barley from Eritrea. They
were the most beautiful plump kernels with a completely uneven colour. I
would toss a half-pound in a mild ale.
Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:58:49 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: Pats external cooled fermentor
I think Pat babcock presented his design for the Cajun Cooled Fermentor. I
would maybe recommend one thing - use some heat transfer cement (they
probably sell this at a plumbing store as Thermon or Zeston or something
like that).
make sure to check if it requires heat to cure it or if it is water sensitve
(as some of these things fall apart with moisture). they use them in the
process industries like food, pharm, and chemcials for keeping vessels and
pipes hot and cold if the coils are not welded. I have used it a number of
times myself back when I was an intern during plant shutdown time.
the basic deal is that they offer better heat transfer than just the coils
wrapped tightly because they replace convective heat transfer with
conductive heat transfer to the vessel wall. In fact, the numbers that I
have seen show 25 to 50x better heat transfer. Tightly holding these coils
to the fermentor and good insulation can go a long way however if you don't
want to go the route I mention above.
I do plan on probably getting a Son of Fermentation Chiller myself though
when they are available later this spring. Looking forward to trying it out
Ken..
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:46:21 -0600
From: " Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Amsterdam
Steve G. ask where to drink when in Amsterdam. Try the Old Sailor on Canal
Street. After a drink or two you can go window shopping. Ah! those were
the days. Long ago and so far away.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:55:49 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Graham abuse, carboy abuse, mash abuse, TO abuse
Jerry Pelt writes:
> Graham. I'm sorry you've decided to play in your own
> sandbox without all your Yank friends. Keep the sand
> out of your shorts, it plays hell on your zwickel.
>
I too miss Graham and I have theory as to why he packed up his bag and went
walkabout. I think we were all too nice to him. Nobody laid more abuse on
Graham than his fellow countryman, Phil, and vice versa, and I think that's
what they are most comfortable with. In spite of Steve's best efforts, and
Steve, nobody could have expected you to do more, Graham just didn't get
enough abuse here. He's gone to be with others of his kind, good natured
thugs that will smash you over the head with large pieces of wood, and join
you in a round of hearty laughter and backslapping as the blood pours down
your face.
Australians. Insult them, and they will come.
Darrell Leavitt ponders his carboy problems:
> Two times I have found hairline cracks on the bottom of my
> glass carboys
> in the last 2 months. I often will swirl the carboy....sometimes
> violently...and I think that this may be the error in my ways.
>
> So...please don't do as I do....rouse the yeast, but....do it gently!
>
> I know that this sounds very odd....but cannot think of any other way
> that they could get cracked.......
Always a possibility but carboys can also develop cracks from washing or
rinsing with very hot water. I'm sure there's a name for what it does,
thermal stress threshold overload or some such thing. If you're using hot
water, stop it. I would even consider replacing any carboys that have been
so treated. They could be timebombs even if they have no visible signs of
stress at this time. Often, visible cracks are the terminal stages of a
progressive disease, and offer about as much warning as someone shouting,
"Look out for the tru..."
As for safe rousing, consider a Fizz-X, a stirring device that attaches to
your drill. Be careful with it. It can release CO2 in a most spectacular
manner. You don't want to turn your carboy into Mt Brewsuvius.
John Van Hove writes:
> Maybe some of you gray-beards in the audience could diagnose
> the problem
> immediately, but I didn't know what his problem was and
> wanted to see his
> procedures first-hand.
> I normally do infusion mashing, not direct heat, so I
> couldn't be sure, but
> the bubbling black tar in his pot looked nothing like any
> mash I had ever
> seen.
I don't consider myself a grey-beard, although my wife does gleefully point
out any additions to the few SILVER toned hairs that are SLOWLY adding
character to my temples. In any case, the bubbling should have been the
tipoff. Mashes should never, ever bubble (OK, main mashes, obviously
decocted portions have to bubble). Bubbling indicates that at least part of
your mash is at the boiling point.
Darryl Newbury writes of my insensitive teasing:
> On Brain's other comment, that is his attempt to bring me
> into a debate
> about thriving homebrew clubs makes me wonder ... are there
> thriving clubs
> in other large cities our efforts in Toronto have thus far be
> futile at
> organizing a clubs
First off, let me say that given the number of times that my name gets a
couple of letters swapped, I am just thankful that I was not named Idoit.
In spite of my taunts (perhaps I'm part Australian), I feel very badly for
how things have gone in TO. I firmly believe that without the involvement of
a couple of local homebrew supply stores in getting their regular customers
out, I probably would not have had as much success when I started up our
club. Yes, I suppose this makes me a bad person for promoting Paddock Wood
at their expense, but like I said, all-grain stuff is just not a significant
part of their business. Perhaps you have tried that approach there, but I
think it's an important part of getting a club started. Lions know that the
watering hole is a good place to meet up with a wildebeest. Sometimes a
certain camaraderie develops when regulars run into each other at their brew
shop, and this is a natural starting point for basing a club around. Anyway,
seems to have worked here. I wish you luck. Perhaps Rennerian (0,0) in May
will have a bonding effect on those present, and the club will blossom.
Let's face it, how can anyone not want another excuse to drink beer?
Cheers,
Brian
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