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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Sugar Content in Fruit (Road Frog)
Welding Copper to Stainless won't work (John Palmer)
Attenuation, oatmeal, sparge temps ("Peed, John")
re: Don't do this (Scott Perfect)
PSBO Judging Sheets ("H. Dowda")
Oaken Barrels (Tracy and Doug)
Newcastle Clone Questions ("Hedglin, Nils A")
Re: Oaken Barrels (Jeff Renner)
Re: Beer & flatulence (Jeff Renner)
Re: Don't do this: (stencil)
re: don't do this - cracked carboys (Don Price)
RE: anyone else this unlucky? ("Dave Childs")
The ice man cometh. (Gene Collins)
You asked for a flame thrower (Petr Otahal)
re: More Wide Ranging Questions ("Rob B")
AHA First Round Call for judges/stewards (first call) (Joe Preiser)
AHA Book Choice Suggestions (Denis Bekaert)
("plotek")
OK, you Oz Brewers: (Bob Sheck)
Re: CO2 Output ("Joel King")
Carboy Handling ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
flatulence, dead freezer ("Mark Tumarkin")
ProMash and Refractometry ("Louis K. Bonham")
Amsterdam - How to drink ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
Australian Abuse (FatCat FatCat)
more gfci hogwash (AlannnnT)
Refractometers & ProMash (Jeffrey Donovan)
Flame Throwers ("Vinbrew Supply")
HELP!!! Liquid Yeast ("Matt Carter")
Room-wide GFCI coverage (The Man From Plaid)
Limited water/closed system chillers (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
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* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:07:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sugar Content in Fruit
I had looked at the brewery library, but I guess not
very closely.
http://www.hbd.org/brewery/library/SugAcid.html
Fruit Sugar Content Acid Content
%of fresh weight %of fresh weight
Lime 1% 5.0%
Avocado 1 0.2
Lemon 2 5.0
Tomato 3 0.5
Cranberry 4 3.0
Red Currant 6 1.8
Grapefruit 6 2.0
Guava 7 0.4
Cantaloupe 7 0.2
Strawberry 7 1.6
Raspberry 7 1.6
Blackberry 8 1.5
Papaya 8 0.1
Apricot 9 1.7
Watermelon 9 0.2
Peach 9 0.4
Black Currant 10 3.2
Pear 10 0.1
Honeydew 10 0.2
Orange 11 1.2
Plum 11 0.6
Blueberry 11 0.3
Gooseberry 11 1.8
Passion Fruit 11 3.0
Prickly Pear 11 0.1
Mango 11 0.5
Pineapple 13 1.1
Pomegranate 13 1.2
Apple 13 0.8
Cherry 14 0.5
Kiwi 14 3.0
Persimmon 14 0.2
Fig 15 0.4
Grape 16 0.2
Banana 17 0.3
Litchi 17 0.3
So there you go.
Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs, TN
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:39:19 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Welding Copper to Stainless won't work
Hi Group,
Just in case this hasn't been addressed already, you can't weld dissimilar
metals together because welding is melting/mixing and some metals won't
dissolve into each other. It's like oil and water. Now in some cases you
can add vinegar and make a salad dressing that will hold together for a
while i.e. you can add a tertiary metal that will create a metastable
solution with the other two (e.g. leaded brass). But generally when you
weld different metals together they crack.
For dissimilar metals, you can braze or solder. Silver solder is the best
bet unless you have the facility to do furnace brazing.
Someone mentioned JBWeld epoxy. That may work too. What may work best is a
close fitting water jacket that the copper tubing would be in, with the
water providing the intimate contact and conduction to the steel. That way
you won't have to try heating everything up. Just a thought.
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com
Let there be Peace on Earth.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:33:37 -0500
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Attenuation, oatmeal, sparge temps
Jerry says he's never used a starter and all his beers are fine. You lead a
charmed life, Jerry. My biggest problem when I started brewing was
spoilage. Once I got the sanitation under control, my biggest problem was
lack of attenuation, resulting in sicky-sweet beers. Since I started using
good starters (or repitching) and oxygenating, that problem has disappeared
and my brews have improved tremendously. Try repitching your yeast, I think
you'll like it.
As for Steve and his wort porridge: No Steve, ya done good. The oatmeal
goes into the mash, right along with all the other grains. Now if it had
gone into the boil, you really would have had a fine mess. It sounds to me
as though it did what it's supposed to do, which is thicken the body of the
brew. The gravities certainly sound reasonable.
Major VanHove's thermometer story was a riot. I repeat: Williams Brewing
has a first-class mercury-filled glass calibration thermometer that is
accurate to half a degree. It's $35, but well worth it in my opinion. This
baby is for calibration only, way too fragile for brewing use. I snapped my
first one just by trying to shake off excess iodophor (yes, I was violating
the rule and using it for brewing in an emergency). Williams also has the
metal dial thermometer with a 12" stem and a calibration nut, for about $13.
Accurate to within a degree or so in the normal brewing range, and pretty
sturdy. Again though, be careful shaking the iodophor off, as you can snap
the stem right off .
Now for my problem. Before I knew better, I used to run the sparge as fast
as it would go. Efficiency was miserable, but the mash temperature stayed
in the mid 160's for the duration of the sparge. Now that I know better, I
run the sparge as slowly as possible. Efficiency is greatly improved, but
now my mash temp drops to the low 140's. I use a pump to transfer the water
from the HLT into the mash tun. As a matter of fact, it's a RIMS setup and
the water comes out of the HLT, into the pump, out of the pump and through a
copper coil that's submerged in the HLT, then into the mash tun. You'd
think that passing back through the sparge water (at 170 degrees) would make
up for any losses in the pump and most of the hoses, but apparently not. If
I throttle the flow way back (ball valve at the mash tun inlet) and do a
steady sparge, the mash temp drops into the 130's. If I do batch sparging,
the mash temp stays in the 140's (this is after mashing out at 166 - 167).
Anyone got any suggestions for getting the temp up into the 160's? The only
thing I can think of to do is add a bypass valve just in front of the
throttle valve, such that I could purge the water in the pump and hoses back
into the HLT before starting each batch sparge. Better yet, run the sparge
constantly, keeping the bypass valve fully open all the time, and crack the
throttle valve just enough to maintain sparge flow into the mash tun. That
would keep the water recirculating into the (temperature regulated) HLT, and
that should correct any line and pump losses. Plus, it will introduce
turbulence into the tank and improve the heat transfer.
Thanks guys, that was really helpful! Seriously, I just now figured out how
to solve the problem as I was explaining it (that happens a lot, doesn't
it?) Might as well go ahead and post it ... maybe it will be useful to
someone else.
John Yust, you better straighten up, boy, we're keeping an eye on you.
John Peed,
Knoxville, TN
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:37:01 -0800
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: re: Don't do this
Darrell writes:
"Two times I have found hairline cracks on the bottom of my glass
carboys
in the last 2 months. "
... "Now I am not entirely certain, but am usually very careful to
place
them down gently when I move them...and I THINK that this MAY be ther
//the// result of over-enthusiastic rousing of the yeasties at the end
or near
the end of the primary. I often will swirl the carboy....sometimes
violently...and I think that this may be the error in my ways."
... "I know that this sounds very odd....but cannot think of any other
way
that they could get cracked......."
Me:
Maybe, but I suspect that the cracks are due to thermal stress. A hot
water rinse followed by relatively rapid cooling of the bottom of the
carboy (via cold water/wort or placing the carboy onto a cold floor)
can create the tensile stresses necessary to form a crack in the glass.
Scott Perfect
San Ramon, CA
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:25:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: PSBO Judging Sheets
Has anyone received their judge comments from the PSBO
in Atlanta?
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:34:52 -0600
From: Tracy and Doug <tracylyn at enteract.com>
Subject: Oaken Barrels
Dennis,
I have also been interested in aging beer in oak, but have not yet had the
extra cash available to purchase the barrel (so many brew toys, so little
money). check out the following article:
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/OakBarrelExp.html
The Grape and Granary carries the barrels:
http://www.grapeandgranary.com
I've never ordered from them so I don't have any feedback.
Hope this helps,
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
- ----------------
Tracy and Doug
tracylyn at enteract.com
- ----------------
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:27:54 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Newcastle Clone Questions
Hi,
I'm going to be making the Newcastle's Clone from the Cat's Meow (recipe
below), & I've got some questions.
Ingredients:
3.3 lbs British pale malt extract
3.3 lbs British amber malt extract (or less)
1 lb turbinado sugar
8 oz British dark crystal
4 oz chocolate malt
4 oz wheat
2 oz Fuggles at 45 min (or williamette or styrain goldings)
.5 oz Fuggles at 10 min (optional)
Wyeast 1028 London Ale
1) Would the extract by liquid or dry, or does it matter? Does liquid
equate to dry at a 1:1 ratio?
2) Is there a big difference between British & American extract?
3) Just curious what such small amounts of grain will do? 4 oz seems pretty
small. Is the chocolate is for color? & the crystals for additional
fermentables? What about the wheat?
4) Any suggestions on what else to use besides turbinado sugar if I can't
find it? The recipe mentions that the English have a dark brown, possibly
raw, sugar. Is this the raw sugar that you can get with your coffee?
5) The recipe says to boil for 60 mins, but to add the Fuggles at 45 min.
What's the 1st 15 min of the boil for if you don't have the hops in it?
6) To my uneducated brewing eye, it seems like this might recipe might be a
bit bland, only 1 lb of specialy grains & optional aroma hops. I'm used to
using 2-3 lbs of specialty grains instead. I'd like to get more flavor out
of the recipe. Any suggestions on what grains I might add & what I'd have
to remove to balance it? What would the affect of the different types of
bittering hops be (fuggles vs williamette vs styrain goldings)?
Thanks again, the help & info from this list has been invaluable.
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:05:18 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oaken Barrels
Dennis <io185467 at student.io.tudelft.nl>, who appears to be in the
Netherlands, asks:
>I'm planning to try aging my brews in small oaken barrels for while.
>Does anyone have any experience with this?
I aged some dry cider in a new oak barrel and the oak flavor
overwhelmed everything else. I'd suggest removing this flavor
somehow. The first batch of beer should do it. In my case, filling
and soaking it for weeks with water and sulfite didn't remove it.
Perhaps adding bicarbonate of soda would hlep. Maybe you'll like the
flavor, though.
>Also roast barley is near impossible to obtain where i live, so I
>roasted it myself. But the only barley i can just buy is dehusked, is
>this a problem?
I don't think this should be a problem. I've roasted pearl barley,
which I think is close to what you have.
Good luck.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:38:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Beer & flatulence
Nils wrote:
> >4) Any way to reduce the undesirable flatulent affects of beer?
As opposed to the desirable effects?
Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com> then wrote:
>Now how do we reduce the sulfur compounds in our beer?
You don't want to! Sulfur compounds are a part of hops flavors and
the "lagery" flavor of lagers.
I have found that my body has gotten used to whatever produces this
effect. Some have suggested over the years (this is not anywhere the
first time it's been a topic on HBD) that yeast is the culprit.
Others have suggested the high level of residual unfermentable
complex carbohydrates in hombrew. That is my guess - gut bacteria
can digest them but produce gases and the offending sulfur compounds
as byproducts.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:47:36 -0500
From: stencil <stencil at bcn.net>
Subject: Re: Don't do this:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:12:07 -0500, in
Homebrew Digest #3587 (March 22, 2001)
darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>Two times I have found hairline cracks on the bottom of my glass carboys
>in the last 2 months.
> [ ... ]
>Now I am not entirely certain, but am usually very careful to place
>them down gently when I move them...
It's best never to set a heavy glass object down on
anything but a resilient surface - rags, styrofoam sheets,
coiled mats of old pvc tubing, whatever. Carboys, panes
of window glass, aquariums, all are subject to spontaneous
crack formation when local stresses rise past a limit.
Run your hand around the base of a carboy and you'll find
that it's smooth, ok, but not flat, and those dips and
bumps are the problem. You can use scrap pvc to make a
ring-mat and thread that through the hem of a replacement
basketball net, which will make a convenient handling sock
for the carboy.
stencil sends
RKBA!
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:27:59 -0500
From: Don Price <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: re: don't do this - cracked carboys
Could it be that you are subconciously cracking your carboys in an
attempt to justify getting one of those spiffy stainless steel
cylindroconical (or whatever) fermenters? I dreamed I cracked one of
mine last week....
Don
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:17:12 -0700
From: "Dave Childs" <DaveC at CerebusCorp.com>
Subject: RE: anyone else this unlucky?
Yep. Did the very same thing a few months ago.
In my case, I made a very small hole, and was able to slap some duct tape
and a hose clamp around it, so not all the fluid was lost. I found a small
appliance shop that was willing to take a look at it, and they soldered the
leak and topped off the lost fluid for less than $100.
I'd say it's worth some more phone calls, depending on how bad the hole is.
Here's a tip for all considering doing this... when I brought the freezer
home after its repair, it was in the back of my pickup during the winter.
After bringing it into the warm house, I noticed condensation just over the
condenser lines, identifying their location. Sure wish I'd noticed that
before I started drilling...
Good luck.
Dave
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:21:47 -0600
From: Gene Collins <GCollins at cranecarrier.com>
Subject: The ice man cometh.
We who are lucky enough to have a second refrigerator in the garage to
support our hobby will appreciate this. Hopefully, my tradegy will be
someone else's triumph. Mr. Duddles will have a laugh.
I was given a refrigerator that was in perfect working order. I plugged it
in, allowed it to cool down, and lo and behold, it worked great. It had an
automatic ice maker, so I thought....and ice cubes to boot!
I piped some water to it, didn't work. Oh well, at least I tried.Forgot all
about it and went on with my life. Kept the beer cold so, who cares right?
Tuesday, I noticed it seemed warmer than usual and a lot of water in the
lower compartment. I thought it seemed like a lot of condensate. It turned
out that the supply valve to the icemaker finally decided to flow, dumped
water across the evaporator, and freeze it and the fan solid. Advice: if the
icemaker doesn't work, turn off the water to it. Took me nearly an hour to
defrost it all with a hairdryer. Gratefully, no lost beer!
Gene Collins
Regional Service Manager
Crane Carrier Company
918-832-7336
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:20:21 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: You asked for a flame thrower
Steven Parfitt and Gene Collins are looking for burners.
Checkout this page for a few different burner designs, I have made a micro
mongo design and it works exceptionally well, particularly if you want to
melt the bottom of your pot ;~)
Check out both the Reil and Mongo type burners on this page and decide
which is easier to make.
http://www.webpak.net/~rreil/design.html
Cheers
Petr
>Gene Collins <GCollins at cranecarrier.com> is looking for burners.
>I'm at the same point with my system. (Check Photopint for pix) However I
>plan on making my own burners after the design used by Steve Jones. Photos
>at :
>http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew/gadgets.htm
>under 3-Tier and 2-Tier systems.
>These are Jet Type burners. I have seen tehm in action, and they work quite
>well. Construction is 1/4" iron pipe, with a section of 2"diameter iron pipe
>as the venturi/mixing chamber. Cost should be minimal, and if you are
>building several (I'm planning on three) the work should be minimal as well.
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:23:11 +1100
From: "Rob B" <rbyrnes at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: re: More Wide Ranging Questions
Mark Tumarkin spake thus:
> Subject: re: More Wide Ranging Questions
<snip>
> No, Radler is a German concoction - traditionally a combo of beer &
lemonade,
> I believe it got it's start among German bicyclists and became popular
from
> there
In Australia and the UK, this is called a "Shandy". Once commonly a ladies
drink, back from when men occupied the main bar and the Ladies had their own
lounge. (Up until about 35 or 40 years ago this was the way it was in
Australia :)
Cheers,
Rob
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:42:58 -0600
From: Joe Preiser <jpreiser at mediaone.net>
Subject: AHA First Round Call for judges/stewards (first call)
Calling all BJCP judges and stewards.
The Great Lakes region (IL, IN, WI, MI) is seeking BJCP judges and
stewards for the AHA NHC First Round.
Judging will be held on April 28-29, at Rock Bottom-Chicago located at
the intersection of State St. and Grand Ave. in Chicago, IL. Breakfast
and Judge sign-in will begin at 8:30AM. Judging will begin promptly at
9:00.
Interested BJCP judges and stewards can obtain further information, and
register, at our web page, http://www.chibeer.org/NHC/.
You can also contact one of the following staff members for additional
information.
Site Coordinator, Jeff Sparrow (jeff at chibeer.org)
Judge Coordinator, Joe Preiser (joe at chibeer.org)
Steward Coordinator, Zemo Holat (zemo at chibeer.org)
People interested in "Beds-for-Brewers" (either have a bed or need a
bed) should contact Brad Reeg at beej at chibeer.org.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:49:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Denis Bekaert <Denis-B at rocketmail.com>
Subject: AHA Book Choice Suggestions
Well, I finally decided it was time to join the AHA.
One of the perks they offer is a choice of two free
books with membership....and I need some suggestions
as to which one to choose. The choices are "Tips and
Gadgets" and the other is "101 Ideas for Homebrew
Fun" Suggestions anyone?
BTW, the question on Star-San dilution was quickly and
fully answered...thanks to each of you. The consenus
is that it can be saved in the diluted state for
months as long as it stays clear and should have a ph
of around 2-3. Just cover it and keep it in plastic
since the acid will react with SS over long periods of
time.
OK, now I'm headed back to my home brew refrigerator
for a refill....
Denis
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:42:35 +1100
From: "plotek" <plotek at optushome.com.au>
Subject:
Finally a post that all Australians can relate to: Farting.
>
> Its a habit we develop soon after stepping off the boat
> and becoming bonafide Oz. WE use it to cheer the
> newly wed and to salute the recently departed.
>
> As a matter of fact, not a day goes by where we
> dont go into the division chiefs office and let one
> rip,
>
> Our favourite fart is the famous dutch oven, the
> one where we silently pass one under the blankets
> and then hold our dearly beloveds under the sheets.
> Coopers pale ale was ACTUALLY developed to
> enhance this very process.
>
> So when we Aussie brewers see such attentiveness
> to the the anal expurgation we can honestly say
> that you seppos are alright!
>
> And thanx for the tip about broccoli, my wife
> is truly gratefull.
>
> Yours in taste
>
> Mudguts
>
>
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:48:20 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: OK, you Oz Brewers:
What's this?
http://www.pi55.com/Frame-html.html
Bob Sheck/ DEA / Greenville, NC
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:06:52 -0000
From: "Joel King" <joel_d_king at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Output
As Spencer Thomas pointed out to me (oops) I gooned the math in my post (it
was me, not Rob). To satisfy the point Jeff Renner raised, while we
compensated for temperature in our specific gravity measurements, I made no
attempt to convert from apparent to real attenuation. We fermented four
worts, with OG's of 1.010, 1.020, 1.030, and 1.040. We captured the gas as
it was evolved, corrected for the amount left behind in solution, and
measured the apparent FG. The amount of CO2 evolved, divided by the volume
of the fermenting wort, was plotted against the drop in apparent gravity,
and a curve fitted. So these are empirical results from one 6th grade
science project. If I were to use the results to calculate the amount of
CO2 generated from 5 gallons of beer fermenting from 1.040 to 1.010, I would
estimate it to be: (Hold your breath, folks, maybe I'll get the math right
this time)
5 = 5 gallons wort
0.3 = 0.3 vol CO2 per vol wort per point SG (expressed as whole #'s)
(40 - 10) = drop in SG
Volume CO2 = (5)(0.3)(40 - 10) = 45 gallons of CO2
Spencer Thomas, working from the fermentation reaction equations and
compensating for things like apparent -v- real attenuation, comes up with a
higher number. Again, YMMV!
- --Joel King --
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:16:47 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Carboy Handling
Jason Gorman advised: "I now put every glass container in a milk crate
or bucket to avoid contact."
One thing I do which avoids glass to glass contact is that I put a heavy
sweatshirt over each carboy. I primarily do this to cut our light and
to insulate a tiny bit to smooth out temperature changes but should I
bump them when I am moving them, it is thick cloth on thick cloth.
Hides them a bit, too, when folks who might make more out of 10 gallons
of brew are about. I also store them on wooden storage shelves again
because that's what I have available but it avoids concrete flooring
touching glass.
Alan in PEI
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:27:49 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: flatulence, dead freezer
Interesting note on the flatulence theme - last night I was reading Brown Ale,
by Ray Daniels & Jim Parker. Good book, one interesting part is a section on
herbs and spices used by brewers in England before hops became common. On page
101, I found the following -
"Clove: Clove was used as a flavoiring in ales and blended with aloe to cure
flatulence."
so if you're trying to avoid excessive flatulence the plan would be: keep the
brocolli out of your beer, add clove and aloe, serve as a real ale with low
carb level. maybe ... but somehow I doubt it will work.
and speaking of flatulence, I had a brain fart concerning the dead freezer.
don't know if this would work, but I suspect it would -
if you haven't scared yourself totally off of making holes in working freezers
(or use a collar as suggested by Dan Schultz) - you could get a new freezer to
use for dispensing and then run an insulated tube (possibly with small muffin
fan & thermostat) from the working freezer to the dead one. you could then use
the working freezer for colder serving temps in the 50's and the dead freezer
as a fermentation chamber with warmer temps in the 60's (or higher, depending
on your yeast & beer style). Since the main freezer wouldn't be working at
full capacity anyway, I suspect this additional load wouldn't be a problem.
(what do you think Forrest?).
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:30:40 -0600
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: ProMash and Refractometry
Hi folks:
Frank Tutzauer has some refractometry questions about the new version of
ProMash. Before I dive in, if you're using a refractometer in your brewing,
I *strongly* suggest checking out this program. The formulas that I have
posted here and in my recent Zymurgy article all involved some rounding or
truncation to make them reasonably easy to use. Jeffrey Donovan was able to
code the "full bore" equasions (more accurate), as well as seamlessly
integrating the refractometer utilities into his top-notch program. [BTW, I
had a lot of fun working with Jeff and the ProMash beta testers on this . .
. I'd send Jeff my wish list of geeky refractometry conversion routines or
utilities, within days he'd have them coded and implemented in a new beta,
and then they'd be tortured tested and critiqued by the beta squad.]
OK, on to the questions:
>Two issues: The first concerns the difference between the refractive index
of sugar water (which the refractometer measures) and the refractive index
of wort (which is similar, but not identical to, sugar water). Ok,
different refractive indices--seems reasonable. In Louis' beer geek article
(Jan. zymurgy?), he suggests a correction factor of 1.04 (to be divided into
the Brix reading) to get the Plato of the wort. But in the ProMash help,
Jeffrey suggests calculating a "brewhouse" correction factor by taking
several Brix readings with the refractometer, dividing by the measured
gravities (in Plato), and averaging the results.
The literature on this is that the correction factor is usually between 1.02
and 1.06, and varies from brewhouse to brewhouse. The 1.04 factor has been
suggested as a rule-of-thumb, and that's why I cited it in my Zymurgy
article and why ProMash uses it as a default setting. However, since Jeff
wanted to go whole hog on the latest version of ProMash , we also included
the ability to allow the user to calculate and use his own brewery specific
correction factor.
>Question 1: Why should there be brewery to brewery differences? I mean,
maybe if I'm brewing some kind of oddball wort exclusively, then ok, but I
brew average sorts of an average variety of worts. Wouldn't my brewhouse
coefficient be pretty much the same as everyone else's?
Back to me: In this case, I have to fall back on the literature. The
Roberts 1950 ASBC paper reports that the correction factor was generally
constant within brewhouses, but varied from brewhouse to brewhouse. As to
*why* this is, I can only speculate. The point, however, is that generally
you are better off using a 1.04 correction factor than none at all, but the
best thing to do is to calculate and use your own particular correction
factor.
>Well, maybe not. I took 14 beers that I had both sets of data on
(measured Brix and measured OG). I converted the OG to Plato (using the
ASBC formula) and did the divisions. I got coefficients ranging from .94 to
1.15 (IIRC), with most in the .98 to 1.02 range. When I averaged, I got
(drum roll)... 1.00. So in my brewery there's no difference between sugar
water and wort. I'm not sure I like the sound of that, but it makes the
calculations easier (actually, ProMash does them automatically).
>Question 2: Does the above seem reasonable?
Back to me: the <1.0 coefficients (especially ones that are less than 0.98)
sound flaky to me. Have you calibrated your hydrometer? Were your OG
measurements temperature corrected (and is your thermometer calibrated)?
If you're sure that your OG measurements were correct, then don't worry, but
I'd place a small wager that your gravity measurements are slightly off.
>The second issue concerns temperature corrections. My refractometer, like
most, has an adjustment screw. You measure the Brix of a drop of water, and
if it's not zero (presumably because of temperature), you adjust the scale
up or down, and then proceed. If you don't want to actually make the
adjustment, then ProMash let's you enter the offset, which, as far as I can
tell, is simply subtracted from any entered reading.
>Question 3: Why is it that my refractometer almost never reads anything
other than zero with water, no matter the temperature? I'm not talking
extremes, but in temps from 60 to, say, 75, I very, very rarely get a
reading other than zero.
Back to me: Frank is correct; the offset screw is for temperature
calibration. The Brix reading of wort or a sugar solution will vary with
temperature. However, unlike a hydrometer measurement, the temperature of
the sample is largely irrelevant, because the greater thermal mass of the
refractometer will quickly bring it to ambient.
Most refractometers are originally calibrated at 20C (68F). If your ambient
temp is not +/- 5C (9F) of this, the differences may not be noticeable . . .
. for example, pure water at 75F (Frank's upward limit) will read only
about -0.23 Brix on a refractometer that is zeroed at 20C. On the other
hand, if you're like me and the ambient temp on a summer brew day is over
100F (I brew outside), then the offset can be well over -1.0 Brix.
>The other problem with using the adjustment screw or the ProMash offset is
that the correction chart that came with my refractometer shows that the
correction depends not only on temperature, but on sugar content too! For a
given temperature, the correction factor is larger as the Brix goes up. For
very dilute sugar solutions, the correction is negligible (which is probably
why I get readings very close to zero with water, regardless of the
temperature). But for high sugar concentrations, the correction is much
greater.
>Question 4: How can fiddling with an adjustment screw based on 0% Brix
water correct for temperature in a 12 Brix solution?
Back to me: Frank is again correct; more concentrated solutions require
slightly greater temperature corrections than water. For our purposes,
however, this doesn't really matter. For instance, let's look at Frank's
example. If the refractometer is zeroed at 20C, then at this temperature
water will measure 0 Brix and the solution will read 12 Brix. At an
ambient temp of 25C (76F), water would read -0.33 on this refractometer, and
the solution would read 14.64. (Data source: CRC Handbook tables).
However, if you simply zero the refractometer at this new ambient (i.e.,
you're adjusting the scale to add 0.33 to all the measurements), then the
sample would read 14.97. I daresay that difference (0.03 Brix) is within
the noise range of just about every handheld refractometer available.
If you're really worried about this, just take your refractometry
measurements at an ambient temp of between 19-21C (66-70F), and the
differences will be less than 0.01 Brix. If you're paranoid about it, get a
bench refractometer with plumbing connections to a constant temperature
bath, and take the readings are precisely 20.0C. ;-)
All the best -- LKB
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:38:49 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Amsterdam - How to drink
I worked in Aalsmeer near Amsterdam in 1986 for a few months and there
were a few Dutch drinking habits that I had to learn about. These may
be obsolete or may be local to the town or to the working type guys I
was drinking with.
1. In certain bars, patrons bought trays of 6 oz. round draft glasses
and pass the tray into the crowd themselves. I saw this twice and
certainly not in higher end places. You are expected to take a beer
off of someone else's tray and not your own and pace the purchase of a
tray according to the whole crowd;
2. Do not necessarily pour your beer down the side of the glass. A
beer without head can be seen as a a "dead" beer and not worth drinking
- like we might think of flat pop ("soda" for you down south).
Drinking the foam is the a significant part of the function of the
little round draft glasses;
3. Heineken [and no doubt others] makes a low alcohol Oude Brun which is
to be drunk as a chaser to Dutch gin - "geneever" with the initial "g"
sounded like a very liguidy gutteral "ch". [Scots parents gave me a
linguistic advantage here] This was an old guys drink but I worked with
some old guys;
4. "Tasty" is a word sounding something like "lekker." When you share
a meal say something that sound like "at-ah smakaluk" or "Eat
heartily/flavourfully";
5. A well placed favourable comment such as "you know...this is a little
better than similar German or Belgian beer" would not go unnoticed - may
not be true at the given moment but it would be a kindness that would be
appreciated; and
6. I think I recall tipping in a bar was a no-no then, the look in
response being "we get good wages in Holland, buddy."
Again, this may all have been local, socio-economic or of that time. I
may all have no application in brew pubs. If you have the time get out
of Amsterdam by local bus to a surrounding village and you may find a
good country pub as well.
Hope this is of use.
Alan in PEI
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:59:37 -0800 (PST)
From: FatCat FatCat <fatcat at homebrew.com>
Subject: Australian Abuse
Brian L. rightly suggests that Australians
respond to abuse like tarts to a waived
fiver. However, one does wonder why.
Seems being Australian would be abuse
enough for anyone.
Perhaps our friends from NSW (I wonder
were 'old' South Wales is located?) have
been afflicted by the terrible epidemic
of encephalitis purported to be in the area.
Something to do with swine and humans who
care for them (I assume that is husbandry).
One hopes not and an indication of their
physical well being would be welcome.
God save the Queen.
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:14:05 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: more gfci hogwash
Joe Kish writes,
<< When you have a GFI mounted in a room, all of the
120 volt outlets in that room are protected by that
GFI. You don't need to use an extension cord to
find another GFI. Leakage to ground from other
outlets will trip that GFI.
Sorry Joe, you missed it on this one. The GFCI's presence in a room has no
bearing on the wiring scheme in the rest of the room. The GFCI could be on a
a different line or at the end of a line. In either case, it wouldn't protect
you.
If, and only if, the GFCI is at the beginning of a line, and is properly
installed, it may provide adequate GFCI protection down the rest of the line.
But not the necessarily whole room !
This is especially relevant if the GFCI was installed for the purpose of
protecting a high amp draw appliance, such as you might find on a countertop
in a kitchen. The installer might have made the line dedicated to the outlets
mounted to the backsplash. The floor level outlets could (and should) be on a
different line, and therefore unprotected.
My very average kitchen has a 20 amp line with GFCI on the countertop, but
the floor level outlets used for the fridge and vacuum cleaner or whatever,
are not GFCI. National code suggests that the fridge in your house NOT be
connected to a GFCI.
GFCI circuitry is not required or suggested for most household outlets in
your home. It is usually limited to outdoor, garage, bathroom and kitchen
lines within certain distance to the water supply. Floor level outlets
(outside the bathroom) most likely will not be GFCI, even if there is GFCI
elsewhere in the room.
Alan Talman
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:24:14 -0800
From: Jeffrey Donovan <jeffrey at promash.com>
Subject: Refractometers & ProMash
Regarding Frank Tutzauer's refractometry questions I believe LKB's response
covered it all (thanks Louis!) so I will not rehash.
I did however want to make the group aware of the on-going refractometer
study we are conducting, which is hoped will provide more insight and data
points for the ongoing quest of even better predictive formula(s). You'll
find complete details about the study in the help section of ProMash,
"Refractometer Study and Data Collection". We have set up a separate email
account to collect results which will also be forwarded to LKB for further
analysis, and that email addy is refractometer at promash.com .
I also wanted to thank Louis for the collaboration and say what a blast it
was working with him on these utilities! I really feel we developed some
solid refractometer tools that will be of help to the brewing community.
Be sure to participate in the study if you can,
Cheers!
Jeffrey Donovan
Beer Engineer
The Sausalito Brewing Co.
jeffrey at promash.com
jeffrey at beerengineer.com
http://www.promash.com
http://www.beerengineer.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:25:42 -0500
From: "Vinbrew Supply" <devans at greenapple.com>
Subject: Flame Throwers
I used to believe you had to have the biggest burners(175,000 BTU) until a
new supplier sent me a sample burner. This burner is only 75,000 btu and
kicks ass. I really do not see a difference in the amount of time needed to
bring ten gallons to a rolling boil. I did some checking into the
difference between the two size burners and what I found out was that there
was an incredible amount of waste using the big 175,000 burners. It is very
unlikely that you use the whole 1750000 btus available to you. So instead
of selling the 175,000 I opted for the 75,000 Btus. Another advantage of
the 75's is the noise of the burner is not noticeable at all..
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:40:18 -0500
From: "Matt Carter" <carterm at ombwatch.org>
Subject: HELP!!! Liquid Yeast
I popped some liquid yeast on Wed to use Saturday, and it got off
to a rocket start, puffing all the way up by Wed night. I've got it in
the fridge now because I figured a three day warm time would be
bad, but I don't want to have a huge delay in my fermenting
because of putting in cold yeast.
I could do a starter, but I've only got one bag of extract, and that
gets a little messy when you try and take "just a little bit" out.
Will bringing my yeast packet back up to room temp before I pitch
it help with a speeder fermentation start, and, more importantly, will
this harm the yeast?
Please respond directly, because I hope to be brewing tomorrow
morning!
Thanks!
Matt
carterm at ombwatch.org
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:56:15 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Room-wide GFCI coverage
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Mmmm. The best way to get GFCI coverage in an entire room is to use a
GFCI breaker at the box as opposed to a GFCI outlet.
Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a GFCI device determines abnormal current
through its own terminals. To achieve GFCI protection in an entire room
using only one outlet would require that outlet to be wired IN SERIES with
any other outlet in the room - a configuration known as "feed through",
supported by better GFCI outlets. In most cases, outlets are wired in
parallel - wiring in series would require something be plugged into each
series-wired outlet to get power at any. Not a good plan. To
get your room-wide protection, you would have to identify the
FIRST outlet in the room's circuit, and wire the GFCI as "feed
through" at that point. Also, be sure to use a GFCI rated to
take the same amount of current as the fuse or circuit breaker
for that room - after all, ALL current into the room now must
pass through that outlet.
To find the first outlet, open the breaker and remove an outlet from the
circuit (DO NOT wire nut the wires together. Protect yourself by putting a
wire nut on each wire, but do not tie the wires together. You want to open
the circuit.) Now, close the breaker and check each outlet in the room.
Those that are "dead" are downstream from the outlet you removed. Any
retaining power (assuming that they are all on the same circuit breaker)
are upstream - the one you selected is not the first in the circuit. Open
the breaker, replace the outlet and remove the outlet that still had power
FARTHEST from the one you had originally removed. That *should* be the
first one. Check it anyway :-) In my experience with my house, my sister's
house, my folk's house and Kim's folk's house is that any outlet on the
wall with the room's light switch and closes to the switch is usually the
first in the run. It's as good a place as any to start...
By the way, don't assume all outlets in any given room are on one breaker,
either. Best bet is to open the breaker and then check to ensure none of
the outlets retain power....
(LIT BSEE '88)
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:18:28 -0500
From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer at indsys.ge.com>
Subject: Limited water/closed system chillers
Bob Bratcher mentioned (indirectly) my well problems. (I fully intend to dig
a new well, I just haven't quite gotten around to it...)
I collect all of the waste water from my immersion chiller. Most of it I use
for cleaning up the equipment. Any remaining is used to water plants. Before
I started to collect the wastewater, it was a crap shoot if my well would
run dry before I finished cleaning up. On a couple of occasions, the water
ran out and I still had hop splooge on the kettle (converted keg). The
inside of the keg is now pitted from leaving that stuff on the kettle
overnight....
Relating to the closed system cooler... In a former life, I worked for a
company that made small permanent magnet brushless dc motors. We had a low
voltage (600 V) magnetizer (which means bigass current). One of our motors
had to 10 poles, and had to be magnetized from the inside with less than a
1.8" diameter. So, lots of current in a very small area. To run it at
production volumes, of course the fixture had to have a closed system
chiller. It was a good sized unit (on wheels, maybe 18" W x 24" D x 30" H).
I borrowed it one day and hooked it to my immersion chiller. I was thinking
Turbochiller. I got microchiller. I let it run about 45 minutes before I
gave up and hooked the immersion chiller to the garden hose. So if you are
thinking about a closed system chiller, you better be prepared for all of
the heat you will be removing from the wort!
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity
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