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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  oak and that lumber yard taste ("Richard & Laura")
  Munich without the Hofbrauhaus? (RBoland)
  0.5 pH ("A. J.")
   ("plotek")
  Animals (Ray Kruse)
  Fw: Refrig of a different color ("Arnold Neitzke")
  casks & flavors ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Munich--skipping Hofbrauhaus ("Larry Maxwell")
  20 Tank (Bob Wilcox)
  Yeast and beer color (Dave Burley)
  Re: More on pH (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Yeast Coloration (Jeff Renner)
  Caraffa question (leavitdg)
  Re: stove brewing (Peter Torgrimson)
  Tragic News ("Bob")
  re:More on pH (Jim Adwell)
  Er... wots a 'lambic'! ("Gustave Rappold")
  suggestions/questions for Wyeast 2565 Kolsch ale yeast (Don Price)
  Re: Homebrew Digest Request (March 31, 1901) ("Marc Gaspard")
  leapin' luddites, Batman! ("Doug Moyer")
  Yates/Pivo Pilsner, Mark 2 ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Re:  Smooth top stove --  Oxygenator (Bruce Wingate)
  First All-Grain Brew Session Debriefing (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  malted oats (Marc Sedam)
  Delirium Nocturnum ("Steven Parfitt")
  clogged SS airstone (Marc Sedam)
  2001 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition ("David Houseman")


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* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:11:48 -0700
From: "Richard & Laura" <dromedary at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: oak and that lumber yard taste

Ant Hayes wrote:

"I bought a new 5 litre oak barrel in an attempt to follow Dave Line's
recommendations on "Beer from the Wood" - Unfortunately, I don't drink 5
litres in a day very often, and so I ended up with a well wooded bitter -
vaguely reminiscent of chardonnays in the early 90's."

Now, Ant's got it mostly right--California Chardonnays still have that
"chewing on a pressure-treated piece of lumber" taste to me. And, the
Aussies have taken up the "aged in oak" affectation too! I had a perfectly
gruesome Aussie "Shiraz" at a tasting last week. The winemaker proudly
announced that his swill was aged in "American oak."

I also tasted a highly touted, California Cabernet-flavored "oak punch" that
had the distinctive "cat pee" aroma (I didn't taste it, couldn't get past
the aroma!) that only comes from a Brettanomyces infection.

So, what is an oak barrel good for? Ruining wine and making lambics. Not a
damned thing else in my opinion! Please, HBD readers, please don't help
start a new American affectation in brewing. We've already put one joke over
on America by passing off Cascade-hop-tea as IPA. No Oak!

RBD




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:35:34 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: Munich without the Hofbrauhaus?

Not visiting the Hofbrauhaus when in Munich is like skipping the Cable Cars 
or Golden Gate Bridge when you're in San Francisco!  You don't go for the 
beer.  You go to observe the place, get a sense of its size and history,  
hear the band play Sukiaki (but not Soul Man - because they are a German 
band), and otherwise take advantage of the opportunity to see someplace 
unique and famous.  Then go and get some real beer at Agustiner, Paulaner, 
etc.    I'd also take an extra day and visit either Ayinger or Andechs; great 
beer in very different environments.  If all you want is outstanding beer, go 
to Brussels instead!  But be sure to walk through the Grand Platz on your way 
to or from a cafe.

Bob Boland
St. Louis


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:54:05 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: 0.5 pH

I think you will find that a half unit of mash pH would make a very
noticeable difference in the final product as enzyme activity will vary
appreciably over that range. The old argument that our forefathers made
beer without hydrometers, thermometers or pH meters can always be
advanced but no one knows what those beers tasted like. Furthermore, in
an industrial setting things are very different from what they are in a
home brew setting. In the industrial situation the same beer ( or small
number of beers) are brewed over and over again. Over the years the
process is adjusted intentionally or by accident and changes for the
better retained. Thus a brewer may have noticed that he got better beer
when he added gypsum than when he didn't. Reasoning that more is better
he may have continued to experiment with gypsum additions to the point
where the beer was, in his opinion, worse and then reverted to an
earlier gypsum level that gave him a result he liked best. Thus the
brewery gradually optimizes its product over the years for the materials
at hand with no instrumentation other than the brewmaster's palate. You
can be reasonably sure that mash temperatures, whether determined by
observation of the brewers reflection or sticking a finger in the mash
or simply by virtue of the fact that a certain volume of water heated
for a given period of time over a fire built a given way were probably
pretty closely controlled to about the appropriate level. Similarly, the
same amount of malt from the same maltster added to the same amount of
water heated for the same length of time would give a wort of about the
same gravity. Consistent addition of a measured (by volume) amount of
gypsum to such a mash should give repeatable mash pH which was doubtless
within a much tighter band than 0.5 pH units. What I'm trying to say is
that these old brewers controlled the same parameters we do, they just
did it indirectly i.e. without the instruments we have. Of course their
methods did not allow them to compensate for things like variation in
malts or seasonal changes in their water supplies unless they had
observed that, for example, less gypsum would be required in the spring
because of melt-off and I'll bet they did observe things like that.  All
this might be compared to the Polynesian navigators who got from point A
to point B with fair regularity sans GPS, sextants, LORAN etc. They got
navigational information from simply looking at stars, observing wave
diffraction patterns etc.

The homebrewer never brews the same beer twice (even though he may
strive to). Quantities are smaller to the extent that thermal mass
doesn't help us stabilize mash temperatures (or strike water
temperatures) and, let's face it, we don't have the experience those
commercial brewers of yore did. As such we are aided immeasureably by
instruments such as thermometers and hydrometers. They replace a hell of
a lot of experience at minimum cost. pH meters are in the same class
except for the fact that they (good ones) are quite expensive and most
beginning brewers don't understand enough about them and their foibles
to use them correctly. Properly calibrated and employed a pH meter will
tell you that a kettle wort mashed at 148 for 1 hour with a gravity of
13 P and a pH of 5.6 is not the same wort as one mashed at 148 for 1
hour with a gravity of 13P and a pH of 5.4 and you shouldn't expect to
get the same beer from it.

Clearly there are lots of opinions and a fair amount of philosophy in
the above. Take these comments with that in mind.

A.J.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 06:50:48 +1000
From: "plotek" <plotek at optushome.com.au>
Subject: 

Well that last post on the malted oats
seemed interesting!!!

Did you malt the from seed?  if so what was
 the source of such oat seed. I cant imagine
feed lot oats would have been sufficient.

The idea of roasting the malted grain
or roasting a combination of malted
barley/oats may produce some interesting
results.

Now to look for a supplier of oats
withing rolling distance of my place

All in the cause of experimentation


Muddie




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:33:25 -0500
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Animals

The Man From Plaid wrote:

>>instruments????


They brewed beer which many of us would likely not enjoy. The use of tools
is what separates man from the animals (with the possible exception of
otters)...
As I understand it, in some Michigan locations they use crowbars to do 
the separation.

On a more pleasant note, while in Grand Rapids recently, I visited Big 
Buck's with Eric Fouch and Fred Garvin.  Food and beer were both pretty 
good.  The waitress explained that the restaurant was associated with 
Bass Pro and that new franchises were being built in tandem.  Just heard 
this week that Bass Pro is putting a shop into Arundel Mills Mall.  
Where was the announcement about Big Buck???

Ray



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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 06:42:48 -0500
From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke at ameritech.net>
Subject: Fw: Refrig of a different color

 Thought that with the interest of this group, this information may be
enlightening.

 http://www.refresearch.com/m-audiffren.html

 http://www.refresearch.com/m-icyball.html

 I was at this place and these two (as well as others) were actully
operating.

 AJN
Brighton, Mi




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:58:17 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: casks & flavors

John Biggins wrote: "Has anyone tried a make a fake-cask conditioned beer or
mead by
trying to replicate the cask flavor by adding...say, bourbon or
sherry to the boil (evaporating the alcohol, but leaving the
"cask-iness" of the liquor behind in the wort/must)  I suppose this
is similar to adding liquid smoke & other adjuncts to duplicate other
styles.  Just curious."

Ray Daniels replied with an excellent post focusing on the cask-conditioned
issue (go figure), but there was another side to John's question - that of
adding bourbon, sherry, etc to the beer. It has become fairly common over the
last couple of years for brewpub brewers to age beer in used whiskey kegs to
gain flavor as a finish. Usually this is done with a stout, porter, or other
big, flavorful beer where the flavors you pick up add to the complexity rather
than become the dominant theme. The oxidative effects that Ray discusses also
can add complexity (old ale type character) to these beers where they wouldn't
be wanted in say a bitter or pale ale.

That said, can we duplicate these flavors on a homebrew scale? Well, you could
get a whiskey barrel and use it as the pros do, but they are expensive and,
more importantly, large. I doubt many of us brew on the scale to fill one and
thus the oxidation would be overwhelming. John asks about putting bourbon in
the boil, I suspect that not only would the alcohol be boiled off but that
you'd also lose a lot of the flavor. This is just a guess, never having tried
it - experiment if you like.

As evidenced by the recent thread about buying barrels; some homebrewers like
the taste of oak, or perhaps the romantic image of the beer aging in oak. This
is despite the reality presented by Dave Burley in his post a few days ago.
When oak barrels were used, the woodiness was considered a fault and breweries
lined the barrels with pitch to avoid picking up the oak flavor. Still, some
people like a slight oak flavor. One way of getting this is to put oak slivers
or shavings into your secondary. You could first soak these shavings in
bourbon, or other alcoholic beverage of your choice. This would pick up some
of the whiskey flavor and also help with the sanitation issues. Or, easier
yet, just add some whiskey to your beer. Try it with a single pint and add the
whiskey slowly to suite your pallet. You can then get a good idea of how much
to add to your 5 gal (or whatever) batch. Or just add the whiskey to the
occasional pint when you're in the mood. This is a simple way to get the
flavor if you want it.

John also mentions adding liquid smoke - please don't go there! Smoke beers
can be wonderful - but usually the better smoke beers use restraint and
balance. With liquid smoke it's like dumping an ashtray in your beer. I guess
it'd be possible to add just the right amount, but the homebrewed beers I've
tried with liquid smoke taste like an ashtray. I think liquid smoke adds
undesirable flavors and is also oily. It's possible to use extracts (fruit,
hazelnut, etc) well, although many times you can detect that 'extract flavor'.
But with smoke, stick to smoked malt.

just my 2 cents,

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:05:25 -0500
From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Munich--skipping Hofbrauhaus

For the guy thinking of a side trip to Munich, I disagree with
those who advise skipping the Hofbrauhaus.  I think it's an
experience.  Rick Steves, the travel writer, "warned" that
it's the kind of tourist place where you're likely to see soused
Japanese businessmen hoisting liter mugs and singing along
to "Take Me Home Country Road."  I wasn't disappointed
at all in this regard :-)  Don't go for the beer--go to see how
foolish tourists can look when they really try.

Larry




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 06:41:27 -0800
From: Bob Wilcox <2bobw at home.com>
Subject: 20 Tank


Nils 
If you are looking for Twenty Tank Brewers. You may wan't to get a
hold of Shaun O'Sullivan at this address  <shaun at 21st-Amendment.com

He did brew at Twenty Tank and may be able to help you.
He is Brewing at The 21st Amendment in San Francisco and doing a very
fine job 






=====================================================
Bob Wilcox
Alameda & Long Barn Ca.
2bobw at home.com
Draught Board Home Brew Club
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:02:56 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast and beer color

Brewsters:

Nils says he noticed a big difference in his beer color fermented with
Irish Ale and London Ale Yeast just as the beers were just finishing
fermentation. The London appeared much darker. I suspect this was due to
the difference in the rate of fermentation of the two yeasts, London being
higher because it sometimes has two kinds of yeasts - a flocculent variety
and a powdery variety to polish off any remaining sugar.  If the London
appeared darker it may simply be because there was less yeast in
suspension.  Check the beers after they have both clarified, probably not
much difference. Let us know.
- --------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:04:03 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: More on pH

"Fred Kingston" <Fred at kingstonco.com> writes

>How significant is .5 deviation
>in pH?????? Can anyone in the universe taste a difference in beer made with
>  .5 deviated pH wort?
>
>I mean... what did those old guys do 200 years ago before scientific
>instruments????

I think it's a pretty important difference, not for taste, but for 
proper conversion of the malt.

But the nice thing is that you don't have to worry about it for the 
most part.  Just select your malt bill to match your water.  That's 
what those old guys did.  The reason that Munich was famous for its 
dark beers, as were Dublin, London and many other areas is that the 
brewers discovered empirically that they needed acidic dark malts to 
balance their alkaline (named after the famous all-star outfielder 
for the Detroit Tigers) water.  Pilzn's very soft water was suited to 
very pale beers brewed with no dark malts.

I hardly ever take a pH reading.  I know that for my water I need to 
use some dark malt, or boil it and decant it (which precipitates out 
the bicarbonate) if I am using all pale malts.  When I do this, the 
mash pH is always right.  Malt just seems to want to settle in to the 
right pH with just a little help.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:15:46 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Coloration

"Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com> wrote

>   Since I had an extra tube of Wyeast Irish Ale yease when I brewed my
>Newcastle Clone last weekend, I split the batch & pitched the Irish Ale in
>one half & a London Ale in the other, just to see what the affect was.  Now
>that it's almost done with the primary fermentation, I noticed that there is
>a big difference in the shading of the beer.  The Irish Ale batch is about
>the color I'd expect for a Brown Ale, but the London Ale batch is so dark,
>it almost looke like the porter I just bottled.  Do yeasts make this much
>difference in color?

My bet is that when the yeast has settled out they'll both be the 
same.  Suspended yeast makes beer look paler than it really is.  I'd 
guess the Irish yeast is less flocculent than the London.  Why don't 
you report back and let us know after it's all done.

Jeff
- -- 
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:08:59 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Caraffa question

I was passing through Saratoga Springs (NY) last week and
decided to stop in to the local home-brew supply (EBI?) just
off of exit 15....and found some Caraffa III.  

Well, I decided to make an ale utilizing a bit...so I made 
a Bavarian Brown Ale as such:

9lb lager malt
2 lb wheat malt
 .5lb crystal malt
 .25lb Caraffa III

single stage infusion (156-158F for 90 min)...
collected about 6.5 gal, full boil, etc..etc..

do those of you who use Caraffa use (generally) more
than .25 lb in this size batch?

It had a mild but definite flavor contribution as I sampled
it on its way into the secondary...but I am wondering what
would the result be of increasing it to .5 or higher
in a 5 gallon batch...?

 ..Darrell














full boil


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:00:29 -0800
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: stove brewing

I echo Steve's feedback to Jim on stove brewing.  GET A PROPANE BURNER.
Your wife will be overjoyed that you won't burn up the kitchen stove
(like I did).  A couple of propane burners (for hot liquor and brew pot)
cost an order of magnitude less than a new stove top, and your beer will
be better.  Of course, with full volume boil, you will also need a wort
chiller, another relatively minor expense, particularly if you build it
yourself.

Several companies make propane burners suitable for brewing.  I bought
mine at Wal-Mart.  Homebrew supply stores carry them also, and there are
mail-order suppliers.

Peter Torgrimson
Worts of Wisdom Homebrewers
Mountain View, CA



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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:18:10 -0800
From: "Bob" <bsmntbrewr at home.com>
Subject: Tragic News

Brewers,

One of our local (SW Virginia) inspirations died last week.
His spirit and attitude for brewing was infectious and
inspiring.
Kenny was in the midst of realizing a brewer's dream with
New River Brewing. His New River Pale Ale won the bronze in
last year's GABF.  Most of his brewing story can be found on
the following website: http://www.newriverbrewing.com
I would encourage all of you to read the company's history
and raise a pint in his honor.

The obituary below was listed in today's 3/31/01 Greensboro
paper:


KENNETH SCOTT LEFKOWITZ
03-31-2001


Kenneth Scott Lefkowitz, 32, died Thursday, March 29, 2001.


A memorial service will be held at 2 p.m. Sunday, April 1,
2001, at
Temple Emanuel, Oakwood Drive, Winston-Salem.


Kenny graduated from Grimsley High School, Greensboro, in
1987, received
his bachelor's degree from UNCG in 1993, and his master's
degree from
Virginia Tech in 1995. He was a graduate of the Siebel
Institutes Micro
Brewery Program, Chicago, Ill., and was the founder and
president of New
River Brewing Company, LLC. He was the recipient of numerous
awards, most
recently the Bronze Medal at the Great American Beer
Festival, Colorado.
In addition, Kenny won the Gold Medal, Best in Show, and
Best New Brewer
in the Bramwell Octoberfest in 2000.


Kenny was an accomplished musician and will be remembered
for being a
kind, compassionate, and caring person who was loved by all.


He is survived by his mother, Judith A. Luria of Greensboro
father,
Victor M. Lefkowitz of Winston-Salem; brother, Todd E.
Lefkowitz of Las
Vegas, Nev.; and his fiancee, Dana Morgenstern of
Greensboro.


In lieu of flowers, the family requests that memorial
contributions be
made to the Appalachian Trail Preservation Society



Bob Bratcher
Roanoke, VA
Star City Brewers Guild
http://hbd.org/starcity






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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:08:50 -0500
From: Jim Adwell <jim at jimala.com>
Subject: re:More on pH

Fred Kingston writes:

>I gotta wonder... on a homebrewing scale... How significant is .5 deviation
>in pH?????? Can anyone in the universe taste a difference in beer made with
> .5 deviated pH wort?

Well, Fred, maybe it's one of those 'cognitive dissonance' things.  After
the new wears off and you've measured the pH of every liquid in sight, and
it hits you that you've paid 300 bucks for something that does nothing but
measure pH,  the pH of wort and beer suddenly becomes a whole lot more
important than it was when you had 300 bucks more in your wallet.

>I mean... what did those old guys do 200 years ago before scientific
>instruments???? 

They probably used their eyes and noses and tastebuds and brains, and
remembered every detail of their brewing, and what the results were, and
adjusted their efforts according to the results.  And hoped for the best.
And sometimes, maybe even more often than not, they made good beer.

Before Pasteur and the scientific explosion in the late 1800's, beer
brewing was pretty much a hit and miss sort of thing.  Science has been
very, very good to the brewing industry, and we homebrewers as well.  If
you learn as much as you can about the scientific aspects of brewing,  the
beer you brew will most likely be better.

But you don't need a  pH meter to make great beer.  Or a cylindroconical
fermenter, either. :)

Cheers, Jim




in Central New York

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://brewery.jimala.com


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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 15:15:22 -0500
From: "Gustave Rappold" <grappold at earthlink.net>
Subject:  Er... wots a 'lambic'!

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:24:45 +0100
From: "Wilf Phoenix" <wilf.phoenix at btinternet.com>
Subject: Er... wots a 'lambic'!

Excuse my  pommie ignorance but after 35 yrs. brewin an'drinkin' I never did
hear of a Lambic.
   

    Lambic is an estery, sour Belgian beer brewed in the area around
Brussels. It has been brewed the same way for hundreds of years, basically
with techniques that run counter to everything we modern brewers strive to
achieve.
    First, raw wheat and barley malt are doughed in at anywhere from a 1:2
to a 2:1 ratio of wheat to malt (lotsa raw wheat!). Then, as the mashing
process continues, unconverted highly proteinaceous wort is drawn off into
the kettle. The mash is run off and the resulting wort boiled with a large
amount of 4 year old, oxidised, cheesy hops (only for their bacteriostatic
properties).It is allowed to cool overnight in shallow coolships located in
the roof of the brewery, which are open to the night air allowing all kinds
of enteric microbes to feast on the wort. After being pumped to casks
already infected with Brett and Pediococcus, the beer ages for at least a
year, more likely 2 or 3. The finished beer is made by blending from
several casks to achieve a consistent product.
    There are several sub-categories of Lambic. Faro is a young product,
generally a few months old and somewhat sweet. Gueze is made by blending
young and old Lambics, resulting in a refermentation in the bottle. These
can range from nearly flat to gushing out of the bottle and can be
intensely flavored. Fruited versions include Kriek (cherry), Frambiose
(strawberry), and Peche (peach). Other fruits are seldom used.
    Lambic is a beer that you either love or hate, as prized flavors are
horse blanket (Brett), cheesy and goatlike (hops), sour (Ped.), musty,
dank, cellarlike...
    Look for products from Cantillon, Boone, Bell-vue, or ask your local
exotic beer retailer. If you try to brew one yourself, remember to call it
Lambic-style or pseudo-Lambic as they are protected by an appellation and
the real ones only come from Payotten-land.
      Gus
http://home.earthlink.net/~grappold 

- --- Gustave Rappold
- --- grappold at earthlink.net
- --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 15:50:59 -0500
From: Don Price <dprice1 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: suggestions/questions for Wyeast 2565 Kolsch ale yeast

My Kolsch ale is fermenting along nicely. Any suggestions for pitching a
new brew onto the cake? I already have several brews kegged or aging
(California lager, honey lager, scotch ale, amber ale, old ale, brown
ale, and a very brown ale). Any suggestions (extract & specialty grain)
for a missing style that is well suited for the Kolsch yeast? I "need"
something bigger like a strong ale, IPA, imperial stout, or Belgian....a
10-12% barleywine may be too big but I'll think about it. Any recipes or
links to find specific ones greatly appreciated.

Aging (ale lagering?) questions: I am almost out of fridge room. After
fermenting for 12-14 days at 60 F, is there a problem with aging the
Kolsch in a corny at room temp (70-75 F) for a couple of weeks before I
put it on tap? My other options include 1) bottle lame amber ale and
make room in fridge for aging/drinking at ~40 F; or, 2) make room in the
fermentation chiller and age it at ~60 F for a week or two while the
other Kolsch yeast based brew ferments....then I'm out of room again.

Thanks in advance for the advice. Brew on!

Don

Suitcase City Brewery



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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:39:48 -0600
From: "Marc Gaspard" <mgaspard1 at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest Request (March 31, 1901)

 > From: "Wilf Phoenix" <wilf.phoenix at btinternet.com>
 > Subject: Er... wots a 'lambic'!
 >
 > Excuse my  pommie ignorance but after 35 yrs. brewin an'drinkin' I never
 did
 > hear of a Lambic.
 > **********************************************************
 >
 Lambic is a style from the Senne valley region of Belgium.  It is a sour
beer  brewed in an ancient style of open fermentation and wild yeasts;
sometimes referred to as 'spontaneous fermentation'.

Typically the brew is made with a thick mash of barley malt, and unmalted
wheat, about 60%-40% mix, although this varies from brewery to brewery.
This mash can last up to 6 hours and is called 'turbid' mashing.  After the
wort is drained off boiling commences for about 2 to 3 hours.  Only old
(3-5 years) hops are used, primarily for their disinfectant quality since
most of the bittering and aroma elements are long since gone.

After boiling the wort is pumped to the 'coolship' or the fermentation tank.
The coolship is the traditional method; a huge copper pool usually located
in the upmost floor of the brewery.  After cooling, louvers in the roof are
opened allowing the natural wild yeasts and bacteria of the area to
innoculate the beer in open fermentation.

 Following fermentation the beer is pumped down to a cellar for aging in
oak casks, with the bung either slightly open or left off completely.  This
allows more fermentation to occur as the microflora in the wood (apiculata,
D. Klokera and Pediococcus Damosus bacteria and Sacchromyces
Brettanomyces and Bruxellensis yeast) continue working their magic on the
wort.  Typically the beer is aged 2-3 years.

If it's a 6 month old lambic it's called "Fox".  If mixed with the aged
lambic it's "Gueuze".  Often the aged lambic is further fermented on fruit;
traditionally cherries from the Sharbeek region of Belgium, and called
"Kriek", or raspberries, and called "Framboise".  There's also "Peche"
(peaches), "Currant" or "Cassis" (raisins or grapes) and there have been
experiments (mostly unsuccessful IMHO) with bananas, pineapple, apple,
strawberries, blueberries and, more succesful, apricots.

The term 'lambic' probably comes from a blend of two sources.  One a town,
Lembeek, near Brussels where quite a bit of Lambic was produced; two,
'alembic' a Latin derivative of 'alembicum', an ancient  a vessel for
distillation.

Lambic is an acquired taste, but once you acquire it you love it!  It's a
sour, dry, almost wine-like refreshing beer that goes really well with food,
and the fruit beers are especially good with desserts, particularly (IMO)
Framboise with dark chocolate!  I don't know if they're imported to Aus-
tralia, but if you go looking for them the most accessible are Lindeman's.
The fruit ones are too sweet, being sweetened for the export market, but
their 'Cuvee-Rene', an aged lambic, is very good.  Also look for Belle
Vue, Timmerman's, Boon (pronounced 'bone'), Cantillon, Hansen's and
Oud Beersel.  The last three are some of the finest, although Hansen's
and Oud Beersel are difficult to find outside of Belgium or Europe.

                                                Marc Gaspard




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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:49:34 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: leapin' luddites, Batman!

"Fred Kingston" <Fred at kingstonco.com> sez:

"I mean... what did those old guys do 200 years ago before scientific
instruments????"

Well, they made the same beer over and over, gradually perfecting their
methods and recipes. Just because they couldn't measure the pH or the
temperature doesn't mean that they couldn't get it right! I am sure that the
monasteries made several serendipitous discoveries such as a certain
proportion of sour mash added to the main mash made better beer, or a
specific volume of a decoction made the best flavor. These "mutations"
became part of the tradition.

Of course, in this modern age where careful iterations with detailed
analysis of the results doesn't seem worth the effort, we must make use of
our tools to optimize our results.

I'm off to rush madly to the next style!

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry




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Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:14:43 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Yates/Pivo Pilsner, Mark 2

Just to let you know (all you caring folk) that the second Yates/Pivo
pilsner has been conceived and is fermenting furiously as I speak. Well
"furiously" is probably the wrong word for lager fermentations, in fact it
would imply that something is not as it should be.

Fermenting in a very healthy fashion is probably a better description. I
abandoned the three hour boil, changed the hops around a bit and split the
ferment between Ayinger and Budvar yeasts. In fact I did so much differently
I am inclined to refuse Doctor Pivo any right to have his name on the title
at all! As far as I can tell, he is back in Sweden in deep hibernation.
Either that or he headed North to visit Graham before departing only to be
decimated by the all consuming SWMBO! Whatever his fate, like Graham he has
vanished.

My thanks to Michael Owings (Ex Capt'n Salty) who sent me the tiny sample of
Budvar all the way from the USA. It not only survived its trip, but has
sprung to life most keenly. I will be interested to compare its influence on
the brew with that of the Ayinger.

To all you Aussies out there (hullo, is there an Aussie in the audience?), I
will save samples of the Budvar to pass around if you want to try it. I know
Dave Lamotte is certainly keen to.

Just as a note, my experience with Ayinger indicates it doesn't like working
much below 10C. I have it working well at 12C and likewise with the Budvar.
Which leaves me to wonder, all this obsession with nil ester production in
lagers must surely be more a commercial concern when trying to produce
characterless beer. In Burradoo, the beer is anything but characterless.

Further reports will follow. In the meantime, Doc Pivo when you thaw out (or
escape the clutches of SWMBO) would you mind dropping us a note to confirm
your existence on the planet? Your contributions in here lately are about as
prolific as those from Aussie posters!

Cheers
Phil





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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:00:17 -0800
From: Bruce Wingate <bwingate at optonline.net>
Subject: Re:  Smooth top stove --  Oxygenator

>>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:45:32 -0600
From: Mike B <mikebrx at swbell.net>
Subject: smooth top stove

I bought a oxygenator set up from 3B's. My last brew was the first time I
used it. I make a starter using 600 ml .030 and a Wyeast XL smak pak. This
time I used 1098. Pitch at 68*. 10 hours later the fermentation lock was
blown out of the hole in the top of my 7 gallon plastic fermentor. I put a
hose in the hole, ran the hose to a gallon jug, you know the drill. The
fermentation was so violent it was pushing foam out of fermentor around the
top where the lid snaps on to the bucket! It went from .052 to finish at
 .008 in 4 days. I am amazed.
Brew on.........Mike

<<

Cool -- I'm getting one of the in the mail very shortly.  Since I've been
doing more all grain batches, I've noticed longer lag times han with partial
boil extracts.  I'm hoping that this gives me the same speedy start, and
lets me do a high gravity brew well.

How easy was it to set up and use?

Bruce.







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Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:09:56 -0400
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: First All-Grain Brew Session Debriefing

Just some thoughts for the collective after my first all-grain brewing
session yesterday:

1) The next purchase will be a grain mill!  Granted, both homebrew stores I
go to will either grind or let me grind the malt there, but it's just not
nearly as convenient.  Especially when the ground about a pound and a half
less than I asked them to and I had to go back.

2) The strike water actually heated a lot faster than I was expecting it
too.  I guess I'm not used to the new 33 quart enamelware pot yet.  Made
starting the mash a bit interesting.  Next time I'll keep a closer eye on
the temp.

3) The Phil's Phalse Bottome worked like a charm!

4) When you recirculate the first runnings until they're clear, how clear
is that?  Transparent?  You can see through a quarter inch of the wort?  An
inch?

5)  The Phil's Sparger arm was nice, but it kept stick and I ended up
having to watch it constantly and keep nudging it every 30 seconds or so.
Obviously, I need to figure out how to keep it spinning freely.  Any
suggestions?

6) The immersion chiller I built worked great!  I highly recommend a
chiller for _every_ brewer, regardless of brewing style.  I built mine out
of about $20 of components from Home Depot.  If you have been thinking
about doing it but are afraid/lack tools, let me know.  I can give you a
parts list and I only need two pairs of pliers to assemble mine...

7) We'll see how it all turns out once it ferments...

   On a not related to the mill, do people actually adjust their mills when
grind things other than barley?  I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to
me to pay an extra twenty bucks (or whatever) for this feature that most
people don't seem to use at all...
     -Travis


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Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 18:04:14 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: malted oats

Darrell...love the experiment on malted oats. If I could get them
in amounts fewer than 55lbs I'd try them too.

But I think the reason the second beer is better is not due to
the wheat, but more to your mashing program.  Oats (and wheat)
can use a temp rest at the lower temps to help break down
beta-glucans and other products that have deleterious effects on
the final product.  Not sure if there's a lipase to break down
the oils, though.  Anyhoo, my mild recipe has a pound of Quaker
Oats in the mash.  I always give a 121F rest for 30 mins before
bringing the mash up to saccharification temps.  Beers are
relatively clear, IMHO.

Cheers!
Marc

- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 18:12:22 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Delirium Nocturnum

Well, I have searched the HBD archives, adn found a scant few postings on 
this, the latest from Feb of 2000.

Hopefully, someone has found or developed a recipe for this since then.

I am looking for a recipe (extract or whole grain) for Huyghe Delirium 
Nocturnum Belgian Ale.

Hep-me, Hep-me, Hep-me!!

Steven


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Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 18:19:49 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: clogged SS airstone

My SS stone bought directly from Liquid Bread (NAYYY) doesn't
seem to be letting any O2 through it.  My last three
fermentations have been pretty sluggish so I'd like to get it
back in working order.  My assumption is that it's clogged with
minerals from my tapwater.  Any suggestions?  I could do a
caustic or acid soak (or both) if it would help.  I have pure
NaOH and 75% phosphoric at my disposal, and know the associated
risks.

Oh, and thanks for the comments about the pump.  I didn't realize
that I could rotate the pump head without ill effects.  I will do
that and still mount it under the stool.

Cheers!

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:56:29 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam at earthlink.net>
Subject: 2001 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition

This is the announcement of the 2001 Homebrew competition.  Check out the
details of the beer, cider and mead competition at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~housemanfam/2001BuzzOff/ to be held June 9th at
the General Lafayette Inn and Brewery in Lafayette Hills, PA, just outside
of Philadelphia.   The BUZZ homebrew club is seeking BJCP judges in addition
entries in all style categories.  The Buzz Off is an MCAB Qualifying Event
for all beer categories.

David Houseman



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