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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Historical Science v. Art ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
  Copper Counterflow Cooler Cleaning (ksc58)
  Growing Barley (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Cleaning SS Stones (jal)
  Trips to Munich, Website Update (Eric Schoville)
  Munich and Day trips - Oz request (Charles.Burry)
  Extract Efficiencies (You Bastards)
  batch sparging ("Steven E Haun")
  Malt Question ("Zara, Tony R.")
  Re: Delayed mash and boil ("Don Watts")
  Hot Oxidation??? (GASNER)
  WTD: Brewery Operations Books (Glenn Raudins)
  Duvel yeast suggestion ("Marc Gaspard")
  MCAB3 update ("Dave Sapsis")


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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 07:43:04 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Historical Science v. Art

Thanks for the comments in response.   I was not suggesting a general
review of the medical modernization of the world but inviting comment on
brewing production based on the earlier posted comments that in the
pre-1950's (arbitarily chosen date) world, beers were generally poorer
in quality due to the lack of scientific techniques in the methods of
production.   From the responses, I will add the following which I hope
those interested will poke with a stick to see if it lives.

In Noonan's "Seven Barrel Brewery Brewer's Handbook" at page 233, he
makes the following comment concerning the Scottish Ale, Traquair:

"The new copper, built in 1736, the open coolships and unlined, open oak
fermenters, nearly two centuries old, yield a nectar of malt from the
cobblestone and dirt-floored brewery.  The brewery ought to be an
inspiration to every homebrewer who questions whether their equipment
can produce world-class brews."

Like Noonan implies, that modernization has improved the maximum quality
of the available beers is not beyond question.   Well made brews (as
well as poor brews) in the past were just as possible as they are now.  
Further, your average personal palate of the past, being closer to purer
ingredients would not have more readily considered crappy beer less
crappy than a spoiled potato less a spoiled one - they just had
techniques for working around the food and drink conditions to which
they were subject.   Drinks were made into punches or bishops or
prepared fresh.  Meat was salted and spiced.

This is different from purity of ingredients.  Lou Heavener of Austin
Texas wrote me directly to consider that the the 16th century German
purity laws were put in as a response to a mischief - unacceptable
adjunct use.    I recall hearing a CBC "Ideas" documentary about
medieval grain production and how some bright light realized that if you
wanted to know what had been grown for bread making around one of those
lovery English thatched roof villages, look at the lowest levels of the
thatch.  Apparently layers are not removed but only piled upon
generation after generation.  When examined, diverse grains - rye,
barley, wheat - appeared to have been grown in the same field.   The
logic was if the weather was not good for one crop, another might do
well.   It is possible that your average local medieval brewer would use
the same grain profile in his brewing as they would not spend time
separating the grains by variety after the harvest.   They may well
have, however, had separate single variety fields.   Purity in our sense
might not have been universally normal - only the Germans had that
law.    On top of this, the factors which sent beers off would not ave
been ignored.  While yeast stains and sanitation may not have been
exactly understood in their function does not mean they were not
appreciated and respected.  Again, a crappy beer would have been
recognized as such.
 
Chris (also from Texas) has pointed out the benefits of transportation
in supplying a variety of general styles and specific brewers that we
would never had had in the past.   This is correct and it has also
caused the movement of ideas, technologies and wealth.  It has come at
some cost, however, the balancing off of which is my question for
pondering today.   There is now an absence of local variety that was
present in the past.   One of my rural neighbours purchased a building
that turned out to be a late 1800's pub which in the basement had
bottles and labels of a variety of fruit wines as well as beer making
paraphenalia.    There are pre-1900's hops still on the property - a few
roots of which I hope to grab off of him.  The economics of brewing in
North America have led to consolidations which has caused the loss of
the former local variety this building exemplifies.   By becoming large
publicly owned entities (some of the shares of which I own), local
variety in production has disappeared.  One has only to think of the
loss of variety in apples which had been available for specific purposes
in the past - cider, storage, baking, fresh eating.

Having said there were larger profits from modern brewing, I wonder if
this - in a way - is actually the case.   Brewing has in the past been a
larger sector of the GDP due to the lack of other technologically based
sectors - before there were plastics there was no plastics industry.  
Further, beer has been replaced by tea, coffee, soft drinks, etc. as
sources of beverage.   Also, it was commonly made in the home as well as
commercially.   Is it possible that, although the total dollar value of
commercial brewing is greater, the relative position of brewing has
declined signifcantly?

Few doubt the general improvements of science in health and wealth,
though politics and economics may still keep these from large areas of
the world.   Has science, however, really specifically improved brewing
or has it, through transportation and technical opportunity, just
created an era of standardized styles causing the rejection of local
distinctions.  This rejection encourages local producers (such as
homebrewers) to consider traditional but "off style" habits as errors.  
As a reult, we have every brewpub making a irish stout a best bitter and
an american pale ale - rather than a local expression in beer such as
the disappearing bone dry canadian export ales, the london porter or
apparently now (as a correspondent from warsaw recently wrote to me)
characteristic eastern european brews.

This is not to say we are necessarily wrong now for doing so (or that
"now is bad") - so much as saying those in the past or currently brewing
elsewhere (oblivious to science and style) were and are as good or
better brewers.   

Please give these musings a good shake and a kick if you like...

Alan in PEI


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:50:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: ksc58 <kcada at cas.org>
Subject: Copper Counterflow Cooler Cleaning


Dear Collective,

   Has a conclusion ever been reached as to the best way to clean
and sterilize the inside surface of a copper counterflow cooler?
Obviously it's wise to run boiling water through it after the wort has gone
through to flush it out, but I've seen directions for soaking it for 15 minutes
with a 1/4 cup/gallon bleach solution, a 5-10 minute iodophor soak, and someone
else has said to never use iodophor on copper.

   So much for the sterilization portion!  How about cleaning the inside?
BLC? TSP? My copper counterflow cooler is about 30 feet long with 3/8" o.d.,
so any physical means, like a brush, is out of the question!

					Thanks to All,

					Ken Cada


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:25:58 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Growing Barley

Jeff Renner asks about my attempts to make beer from dirt.  This has been
the first year in six or seven that I haven't tried to grow barley.   There
are two reasons.  My best atempt was the year before last where I sowed 2
pounds and harvested 1.5 pounds.  Consulting with Mary Ann Gruber at Briess
Malting I was informed that one major problem was that I was trying to grow
barley in the Ohio Valley.  It is too humid here.    The field is former
rail bed and the soil appears to be very black and rich as it has lain
fallow for decades.  My brother thinks that the dark color was soot from
the trains.  He may be right.

The second reason I have quit trying is that I have rented out the acre
field that had the little barley garden in it to Xavier University for
parking.  They put in 95 spaces and they pay me to use them!  There is a
nook in the property line where I am starting my hop plants out again.


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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:44:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: Re: Cleaning SS Stones



If performance of the stone is erratic (glogged for one session, fine the 
next), check the line for water. The pressure of the O2 cannister can push 
water through the stone, albeit very slowly. I usually swing the line in the 
air for a few cycles to clear it.

Jim Larsen
Omaha, NE




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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:34:07 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <Eric.Schoville at oracle.com>
Subject: Trips to Munich, Website Update

When going to Munich, be sure to take the S-Bahn to
Freising, and go to Weihenstephan.  Awesome beer, great
Weisswurst and Brezen!

I have finally updated my website on my 3-Tiered system. 
New pictures of fermentation, etc.  Please check out
http://www.schoville.com/beer

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:15:02 -0500 
From: Charles.Burry at ercgroup.com
Subject: Munich and Day trips - Oz request

As someone who has been privileged to visit Munich several times a year for
the past 4 years (on business!) I am going to join this discussion.  Yes, on
the trip to Andechs though don't bother trying to squeeze in at their little
Munich pub in the shadow of the Frauenkirche, the Andechser vom Dom at
Weinstrasse 7A,  it is always too crowded.  (OK, it is actually a wonderful
little pub with a, when necessary, heated standing room patio area.  But it
is normally very crowded and I want to be able to find a table!)  Let me
also suggest a trip to the Weihenstephan brewery, part of the University of
Technology Munich, located in Freising. They claim it to be the oldest
brewery in the world and have a very nice little pub.  In Munich proper, a
visit to the Unionsbrau brewpub at Einsteinstrasse 42 just off of the Max
Weber Platz, affiliated with Lowenbrau, can be quite enjoyable.  Find your
way to basement pub and enjoy their cloudy Helles straight from wooden
casks.  Being from Kansas City, I cannot recommend their version of
bar-b-que'd ribs. :-)  Last, find the time to take at least a day trip down
to Salzburg, Austria.  2 hours and $20 dollars each way on the train.
Absolutely stunning, charming little city.  Find your way to the Monastery
Augustiner Brau on Augustinerstrasse 2-4; note that at least in the "off
season" the beer halls did not open until 5:00 pm.  Picture beer halls with
stained glass windows and the most perfect of Marzen bier drawn straight
from wooden casks.  Pick your mug up from the rack, give it rinse and
prepare to enjoy a gift straight from God herself.  (After the first sip,
you will wish you had made plans to send the night in Salzburg!)

Now a favor request from our friends in Oz.  Any recommendations for brew
around Sydney?  I plan a return visit there soon after a two years absence.

 Charlie Burry

For those who know better, forgive me for the lack of umlauts in the above.
And, not to pick nits, but the Weisse Brauhaus serves the Schneider
Weissebier and their wonderful Aventinis from bottles not vom fass (on tap).
Don't ask me why, though they do have another local brewery's helles, dunkle
etc. vom fass.  Sit in the front of this beer hall at Im Tal 10 to get the
full effect.  It is normally my first stop Sunday morning when I have just
flown in to town!  Nothing like topping off jetlag with an Aventinis!


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: You Bastards <dude_kennysdead at yahoo.com>
Subject: Extract Efficiencies

Greetings to all.

Last weekend, I finally utilized the capacity I had
planned for when I was putting together my brewing
system.  I made a 10 gallon batch. (!!)

Anyway, when checking my SG after the boil, I was
quite surprised to find that I had a higher SG than I
had expected, based on previous 5 gallon batches. 
According to Promash, on average, I am getting about
68% efficiency for most normal mid-high range 1.050 -
1.075 gravity beers.

Is it typical to increase efficiency when brewing
larger batches?  I'm doing another 10 gallon this
weekend, and wondering if I should expect the same
thing?

Anyway, the grain bill for this 10 gallon malty brown
was:

9# 2-row domestic
9# GW Pale
4# Munich
2# Carastan
 .5# Chocolate
4oz Roasted Barley

I did decrease the water/grain ratio to about 1:1 due
to the limited size of my 10gallon rubbermaid mashtun.
(gotta figure, 7.5 gallons of water, and 25lbs of
grain? in 10 gallons?!)

Thanks for your advice,

brent
electric pig brewery




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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:31:51 -0500
From: "Steven E Haun" <shaun at usd.edu>
Subject: batch sparging

For all you batch spargers:

Do you use one batch sparge or two (and why)?

In my experience, two batch sparges result in a higher efficiency. The big
advantage of a single batch sparge is a shorter brew day. However, I have
not been able to tell a big difference in flavor. Am I missing something
here?

Steve Haun
Sioux Falls, SD



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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:10:54 -0500 
From: "Zara, Tony R." <TZara at ncs.com>
Subject: Malt Question

Hi all,
I recently moved to the Minneapolis area.  When looking out my back windows,
I can see a massive plant across the Minnesota River, blowing steam 24 hours
a day.  I drove by one day and was surprised to see that it was a malting
plant for Rahr.  I don't recall ever seeing Rahr malt in a brewing context.
Does anybody know anything about Rahr malting and if they produce brewing
malt?  Thanks.
Tony


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:06:32 -0400
From: "Don Watts" <dwatts23 at home.com>
Subject: Re: Delayed mash and boil

Thanks for all the input guys, I will be doing what I planned and report
back.

Don Watts
Duck Ditch Brewery
Goose Creek, SC



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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:09:35 EDT
From: GASNER at aol.com
Subject: Hot Oxidation???

I've just been reading that when hot, the wort oxidizes with great speed. 
Hmmmm.

What's the deal on the proper way to bring the original wort (from extract or 
other?) up to the boiling point, and the way to keep it while boiling????

i.e., should it be "well" covered the whole time? Then it will boil over. (:-(

Yes, if it is boiling and the pot is not too full, there will be a layer of 
steam that will keep 'most' of the air away. But not all.

Is oxidation at this stage a real problem or not, and just how should one 
deal with it???

Peace
Earl L. Gasner
gasner at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 19:58:54 -0400
From: Glenn Raudins <Glenn at raudins.com>
Subject: WTD: Brewery Operations Books

If anyone has any of the Brewery Operations books (volumes 1 through 5
only) from Brewers Publications and would like to sell them, please
e-mail me and we can arrange a price or some form of trade.  Thanks.

Glenn 
Reprinted Historical Brewing Books: http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/


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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:02:41 -0500
From: "Marc Gaspard" <mgaspard1 at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Duvel yeast suggestion

> John,
>      I would recommend the Wyeast 3787 Trappist High gravity
> yeast.  I once used this on a blond ale starting about 1.084 and
> it finished out at 1.004- very highly attenuating.  One considera-
> tion is this yeast produces fairly high phenolics, so possibly fer-
> menting as cold as possible (range is 64-78F) would reduce
> those components.
> 
>                                                 Marc Gaspard
> 
> From: "John Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu>
> Subject: Duvel yeast, recipe
> 
> Hello all.
> 
> Which of the Wyeasts is closest to the Duvel strain? I haven't brewed a
> Belgian strong ale in a while...
> 
> Also, if someone has a good recipe, it would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:24:48 -0700
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: MCAB3 update

Planning for MCAB3 in Berkeley is falling nicely into place and we want to
remind folks from outside the area that plan to attend that Friday is the
deadline to make hotel reservations at the reduced corporate rate.  Phone
for the Berkeley Radisson is 510-548-7920 to make reservations.  Or call the
toll free number 800-243-0625.

The technical session is shaping up to be a fine and instructive interaction
emphasizing beer evaluation, tasting mechanics, and the key roles that
amateur brewers play in shaping the modern beer scene.  We might even slip
in a notable surprise guest or two.  To recap the talks scheduled:
Ray Daniels -- keynote on Saturday -- Amateur Brewing and Beyond
George Fix -- Malt Flavors Explored
Louis Bonham and Dave Sapsis -- Flavor Spiking Seminar
Mike Riddle -- Holes in Beer Flavor Space
Scott Bickham -- Seven Steps to becoming a good beer judge
Martin Lodahl -- Flavor Drift: how cultural changes affect styles and
practices
Peter Garofalo -- Good Scoresheets Explained
John Palmer -- From Corncobs to Computers: Modeling Lauter Flow in the
Grainbed
Dave Sapsis -- Testing Flavor Profiles and Judge Effects

Just think -- you guys can be part of an experiment!

We still need qualified judges to help evaluate these "best of best"
entries, and welcome all folks wishing to attend to register and sign up for
judging or helping out.   There will be a Friday judge session beginning
around 5 PM, and some taste seminars flowing the dinner break.  Lots of
homebrews to try, and folks to meet.

And of course, all you qualifying brewers, please register your entries.
Forms and online stuff is at www.bayareamashers.org/mcab3.
Hope to see you there.

- --dave sapsis
for the MCAB3 Organizing Committee




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