---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Counterflow Cleaning -> pouncing! (Ken & Bennett Johnson)
  Saving brewers (amongst others) ("Paul Campbell")
  lager  at  ale temps... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Subject: cleaning keg lube (Mike)
  Water ("A. J.")
  Jethro Gump Report/AHA National Homebrew Competition ("Rob Moline")
  sparge pH (Ray Kruse)
  A few quick questions... ("Greenly, Jeff")
  RE: Drying Carboys ("Jamie Smith")
  Drying Carboys ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RE: Wonderful World of Zymico ("Art Tyszka")
  Re: Sticky Mash and Loose Fingers (and Missing Ozzies) (David Lamotte)
  Over-carbonated beer (Charles.Burry)
  pH and tannins and decoctions (Marc Sedam)
  RE: Changing over... ("Eric Whitney")
  Ninth Annual Dominion Cup (Frank Timmons)
  aeration of wort (Dave Burley)
  Hot Oxidation & Here we go again..../End of Boil Wort pH ("John Zeller")
  Re: Keg lube ("Stephen")
  Re: Mini Kegs ("Stephen")
  Steve Alexander's practical pointer on HSA (Paul Shick)
  Lambic Specialist and De fizzing... ("Gustave Rappold")
  cylinders, cleaning chillers, etc. ("elvira toews")
  blueberry wheat/raspberry wheat (fwd) (Steven)
  MCAB3 Update ("Mike Riddle")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

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JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:04:58 -0700
From: Ken & Bennett Johnson <fearless1 at abac.com>
Subject: Counterflow Cleaning -> pouncing!

Hey again All,

Daniel C Stedman suggests about my cleaning process:

> Hmmm... Sounds like some bad beer just waiting to happen.
> I think we all need to be a little more deligent in our sanitation
> of CF chillers than the advice above.

The process I outlines has yielded over 100 batches of excellent beer, and 
a whole wall full of medals Dan! I have almost 500 chillers sold with no 
problems reported. I suggest the same cleaning proceedure on every 
instruction sheet.

> My standard procedure is to recirculate some PBW through the chiller,
> pump, and connecting lines after every brew. Then when it comes time
> to use it for the next brew, I boil the entire thing for 15 minutes, then
> drop the boiling water through it.

Maybe you should boil it in bleach! What about the radioactive 
sterilization chamber? Are you one of those dudes with the hand 
sterilization gel in their pocket? I'm sorry Dan, I shouldn't make fun, but 
aren't you going a little overboard? Just wash your equipment. Change out 
the plastic routinely. What about that plan?

> I used to just rinse my chiller after every brew, but had a couple
> of infected batches that lead me to change my chiller sanitation
> process. Haven't had a bad batch since I started
> using the above cleaning procedure.

Dan, buddy, I would bet a lot of money that your problem was NOT in the 
chiller.

> I believe that CF chillers are a common source of infection in
> both the homebrew world and in the microbrewery world.

And I respectfully disagree.

> Remember - when you are talking full volume boils,
> the lines, chiller, and fermenter are the only things
> that touch your cooled wort. Keep these three
> things clean and sanitary and you will never have
> problems w/ infections...

I agree Dan; replace your lines regularly, don't be afraid to wear out 
brushes and use a lot of idophor on carboys, follow my suggestions and use 
a counterflow chiller and you will make great beer!

Ken Johnson

Work like you don't need the money
Dance like nobody's watching
Love like you've never been hurt
- ----John E. Gaddy

The FEARLESS Wort chiller is online!
Take a look, http://www.fearless1.com




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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:51:30 +0800
From: "Paul Campbell" <p.r.campbell at tesco.net>
Subject: Saving brewers (amongst others)

Sorry for the non-brewing (directly) content, but this *is* important for
us all, and I'm sure we've lost enough already.......

Having recently learned that a friend of mine is now suffering from
secondary cancer(s), and by chance stumbling over a web-site which appears
to offer even the remotest chance of a future, if not for him but for
others, I'm writing with a request for support.

www.ud.com are a distributed computing site akin to the (original) SETI
concept of using "spare" CPU cycles to perform computationaly intensive work
which is uneconomically vast for the organisations working to complete the
task. This company are working on behalf of Oxford University at analysing
molecules in order to assess their "match" (note the scientific ignorance
here) against known target proteins thought/known (?) to be cancer
responsible.

[Note that the company concerned *does* make money out of this, whether
you feel this is justified is up to you and I do not intend to in any way
make anyone feel obliged to take up this up if it is against their
principles]

I've created an HBD "team" to which anyone may join using the following
link:
http://members.ud.com/services/teams/team.htm?id=FA64472E-9373-401F-800F-510
1476415FA

Since there appears to be an incentive scheme based around PayPal (amongst
other things) perhaps we could/should include the option of donating any
"prizes" won to the HBD fund? Regardless, I think it's an excellent way of
helping ourselves as well as others.

Enough of my blurb, though. From the website:

"One in four of us will at some time suffer from cancer. The high mortality
rate, the suffering experienced by patients from the side effects of
existing treatments, and the high costs of treatment all contribute to
making cancer a priority for drug research.

A New Way to Help

A landmark research project has begun that allows people to make a real
difference in the fight against cancer. This is no regular donation request:
a participant is never asked to open a checkbook or volunteer time.

The Intel-United Devices Cancer Research Project is asking you to volunteer
your PC to help process molecular research being conducted by the Department
of Chemistry at the University of Oxford in England and the National
Foundation for Cancer Research. To participate, you simply download a very
small, no cost, non-invasive software program that works like a screensaver:
it runs when your computer isn't being used, and processes research until
you need your machine. Your computer never leaves your desk, and the project
never interrupts your usual PC use.

It's Easy and Safe

There is no cost to participate and no impact on your computer use. The
project software cannot detect or transfer anything on your machine but
project-specific information. It just allows your computer to screen
molecules that may be developed into drugs to fight cancer. Each individual
computer analyzes a few molecules and then sends the results back over the
Internet for further research. The goal is to enlist enough volunteers to
contribute 24 million hours of computational time. This project is
anticipated to be the largest computational chemistry project ever
undertaken and represents a genuine hope to find a better way to fight
cancer.

The computational power to perform research of this scale is only available
through the generosity of individuals like you."


Paul,
Glen Esk,
Scotland
UK




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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:16:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: lager  at  ale temps...


G'day there,

Ian Forbes wrote;

Not sure you want to ferment a lager yeast at ale temps (but if you
let us know how it turns out),

If you ferment a lager  at  ale temps (lower ranges thereof) its is the 
same as per producing Steam Beer.


Very frightened re the Phil Hopoate attempts to bring back the aussies
to the hbd. If posting on the HBD excludes me from 'the finger' then
I promise to do so daily...

scotty

down south and still kicking.




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Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:54:02 -0800
From: Mike <mikegeorge at mac.com>
Subject: Subject: cleaning keg lube

I would try lemon juice. It works great on most grease and is a natural
product. 

> Last month there was a bit of talk about keg lube - what's the best
> way to clean that stuff off my stuff? I find the stuff is just about
> impossible to easily remove.
> 
> - Steve (mostly lurking...) 


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:48:27 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Water

For Jay: at the levels in your water it is unlikely that much chalk, if
any will precipitate.  Assuming the 36 ppm Ca means as the element thats
1.8 mEq/L while the alkalinity is at just about the same value. It takes
a bit of work to decarbonate below the 1 mEq/L level so assuming that
you were able to acheive that you would still have 0.8 mEq/L calcium
left. Now alcium supplementation is somewhat like chicken soup. In most
cases in can't hurt so if you wanted to add a little of the chloride or
sulfate you might like the results better than if you don't.

Yes, there are acids in malts that neutralize the alkalinity. Pale malts
don't have these but they do contain lots of phytin (an organic
phosphate) and phytase (the enzyme which releases the phosphate).
Calcium reacts with this phosphate to produce acid. It is this reaction
which is the basis of the residual alkalinity calculation which you will
see referred to here mostly by me and Hubert but by others occasionally
as well. The higher kilned malts contain organic acids and I have always
felt that this is the best way to control moderate alkalinity levels
such as yours.

As an aside, my favorite method for tuning pid controllers is as
follows;
1. Dial in desired set point.
2. Raise PV to near desired set point
3. Press autotune!

A.J.



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:04:10 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Jethro Gump Report/AHA National Homebrew Competition

		Jethro Gump Report
AHA National Homebrew Competition

Mr. Johnson,
     I am MOST upset that you weren't aware of the toll-free number for the
Association of Brewers/American Homebrewers Association. (Oh, I guess you
WERE aware of it....you merely tried to embarrass the AHA....and Gary
Glass.)

     Sorry, let's start again....
     I am amazed that you thought it unusual that any organization, let
alone a not for profit, would try to utilize that number for purposes that
generate revenue, in a manner that maximizes benefit to the organization,
and the community it represents.
     I am sorry that you have the impression that the AHA doesn't care about
homebrewers...I assure you that this is not the case.
     Not only does the AHA care about homebrewers...it cares about them no
matter the origination of the concept....
     Hence the recent AHA donation of 500 dollars, voted upon by the Board
of Advisors, and acted upon by the AOB/AHA, for the MCAB3, to add to funding
to enhance bus travel by all participants of that event....in order to allow
maximum enjoyment, whilst reducing risk...not only to that organization (NOT
an AOB creation), but also to any participants...
     I can also state that individual members of that AHA board have donated
not only their time, but money to that event...as they have to other events,
and more than bloody likely...they shall to future events!

     Sir, for you to issue such a chintzy chastisement of "Mr. Glass" and
your "friends in Boulder"....is a serious disservice....especially when you
follow ALL this up with....

     >The FEARLESS Wort chiller is online!
     >Take a look, http://www.fearless1.com

     A shameless commercial advertisement. That I would have NO PROBLEM
with...EXCEPT...GEE...

     You have NO 800-888 number attached to! OK, I can see, by following
your links, that some retailers, and distributors have such numbers
attached....but you don't, do you?
     Maybe I should look harder, but this is the best I see...

>	. Click this to see a picture of me and my competition results.  If you
have any questions >at all, don't hesitate to
>.E-mail me with them. The address is fearless1 at abac.com

     Like I say...I have no prob with any shameless commercial advocacy,
indeed I wished I were doing the same...
     BUT, I do, SIR, have problems wth your approach. Your attack of Gary
Glass, as a representative of the AHA/AOB is not only unfounded, it is
curiously misguided. His message was one of notification.

     Gary Glass is the last bloody man on the face of the planet you should
want to name in ANY, even shallow attack, on the AHA. I guess that you
really don't have a bloody clue, mate....
     ANYBODY that work's for the AHA....DOESN"T do it for the money!
     Gary works his butt off....for the love of the sport.   How dare you
chastise him.

     You have a problem? Piss on me. As the first elected member of the
Board, I expect the hits. Gary works hard...for little appreciation, as you
so crassly demonstrate.

     If you want to approach any member of the AOB/AHA with ANY of your
problems....approach me....and I will give you ALL of MY numbers....
     Call me ANYTIME.
     Just don't be cruel to a heart that's true, as Gary's is.

Thoroughly annoyed by this one....
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
AHA Board of Advisors
1332 Arizona Avenue,
Ames, Iowa, 50014
515-268-1836 home
515-450-0243 cell
RobMoline at aob.org
jethrogump at home.com
brewer at isunet.net
jethro at isunet.net




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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:09:50 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: sparge pH

The Baron of Burradoo wrote...

I have mentioned this matter before but I am not sure that anyone took
me
seriously (how rude of them!). It is my opinion that the magical pH of
around 6.0 when sparging simply relates to a point where little of the
sugars are left in your mash to be worth extracting. Possibly your
sparging
water is around pH 7.0 and your mash pH might be 5.4.
The longer you sparge, the pH of the run off must increase towards that
of
the sparge water. At pH 6.0 it is a good idea to cease all sparging
(just
have a taste of what is coming out) because all meaningful extraction
has

1.  Has what????

2.  If you are concerned about the pH of the sparge water (and you
should be), why not some lactic or phosphoric acid to the sparge water
tank?  That way, you guarantee that your pH won't rise, and you can
continue your sparging until your SG indicates that all your sugars have
been sparged out.  The amount you add would depend on your local water,
but if you have a pH meter or pH test strips, it should not be difficult
to dope the water and test it until you've got the pH down around 5.2 or
so.

3.  I'm quite relieved, in hindsight, that Phil didn't invite me to play
any rugby while I was there.  I understand that he's more a rugby fan
than a footie fan.  Might explain some of his exclamations.

Calgon

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:42:34 -0400
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: A few quick questions...


1. With summer fast approaching, I purchased a used fridge to use as a
fermentation locker. I have been looking for external temperature
controllers and I have found a few, but I am not sure which one to buy. On
my shoestring budget, I need to buy the right part(s) the first time. I am
not above making my own, by the way, if someone has a schematic and parts
list. 

2. Along the same lines, does anyone know where I might get universal gasket
material for the fridge door? The old gasket is not sealing properly.

3. Now this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone on the list here know of a
similar list for home winemaking? I have searched the web quite a bit and
haven't found anything except professional lists that are way too heavy for
me. 

Thanks in advance!

Jeff
greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu   


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:56:28 -0300
From: "Jamie Smith" <jxsmith at vac-acc.gc.ca>
Subject: RE: Drying Carboys

I have a shelf in my "brewery" / laundry room with holes in it for 
my 3 carboys to be stored inverted.  Good wash after each use, 
and then another before each use.  Works very well so far!

Jamie on PEI



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:57:31 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Drying Carboys


>Does anyone have a faster way to dry carboys out?
>Thanks,
>Nils Hedglin


one of the recurrent themes concerning carboys is the danger of breakage. full
or empty, all it takes is an inadvertant rap and you've lost a carboy; but you
can minimize or completely avoid the problem by using a plastic milk crate as
a carboy carrier. this protects the carboys from danger from each other or the
floor. the crate is light-wieght, strong, and has built in handles for safe &
easy carrying. thermal shock from hot or boiling wort is a related concern,
and something to avoid - it can cause stress cracks that can show up
immediately or develop later.

this same plastic milk crate can be used to dry your carboys safely. simply
invert after cleaning. keep in mind that this is only for cleaning, not after
sanitizing the carboy before use as the lip of the carboy will be touching the
bottom of the plastic carrier. I have the stand from a Fermentap - a
questionable product for yeast management but the stand is a great carboy
drier. for those of you not familiar with it, picture a truncated cone of two
rings, one larger than the other. the larger ring serves as the base while the
smaller ring is held above it by several metal rods. you simply set the
inverted carboy down in the smaller ring. the carboy is held safely by the
shoulder while the opening is suspended in the air.

now, I know most of you don't have a Fermentap lying about (I won mine in a
homebrew club raffle), but I had an idea for a cheap, easily built substitute.
take a piece of plywood and cut a circle in it of the appropriate size - an
inch or so smaller than shoulder of the carboy (I'm too lazy to go out to the
brewery right now to measure the right  size). place a couple of blocks of
wood on the bottom of the plastic milk crate to hold the plywood off the
bottom so the carboy lip is suspended and you're set. cheap or free (you've
probably already got some wood scraps lying around), easy to build (no welding
skills or equip required) - maybe I should start producing & selling them....
not.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:42:04 -0400
From: "Art Tyszka" <atyszka at cbf.com>
Subject: RE: Wonderful World of Zymico

I can't comment on Zymico's weldless kits themselves, but I did buy one of
their Bazooka Screens and am very happy with it.  I tried all manner of
strainers in my brew kettle and all would clog or run very slowly once the
hops started to collect.  With the Bazooka Screen my drain runs full tilt
right to the bottom of the kettle.  The screen is well built and does what
it should, so I'd expect the rest of their products to be the same.  [Insert
Usual Disclaimer Here]

- -----
Art Tyszka
Loyal Shepherd Brewing Co.
www.loyalshepherd.com



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:20:21 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sticky Mash and Loose Fingers (and Missing Ozzies)

Phil Yates (as is his usual style) had some interesting comments on pH and
mashing.  I too believe that a pH meter is an essential tool in the brewers
toolbox and will last a lifetime of happy brewing.

Because it is a tool that you only need to use a few times to get a
'handle' on your brewing process, before you can retire it beside your
first brewing funnel and hop strainer.  So if properly used, it will never
wear out !

Once you have a feeling for how YOUR mash reacts to YOUR water and YOUR
sparging technique, it rarely varies.

But, I am sorry Phil, but I must protest when my rectum is paraded in
public.  John's fingers have not dislodged us from the HBD, for as Pat can
certify, we are all still here.

It is just that we are all too shagged out from arguing with Graham and
delving into the mysteries of Metho, to have any energy left for posting
'content' to the HBD.  We still love the HBD dearly, as it forms a cricial
part of our brewing psychie, but must limit ourselves to posting on a 'need
to know basis'.

Rumour has it that we have taken our bat and ball and gone home - not at
all, we still play this game, but we have started a league of our own. 
Anyone is welcome to join (look, we even let Graham join up), and you are
most welcome to pop by at http://chat.craftbrewer.org to see what we are up
to. I have recently changed the settings so anyone can point their browser
at the posted messages without having to sign up with Yahoo first.  

And yes there is a searchable archive, but don't expect to find any
discussions on Hopoate as strangly enough, we only seem to talk beer.  Oh,
and we also have a web site at http://oz.craftbrewer.org with various
articles relating to beer, brewing and blacksnakes.

Oh, speaking of the web site, I must appologise for the delay (I now know
how Karl and Pat spend their waking hours), but someone was asking about
the oz beer scene in preparation for a visit.  

The Real Beer page has a colonial outpost@  http://www.realbeer.co.nz
which lists most of the better pubs & breweries in Sydney. Also if you look
at our News & Events page (http://oz.craftbrewer.org/News.html) it will
often have snippets of upcoming happenings in the oz beer world.  Either
way, drop us a line to the address at the bottom of the web site and I am
sure that Scotty, Phil or some of the other mates would love to meet you
for a drink and a natter.

We would like to chat with you guys more, heck, we could even sign up the
HBD to receive our daily digest, but with each OZ-CBD digest length being
20k or 30k, we would quickly swamp you guys - looks like you will have to
call on us.

What, how many bouncing emails have we got ???? .......... sorry, gotta go.

David


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:06:46 -0500
From: Charles.Burry at ercgroup.com
Subject: Over-carbonated beer

When ever this happens to me, I have always just used the shake and bleed it
off method.  Shaking a beer, as we all have experienced at least once, will
bring the gas out of solution.  Obviously the warmer the beer the less gas
it will hold but I would never suggest warming up and then cooling back down
an already cold beer!  My good friend Marc Gaspard and I had this very
problem the past weekend with one of his excellent porters and about an hour
in to the wedding reception we had the brew under control.

 Charlie Burry


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:14:44 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: pH and tannins and decoctions

Most of what Pat said regarding the different mechanisms in play
are true.  I disagree, however, with two things:

1) Pat sez: "In a typical steep, the bag of grains is dangled in
a pot o' water with a pH of, barring contaminants and doping, 7.0
 - there usually just isn't enough grain to significantly reduce
the pH of the water in a typical specialty grain steep."

I sez:  Nope.  Put 1/4 lb of roasted barley, black, or chocolate
malt in water and you'll most certainly get a pH drop. Crystals
and caramels would drop less so, but drop nonetheless.  Grains
just want to make wort drop in the right pH range--unless you
have mega-carbonate water.

2)  The reason that decocted beers don't have any tannic
astringency is due to the long lagering time.  The tannins ARE
extracted, it's that they complex with proteins and other goodies
in the fermented beer and fall out of solution over the course of
a 6+ week lagering period near freezing.  It's one of the reasons
(IMHO) that my decocted beers are more "rounded" after the long
lager.

Cheers!

- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:30:54 -0600
From: "Eric Whitney" <ewhitney at sfntc.com>
Subject: RE: Changing over...

Pat posted a plea for pledges...

> Our system monitor failed last night, taking the HBD server
> (oddly) down with it! We are now running using the monitor from
> my children's computer - much to their disappointment and
> against their protests - until we can secure a replacement.

Shame on you!  And tell the kids to hang on...

> Finally, if anyone has decent discounts for either a DAT or
> a monitor, we'd certainly appreciate your assistance!

Alas, I have a perfectly good Shamrock monitor from a former PC sitting
patiently collecting nasty looks and comments from the wife waiting for an
opportunity to be useful once again (the monitor...not the wife) before
being put out to pasture for target practice.  Sorry, I write run-ons when
in a giving mood.  If you're still in need, I'll pack it up and ship it out
later this week (sorry, no overnight shipping available from my pocketbook).
Consider it my new member, lurker dues.  I'll await your reply before acting
because I'm a masochist and haven't taken enough verbal abuse from the wife
for keeping computer equipment sitting around longer than the government.

Cheers,

Eric Whitney
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA (No passport required.)
eric at whitney-weber.com          www.whitney-weber.com

"Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to brew and die." - Stolen and
Bastardized



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank Timmons <francis0001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ninth Annual Dominion Cup 

The James River Homebrewers are pleased to announce
the 9th Annual Dominion Cup Homebrew Competition to be
held on May 5, 2001, at the Legend Brewery in
Richmond, VA. Entries are being accepted now through
May 2, 2001.
 
To receive an entry packet or to request more
information, E-mail me at francis0001 at yahoo.com, or
visit our web site,
www.weekendbrewer.com/jamesriverbrewers.html for entry
forms or more information. All judging will be done by
BJCP judges or brewing professionals, to the BJCP
style descriptions. Our goal is to provide each entry
with constructive feedback from our pool of judges.

The competition is open to all styles of ale and beer,
except mead, cider, and sake. The entry fee is $6 per
entry. Category winners will receive medals and prizes
and the best of show winner will receive an engraved
cup.

I still have openings for a couple more BJCP program
judges.  If you are interested, email me with a phone
number and snail mail address so that I can coerce you
into judging.


Frank Timmons
James River Homebrewers
Richmond, VA





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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:57:35 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: aeration of wort

Brewsters:

Well, it does pain my heart * to see that we still haven't convinced the
whole brewing world to try a simple experiment in which the brew kettle is
partially covered during the boil and hot wort transfer through air is a
no, no for us little guys making only a few gallons of beer.

Once again ( as I commented in the past)  Charlie himself straining hot
wort through the air is a fine example of what not to do
 ( along with some of his other techniques which shall go unmentioned).   I
used to strain hot wort through the air to remove hops in the early days of
my brewing and was always disappointed with my beer quality until I stopped
doing that. It was a clear effect on the beer quality and easily
discernable by all tasters. Try the experiment.  Compare the taste and
colors. Jeff (?) has suggested that the beer type, esp those with roasted
malts, are more susceptible and may be a source of controversy. Check it
out.

If you continue to mix copious quantities of air into your hot wort ( while
maybe eliminating only one source)  without an experiment and say things
like "HSA doesn't bother me." How valid is that viewpoint?

* thanks for your concern. I'm glad we can get some derision from it. It's
getting better as in therapy I can now walk 4.2 mph for 12 minutes plus a
bunch of other stuff.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:10:39 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hot Oxidation & Here we go again..../End of Boil Wort pH

Stephen Alexander,

Thanks for your input.  I do have a couple of additional comments on your 
suggested methods of reducing the effects of HSA.

You posted:

"One could also mash and boil with a lid on, blow CO2 or nitrogen thru the 
grist, mash-in with de-oxygenated water, float an O2 barrier on the 
mash/boiler -    I can think of a lot of steps to take to decrease HSA."

Everything I have read says to boil with the lid off to allow DMS compounds 
to dissipate.  Maybe partially covering the kettle would help some.  I mash 
with the lid on my tun, but often it is necessary to stir the mash so this 
would be another partial solution.  Blowing CO at  or nitrogen through the 
grist would likely interfere with temperature control not to mention the 
hassle factor.  I suppose de-oxygenating the strike water and also the 
sparge water by boiling or using a vaccuum pump could be an effective 
procedure, but I don't
know any homebrewer who does this as a precaution.  Floating an O2 barrier 
on the mash is a good idea, but only during the actual mash.
It would need to be removed during sparging, or at least for fly sparging.  
So, tell me, do you actually implement all of these procedures?  Does anyone 
else?  HSA problems are still not very high on my worry list.  Maybe if I 
was shipping beer to distant competitions where it could be subjected to 
rough handling and high temperatures I would be more concerned.  On the 
local front, my recent CAP scored a 43.5 with no comments about any HSA 
problems.  I see no need to alter my brewing methods with results like that!



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:16:29 -0400
From: "Stephen" <stephennyc at about.com>
Subject: Re: Keg lube

Folks - 

I'm working with the Keg Lube from Williams. They recommended 
removing it with Fantastic (tm), which I really haven't had much 
success with, so I'm still open to cleaning suggestions...

 - Steve

Douglas Moyer wrote:

I had that same question. After a pleasant series of exchanges with 
Stephan
at Paddock Homebrew Supplies, I determined that what I called "keg 
lube" was
not the same as what is sold as "Keg Lube". The former is a white 
technical
grease, petroleum based, and the later is silicone based. The former 
is food
grade and lists o-rings as its recommended use, but is nearly 
impossible to
clean off. I tried everything I could think of, including boiling and
various chemicals. The official "Keg Lube" supposedly is very easy to 
clean.
It is sold by Williams and the tub should last forever. I haven't got 
around
to buying any, but I intend to do so soon. (Along with some new keg
o-rings.)






 - Steve



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:29:53 -0400
From: "Stephen" <stephennyc at about.com>
Subject: Re: Mini Kegs

Tom -

Because my apartment just doesn't have room for another fridge and a 
real kegging system, I have been experimenting with mini kegs. The 
cost analyses didn't affect my decision, just my desire to find an 
alternative to bottling.  Comments after 10 gallons 'kegged':
1) kegging process is pretty easy.
2) I had some leakage around the tap/keg joint when the tap was 
inserted wet.
3) Getting the carbonation levels right is tough - The first 5 
gallons was primed with 4 oz corn sugar, the second with 5 oz. SWMBO 
was unhappy both times. I'll try 6 oz next month.
4) Drying the kegs out is no fun - I ended up using rolled up 
papertowels and shaking. the bung lip keeps a good deal of water in 
the keg that will not drain out.
5) It's really easy to drink 5 gallons of beer when it is on tap in 
the fridge.

Initial thoughts - if I had the space, I would definitely go with 
a 'real' kegging system. The long term costs are less as well. But, 
with my space constraints, the mini-kegs let me keep bitters and pale 
ales on tap with minimal bottling effort, so I'm now making more 
beer. That to me is well worth the $80 set up cost and additional CO2 
cartridges. Now I just have to see how long the little kegs last...

From: Tom Byrnes
Sent: Mon 4/9/01 10:41 PM
Subject: Mini kegs

I am considering going to a mini keg system with the Philtap. 
Experienced
users
please provide your feedback (positive & negative). Thanks Tom






 - Steve



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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:36:26 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Steve Alexander's practical pointer on HSA


Hi all,

	I just wanted to reinforce a point that Steve Alexander
made very nicely in his posting on hot-side aeration in the
4/10/01 HBD:  "...  the major impact occurs early in the mash.  
Yes you can harm a beer by blowing air through it later, but all 
things being equal - the early mash period is the most critical."

	All of my (sporadic) reading on this subject agrees with this
point.  More importantly, though, it's something really worth knowing
from a practical point of view.  In my (semi-RIMS) system, for example,
this helped me decide to dough in at a beta-amylase of higher 
saccharification temperature and let everything rest for at least half
an hour before beginning any recirculation, particularly for dark, malty
beers.  

	Thanks Steve.  It's nice to see the theory lead directly to
simple improvements in the brewing process.

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:28:38 -0400
From: "Gustave Rappold" <grappold at earthlink.net>
Subject: Lambic Specialist and De fizzing...


     There's a gent named Jim Liddil who has written a fine piece on
p-lambic homebrewing, you can get it at
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html
It's 34 pages long, and printing it out and binding it in a report cover is
one of the few smart things I've ever done...I think Mr. Liddil has/had
something to do with running the lambic digest, but I don't know if it is
still in operation. I know he occasionally posts here, but I couldn't tell
you if he reads us regularly. I can tell you his dissertation gave me the
courage to 'go for it', wooden cask and all!! 
     As far as degassing beer, Songbird needs to give it some time for the
excess CO2 to come out of solution. It's a trial and error thing if you
don't have a gauge.
      Gus
- --- Gustave Rappold
- --- grappold at earthlink.net
- --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.




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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:19:20 -0500
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com>
Subject: cylinders, cleaning chillers, etc.

Jason's cylinder failed hydro - what to do?  If they didn't drill a hole in
it, you need to find out how it failed.  If it's the valve, you could have
that replaced.  My 5# tank is a converted fire extinguisher, so it must be
possible.  Of course, it is also possible to screw up the test so that it
looks like a failure.  I'd go somewhere else and see what they think.

Re. rinsing vs. cleaning CF chillers.   I've been sanitizing beer bottles in
the dishwasher for 5 years, so they've only been rinsed.  After a year of
very little brewing I got them out, and 30% have an obvious film on the
inside - beer stone.  My immersion chiller is starting to look cruddy, too,
but at least that won't infect my beer.

A compromise is in order - soak the inside of your CF chiller in vinegar,
phosphoric acid or StarSan every 5 - 10 batches.  This will keep things from
getting out of hand.

As for "I've never had any problems", it is said that the average beginner
doesn't get infections for the first two years despite sloppiness, and then
<wham!> a series of bad batches from all the nasties that got established in
that period.

Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca




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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net>
Subject: blueberry wheat/raspberry wheat (fwd)

after a few of my latest brews i felt compelled to send off a report to
the list. Hopefully to generate some constructive criticism. 

I basically started with this

7lb's Wheat DME
2oz Haullertau(sp?)
Wyeast Weistephan(sp) yeast (number id escapes me)

Why all wheat? Donno, didnt see any recipies for all wheat floating around
so what the heck, my friends drink PBR so free homebrew.. well you know
the rest.

I split the batch after the primary for a week on fresh+frozen
(about 1 lb fresh 3lb frozen) blueberrys and raspberrys respectively.
I went with frozen due to the extremely high cost of the fruit.

The results after almost two weeks in the bottle (not even)?

Well its a little soon but heck I can NEVER wait to sample.

Raspberry Wheat - its turned into a lampic, very very raspberry scented,
great tart raspberry flavor. Every unbeer like taste though. Overall i
think i would have mashed the fruit in a container first and added to
secondary, then racked the beer into a 3rd container to clear/filter.

Blueberry Wheat - hrm, the blueberrys were not up to par sadly. The flavor
was much less pronounced than i would have hoped. More beer like flavor
with the barest hint of aroma, a sweat overtone on top of the cloudy,
murky redish dishwater like brew. 

Overall. Not bad, not great. Time will hopefully improve matters
somewhat. It was amazing how good my Irish Red (is there such a
beast?)  got as the weeks passed and my hoegarden clone has gotten
incredable. 



 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net

    /"\
    \ /  ASCII Ribbon Campaign - Say NO to HTML in email and news
     X
    / \





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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:31:45 -0700
From: "Mike Riddle" <riddle at sonic.net>
Subject: MCAB3 Update

We have extended the registration deadline for MCAB3 to April 18 to allow
the several folks who are thinking about coming to make up their minds and
join in the fun!  Go to the website at
http://www.bayareamashers.org/mcab3/conference_registration.htm to get the
details.

The hotel will also extend the deadline for getting the reduced rate -- but
sign up quickly, because the hotel will no longer hold the block of rooms
open for us, so they will eventually sell out.  Phone for the Berkeley
Radisson is 510-548-7920 to make reservations.  Or call the
toll free number 800-243-0625.

In addition to the speakers shown below, Fritz Maytag of Anchor Brewing has
now agreed to come and talk.  Please don't miss this great opportunity to
network with some of the legends of the craft brewing community!

Latest lineup:

Louis Bonham and Dave Sapsis -- Flavor Spiking Seminar -- Friday
Mike Riddle -- Holes in Beer Flavor Space --- potential new styles for
exploration
Scott Bickham -- Seven Steps to becoming a good beer judge
Martin Lodahl -- Flavor Drift: how cultural changes affect styles and
practices
Peter Garofalo -- How to Build  Better Scoresheet
John Palmer -- From Corncobs to Computers: Modeling Lauter Flow in the
Grainbed
George Fix -- Malt Flavors Explored
Dave Sapsis -- Testing Flavor Profiles and Judge Effects
Ray Daniels -- keynote on Saturday -- Amateur Brewing and Beyond

 --Mike Riddle
for the MCAB3 Organizing Committee






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