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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Fermentation stalled (Steven)
  Mini Kegs (Dan Listermann)
  vienna (Darrell.Leavitt)
  2 QUESTIONS ("Hill, Steve")
  Mini Kegs ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Trip to DC (Steve Funk)
  poor attenuation all the time ("John Zeller")
  Wort bombs / HSA / Minikegs and philtaps (David Harsh)
  Re: CO2 cylinders ("McGregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL")
  AHA & Toll Free Numbers ("Gary Glass")
  Soapy beer - revisited (Beaverplt)
  An Answer For Ray And A Question For Steve ("Helen Pay")
  RE: Starter Grenades ("Steven Parfitt")
  Champagne or Beer ("Todd Hannemann")
  Re: lube ("Dave Sapsis")
  A Sad Day. ("Matthew Saunders")


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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:51:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: Fermentation stalled


I tend to get quick finishing fermentation at my brewing temps, ~70-72
, 3-4 days max.

A fellow brewer thought he had a stuck fermentation till he noticed his
primary lid was cracked, thus bypassing the bubbler. Worth checking for
leaks.



 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net

    /"\
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:01:30 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mini Kegs

< "Tom Williams" <williams2353 at hotmail.com>Comments about  Mini Kegs:

<Steve wrote about his mini keg experiences:

" 2) I had some leakage around the tap/keg joint when the tap was
inserted wet."

I have this type of leakage nearly every time, and I find that it limits
the 
life of the CO2 cartridges.  If there were some way to stop this leakage, 
the kegs could be kept cold and carbonated in the fridge for several days. 

Anybody have a solution?>

It is probably not leaking at the tap / keg joint and, if it is, for the
German taps. a little keg lub on the dip tube threads should seal it.  The
German taps tend to leak at the cartridge / regulator junction.  The
cartridge must seal against a hard plastic surface.  Again a little keg lub
on the tip of the cartridge along with a bit on the threaed portion of the
cartridge holder to ease screwing should cure this problem.

Another problem can be that the CO2 is simply being disolved into the beer.
 Turn the regulator off when not dispensing.  I have dispensed beer from
these kegs over the course of months without problems.

<" 3) Getting the carbonation levels right is tough - The first 5
gallons was primed with 4 oz corn sugar, the second with 5 oz. SWMBO
was unhappy both times. I'll try 6 oz next month. "

How do these priming rates compare to the rates you use when bottling?  I 
have tried putting corn sugar directly in each keg, but I have never been 
satisfied with my carbonation results. (I read somewhere that they should
be 
primed less than bottles).>

I recommend  priming with 1.5 tablespoons of corn sugar directly into the
keg.  This can be easily controlled plus kegging can be accomplished
directly from the fermenter without the bother of a bottling bucket.

<" 4) Drying the kegs out is no fun - I ended up using rolled up
papertowels and shaking. the bung lip keeps a good deal of water in
the keg that will not drain out. "

I have exactly the same experience.  I have given up trying to dry them.  I

just make sure they are sanitized and rinsed well, and I cover the openings

when stored empty.  I don't think a little rinse water left in the bottom 
matters.>

I used to get all carried away drying the kegs.  I have found that a
reasonable shaking is usually fine.  The real important part is to be sure
that there is no sediment left in the keg.  I don't seal the opening for
storage.  If you feel a need to do this, use paper towels.  It is important
that the kegs eventually dry.  Never use a keg that smells funny.  Clean it
first.

If you still feel a need to get all the water out of the kegs, the rolled
up paper towel works great or you can just put a bit of towel inside the
lip of the keg and leave it inverted for a hour or so to wick the water
out.

<I have some kegs which were bought from a homebrew store specifically for 
this purpose, and some which I bought with beer in them (Grolsh, 
Warsteiner).  Both perform equally well.>

Mini kegs from commercial breweries work great, but the bungs are much more
difficult to remove compared to those sold for the homebrew market.  You
will probably destroy the rubber part of these bungs when attempting to
remove them and care must be taken to avoid scratching the area around the
lip of the hole.  Scratches, while not the end of the world, will rust in
time.


<  Also, I have a different brand tap 
 - mine is a Fass Frisch.  How well does the Philtap regulate the CO2?>

The Philtap does not have a regulator.  It uses a CO2 dispenser.  When the
beer flow starts to slow, a quick burst of the trigger  restores the flow. 
The German taps are generally used  as "on / off " valves too since leaving
the regulators on all the time can cause the CO2 to simply disolve into the
beer if set too high and the level of the setting is difficult to
determine.  It is better to just use it to restore pressure as needed
manually.  

Dan Listermann   

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com!  Visit the
anti-telemarketing forum.  It is my new hobby!


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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:03:48 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: vienna


Pete asks:

Comment on your hopping schedule to us in terms of your brew being too
sweet/malty please.  Also, how did the slurry do in its previous pitch that
you harvested from?  When you took your gravity going to secondary, was the
beer warmed to about room temp or did you correct for temp with your
hydrometer.  Its possible that a 50F hydrometer reading would be reading
higher by maybe 0.002-0.004, making your brew more what you would think at
1.016ish for room temp.


I respond:

  I do not have my records with me here ... but as I recall I used 1 oz of
Hallertau (about 6 aa) as bittering, and the same with
30 min left....it was a 90 minute boil.

The previous batch that the slurry came from (German Lager) also came out
 with more residual sweetness...and the final gravity,
as I recall was around 1.02.....not as low as I'd hoped for...I attributed
this to my not-so-accurate temperature control system:
ice in a trashcan...

The sample that I drew for the hydrometer had warmed up..as well...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:31:44 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <Steve.Hill at apfs.com>
Subject: 2 QUESTIONS

First question.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of a thick mash vs. a
thin mash?

Second:  How deep of a grain bed is too deep? (looking to mash roughly
100lbs in a 55 gallon drum)

Thanks

Steve Hill




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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:12:29 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Mini Kegs

Tom wrote:

>Steve wrote about his mini keg experiences:
>
>" 2) I had some leakage around the tap/keg joint when the tap was
>inserted wet."

>I have this type of leakage nearly every time, and I find that it limits
the 
>life of the CO2 cartridges.  If there were some way to stop this leakage, 
>the kegs could be kept cold and carbonated in the fridge for several days.

>Anybody have a solution?

I read this incorrectly the first time.  Thought it was leaking around the
bung & the keg, not tap and bung.  How old are the bungs?  Maybe they should
be replaced?  I have the Fass-Frisch  metal tap and Fass-Frisch bungs,
however, I always purposefully wet the tap tube before inserting it as it
helps to make the process much easier.  Got a beer shower once before and
wrung my shirt out into a glass - hey!  No waste!

Maybe your tap OD and bung ID are not a perfect match.  It might be best to
use either matched Phil tap & bungs or Fass-Frisch tap & bungs, but do not
mix them.  They should work together, but who knows.

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal


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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:16:15 -0700
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: Trip to DC

I'm a long time HB'er but only recently joined this HBD.  This is a very
interesting group and I'm sure I'll be able to come away with many new
insights.  Most recently the HSA issue.  Thanks for the input.  To get
to my question:  Can anyone point out some "must see" brew
pubs/microbreweries in the D.C. area?  I'll be there for a week and want
to hit as many as I can.  To reciprocate, I live in SW Washington State
and would be happy to offer my opinion on the locals here
(Washington/Oregon).
Cheers,
Steve
"To brew beer is benevolent to drink it is divine"



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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:34:07 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com>
Subject: poor attenuation all the time

Rick,

I've given your problem some thought.  Here is my feeble opinion on the 
sitution.

1. "Doing step mashes in a kettle with polar ware false bottom.  The bottom 
gets too hot and kills enzymes.  There is a little over a gallon of wort 
under the false bottom that can't be stirred."

I also use a Polarware with the SS perforated false bottom.  I draw off the 
hot wort from under the fals bottom while applying heat and stir it back 
into the mash to get better heat distribution.  This method works very well 
for me.

2.  "Could also just be inconsistent mash temp by heating the mash under the 
kettle.

I think that uneven temperatures in your mash may very well be part of the 
problem.  Use the manual recirculation as described above.

3.  "I initially infuse with 1.33 gal for a protein rest at 122. I think 
this might be too thin."

This is on the thin side.  A better ratio to try would be 1.10 gal/per lb. 
plus an additional gallon to fill the dead space below the false bottom.  A 
protein rest is not necessary unless you are using undermodified malt which 
would be an unusual exception.  I would skip this step and shoot for the 
target mash temp. with your strike water.  Part of the problem may again be 
uneven temperatures in your mash while ramping up to mashing temp. from the 
protein rest.

4.  "I may be racking too early. Not enough yeast to finish the job."

I doubt it.  There is always enough yeast in suspension to get the job done 
under normal circumstances.  It would be very unusual if this was actually 
the problem for some reason.

5.  "during racking co2 transfer method may overly carbonate the beer so 
yeast becomes inactive."

Not a chance at all.  You aren't applying enough pressure over a long enough 
period to dissolve any appreciable CO2 into the wort.  This is definitely 
not the problem.

"My sacrification temp is 153 degrees"

Given the above problems with temperature control, your mash temp. may have 
actually risen above this temperature resulting in the production of less 
fermentables thereby reducing the attenuation some.

Lastly,  IMHO your attenuation is very good.  If you had an O.G. of 1.055 
and a F.G. of 1.014 then I calculate it at 74.5%.  I think 75% is considered 
about normal for most yeasts.  Your fermentation rate does seem a little 
slow.  I would use a large starter to improve the rate if you are not 
already doing so.

You seem to have what we call a non-problem out this way.  Brew on!




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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:53:49 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Wort bombs / HSA / Minikegs and philtaps

Greetings-
Jeff Greenly <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu> made some grenades:
> ...1 gallon wort with a small amount of hop pellets and light DME 
> to 1.060, placed it in new, sanitized Ball brand jars fresh from 
> the grocery, put rings and lids on, and then placed them in 
> SWMBO's canning cooker for 45 minutes at full boil. The lids popped...

You obviously had an infection from some sort of spore forming microbe. 
The only way to kill these is by pressure cooking them.  I don't wish to
start the b*t*l*sm discussion again, as its never been proven one way or
the other.  Chris White told me that pressure cooking is the only way to
be sure nothing is in your starter worts; he said he had an article
upcoming in BYO that covered the basics.  Just follow the same rules as
canning a low acid vegetable and you shouldn't have a problem.  And for
what its worth, if they were truly sterile, there would be no need to
keep them in your fridge.
- ------------
On HSA-
	This has been beaten alot, but I personally think you really have to
abuse beer to get an oxidized (cardboard) flavor.  Burley correctly
pointed out the harm from doing the Papazian with boiling wort through a
kitchen strainer.  Excessive heat after bottling is the only other
situation where I've encountered cardboard ale, if you don't count a
bunch of half filled bottles of Limestone Ale from the Lexington brewery
I tasted several years ago.

<rant mode on>  However, oxidation does provide inexperienced judges
with something to write on their scoresheets when they can't think of
anything else to say.  <rant mode off>
- ---------------
On mini-kegs and the philtap:
	I like minikegs for the purpose of taking a small quanity of beer
somewhere, but I've only counterfilled them and have never carbonated in
them.  The philtap is very well designed - the nicest feature is that
you can dispense either upright or with the keg on its side, which means
it can fit on a refrigerator shelf.  No affiliation, although Dan's a
Bloatarian and his retail store is a half mile away.  I will say that
they aren't that much more convenient to haul around than a three gallon
keg since they don't have handles.  

Dave Harsh						Bloatarian Brewing League
Under curfew in Cincinnati, OH      [30", 0] Listermannian coord.



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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:53:03 -0400
From: "McGregor, Arthur, Mr, OSD-ATL" <Arthur.Mcgregor at osd.mil>
Subject: Re: CO2 cylinders

Jason Gorman <JGORMAN at steelcase.com> writes
>I have an old CO2 cylinder that failed the hydro test.  Is there any way to
>refurbish it so it will pass and can be reused?  Are there any places that
>take them in on trade or is it a boat anchor?

If you take your tank to a gas supply retailer like "Roberts Oxygen" or some
other welding supply shop you might be able to exchange it for a similar
tank filled with CO2.  Typically you take an empty 5, 10, 20 lb. tank to the
gas supply shop and exchange it for a full one, then pay for the gas
($10-20).  If your tank doesn't have any large noticeable markings to
indicate that it failed, you should be ok.  The gas supply shops test (and
maybe fix) the tanks on a regular basis

Art McGregor
Northern Virginia (USA)
email: arthur.mcgregor at osd.mil


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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:26:04 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: AHA & Toll Free Numbers

Hi All,

I hope I can clear a few things up, and calm some frayed nerves.  Wow, I
never would have dreamed that a simple message about the National Homebrew
Competition entry deadline could have stirred up such controversy!

First off, I know Ken Johnson's post was not intended to be a personal
attack on me or the AHA, and I appreciate the fact that he called me to tell
me that.  I have met Ken, shook his hand, and think he is a good person.
Ken has certainly made his contributions to the AHA in the past as site
director of Northwest region for the first round of the '99 National
Homebrew Competition as well as through his help with the '98 AHA National
Homebrewers Conference in Portland.

The truth is I didn't include any phone number in my message to the HBD
other than my direct line which appears in ALL of my email messages because
it is in my email signature (as it is below).  My message was intended to
direct those interested in entering the NHC to our website where homebrewers
can find information and forms for the contest (the deadline for entries was
April 13, so I hope you got your entries in!).  It wouldn't have hurt to
have included the toll free number, but it wasn't intentionally left out.
Believe it or not, there is no conspiracy here at the AHA to keep our toll
free number a secret, in fact we don't have any conspiracies in the
works--although if any of you can think of a good conspiracy that would help
promote homebrewing please share it!

My thanks to Rob Moline for coming to my defense.  It is truly an honor to
have Rob, a member of the AHA Board of Advisors and a great brewer to boot,
stand up for me when he perceived I was being unduly attacked (although, I
repeat, I don't think I was)--thanks mate, I appreciate it.  Trust me, when
Rob says that the AHA staff is not in it for the money, you can believe him!
I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe in the AHA and the need for a
national organization to promote our way of life--homebrewing.

I'd be the first to admit that the AHA has had it's problems in the past,
but the AHA staff and especially the AHA Board of Advisors are working hard
to improve the Association and to better serve the homebrewing community.  I
am absolutely open to criticisms of the AHA from homebrewers--I will hear
anyone out--but I am even more open to suggestions on how to improve the
Association.  I think the AHA has already begun making significant
improvements, and we look to continue to do so.  If you have ideas to share
with us, don't hesitate to contact us, and yes, you may call us toll free at
888-U.CAN.BREW (that's 888-822-6273, I know the W is not really part of the
number, but it does make it easier to remember the number :-), this number
will take you to member services during AOB business hours, or email me at
gary at aob.org.  I would also encourage AHA members to contact the members of
the AHA Board, these are the unsung heroes of the AHA.  This group of
volunteers (including regular contributors to this forum such as Rob Moline,
Dave Houseman, Louis Bonham, and of course our revered HBD janitor Pat
Babcock) has made significant strides in moving the direction of the AHA
towards a more grass roots, member driven organization.  Email addresses for
the Board members can be found at
http://www.beertown.org/AHA/Legal/ahabylaws.htm, so drop them a line.

Yours in Brewing!

Gary Glass

What's that number again?: 888-U.CAN.BREW :-)

Gary Glass, Membership Coordinator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street                        Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121
PO Box 1679                             Fax: (303) 447-2825
Boulder, CO 80306-1679         Email: gary at aob.org
U.S.A.                                       Web: http://www.beertown.org



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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Soapy beer - revisited

You all may recall that a couple of months ago I
opened my first bottle of an oatmeal stout that was my
first try at grain/extract and found it tasted soapy.
My assumption was that is was soap and that I hadn't
rinsed very well. A few wise ones amongst the group
cautioned me not to dump the batch out quite yet
because it may not be soap, but rather that it hadn't
aged enough yet and the taste might be not soap but
the hops in an immature beer. It's been 2 months now
so I just tried another bottle last night and found
the soap taste is gone. At least it is in that bottle.
What I also discovered was the flavor is a little
weak. It appears my extraction was not very good. 
All in all, I'd say I learned quite a bit from this
one batch. Thanks to everyone who helped and
encouraged me. 


=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

That's my story and I'm sticking to it



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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:26:48 +1000
From: "Helen Pay" <hpay at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: An Answer For Ray And A Question For Steve

Ray Kruse asked a question of me regarding my last post (now I am sorry Ray
that I am into cross dressing again and making an appearance as Helen). He
asked "has what?"

Ray the missing word was "ended". It was there when I sent my post but
somehow got eaten up by Pat Babcock's computer.

But moving on, Ray has raised an interesting point. He suggests the use of
lactic acid to the sparge water will hold the pH down and sparging then can
be carried on (presumably forever) without extracting tannins. Well can it?
Not that I would want lactic acid in my brew (unless desirable) but I ask a
serious question. If the pH of the sparge water was held below 6.0, would it
mean that tannins cannot be leached from the grain bed?

I have always seen the pH rise (during sparging) as being a natural
consequence of the "run off" getting closer to the pH of the sparge water
(in my case around 7.5) as less sugars are available to extract. I seem to
magically reach the required wort quantity in the kettle when "run off" pH
reaches about 5.9 and there sure doesn't taste like there is anything like
sugar left in the "run off" at this point. The ratio of grain to water seems
to work out at about 1 to 6
 by weight. This includes the water used in the mash.

 I have always seen these ratios as simply being God's will and I would
never have thought to explore it further before acquiring my instrument of
heresy, being the pH meter. I must admit these days it gets more use testing
the water in the turtle tank.

So a question for Steve Alexander, or anyone with an answer. Can you keep
tannins from leaching out of the grain bed by perpetually keeping the sparge
pH below 6.0?
I'm curious to know anyone's thoughts.

Cheers
Phil
(Cross Dressing As Helen)



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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:24:42 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Starter Grenades

Jeff Greenly has been practicing making granades.

 ....light DME to 1.060, placed it in new, sanitized Ball brand jars fresh 
from the grocery, put rings and lids on, and then placed them in SWMBO's 
canning cooker for 45 minutes at full boil. The lids popped, so I know there 
was a good seal. After, they were allowed to cool to room temp, and then 
they were placed into the fridge for future use. Almost every one of them 
burst in some way...

Jeff, Was the "canning cooker" a "Pressure Cooker" or a "Hot Water Bath" 
canner?  The hot water canner is only good for acidic foods like tomatoes. 
You really need to use a pressure cooker at 15LBs/in^2 for 15 minutes or 
more. A hot water bath will not kill bacteria to the level that a pressure 
cooker will.

Steven


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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:57:36 -0400
From: "Todd Hannemann" <mustangcoupe at mediaone.net>
Subject: Champagne or Beer

Champagne or Beer... that is the question..... I recently brewed a batch of
an amber ale... Today was the taste test... I was planning on opening all of
the 5 gallons at the after singing party for my new house, BUT it tasted
like Champagne not beer.... can anyone tell me what might have gone wrong
with the batch?

Todd Hannemann




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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:04:31 -0700
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: lube 

 Marc (who is always right) wrote:
>All this talk of rusty bungs and rugby makes me wonder if I'm in Oz. >
 This reminds me once again to sing the praises of incorporating Astroglide
 into your lifestyle.   A while back I contacted the manufacturer to suggest
the slogan: "From  Brewhouse to BathHouse...make it a part of your life".
Funny tho'...didn't
 get an answer back.  Now maybe if we include the footy field.....
  Trust me: cleaning this stuff is not a problem.
 --dave, sacramento





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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:14:37 -0600
From: "Matthew Saunders" <matthews117 at home.com>
Subject: A Sad Day.

Collective,

It is with great sadness that I have to report the death of one of our own
and one of our finest.  Kenny Lefkowitz passed away last month in his home.
He was the founder of the New River Valley Brewing Company.  I worked with
him for about a year and a half starting in 1999 at Vintage Cellar in
Virginia.  Although I had already been brewing for many years, he taught me
more in that short time than I had learned on my own since the 80's.  He
will be missed.  Please say a short prayer or just have a moment of silence
for a wonderful brewer.

Matthew Saunders, now in CO.


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