HOMEBREW Digest #3622 Wed 02 May 2001

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  Drill Speed ("John Zeller")
  re:Air lock in RIMS ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: Yeast Viability ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: Rodenbach ("Mark Tumarkin")
  adding beer to the haze ... clarification sought. ("Stephen Alexander")
  FG Estimation (Ken Schwartz)
  Final Gravity ("Houseman, David L")
  Pumps in RIMS and HERMS systems ("Mike Pensinger")
  RE:  N. CA Road Trip (Peter Torgrimson)
  Re: Munich Dunkel (Jeff Renner)
  Bernzomatic and stone- Buy Both ("Bruce Garner")
  Electric Immersion Heater ("Bruce Garner")
  All Grain System Break-In ("Steven Parfitt")
  RE: 2001 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Subject: Lambic digest / Alaxander Rodenbach / Help (Tom Riddle)
  15th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest (Mark Garthwaite)
  Stein Resources (Mike Lewandowski)
  parti-gyle brewing (TomAGardner)
  Subject: Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalten (Brunnenbraeu)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:25:38 -0700 From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com> Subject: Drill Speed Hello Rick, You wrote "With the re-birth thread about which grain mill is best, I started wondering, Hmmmm??? Just how does one go about determining how many rpm the drill is turning while crushing grain? Is there some way to attach a tachometer?" I read some of the other suggestions and gave your question some thought. Probably the simplest way to solve the puzzle would be to run a few pounds of grain through the mill at a fairly leisurely pace and time it. The mill specifications probably tell you how many pounds per minute you can expect to mill. Figure the rate you are milling at that speed and adjust the speed accordingly if you have a variable speed drill. Another way would be to simply eyeball the speed of the mill rollers and make an educated guess at the rpms. You can visualize four or five revolutions per second as being a fairly slow pace. This would equate to 250-300 rpm. Most mills work best at 300 rpm or less. Hand cranking the mill you would be doing well at about 1 or 2 rpm so aim for about 4 times faster than you can turn it with the hand crank. Slower is generally better. When you think you have it where it should be, you could do another timed crush and check the rate again. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 03:53:45 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re:Air lock in RIMS .2brewers4u <<Here is a test. Use water only, recirculate normally. Take your finger a partially clog the pick up line in the tun, until you get full suction. Keep it there with pump on high. You will probably start to see air bubbles after a few minutes. You are trying to simulate a "stuck" grain bed. Most likely the pump is pulling so hard, air is getting into the lines. >> Air leaks are likely, but under low pressure you'll also pull all gasses out of solution and increase the amount of water vapor. Cavitation itself doesn't imply aeration. fwiw, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:15:07 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Yeast Viability George Fix writes ... << This is absolutely correct. The references were also pointed out to me in private e-mail (in a slightly more civil manner!). >> If you want civility George, perhaps you should drop your 4 year old grudge against a few people who found documentable technical errors in your earlier books. When you begin by posting pointed insults to "theologians ... denouncing [your book]..." YOU begin the cycle of incivility. No one denounced your books, but like every other human endeavor there are errors. I wish you would attack those technical errors with the same vigor and tenacity you've shown when attacking we who brought these to your attention. << > Glycogen level is >a good thing to measure/understand but it's not viability. This assumes there is a universally accepted notion of "viability". In fact there is not,[...] >> No, and I don't get the logic: The temperature of my mashtun is a good thing to measure but unrelated to the surface temperature of Mars. This does not "assumes there is a universally accepted notion of " the surface temperature of Mars. Viability literally means a cell is alive, and this has been regularly measured by counting cell colony formation in a gel or agar medium. There may not be an ASBC method(or is there?) but there are well established methods. Kirsop wrote about this for NCYC use long ago (1950s?), and the same basic method is reported in recent papers. One can argue around the margins about the relationship between colony forming units (CFUs) and viable cells, but it is the well established method of measuring yeast viability. << >Methylene violet stain has recently been suggested as an >improvement. The advantages of this over methylene blue are discussed in >J.ASBC 57(1):18-23, 1999 by Smart et al. [...] I have discussed this article at length elsewhere, [...] The limitations of staining cited in this article occur only when < 90% viability is experienced. >> Actually they didn't note that limitation. They included comments about the poor performance during certain growth phases(related), and the pH dependence of the result. Iodine of course is not related to viability, but to glycogen or other starch. By the iodine test a slurry killed by heat or chemical means will still show as "viable". The flaked dried yeast from the heath food store that has been in my fridge for over a year, when made into a slurry still shows as "viable" by visual iodine test. That is what I mean when I say iodine does not measure viability. Glycogen will drop from 40+% of dry cell mass to about 6% of dry cell mass over the first several hours after pitching. The yeast are NOT 6 times less viable at high krausen by ANY reasonable measure - yet iodine indicates this. <<. Some of the most problematic beers I have produced in the past have been with yeast in this condition. Quite frankly if it is below 90% I am going to take corrective action, and from a practical point of view I could care less if it 60% or for that matter 80%. >> Agree, but the M.blue test can overestimate viability when it is (by CFU count) below 85% so may give a false "good" result. Iodine tests something entirely different. - -- Vitality (not viability) -- Most interesting is that in the paper above Methylene violet (see paper for methods) correlates quite well with yeast "vitality", a measure of the state of health of the yeast. Vitality measures are meant to measure the condition of yeast relevant to brewing application and are undoubtedly crude, Vitality is without an established measure. M.Blue staining does not correlate well w/ vitality in this study, M.violet does. cc: George Fix -S Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:10:58 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: Rodenbach Steven Parfitt asks: "I recently got a couple of bottles of Alaxander Rodenbach, and in searching the archives found references in late 1999 and early 2000 that Palm had bought out Rodnebach and was making changes, like discontinuing Alaxander Rodenbach, although they are reported to be keeping Rodenbach Gran Cru." My understanding is that Palm is discontinuing the Alexander, which has cherry juice added, but keeping the Rodenbach Classic and the Gran Cru. This URL from the Real Beer Page has more info http://realbeer.com/news/articles/news-000720.html While it's still disappointing to loose the Alexander, it's not the tragedy that loosing Rodenbach or the Gran Cru would have been. These are truly unique and wonderful beers. Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:10:28 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: adding beer to the haze ... clarification sought. I've had a copy of Bamforth's ASBC paper on 'beer haze' printed and in my stack for months. It's a great concise review paper with clear reasoning. Charles Bamforth has been hitting 'em out of the park recently. Thanks for making me read it, Paul Smith. pksmith_morin1 writes .... [of PVPP and others ...] >My only problem >with these agents is that they also tend to pull isohumulones, not merely >the offending polyphenols. I've seen studies where polyamides were used to filter the bejeebers out of beer and they will grab an interesting and wide array of materials. What I haven't seen is a credible study that shows the *amount* of isohumulones lost to a haze-effective dose of PVPP is significant. My tongue tells me the amount is small and well within the huge error bounds of IBUs produced by HB hopping. Hops aroma constituents and melanoidin extraction concerns are similar. Early and proper use of PVPP can unquestionable *improve* some beers. I don't advise any fining unless you expect problems. PVPP and it's cousins are the least objectionable and most effective of the lot. >This is why I am loathe to place too much >emphasis on reducing polyphenolic or protein components - e.g., using >proteolysis, as I said earlier, is a great way to reduce haze; it is also a >great way to kill your foamstand since the haze-active proteins are not >separate from the foamstand proteins. Agreed - proteolysis is dangerous to foam, but some people (not me) treasure clear beer more than head. It is a judgment call. You are wrong tho' to assume that every well modified malt (by Kolbach or SNR%) will make clear beer. Modification indices do not tell us what we need to know about the haze potential of malts. In problem cases a protein rest or PVPP may solve the problem. >I would rely more on "good practice," >which I define, in this instance, as the absolute avoidance of >post-brewhouse O2 pickup. Paul, I'd prefer that 'beer makers' took a page from the better winemakers book and did as little processing of beer after pitching as feasible. I'd rather be a great wort & starter maker than a 'brewer' who achieves results by fining, adding hop extracts, VDK removal enzymes, filtering and otherwise 'doctoring' the beer. That doesn't mean I wouldn't use these methods, but that I consider all of them to be a crutch and *USUALLY* unnecessary. 'Usually' isn't 'always' and knowing what other methods work with a minimum of negative impact and when to use them is important. Limited proteolysis or proper PVPP type finings are two practical approaches available to HBers when good practices fail to produce clear beer with a given malt. As far as O2 pickup goes - there is a mountain of evidence the oxidizing and polymerizing phenolics in the mash and boost to boil improves a beers stability (haze resistance). I still argue that the O2 induced oxidation, and the loss of simple phenolics is a flavor negative. Other reasonable people disagree or give the flavor matter less weight. Avoiding O2 in the brewhouse - according the ASBC Bamforth paper you cite is a possible cause of beer haze , and does not reduce haze. Of course O2 inclusion after the fermentation is a universally recognized evil, can cause haze, but is not necessary for haze. O2 exclusion after fermentation is not sufficient to prevent a haze if it's already 'built in the beer'. >Regarding ratios: Sorry - I don't get all of your comments. Please review my understanding of your statement and explain. I'll adapt Bamforth's terminology... any molecule with 2 or more phenolic groups is a polyphenol (but not necessarily a polymer) to Bamforth. Only the simplest phenolics, like ferulic, vanillic, caffeic acid, quercetin etc are NOT polyphenols. The polymers of these simplest examples are both polymers and polyphenols. The Flavanols, proanthocyanidins, leucoanthocyanidins etc have two phenolic groups held together by an adapted heterocyclic ring. Bamforth would call these polyphenols, but not polymers. The dimer trimers etc of the flavanols, etc are polymers of polyphenols. >Regarding ratios: If there is an overabundance of polyphenols vis-a-vis the >protein HA sites, then this will prevent the dimers formed from binding to >other dimers, and the total haze potential is consequently reduced. I think you are saying that if there is an overabundance of MONOMERIC PACs, then these will bind at the HAprotein sites and not cross-link to another protein. I agree. I mentioned the other day, the monomeric forms won't cross link (aren't tannoids). You should understand tho' that if there are both mono- and di-meric PACs as in beer then di-meric PACs will bind more strongly and so eventually occupy more sites on the HA protein.. But ... >then this will prevent the dimers formed from binding to >other dimers No. Why would this prevent further polymerization of the now higher concentration of PAC dimers ? I don't see that and anyway dimeric PACs are tannoids and don't need to polymerize further to add to haze. Also the creation or failure to create can't reduce that haze. I think you must mean something other than "dimer" here. So I still disagree with the conclusion. If you add a complete mix of wort-like polyphenolics, including polymeric polyphenols to the beer you will get more haze till particulate precipitation dominates, not less. The paper I cited on total stabilization uses exactly this method. And the Bamforth paper you cite described this also. [other ratio statements omitted pending clarification (sic) ] I'm open to clarification, Paul, but I suspect you are incorrectly using the term "dimer" to represent the polyphenol-protein complex which is not a polymer at all. Could that be it ? ==== >don't >polymerize your haze compounds - O2 is your enemy! If haze is the only issue then you should oxidize and polymerize all the polyphenols you can before the boil and leave them in the break for added haze stability. Of course if flavor or color matters you may have other issues with O2 in the brewing process, but that's not haze. O2 after fermentation is of course a serious potential haze generator. sincere thanks for the intelligent discussion Paul, -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 06:16:38 -0600 From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com> Subject: FG Estimation Axle axe'd: "What is the proper way to determine what the Final Gravity should be regardless of style ?" Most yeast strains typically will ferment away 65% to 75% of the OG above 1.000, leaving 25% to 35%. So if your OG is 1.050, you would be left with 25% to 35% of the .050 part, or .0125 to 0.0175, for an expected FG between 1.0125 to 1.0175 or 1.013 to 1.018 rounded to three decimal places. The percentage of reduction of the OG to the FG is called "attenuation". Specifically when measuring attenuation by gravity only, it is called "apparent" attenuation because the alcohol that is produced, being of a gravity considerably lower than 1.000, "distorts" the picture by exaggerating the gravity drop more than is accounted for by just the reduction in sugar. When the effect of alcohol's exaggeration is accounted for, we have what is called "real attenuation". But for determining what your hydrometer will read at the This is highly dependent on several factors -- yeast strain, aeration, wort composition, mash temperature, fermentation temperature, to name a few. The yeast suppliers generally publish the apparent attenuation ranges for their yeast strains in catalogs and on their web pages. - -- ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer "The Gadget Store" http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:03:21 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: Final Gravity Alxe asks: " What is the proper way to determine what the Final Gravity should be regardless of style ?" Well I'm not quite sure what question you're asking since what final gravity a beer "should have" is highly dependent on the style. Some are supposed to finish much lower than others but definition. However, if you're asking what the lowest final gravity of a batch of beer should reach then there is a way to tell. Basically you want to force ferment some of the wort. Take some of the pitched wort, 50ml-100ml is probably enough. You want to aerate this well and place it in a nicely warm place. Agitate it often by stirring, swirling, shaking. You're not going to make good beer this way so don't worry about that. Do maintain sanitation so you don't introduce wild yeast or bacteria that would alter the fermentation. What you are doing is to force the yeast and wort in question to ferment to it's maximum quickly so you can measure this and know ahead of the main fermentation what final gravity it could achieve. Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:18:44 -0400 From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Pumps in RIMS and HERMS systems Quick Question... In a RIMS or HERMS system do the pumps runn constantly? Or are they turned on and off with the element in a RIMS system? I am trying to decide if bypass solenoids would be a good idea in my HERMS system to reroute wort flow through the HERMS coil and leave the pump running at all times. Any thoughts out there? Happy Brewing Mike Pensinger beermkr at bellatlantic.net http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 07:33:22 -0700 From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net> Subject: RE: N. CA Road Trip "Jim Hagey" <hagey at attglobal.net> writes: >>I am planning a road trip with my son to Northern California .... (snip) Question: >>location of brewpubs? If you are going to be in the very northern part of the state I recommend you stop at North Coast Brewery in Ft. Bragg. You can tour the brewery and they have (at least, used to have, since I haven't been up there in a while) a nice restaurant across the street from the brewery. There are a ton of breweries and brewpubs in Northern California. My suggestion is, as soon as you land in California, go to a homebrew supply shop or brewpub and get a copy of the Celebrator Beer News, a tabloid newspaper type publication. It contains a listing of brewpubs and breweries in the territory. It includes the phone numbers so you can call for directions to the establishments. Peter Torgrimson Worts of Wisdom Homebrewers Mountain View, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:30:55 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Munich Dunkel Another thing to consider regarding Munich malt - there are different colors. Durst makes 20 EBU and 40 EBU (very roughly 10 and 20L). A beer made with all dark Munich malt will be an appropriate color and very rich flavored. Probably will finish a little high so mashing at a lower temperature might be appropriate. I was going to brew a 100% dark malt Munich this winter, but I dropped the bucket of malt crossing the street to a friend's house who has a mill. The lid popped off and I was able to recover only about half. So I had to substitute some pilsner malt and a little debittered chocolate. Tasted nice, but not the experiment I wanted to try. Jeff - -- ***Please note new address*** (old one will still work) Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:50:17 -0500 From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com> Subject: Bernzomatic and stone- Buy Both I tried to buy the oxygen regulator from Bernzomatic as a replacement part and was told that they didn't sell it for liability reasons. So, I decided to buy the mapp gas/oxygen product for $50 and add on a stone for another $15. I will just slip the stone hose over the torch end. For $10-15 more than I would pay for the Liquid Bread set-up I have a nice torch in the bargain. A friend has the LB and the Oxygen regulators appear to be the same. Bruce Garner in Madison, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:35:33 -0500 From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com> Subject: Electric Immersion Heater So what to do with my Mapp gas torch. I made an brewer's electric immersion heater. I incorporated a 4500 watt water heater element. I used the old style one with four bolt holes - $6.06 at Home Depot. I attached it to a 1" brass elbow sweated to a 30" long 1" copper pipe. The brass elbow is sweat fitting on one side and threaded on the other. The threaded side has an ample flat shoulder to accept the rubber gasket that comes with the heater element. The problem is that the plastic insulation holding the screw terminals won't fit inside the threads. By using a cheap 1 1/4" hole drill the threads are removed and the element, with its rubber gasket removed and put on the backside snugly around the plastic terminal block, will just slide into the now threadless elbow. The wires are slid down the pipe and attached first. The element is held in place with a 2 1/2" spread U bolt. The heater element bolt holes are, on the diagonal, a little more than 2 1/2" center to center. I used a rat tail file to groove the back side of the brass elbow where the U bolt bears. The rubber gasket bulges nicely when you tighten the U bolt. I run mine at 120 V so the output is 1150 watts and the draw about 9 amps. They are very flexible in use. My mash/lauter tun is fully insulated with a bottom outlet. I just lower the heater in and it can have my water to strike temperature in a couple hours. My hot liquor tank sits on a shelf and gets another heater in it. When I mash in the first element goes in the HLT and my sparge water is soon ready. I recirculate without a heating chamber. But I can drop an element or two right in the mash while the pump is running and get a temperature boost. When I run off I drop the elements in my boil kettle to run in conjunction with the burner below. They will keep a boil going by themselves. The cost is minimal. I made them for about $15 each. They can be cleaned by hanging the element in vinegar for a few minutes. If you want a photo email me. Bruce Garner in Madison, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:53:47 -0400 From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> Subject: All Grain System Break-In OK, my Gee-whiz All-Grain brewing system is almost ready for christening! I've washed the kettles with Greased Lightning (alkaline cleaner) and rinsed them well. Is there a recommended pre-cleaning and break-in procedure? Recommended cleaning compound? Do I need to dedicate the first mash to the Brew-Gods? Seems like the first batch will probably be cleaning out the lines, etc, and I'm not sure if I want to spend a lot of time making a batch of beer that could be contaminated. Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery, Ready to run. Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=241124 "Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von Bismarck Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:06:04 -0400 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: RE: 2001 Buzz Off Homebrew Competition This is the final announcement of the 2001 Buzz Off Homebrew competition. Check out the details of the beer, cider and mead competition at: http://home.earthlink.net/~housemanfam/2001BuzzOff/ to be held June 9th at the General Lafayette Inn and Brewery in Lafayette Hills, PA, just outside of Philadelphia. The Brewers Unlimited Zany Zymurgists (BUZZ) homebrew club is seeking BJCP judges in addition entries in all style categories. The Buzz Off is an MCAB Qualifying Event. Entries are due by June 3rd. David Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:27:25 -0400 From: Tom Riddle <ftr at oracom.com> Subject: Re: Subject: Lambic digest / Alaxander Rodenbach / Help References: <200105010428.AAA21285 at brew.hbd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:41:50 -0400 > From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> > Subject: Lambic digest / Alaxander Rodenbach / Help > > > I recently got a couple of bottles of Alaxander Rodenbach, and in searching > the archives found references in late 1999 and early 2000 that Palm had > bought out Rodnebach and was making changes, like discontinuing Alaxander > Rodenbach, although they are reported to be keeping Rodenbach Gran Cru. I was at the Kulminator in Antwerp last Thursday and heard the same sad story. Also, the Alexander was crossed off of every beer menu I saw in Belgium. - -- Tom Riddle Oracom, Inc. http://www.oracom.com Tel. +1 978.557.5710x305 Fax +1 978.557.5716 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:32:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Garthwaite <mgarth at primate.wisc.edu> Subject: 15th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild is proud to announce that tickets are now on sale for the Great Taste of the Midwest on Saturday August 11th at Olin-Turville Park in Madison, WI. Once again we expect 100 of the finest breweries from throughout the Midwest to join us. Your $20 ticket includes a commemorative beer glass and samples of over 400 great beers. To order tickets by mail, send a self-addressed stamped envelope and a check or money order made payable to the Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild to: MHTG PO Box 1365 Madison, WI 53701. For more info, visit www.mhtg.org Cheers, -Mark Garthwaite MHTG Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 19:34:19 -0400 From: Mike Lewandowski <mlew5 at home.com> Subject: Stein Resources A relative of mine has been collecting steins for a while. He's interested in knowing (approximately) how much they are worth. I have no idea where to tell him to start looking. Does anyone know of any resources (on-line or off) that I could point him to? Thanks! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:10:59 EDT From: TomAGardner at cs.com Subject: parti-gyle brewing If you do batch sparges and measure your s.g. for each you will know how to figure out a parti-gyle recipe. This weekend I mashed 40 lb and made 4 gallons of 1.120 s.g. barleywine from the first runnings, 1.072 IPA (boiled on the dregs of the BW - I couldn't face wasting the wort held by 6 oz of leaf hops), then I added a minimash of chocolate, crystal and mild to the third runnings for 5 gallons of 1.042 mild (overshot). It all looks and smells great so far. Enjoy! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:31:19 EDT From: Brunnenbraeu at aol.com Subject: Subject: Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalten > Hopfen und Malz Gott erhalt's. This is a very old German saying > that refers to the brewer's art. The Hopfen and Malz does indeed > refer to hops and barley. The Gott erhalts roughly translated into > English means god will provide or god takes care of the rest. > This is taken from the verb erhalten, meaning to maintain, sustain > or preserve. I agree with Jeff, this is a colloquialism of the verb > so it will rhyme nicely with Malz. This last part of the saying is a > reference to yeast. Ladies and Gentlemen, Brewsters, Brewers, and Ordinary Beer Consumers, I don't quite agree with this explanation, mainly because _erhalt's_ ist a shortened imperative form instead of _erhalte es_, so I'm convinced it should mean: Hops and malt, may God keep care of it. It seams to be a plea to God for keeping care of always enough hops and malt, so that we can brew forever. Cheers / Zum Wohl / Na zdrowie, Volker R. Quante - Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery brunnenbraeu at aol.com Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer Return to table of contents
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