---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  skunky beer (ensmingr)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Final gravity (Alex MacGillivray)
  question re: Mash Temps (Darrell.Leavitt)
  clarification/acidification power test (george fix)
  Barleywine Yeast / Hop Bags (Ken Schwartz)
  RE: Beer in Moscow, Russia ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: Air Lock in RIMS / control ("Steven Parfitt")
  Air Lock in RIMS ("Dennis Collins")
  Re:Barley Wine Yeas Selection ("Vernon, Mark")
  sake festival (ensmingr)
  lactose in sweet stout (robin_g)
  : grain mill roller speed ("Jack Schmidling")
  Selling on the Internet ("Matthew T. Litchfield")
  Oxyenator - fuzzy math ("Donald D. Lake")


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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 01:36:24 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: skunky beer

Prof. Denis De Keukeleire (Ghent University, Belgium)
recently wrote a review article on the lightstruck flavor of
beer for "The Spectrum". It should soon be available online
from http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/photochem/spectrum.html
 . The article summarizes recent research on the mechanism
for the formation of beer lightstruck flavor. I found the
article most interesting, even though it provided little new
of practical importance.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Life Under the Sun: http://www.yale.edu/yup/lifesun




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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:29:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at home.com>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

>From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
>Subject: Barley Wine Yeast Selection/Watney's Cream Stout/California
>I am laying down a small (1 gal) batch of a barley wine recipe that I am
>tweaking. I am not sure what yeast to use.

     Try the Danstar Nottingham....attenuative, flocculent...a proven
producer of award winning Barleywines. Be prepared for 6 months of secondary
aging prior to kegging/bottling to fully enjoy the benefits.

>From: "John" <john at ruthsx.com>
>Subject: Chillen in St. Louis... Hook me up!!!
> Anybody from St. louis?  Where's the best place to go?  It'll
>have to be somewhere where I can entertain clients and enjoy a good pint at
>the same time.

     I don't live in STL.
     St. Louis Tap Room is the best, possibly ONLY worthy place....
     Make sure your clients get the Sticky Toffee Pudding! (Pair that with
an oatmeal stout.)
     Brewers...inspirational, friendly and accomodating; happy to share
knowledge. Stephen, Sara, and the rest of the crowd there go out of their
way for brewers.
     Check them out. You will like them as much as I do.

Jethro Gump





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Date:  4 May 2001 02:13:57 AKDT
From: Alex MacGillivray <brewbeer at usa.net>
Subject: Final gravity

Hey everybody!

I made a belgian triple about 5 weeks ago. I've got a question about hight
gravity ales like this one. My OG was 1.084 and I've got a FG of 1.024. I had
to re-pitch half way throught fermentation to further drop the FG after the
fermentation stalled. My question is this: Do those numbers look right to
those of you who have done high gravities before? I'm wondering if I pitch
wine yeast to further lower the gravity as it's a little sweet. 


Thanks in advance,
Alex



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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:58:57 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: question re: Mash Temps

quoting myself: 28 April
- -------------------------
on commenting on Dave's higher than wanted final gravity:
yes it does seem to make sense that the Munuch and
CaraMunich...along with the high (154F) mash temp couldbe the culprit/s.

My question is this:  What would be the difference, in terms of the final
product if one were to:

1) proceed directly to mash out temps (170F) after the rest at 148F or so..
<do not pass go,...do not collect 200 dollars>

OR

2) take a short rest at 154F  before proceeding to mashout?

I have been thinking about this for a while...and  finally saw the opportunity
to ask.Any thoughts?

 ..Darrell

(thinking way too much about brewing.......)

- -------------------------

Jeff suggested that I repost this question.  It is, essentially, whether there
 is any real difference between :

(1) a single stage infusion ( at 148F) followed by mashout (passing as rapidly
 as possible through the 154-162F optimal range for alpha amylase activity
[Fix and Fix])

and

(2)  a double stage infusion, first at 148F, then at 158F, then mashout.


Jeff suggested, if I read him correctly, that there may be little difference
(for the Munich Dunkel that was being discussed) in that the alpha may
not need too much time to do its thing.

Can anyone help me to clear this confusion from my mad-cap brain...so
that I can consider another?

 ...Darrell



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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:02:38 -0400
From: george fix <gjfix at CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: clarification/acidification power test

Hi!

I have gotten a lot of private e-mail asking me to clarify what I meant by 
"both" among two conflicting situations. What I meant to say if I had not 
been in such a hurry was that I check both for both the % cells able to 
metabolize appropriate stains as well for glycogen/trehalose reserves via 
iodine reactions. I have worked hard over the years to develop a 
propagation scheme that will give favorable results for both, and at the 
same time is optimized (to the limited extent I am able to do so) with 
respect to finished beer flavors, particularly ester levels. My scheme is 
inefficient compared to what is done in medical research, but then again 
the latter do not seem overly concerned with what their end products taste 
like. Neither do the producers of synthetic fuels!

Several of us have been playing around with the so-called Acidification 
Power Test (APT), which has the potential of being relevant to homebrewing 
since only a pH meter is involved. If anything ever comes of this I sure it 
will be reported here or some other popular venue. The key step will be to 
bridge the "crucial gap" (to use Milgaard's term) between biochemical 
theory and actual beer flavors. One of course could define ones way to 
victory through the use of appropriate terminology. I, however, quickly get 
bored by endless debates over definitions. Just about all of it falls into 
the category of "arm chair speculation"; i.e., discussions which taken in 
isolation are neither deep or original, yet on the other hand they are also 
of no practical value either!

I do not wish to make light of the legitimate differences we all have over 
what constitutes "desirable beer flavor". There is an analogous situation 
currently raging on forums devoted to classical music regarding the Met's 
recent production (and Texaco broadcast) of Alban Berg's Lulu. Some find it 
to be "trash", while others (including myself) consider it to be a towering 
masterpiece of 20th century art. I don't think that these differences are 
likely to be resolved anytime soon either! However, in homebrewing the 
differences are not important. What we all need is methodology that will 
reliably predict the consequences of our actions. Given that we can all go 
our separate ways.

Cheers,

George Fix
*******************************************************
George J. Fix                 Phone:  864-656-4562
Professor and Head
Department of Mathematical Sciences
Clemson University 29634
*******************************************************




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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:26:47 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Barleywine Yeast / Hop Bags

Jeff Greenly asks about yeast for barleywine.

I used Chico yeast in my millenium-celebration BW "99 Barleywine" and it
worked wonderfully.  I think it's a fine choice, probably better than
champagne yeast.

Carl Hudson asks about the effects using hop bags.

Conventional wisdom says the hop bags cause about a 10% decrease in
utilization, or that you should use 10% more hops when using the bags.

- --
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
Fermentation Chillers and More at The Gadget Store
http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com




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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:39:44 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Beer in Moscow, Russia

It's been a number of years since I was in Moscow but as I recall, and it
was still the Soviet Union at the time, local beer was very uninteresting.
McDonalds and local culture were about the only items of interest.  We did
go drinking at the American Bar where it seemed that most of the westerners
would collect.  The beer was German Lowenbrau, Irish Guinness and whatever
else could be imported.   The drinks of choice for the Muscovites was vodka
or tea; perhaps some strong coffee if it was available.  The local hookers
seemed to all be PhDs looking for work of any kind.  Lots of stories, but
that's for another time when we've all been drinking....Do make it to the
Bolshoi, the Kremlin and some wonderful churches.  

Dave Houseman


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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:48:57 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Air Lock in RIMS / control 

MAB responds to Dave Ludwig, replying to David N Boice with :

>>You might be reducing the pressure of the liquid enough to reach it's 
>>vapor pressure. Could be a local effect where the static pressure in >>the 
>>vicinity of a fitting is causing localized boiling at the >>elevated 
>>temperatures. Just a thought. Dave Ludwig>Flat Iron Brewery
>I do believe you have hit the nail on the head.  In order to prevent
>this one would need to insure the flow rate of the pump is in check >with 
>the supply rate of the wort i.e. the NPSH (net positive suction >head) is 
>enough to prevent cavitation. If the mash is compacted it >will reduce the 
>NPSH available and will cause cavitation. Try lowering >the pump further 
>below the the mash. Try lowering the pump flow rate
>(should be able to purchase a rheostat from home depot for this).
>Try increasing the pipe (tubing) size from the mash tun to the pump
>inlet & decrease the discharge size.
>Keep the mash tun thoroughly stirred to prevent compaction.Matt >B.Northern 
>VA.

In addition, I would add;
Watch your feed to the pump. Keep it straight for at least 6" and make all 
bends gradual (especially on the input), not 90Degree Elbow fittings. These 
restrict flow.

Add a ball valve to the output of the pump, and adjust it to restrict flow. 
This will give you control over the ratio of inlet pressure to pump suction 
by controlling suction.

If you are using a March Pump (BB&MB and others sell them rebranded) and it 
is the AC version, then it IS a shaded pole motor. It will NOT work with a 
speed control (Rheostat is not a good term for these). Shaded pole motors 
suck for speed control You will be lucky to get 10% reduction before it 
drops out. They are very phase dependent, not voltage dependent. You would 
have to use a variable frequency voltage source to properly control them.

March recommends a restrictor (ball valve partially closed) in the pump 
output for flow control, unless you bought the DC version (VERY Expensive!) 
in which case you can use voltage control, but again it isn't just a 
rheostat. I went with the DC version for ease of control.

Steven



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Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:07:00 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Air Lock in RIMS

On the RIMS system with bubbles during operation, Dave writes:

>You might be reducing the pressure of the liquid enough to reach it's vapor
>pressure. Could be a local effect where the static pressure in the vicinity
>of a fitting is causing localized boiling at the elevated temperatures.Just
>a thought.>Dave Ludwig>Flat Iron Brewery

This is possible, but then there would be no bubbles downstream of the pump.

Then Matt writes:

>I do believe you have hit the nail on the head.  In order to prevent
>this one would need to insure the flow rate of the pump is in check with
>the supply rate of the wort i.e. the NPSH (net positive suction head) is
>enough to prevent cavitation.  If the mash is compacted it will reduce
>the NPSH available and will cause cavitation.
>Try lowering the pump further below the  mash.
>Try lowering the pump flow rate(should be able to purchase a rheostat
>from home depot for this).
>Try increasing the pipe (tubing) size from the mash tun to the pump
>Keep the mash tun thoroughly stirred to prevent compaction.

Matt B.Northern VA.

Ok, I'm confused.  I thought that one of the reasons we practice the RIMS
technique was clearer wort through constant bed filtration.  Why would you
keep stirring the bed, doesn't this defeat the whole purpose?  Plus it
provides a massive source of heat loss.

As far as cavitation, it is a local phenomenon.  When the liquid reaches its
vapor pressure, vapor bubbles appear but would disappear quickly downstream
of the pump when the pressure in the line increased above the vapor pressure
of the wort.  Basically, you are pulling a vacuum on the wort and any gas
pockets that appear do not have any air in them, just vaporized wort.

The problem sounds like an air leak somewhere in the lines.  If not the
lines, a manifold is a really good place for air to hide, plus the mash
itself can contain air trapped in the husks and grain.  If you run your
system with just water with a restriction on the inlet you should be able to
find the leak if it is in the lines, if no leak is found, then it's probably
air in the mash.  If you see bubbles on the inlet side of the pump, but none
on the outlet side, it's cavitation.

FWIW,

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:17:37 -0500 
From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon at pioneer.com>
Subject: Re:Barley Wine Yeas Selection

Jeff Greenly asked about using Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity in his
Barley Wine. I say go for it Jeff. I have been using 3787 in my Barley Wines
for 4 years now and had great success both in competitions and in our club
tastings. If you are worried about the phenolics that 3787 tends to throw -
lager your Barley Wine, I lager mine for 3 - 4 mos before bottling. The
phenols may still be a little strong after the first year but mellow with
age.

Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT
Sr. Network Engineer - LanTech
Pioneer Hi-Bred Int'l
vernonmark at phibred.com
(515)270-4188

You don't learn to hold your own in the world by standing on guard, but by
attacking, and getting well-hammered yourself.   -- George Bernard Shaw






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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 10:46:22 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: sake festival

Thought some of you might be interested in this recent post
from the Sake Digest:

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Life Under the Sun: http://www.yale.edu/yup/lifesun
 .......
JIZAKE - JAPANESE MICROBREW SAKES COME TO D.C.

JIZAKE - The Largest Sushi and Sake Festival in the World
Sponsored by Sake Service Institute and the Japan Sake
Exporting Board June 16th (Saturday afternoon) 1-4 PM, $49
inclusive at the Sports Club/LA, 1170 22nd St. at "M" St.,
WDC Special priced validated parking in the Ritz-Carlton ($7
with validation)

***Over 45 Super-Premium Microbrew Sakes***
***6 Japanese Producers Flown in for the Festival***
***D.C.'s Top Sushi Chefs in One Room***

"Jizake" (Microbrew Sake) an expression used by the Japanese
to identify different types of super-premium Sakes:
 - -"Kunshu" - Fragrant
 - -"Sohshu" - Light and Smooth
 - -"Junshu" - Rich Flavors
 - -"Jukushu" - Aged in Barrel

6 Japanese Sake Producers are flying in 45 Jizakes
 -Microbrew Sakes for this special event! Sushi, Maki rolls,
and other Asian dishes will be sampled with the Sakes!
Current list of Restaurants participating:
 - -Kaz Sushi Bistro - come see the famous Kaz making sushi!
 - -Spices Sushi Bar    -Yanyu Restaurant
 - -Ten Penh Restaurant
TICKETS: http://www.tastedc.com or call 202-333-5588




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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:20:28 -0400
From: robin_g at ica.net
Subject: lactose in sweet stout

Hi all,

I've used around 1 lb in a 5.25us gallon batch. It provides body more than
sweetness as lactose isn't really very sweet at all.

Robin



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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:36:26 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: : grain mill roller speed


From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>

>With the diameters and surface finish range of most homemade rollers a
 generally acceptable surface speed range would be 8 to 13 surface feet
 per minute. As diameters change surface speeds change even though
rpm stays the same.

Your logic is impeccable but just how or where did you come up with those
numbers?

That is a range of 30 to 50 RPM for a 1.5" roller.

js

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
Home Page:Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf







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Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:55:00 -0500
From: "Matthew T. Litchfield"<mattl at lgai.com>
Subject: Selling on the Internet

I just joined the list today. :)

Does anyone know where I can find the legal information I need
in order to sell my homemade beer and wine on the Internet?  I've
heard that FedEx and UPS have services that check the recipient's
ID for age verification.  I just don't know where to look for Sales 
Tax, licenses, etc... that are needed for the Internet.  I live in 
Illinois.

Thanks!

Matt




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Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:13:06 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Oxyenator - fuzzy math

Bill Rehm responded to my rant and says he has to pay $60 for the Liquid
Bread Oxyenator from his homebrew shop while I paid only $39.95.  That
may be the root of our disagreement.  No wonder it make sense for you to
go out and purchase a torch/regulator/stone from the hardware store for
$85 when you are getting hosed by your homebrew store.  Are you sure
it's not Canadian dollars?  A 50% surcharge over average retail seems
excessive.

Smart shoppers pay $39.95 for the Oxyenator from Hearts
http://heartshomebrew.com (look under CO2 equipment) You can buy a torch
separately for $13.82 at http://www.robertstool.com/bernzomatic.htm
(I'll bet it's even cheaper at Lowes or Home Depot).  All of this totals
up to $53.77 plus shipping (but did you really need that torch?).

Frankly, I don't care how people spend there time and money.  I just
want to point out that Bruce did not get as good a deal as he said he
did AND he bypassed supporting a fellow homebrewer's cottage business
that appears to provide a better value than the deal he got.
Don Lake








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