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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Polder type thermometers ("RJ")
  Fermentation Vessels great debate (Gary M Chumney)
  Brewing Courses ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  RIMS ("2brewers4u")
  Country Wine books, ball valves, oxygen doo-dads ("elvira toews")
  what's a billycart? ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  raising my efficiency (Jeffrey Senn)
  Re: peristaltic pumps ("RJ")
  Re: Low efficiency blues ("RJ")
  Digital Temperature Controllers (Chad Clancy)
  Ball Valve Cleaning ("Dennis Collins")
  RE: Oxygenation via hydrogen peroxide (Brian Lundeen)
  Old Book Source ("Eric Ahrendt")
  Anyone try the ShurFlo pump? ("2brewers4u")


* 
* 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:49:08 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Polder type thermometers


"Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net> wrote:

"Jim Clement asked about experiences with the Polder type thermometers.  I
have one and use it because of its alarm feature and timer. However, I am
very careful that only the tip gets wet.  If the junction of the probe and
the braided wire gets wet, the probe will start to "wander" off in
temperature.  I tried to seal the junction with a food grade silicon sealant
but that doesn't work.  I have had limited success at drying it out by
putting he probe in the oven and watching the readout until it starts to
make sense.

A few years ago, there was quite a discussion in the HBD about this.  I
recommend you search the archives.  I seem to remember that some people
tried to cover the braid and junction with Teflon shrink tubing but that
fails after a time.  I don't think anyone came up with a better solution."

Try getting yourself some small diameter copper tubing and sealing the
immersion end with 100% tin solder.  Insert the probe (braid and all) into
this... and calibrate using a pot of Boiling water.   If you like the setup,
you can make it more permanent by using silicone caulking or 5-minute epoxy
at the hand-end.





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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:23:01 -0400
From: Gary M Chumney <garychumney at juno.com>
Subject: Fermentation Vessels great debate

	After reading the posts about the great h/w debate and following the
discussions; I have observed the following in my 6.5 gallon carboy.  The
circulation pattern flows from the lowest point of the carboy which
happens to be a circular pattern just inside the bottom of the carboy
approximately 1 1/2 inch from the outer wall.   This circular pattern
would indicate that this is where most of the rising carbon dioxide is
coming from.    Watching this pattern from the past three beers that I
have made indicate to me there is something to the cc type fermenter
having an advantage over not only a carboy but also a corny keg.   Having
watched the activity with great interest since the beginning of the
discussion I  have formed the following conclusions.  
	  The circular pattern from the carboy will leave areas in the middle of
the wort to slowly be moved by the currents of the yeast once the very
active fermentation is over.  The Corny keg will inprove this action
somewhat as most of the activity will come from the lowest portion of the
fermenter, but it is a gradual slope that bottoms out rapidly.  A carboy
that is inverted with the Fermentap system would be better as it has an
area that will concentrate the yeast, but it also suffers from the
gradual slope of the shoulders.  A conical fermenter has a large surface
area on top that allows more of the wort to be exposed to air (read
oxygen) as compared to the other systems.  A conical has the slope of the
cone that allows the yeast to concentrate in the bottom of the neck.  At
this point the yeast activity causes a strong upward current in a smaller
area, which in turns causes a higher rate of wort flow through out the
fermenter.  A faster liquid flow through out the fermenter will expose 
more of the sugars to the active yeast in a shorter amount of time. This
would mean  faster growth of the yeast, shorter lag times and faster
fermentation of the wort into beer.  The shallow wide fermentation
vessels could have a fast and good fermentation if there is some type of
a depth change in the center of the fermentation vessel but to be
practical I really don't see the advantage to them other than the larger
surface area exposed to air to increase the uptake of oxygen in the
beginning of fermentation.
	Remember that it is just my observations that are in place here and I
have used different types of fermenters but now I only have a choice
between the carboy or a plastic bucket.
	
Gary Chumney


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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:22:26 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Brewing Courses

Hi,
  I've just passed my 7 year annivesary at Intel, so I'm now eligible for a
2-month paid sabbatical.  I'm thinking about taking a brewing course during
that time, so I was wondering what different brewing school were around.
Being from Sacramento, CA, I know UC, Davis has an extensive course, but
it's longer than 2 months.  I also know there's one in Woodland, CA, but I
haven't been able to track it down yet.  I also know of Siebel in Chicago,
but I'm not sure I want to go there during the summer, nor winter.  What
other courses are offered around the country?  I've also seen some adverts
in the brewing magazines about 3 week courses in England.  Has anyone taken
one of those?
Thanks,
Nils Hedglin



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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:11:04 -0500
From: "2brewers4u" <2brewers4u at home.com>
Subject: RIMS

I have been spending a lot of time creating a RIMS website.  The
"do-it-yourselfer" site is nearly complete.  I have added sources for parts
and diagrams.  Just wondering....is there any folks that would like to see
this type of web site????



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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:05:31 -0500
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1 at home.com>
Subject: Country Wine books, ball valves, oxygen doo-dads

For country wine culture, the Foxfire collection is priceless.  I read it
aloud to myself with my best attempt at a Virginia mountain accent until I
am too helpless with laughter to continue.  "...jest fer medicinal purposes,
of course..."

I have always wondered about what people were doing about sanitizing the
drain valves on their CC fermenters.  As Glen mentioned, a 3-way ball valve
is probably the best approach, and he is right they cost a lot extra.  Jay's
idea about drilling a hole or two to allow the flushing of the cavity is
commercial practice for biotech industry sterilizable ball valves, and doing
it yourself is probably the only way to get one for under $800.

The standard for sanitary valving is a diaphragm valve.  Also yours for a
mere $500.  The more "industrial" versions are cheaper, and are usually in
the configuration known as a pinch valve, which is essentially a piece of
hose with a clamp on it.  I wonder why more homebrewers don't just use that.

Todd's "oxygen filter" wouldn't be a flow restrictor, would it?  Apparently
shutting off a high flow of oxygen suddenly is like water hammer, but with
burning metal parts; some shock wave phenomenon, I suppose.  Leads me to
think that a safety-conscious supplier might have just designed in a maximum
safe flow rate.

Cheers, back at my own email soon,
Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca




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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:14:40 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: what's a billycart?

what's a billycart?
that's strine for go-cart or soapbox, an unmotorised home built 4-wheeler!
If I win I'll send you 2 bottles of my BB 2001 CAP, howzat for a deal!!!!

Thomas (ruelps)



At 12:12  15/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:02:41 -0400
>From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
>Subject: International Brewing
>
>Cherio!
>
>to all the rabble rouser's down under, here is an off topic question for
>ya. My 2 year old daughter has a video tape produced by the Melborne
>based group "The Wiggles." On the tape a 5 or 6 year old refers to going
>on holiday and building a "billycart" with his dad. Just what exactly is
>a billycart?
>For the winning answer I will send you 2 bottles of my Big Brew 2001
>Classic American Pilsner. This beer has just dropped bright and is
>fantastic.





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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeffrey Senn <sbcabrewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: raising my efficiency

I finally got my all-grain brewing system set up.  It
consists of a sparge tank made out of a converted
igloo picnic cooler (the cylindrical kind), the sparge
arm is a cross-shaped pvc thing with small holes
drilled in it at regular intervals of a cm or so, the
mash tun is a rectangular cooler with a pvc draining
lattice with slots in it, my brew pot is a large
17-gallons or so and my propane burner is an old
outdoor cooker that's definitely adequate to boil even
10-gallon batches.  
I started brew day by preheating my mashtun with 180
degree water and emptying it.  I was using this recipe
for a stout:

7.5# british pale
8oz. crystal 60L
6oz. roasted barley

 -I heated 2gallons & 1/2qt. H20 to 175F
 -this mashed in to around 154F
 -I let the mash sit for 90minutes, stirring every 30
 -meanwhile I heated 4gallons of sparge water to 171F
 -I recirculated for ten or fifteen minutes till their
weren't chunks in the wort anymore
 -I ran off slowly for ten or fifteen minutes
 -I began the sparge, keeping the water level about 1
inch above the grain taking 45 minutes total
 -I collected around 5 and a little more gallons of
wort
 -My big brewpot reduces quickly and I was left with
around 4 gallons of wort
 -This four gallons was around my target for 5gallons -
1.044
 -I didn't dilute it at all because I didn't want to
come in under target

I've calculated my efficiency to be around 55% which
is pretty low.  I've described my equipment and
process in hope that someone can give me some pointers
to get it up.  I'm shooting for 65% at least.

I'm using medium soft water, I don't know the PH, but
will improving my water help?  I have B3 mill my grain
for me so I assume they do a good job, and it looks
okay.  My sparge does seem to "channel" a bit.  I've
noticed that when it starts to run light agitating it
a bit darkens the runoff.  Should I try using a
diferent base male like a domestic 2-row or something,
will this help at all?  

Anything that anyone can come up with will help
greatly and please - respond publicly so all can
benefit.

Jeff



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:49:09 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: peristaltic pumps

"Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com> wrote:

|"I'm looking for a peristaltic pump that does greater than 2 litres/min
|& is cheap enough. I've tried the surplus places, found one but they
|sold it the day I called. Tried the local hospitals & labs with no
|luck. I found one that is 25 years old but they wanted too much for
|it & there's no replacement parts available.

|Any good suggestions where to look would be appreciated & feel
|free to email me directly."

You might try  http://www.labx.com   They offer many new as well as used
items, some vendors sell outright, while others auction their wares and
equipment....

They also offer some of the lowest prices I've ever seen on lab glassware...




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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:02:54 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Low efficiency blues

Hop_Head at webtv.net wrote:

"I recently took the plunge into all grain brewing by building a two
tiered recirculating system.
The system uses three sanke kegs. The mash tun uses a "Sabco" false
bottom.
My efficiency numbers, I feel, are low. 55-59%. This is the same if I do
a 5 or 10 gallon batch.
I sparge slowly (at least 1 hour) I always have a significant amount of
runoff left over (3-5 gallons) after sparging to the required volume. I
don't know if this has anything to do with it or not...."

I'll answer this with a question... What do you do with the left over 3 - 5
gallons?????

My guess is that you just need to include the left over...

I generally do multi-step infusions and quite often boil 8-9 gallons to get
my final 5-1/2 gallons (that extra 1/2 gallon is generally lost to cold
break)....  I know I'll probably get flamed on this, but I could never
understand these recipes that call out 5-1/2 gallon starting point!

My boils are vigorous to say the least.  Generally 90 min. for a standard
strength brew (PS: I use a 200k BTU cajun cooker, with a flame spreader).



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chad Clancy <chadclancy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Digital Temperature Controllers

Dan Temple writes:
- --------------------------
I've been looking for a "total solution" to
fermentation/lagering/serving temperature measurement
and control, and all I could find was the usual $20
indoor/outdoor thermometer, or - neat - a $50
refrigerator controller (from e.g. St. Patrick's of
Texas). 

What I want in addition is the ability to control a
wort-warmer, to keep my Ales fermenting nicely in the
winter months, plus ability to record maximum/minimum
temps reached. 

Haven't seen anything suitable, so, I'm building my
own! Once it works, I'll post the design.. Dan 
- -------------------------

I don't know if its something Dan's looked into
already but I have been using one of the Ranco digital
electronic temperature controllers to control
refrigerator temps for my fermentation, lagering and
serving.  For the most part it does what Dan wants.
The possible exception is the recording min/max temps.
 However, it does have a user selectable differential
that allows the user to set the desired temperature
range to control cycling of the compressor.  My
experience has been that whatever range you select is
what you get.  The single-stage Ranco models can be
used in either heating or cooling modes through a
selection at the control keypad.  To use the heating
mode, one would plug in a heating device placed in the
refrigerator/freezer and set the controller
appropriately.  The two-stage Ranco models are
terrific because there are two independently
controllable relays each of which can be set to
heating or cooling mode.  With these, you can attach
the fridge into the relay programmed for cooling and
the heater into the relay for heating.  Of course when
you program it, you'll want to have a small "dead
space" in which neither the heater nor the compressor
is running.  

Another neat application for these things is to use
them for a recirculating mash setup with a coil in the
HLT (HERMES).  Morebeer.com uses this type of setup in
their SMART mashing systems.  The controller is hooked
to the pump that cycles the wort through the HLT coil
to step up temperatures. 

I bought a bunch of these (more than I needed) so now
I'm having to sell off the extras in the HBD
fleamarket.  For those interested, here are the links
to the ads for more info.  

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi  
(See the section labeled "Brewery Items for Sale").

If you can build one of these (or something better)
Dan, go ahead and go for it - I too get a lot of
satisfaction out of designing and building my own
brewing gadgets as do many others who frequent this
forum.  I don't want to dissuade you from a
potentially interesting project.  If you do go ahead
with it, please do post your design and comments on
how well it works.  I'm looking forward to it.

Chad



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:07:08 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Ball Valve Cleaning

Lately I've been reading posts on cleaning ball valves.  Take it from me,
cleaning ball valves is a pain in the a$$.

Ball valves that most homebrewers use are of two types - two piece and three
piece.  The two piece valves consist of two halves with the ball, ball
seats, and stem all put inside and then the pieces are screwed together.
They are NOT meant to be taken apart.  Granted, I know people have done
this, but the makers of the valves truly meant for them never to come apart.

The three piece design consists of three pieces (duh) with the same
components inside as the two piece, but the pieces are held together by four
tie rod bolts on the outside.  These were definitely meant to be taken
apart.  The tie rod design makes it fairly easy to do this, but it is
usually to replace the worn Teflon seats and not for regular cleaning.  BTW,
Teflon seats should last 800,000 to 1,500,000 cycles (ymmv) before they wear
out; that's a lot of beer.

For beer wort, or yeast slurry, I don't think it is necessary to take the
ball valve apart to clean it.  The portion of the valve that stuff gets
trapped in is the cavity around the ball and behind the Teflon seats.  This
area can be cleaned the same way it got dirty.  It got dirty when the ball
was in-between the full open and full closed position, allowing liquid to
get into that area, then trapping it there when the valve is in the full
open or full closed position.  Simply remove the handle of the valve and use
a wrench to turn the packing stem.  Next put very hot water (boiling
preferably) through the valve and while the boiling water is flowing, turn
the packing stem 45 degrees (instead of the full 90) in one direction, then
turn it in the other direction to the opposite 45 degree mark.  Repeat
several times while the boiling water is flowing.  This will flow boiling
water around that trapped area and wash out any nasties that are lurking
there.  After about 10-15 minutes of this, the area around the ball should
be sufficiently flushed out.  You can get sanitizer into this area the same
way.

I can hear the next comments already...."When I've taken the valve apart
there are stalactites in there and there's no way that boiling water will
wash that out!".  Well, why didn't you flush out the valve after you
finished using it?  Using the method described above should sufficiently
wash out a valve after use so that you should never have to take it apart.
If you bought a 3 piece valve so you could clean it out, try this method for
a few batches, then take it apart and see if it worked.  There's already
enough stuff to clean in homebrewing without having to take the valves apart
too.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:15:57 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Oxygenation via hydrogen peroxide

Bret Morrow writes:

> As a pharmacist and PhD pharmacologist, the idea of putting hydrogen 
> peroxide into your wort to supply oxygen for the yeast is a 
> pretty bad one.  
> Some of these yeast cells that you are 
> trying to help 
> will be damaged and killed by the oxygen. Secondly any H2O2 left in the
wort 
> will be consumed 
> by you, the drinker.

These are both worthwhile considerations in this matter, but I still think
Marc has the germ of a good idea, it's just a matter of working out the
details to do it in a safe manner and, also important, seeing if it is cost
effective.

Here are some of the questions I would like to see someone with a chemistry
background answer:

I don't think I want to work with pure hydrogen peroxide (if I can even buy
it) nor would I want to use the weak solutions we use for treating our
boo-boos. What would be a reasonable concentration for meeting our needs?

This ties into question 2, how much hydrogen peroxide do we need to saturate
the wort with oxygen, and what would it cost? (Yea, I know, that's two
questions, call them 2a and 2-2). It seems to me that if we put in an
appropriate amount, there should not be any problem with splitting off all
those nasty extra O's and leaving behind only water. 

This ties into question 3, how long will the decomposition process take,
given typical wort pH levels? If there is a danger to yeast during this
process, waiting until after it is finished to pitch should address that
problem. One big advantage I'm hoping to see in this is that it will offer a
significant time saving over blowing air in with my little aquarium pump.
(Sorry, I'm not comfortable having an oxygen tank in my house. I just won't
go that route).

This ties into question 4 (I'm just having too much fun with this now to
stop), how much heat will this process generate? There's no time saving
advantage if you have to spend additional time cooling the wort to
compensate for the heat introduced with the oxygen.

If someone can provide us with answers to these questions, then we just have
to wait for Marc to try it and report back to us. 

On a totally separate topic, can someone please let me know when the
fermenter geometry debate pushes the Clinitest debate out of first place on
the Official HBD Top 10 Contentious Topics list? I want to make sure I
salute the occasion in an appropriate manner. ;-)

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:56:37 -0400
From: "Eric Ahrendt" <rock67 at peoplepc.com>
Subject: Old Book Source

Not sure how many HBD'ers are familiar with this resource so I thought I'd
mention it. www.alibris.com is an online reseller of used books. I think it
is more of a cooperative or consignment store than it is a big warehouse
full of mouldy books. In any event, most of the books mentioned here lately
can be found there.

All available copies of a title are described in detail, allowing you to
spend as your budget allows. You will almost certainly pay more than you
would at a flea market, but you might spend a lifetime looking for a
particular title otherwise. Old books. Just what I need....another hobby.

Eric Ahrendt
Oak and Iron Brewery
"Where the hops are finally growing."
Fremont, OH, USA



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:11:10 -0500
From: "2brewers4u" <2brewers4u at home.com>
Subject: Anyone try the ShurFlo pump?

I have tried several pumps. Look, not to be harsh, spend the time and go to
movingbrews.com. This guy has all of the answers.  Give him your situation,
he has a solution.  I have a march pump, no problems now.  Movingbrews was a
tremendous help.  Trust me, I have spent twice as much $$$$ trying to do
things with no data to back up my actions....live and learn I guess.



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