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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Temperature unevenness in mash ("Stuart Strand")
  Which beginner kit? ("Tray Bourgoyne")
  1/2" tri clover (Steve Funk)
  calories (2nd try) (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Dry Yeast ("RJ")
  calories ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Sanitary tube fittings, 1/2" size ("Bob Sutton")
  Re: Measuring Acid Additions (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Calories in beer (Jeff Renner)
  Growing hops / Japanese Beetles / Heating cereal mash ("Mark Kellums")
  Re: Heating without Scorching ("Anders Lundquist")
  pumping into bottom of kettle (Ed Jones)
  Sanitary tube fittings ("Sean Richens")


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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:28:43 -0700
From: "Stuart Strand" <sstrand at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Temperature unevenness in mash

Hi --

I am using a fully screened 12 gal SS kettle as a mash tun with HERMS for
temperature control.  Hot wort is recirculated to the mash with a copper tub
manifold with holes.  I never have a problem with  stuck recirculation.  The
kettle is insulated with a layer of foil insulation.  I find that there is
about a 8-10 deg F temperature gradient in the mash that I cannot get rid of
by running the recirc pump.  The top is always hot, the bottom always cool.
Manual mixing helps for a while, but the gradient always returns.  The
manifold makes mixing problematic.  Any suggestions?

  = Stuart =


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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:51:56 -0500
From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tbourgoy at toast.net>
Subject: Which beginner kit?

Hello all,
Which kit should I get to do my first brew?
I have read on the about.com board that the midwest intermediate kit is a
good one to start with.
Any and all advice appreciated!

Tray



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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:05:05 -0700
From: Steve Funk <stevefunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: 1/2" tri clover

Rob Dewhirst asked about a 1/2" tri clover-style fitting from
McMaster-Carr.  I ordered one several months ago.  Try looking up p/n
45195k44 & 45195k61.  I had a welding guru tig them for me.  NAYY. Hope
this helps.
Cheers,
Steve
'To brew beer is benevolent to drink it is devine'




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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:13:03 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: calories (2nd try)

Boy, is that irritating when you read something you posted to the HBD and 
see a typo that totally confuses everything. Here's what I meant to say in 
Saturday's HBD:

I remember seeing a calorie chart in Zymurgy quite awhile back. One
thing I noticed was that two beers with the same starting gravity but 
different ending gravities would end up with different calorie contents.

This is puzzling to me. Since energy can be neither created nor
destroyed, and since the original gravity is the same for both beers
(same potential energy), you would (or at least I would) think that they
would have the same calorie content, regardless of ending gravity. A
lower final gravity would mean more calories from alcohol and less from
unfermented sugars & dextrins, and vice-versa.
Can anyone explain why this is not the case?



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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:46:43 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Dry Yeast

Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> writes:

"While I have't yet had a chance to brew with the Saflager 23 I recently
ordered from Paddock Wood...  However, what has made me even happier than
the prospect of decent dry lager yeasts is the "discovery" of a very nice
dry weizen yeast.  Not being able to brew all-grain in the past few months,
I've turned to the Brewhouse kits, and recently made their wheat beer.  It
contains an 11gr silver pack labelled simply "Safbrew T-58", and it makes a
very authentic tasting hefe - lots of bannana and clove.  I haven't seen it
available in retail around
here, but my favourite mail-order shop informs me it is availble through
them."

    Again, another fine example of the dry yeasts being offered by DCLyeast
(UK). They have a number of other yeasts available (in commercial sizes
only, 500 grams & up)...

 Safale Series:
 S-04
 A well-known, commercial English ale yeast, selected for its fast
 fermentation character and its ability to form a very compact sediment at
 the end of the fermentation, helping to improve beer clarity. This yeast is
 recommended for the production of a large range of ale beers and is
 specially well adapted to cask-conditioned ales and fermentation in
 cylindro-conical tanks. High sedimentation. Recommended temperature range:
 18C-24C (64F-75F). Recommended pitching rate: 50 g/hl to 80 g/hl.

 K-97
A typical German ale yeast, selected for its ability to form a large firm
head when fermenting. This is a top cropping ale yeast specially recommended
for the production of wheat/weizen beers. It is most suitable for the
production of a wide range of ale beers and is well adapted to open tanks.
Low sedimentation. Recommended temperature range: 18C-24C (64F-75F).
Recommended pitching rate: 50 g/hl to 80 g/hl.

Safbrew Series:
T-58
A speciality yeast selected for its estery somewhat peppery and spicy
flavour development. Low sedimentation. Recommended fermentation
temperature: 18C-24C (64F-75F).  Recommended pitching rate: 50 g/hl to 80
g/hl. This yeast is also recommended for secondary fermentations in bottles.
Recommended pitching rate: 2.5 g/hl to 5 g/hl.

 S-33
A very popular general purpose yeast, displaying both very robust
conservation and consistent performance. This yeast produces superb flavour
profiles and can be used for the production of lager type or ale beers.
Medium sedimentation. Recommended temperature range: 15C-24C (59F-75F).
Recommended
pitching rate: 50 g/hl to 80 g/hl.

Saflager Series:
S-189
Originating from a famous German university, this strain is probably the
most popular lager yeast world-wide and is used by a large number of
commercial breweries. Selected for its fairly neutral flavour development,
this yeast features high sedimentation and is recommended for a wide range
of lager and pilsen beers. High sedimentation. Recommended temperature
range: 9C-15C (ideally 12C) (48F-59F, ideally 54F). Recommended pitching
rate at 12C-15C: 80 to 120 g/hl (equivalent to 8 to 12 millions/ml wort).
For a pitching temperature below 12C (54F), increase the pitching rate
accordingly, up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9C (equivalent to 20 to 30 million
viable cells/ml wort).

S-23
This bottom fermenting yeast is widely used by Western European commercial
breweries. This yeast develops the best of its fruity and estery lager notes
when fermented at low temperatures 9C-15C (48F-59F) yet producing very good
lager and pilsener beers at higher temperatures (15C-21C). Recommended
temperature range: 9C-15C (ideally 12C) (48F-59F, ideally 54F). Recommended
pitching rate at 12C-15C (54F-59F): 80 to 120 g/hl (equivalent to 8 to 12
millions/ml wort). For a pitching temperature below 12C (54F), increase the
pitching rate accordingly, up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9C (equivalent to 20 to
30 million viable cells/ml
wort).

This info was absconded directly from their web-site... I've used both the
S-04 English Ale Yeast and the S-23 European Lager Yeasts with better than
expected results...

Would recommend the S-04 for any english ale, such as Brown Ales & Porters,
Bitters; American Amber/Reds or any other cask-conditioned ales.   It really
lives up to fast fermatation and sedimentation, indicated above.

The S-23 fits well within the spectrum of Koelsch (although less winey),
Cream Ales, Steam Beers and CAP... ferments very well at 52F.

Ciao



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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:21:57 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: calories

Here's what I remember, and I'd be happy if someone could pump in the
"real" numbers.

I seem to recall that both carbohydrates and proteins give you 18
calories per gram, and fats 35.
Alcohol is an odd one at 27.

Calculating the "alcoholic calories" is an easy match, but then there is
the so called "dextrin limit".

This is the chunk of OG that never gets gobbled by the yeast (and is
expressed in the FG).

Now what caloric value is there in the gook that's left over in solution
that the yeast don't use?

In other words, what can we metabolise that the yeast can't?

I think the answer is "nobody knows".

I think about a quarter to a third of this stuff falls under the
category of protein/ fat mix, and the rest is "dextrins" (complex
carbohydrates).

I've never read anywhere how accessable these are to us (things that
neither the enzymatic system of the grain (in the mash) nor the yeast
can break down).

Guessing that we probably weren't much better at it than the yeast, I
puinished myself some years back by combining a lager and a stout,
boiling off the alcohol, and boiling it to a concentration that was
equivalent to a standardised way for testing if one has a particular
enzyme working in the gut. (If you check the archives, the topic at the
time was diabetes and beer)

Basically you fast over night, chug-a-lug the mix, and measure your
blood sugar before and at 15 minute intervals after drinking.

The answer, then, is that your blood sugar goes up if you can break down
the stuff, and not if you can't..

To my surprise, mine shot up like a rocket.... in other words we CAN
break down dextrins and utllise tham as glucose, and hence "calories".

Since I've never found the information on what food value the dextrins
actually have, it is either a well kept secret, or every other measure
of the calories in beer is just plane wrong (sorry folks!) and they are
guessing.

In other words a beer that finishes at 1010 has an equivalent of
anywhere from 0 to 2 and a half percent blend of stuff that can have a
caloric value of 18 calories per gram (probably most of it) and 35
(maybe as high as 1/5 th).

If somebody really DOES have this information, I'd really like to hear
it..... otherwise I'd say that anytime somebody is telling you the
caloric value of a beer, they are (inadvertently or not) pulling your
leg..... 'cause I really don't think breweries are stuffing people into
calorimeters and feeding them different "test beers".

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:53:14 -0400
From: "Bob Sutton" <Bob at homebrew.com>
Subject: Re: Sanitary tube fittings, 1/2" size

Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu> asked about suppliers for
1/2 inch sanitary tube fittings...

Tri-clover connections are available down to 1/2 inch. Ladish produces
Tri-clamp.

http://www.tri-clover.com/products/fittings/Techinfo.htm


McMaster-Carr is one source (search on "tri-clamp").

http://www.mcmaster.com/


Sani-tech offers tri-clamp type connectors to 1/4 inch...

http://www.sani-techcanada.com/silicone/san-tech/p30-31/page30-31.html


Cheers,
Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Upstate South Carolina

Yesterdays' Technology Today



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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:51:09 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Measuring Acid Additions

Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>  wrote:

>Makes me wonder what markings an imperial syringe has. Ours measure
>millilitres (cubic centimetres).

Thank goodness we have at least a little sense in this country. 
Syringes are all in ml's or cc's and have been as long as I can 
remember.

They were probably drams (0.125 fl. oz., or 3.7 ml) before that. 
That was when they were ground glass and needles were reused many 
times, and only occasionally resharpened.  I remember well getting 
injections with dull needles.  They hurt!

A teaspoon here is defined as 5 ml, and a tablespoon is 15 ml.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:35:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Calories in beer

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> writes:

>I remember seeing a calorie chart in Zymurgy quite awhile back. One
>thing I noticed was that two beers with the same starting gravity could
>gravities.
>This is puzzling to me. Since energy can be neither created nor
>destroyed, and since the original gravity is the same for both beers
>(same potential energy), you would (or at least I would) think that they
>would have the same calorie content, regardless of ending gravity. A
>lower final gravity would mean more calories from alcohol and less from
>unfermented sugars & dextrins, and vice-versa.
>Can anyone explain why this is not the case?

Even ex science teachers like me are pleased when students come up 
with the wrong answers for the right reasons.  It shows you're 
thinking.  ;-)

What you are forgetting is that fermentation is not 100% efficient, 
so the calories in the wort don't all end up in the beer.  Probably 
most of the energy (calorie) difference is given off as heat.

Many of the wort calories are converted into new yeast cells (which 
is, after all, the reason that yeast ferments), virtually all of the 
yeast is removed from the beer.  Yeast multiplication is over before 
fermentation ceases, but I suspect that a more fermentable wort may 
have produced more yeast cells and the end than a less fermentable 
one of the same starting gravity.

I'm undecided about whether or not CO2 represents energy (calorie) 
loss or not.  Intuitively it seems it would.  There are no usable 
calories in CO2, but that isn't the same as calories in an energy 
balance.  So I will pose this question for someone who understands 
the thermodynamics of biological systems better than I.

There may also be some other losses I've overlooked.

So the more fermentable wort converts more sugar into alcohol, and 
produces more  heat and maybe more yeast (and more CO2, which may be 
an energy loss).

Hope this makes it clear.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:18:18 -0500
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Growing hops / Japanese Beetles / Heating cereal mash

I learned a valuable lesson last season while attempting to eliminate the
spider mites infesting my hop garden. If you apply Malathion, Diazinon, or
insecticidal oil when it's really hot and humid out you'll actually make the
problem worse! I was really starting to get worried. Some of the my Ultras
were starting to be defoliated. I finally had to say to hell with the chance
of incurring mildew and use the hose to knock off and drown the mites. I
hosed down the plants everyday for about two weeks. Especially the underside
of the leaves. It worked! I had a bumper crop of hops last year and no
mildew. Probably just lucky.

This season I hadn't noticed anything other than some leafhoppers that I've
been keeping at bay by spraying them off with the hose.......that is until a
few days ago. Japanese Beetles! Practically swarms of them! They're eating
the ivy on the house, the Hibiscus, the Crabapple tree, and especially my
hops!  I had to break out the Malathion again. It only takes a fairly small
dose to kill them, 1 tsp per gallon of water, but the problem is there are
just to many and they keep coming back. Hosing them off works somewhat also
but I have to go to work at some point ( I'm on vacation ) and I was afraid
by the time I got home my plants would be skeletons. I had to find something
with some residual killing power. Yesterday I dusted all of my hops and
other affected plants with Permethrin. As of this morning no sign of any
beetles. I just hope it works long enough until the beetle phase passes.

According to most of the web sites I checked out on Permethrin it's fairly
non toxic to mammals ( whatever that really means ) but deadly for bugs.

I should also mention, as Sean found out and I found out last season, if
your not careful while using insecticides and oils you can burn your hop
plants including the hops on them.

*****************************

Something I've done in making some past CAPs was to pressure cook the cereal
mash instead of boiling and stirring on the stove. From memory I'd say it
was 15 pounds for 15 minutes. It worked very well and of course there's no
scorching. But nowadays I just use the flakes because it's easier.

Hope this helps

Mark Kellums
Decatur Illinois



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Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 22:47:53 +0200
From: "Anders Lundquist" <alun at nada.kth.se>
Subject: Re: Heating without Scorching

Jeff Renner wrote:

> [My question on the usage of a trivet to avoid scorching snipped.]
> 
> Here's my take on it.  You get mostly radiant heat that way, and it 
> is more diffused, so there are fewer hot spots.  Those damn electric 
> elements (I really do need to get a gas stove) in contact with the 
> relatively thin bottom of my ss stock pot result in some really hot 
> spots.  As a matter of fact, I've been known to scorch a spiral 
> pattern on the inside exactly matching the electric element.

Oh dear, I see why you feel the need to diffuse the heat then...

That seems an odd design though. All the electric heat plates I've
seen around here are effectively flat circles with an indentation
in the middle. (I'm not sure what it's doing there, but I guess it
might prevent hot spot formation there due to it being furthest from
outside cooling.) There is a pattern on the surface, but presumably
it's much too faint to have any noticable effect on heat distribution.
(Spiral or concentric circles, I can't tell, one mm or less between
grooves, and miniscule depth.)

The standard recommendation for efficient use is to use flat bottomed
pots that fit snuggly on the plate. It makes sense and seems to work,
at least with decently thick bottomed pots.

Of course, you still have to stir a lot to get even heat distribution
in the contents, especially with thick mashes.

> Reducing the power still has the elements in direct contact with the 
> stove pot and hot and cold spots.  I like the more diffuse heat I get 
> with the wire trivet.

Yes, in your circumstances it seems a good thing to do (if somewhat
wasteful in energy), assuming the element doesn't overheat. It just
never occured to me that you could get such extreme heat distribution.

Anders




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Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 19:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: pumping into bottom of kettle

I'm trying to layout the plumbing for a new brewing setup in my basement.
Do the mag-drive pumps from movingbrews.com have enough oooomph to pump
wort out of my lauter tun and into the BOTTOM VALVE of my 1/2 bbl kettle?
If so, this will keep me from having to flop a hose over the side when
sparging and means I can use a single hose with quick disconnect for in
or out flow to/from the kettle. Any advice is appreciated.

- -- 
Ed Jones

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:47:51 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Sanitary tube fittings

For Rob Dewhirst:

Swagelok have recently bought out Jensen, one of the big manufacturers of
sanitary fittings.  They have an outlet just about everywhere.  I'm sure a
visit to their website or a phone call will turn up your local rep.

Now, they're not exactly a low-cost supplier, either, but you won't be
waiting 6 weeks for delivery.

I tried our local Yellow Pages for "dairy equipment" or "welding" and
similar headings, and couldn't find the companies that I get sanitary
fittings from at work.   Best of luck!

Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca




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