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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Mash Temp/Thickness Vs. Fermentability ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Fermenter 'geometry' ... pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Freezer Conversion ("D. Schultz")
  Krausening ("Colby Fry")
  Pump. . . ("Galloway")
  honey in beer (Alan McKay)
  mmmmm, fruit mead ... (Alan McKay)
  UPS Shipping of Alcoholic beverages ("Frank J. Russo")
  Re: Evaporation Rate (Demonick)
  Winter Welcome Ale (Greg Remake)
  Gas Filtration/Malt Descriptions (Richard Foote)
  You Knew This Was Coming--Freezer Conversion Questions (Richard Foote)
  Thermometer Issues Redux ("Jeff Tonole")
  transgender hops ("Karen Ekstrom & Gunnar Emilsson")


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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:14:55 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Mash Temp/Thickness Vs. Fermentability

Peter Fantasia reposts the tabular data in different units, but ...
the temps quoted in M&BS are 140F, 150F, and 155F (not 154F).

Temps are close but the grist thicknesses aren't right.  The original
spec is in grist weight  per 100 units of water (67, 39, 29) which
relates to about   <22, 13, and 9.6>  oz/qt
and not 
>                                            39 oz/qt.     23 oz/qt      17

For US HBers the more familiar measure of about
  < 0.73, 1.23, and 1.67> qt/lb should be compared.

In other words the '67' thickness mash is extremely thick.
The 39 mash is very typical and the 29 mash is pretty far
on the thin end for an ale mash.

Thanks for John Schnupp for re-typesetting the table.
 -S




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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:04:29 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fermenter 'geometry' ... pH

Jeff Renner asks the obvious question ....

> The only remarkable differences I see are in pH; the half filled
> corney had lower pH than the other two at the middle of fermentation:
> ><4.070, 4.068, 4.009>.
>
> and the three were more or less equally separated in pH at the end:
>>pH readings were < 4.057, 4.028, 3.998 >.

> Any ideas why?

My WAG is the half filled corny fermented out a tiny bit faster and harder.
It appeared that way, but no supporting data exists.  Why ? I can't say.
I didn't expect it.

>Was it that when you topped all three with CO2, it
> had more CO2 to dissolve as carbonic acid?  That would seem to have
> only a transient effect once fermentation took over.

Ant Hayes speculated the same in an offline note.  I don't think this
explanation is compelling.  We'd expect the CO2 is 'seeking' equilibrium
with the 1atm of CO2 in the headspace.  CO2 exceeds the partial pressure
1atm CO2 in the head thru most of fermentation.   I'd expect the half filled
larger relatively larger surface area fermenter to approach equilibrium
faster (less CO2, higher pH).  That wasn't the case.  The CO2 might reduce
initial pH and help fermentation (but the CO2 itself hurts) but this is
clutching at straws.  Your Fats Waller quote is  perhaps best explanation of
this small pH difference.

Generally yeast produce organic acids (and carbonic) which drop the pH as
the fermentation proceeds. It's a nice parameter to measure because it's
quick and takes only a few ml.  I have a NIST traceable hydrometer that's
about 30 inches long and about a liter and a lot of nuisance degassing the
beer to use properly.  pH is really is a fine way to track your
fermentations.

The pH range extrema in these three samples varied from (4.070 to 3.998) and
represents hydronium ion concentration of  85.1uMol to 100.5 uMol. or about
a 15microMolar difference. That's pretty small.  Moleson vs Michelob have
more that 10 times the pH difference as beers from my experiment.  Each
yeast cell (assuming nominal final cell counts) cell would need to generate
about one extra ion for every 25000  sugar molecules fermented to account
for this difference.

The difference is interesting, probably has a cause (not just random
fluctuation or measurement error).  You'd need more experiments to hone in
on the cause.   If you'd like to declare that half-filled corny fermenters
are marginally superior to carboys and filled cornies I've nothing to refute
it.

 -Steve





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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:55:55 -0700
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz at qwest.net>
Subject: Freezer Conversion

Yee Haw! That is one sweet freezer conversion. Bob, will your buddy be able
to keep those pictures up on that site? If not, I would be glad to
permanently add them to my site.

BTW, where do I get one of those Bad Frog Handles? I'll trade a Sierra
Nevada Pale Ale and a Pilsner Urquel ceramic handle for that bad boy (or
should I say Frog?).

Burp,
 -Dan Schultz


>From: "bsmnt" <bsmntbrewr at home.com>
>Subject: One heck of a chest freezer conversion
>
>Brewers,
>
>One of our club members was inspired by Dan Shultz's web
>site on his chest freezer conversion.  <snip>



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:17:20 -0400
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Krausening

     I am getting ready to lager a doppelbock for a couple of months and the
recipe calls for it to be krausened for carbonation. I am supposed to make a
Vienna 12 Plato and add Wyeast Bavarian Lager. After 1 day I am to mix it with
the Doppelbock, bottle and Lager for a couple months. I am wondering exactly
how to do this. I've read extensively on this, but the articles are vague.
(both of dave millers books, homebrewers companion, etc...)Should I siphon the
Vienna into the bottling bucket? Should I carefully pour the Vienna into the
bucket and then add the Doppelbock? Not sure what has to take place for this
to work. Never did it before, but it seems fun. Hopefully someone knows what I
am talking about. Also, if anyone has seen any articles or sections of books
that cover this in full, let me know. The recipe that I am using comes from
the "Secrets from the Master Brewers" Page 142, I think. Ray McNeill's
doppelbock recipe.Thank you. I appreciate any response public or personal.

Colby Fry
colbyfry at pa.net
Roxbury, Pa



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:12:13 -0400
From: "Galloway" <galloway at gtcom.net>
Subject: Pump. . .

A query for the Collective,
While looking for a faucet connection in the local Wal-Mart ( the dreaded
honey-do list. Can you feel my pain??) I saw one of those pumps that you can
attach to a hand drill. It says that the interior construction is of
stainless steel w/ a plastic impeller/blade. Can this be considered for
moving boiled wort from place to place?? Something like this could make life
a whole lot easier. Transferring AND aeration in one fell swoop, be still my
heart. The hardest part would be adapting some connections and food grade
hoses to serve as influent and effluent lines for the pump. Any suggestions
for that??

Regards,
Dave Galloway
Chattahoochee, FL



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:47:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: honey in beer


Rob Dewhirst asks about raw honey in beer.

Rob, you do not mention, but I assume your concern is preserving the
flavour and aroma of the honey, ne c'est pas?  I would personally be very,
very reluctant to use sulphites in my beer.  Yuck!  Don't do it!
What you can do if you want to presever the honey flavour and aroma is
add it to the boil as soon as you shut off the heat at the end.  Stir in 
the honey and that will be plenty of time to destroy any nasties you may 
be worried about, but will not boil off flavour nor aroma.

In fact, honey apparantly contains natural "de-nastifiers" so you could
probably just add raw honey to the secondary without further processing,
if you really wanted to.  I've heard of lots of people who do that with
no problems, though personally I use the above technique.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:53:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: mmmmm, fruit mead ...

David,

I've got lots of experience with fruit in mead (or "mel-o-mel" as it is called),
but I rarely try to measure the OG.  I think it is much more fun to estimate
the alcohol content when the mead is ready by seeing how many glasses it takes
to put you on your *ss ;-)

Usually not very many, so I estimate most of my meads (mel-o-mels) are in
the 12% to 15% by volume range.

BTW, here's how I do it :
http://www.bodensatz.com/homebrew/recipes/mead/

I made two batches of Raspberry Mead (I generally don't use the word 
"mel-o-mel" - too long and pretentious sounding) on Saturday.  I plan to
make a strawberry this coming weekend, and perhaps a blueberry soon, too.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:36:10 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: UPS Shipping of Alcoholic beverages

There has been numerous posting concerning the use of UPS and shipping beer.
I decided to go to the horses mouth and get the word.  Here is what they
told me:

Frank
ATF Home Brew Club
New Bern, NC

- -----Original Message-----
From: customer.service at ups.com [mailto:customer.service at ups.com]
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 10:00 PM
To: fjrusso at coastalnet.com
Subject: UT20010712_0000004073 Questions


Thank you for your inquiry.  UPS service for packages containing
alcoholic beverages is provided only where permitted by state
law and under certain conditions.

Alcoholic Beverages (Beer, Wine) cannot be shipped via the UPS
Customer Counter, One Time Pickup or On Call Air service.

Intrastate (within the state) transportation is allowed in the
following states:

California
Illinois
Iowa
New York
Oregon
Virginia
Wisconsin
District of Columbia
Michigan
Ohio
Rhode Island
Washington
Wyoming

Some states have enacted "reciprocity" legislation with respect
to delivery of shipments containing wine. The states listed below
have passed such legislation and UPS currently transports wine
among these states on an interstate basis:

Interstate (between states) transportation is allowed between
the following states:

California
 Nebraska
 Colorado
 New Mexico
 Idaho
 Oregon
 Illinois
 Washington
 Iowa
 Missouri
 Wisconsin

All shipments containing wine, must be labeled by the shipper
with the UPS supplied "Adult Signature Required" sticker on each
package and packaged properly.

No hard alcohol is accepted by UPS for shipment.

Please review our package guidelines at the following link:


http://www.ups.com/using/services/packaging/pkg-guide.html

If we may assist you in the future, please feel free to contact
us.

Thank you for using UPS Internet Services.

Dyana




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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:42:38 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Evaporation Rate

>Can someone give me a ballpark evaporation rate for ~ 13 gallons of
>sweet liquor using a converted 1/2 bbl keg as a boiler and a 170K BTU 
>propane burner turned up all the way?

With my 10 gallon stainless kettle on a Metal Fusion 150 BTU cajun cooker
my evaporation rate is a bit over 1 gallon per hour.  

Domenick
Seattle, WA



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:43:30 -0500
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Winter Welcome Ale

Hello all,

A retailer near my sister's home often offers old inventory at bargain 
prices.  This past weekend I gambled $3 on a four-pack of Samuel Smith's 
Winter Welcome, of the '98/'99 vintage.  In spite of the clear bottles and 
about three years of age, this beer blew me away and humbled me as a home 
brewer.  Perhaps what most impressed me was the explosive malty aroma and 
flavor, full of rich character that I am incapable of adequately 
describing.  I'm wondering how Samuel Smith brewers achieve this kind of 
awesome aroma and flavor.  I know these seasonal recipes often include some 
special spices, but I can't detect anything unusual, and this version was 
surprisingly lacking in hops character.  Perhaps someone can suggest a 
grain bill for this recipe.  Maybe a specialty crystal or toasted malt is 
the key?  Or is it the Yorkshire Squares fermentation system and the house 
yeast that are required?  Although their website explains in some detail 
the fermentation system, I didn't quite understand it and don't hope to 
emulate the process, but maybe with a similar grist I might be able to 
achieve a respectable home brewed version.  Just in case I can't, I drove 
back and bought several $15 cases to keep reminding me of the goal.

Cheers!

Greg



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:47:50 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Gas Filtration/Malt Descriptions

Brewers,

Who writes this stuff for Briess?

>I haven't, but another candidate is Briess' Extra Special Malt.  From
>http://www.briess.com/Products/es.htm :

>-0-0-0-0-0-0-
>TYPICAL ANALYTICAL
>SPECIFICATIONS:	Moisture	6.0 %
>Color*	125-135 L
>Flavor	raisins, slight chocolate

<snip>>*	The bread-like, raisiny, and slight chocolate flavors and
>aroma from Extra Special Malt are ideal for any beer style.

Like a CAP?


Gas Filtration:

I used to have one of these that I used with an aquarium pump until I wore
it out.  It was given to me.  Pricey though.  Ten for $83.00!  Check it out
at:

http://www.millipore.com/catalogue.nsf/docs/slfg05010?open&lang=en

I'm sure this URL got cut.  Copy and paste the whole thing into your
browser and go.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA





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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:59:35 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: You Knew This Was Coming--Freezer Conversion Questions

 Bob Bratcher!  You got yer ears on?  I tried a personal query to you but
got rejected--apparently address was "fatally flawed".

Bob,

Gotta have more info. on that freezer conversion.  I've been planning one
for some time.  What's with the two lids w/handles on the top?  Do they
lift off so you don't need to open the lid?  What size freezer is it?  Must
have more info... Must have more info... Must have more info...

TIA,

Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA








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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:19:48 -0400
From: "Jeff Tonole" <jefftonole at toast.net>
Subject: Thermometer Issues Redux

Thanks to Marc Sedam, Chris Hatton, Pete Czerpak, and RJ for
responding to my question about low starting gravities from
(unintentionally) low mash temps. My latest batch had the double
whammy: (1) a low mash temp of around 140F thanks to an
inaccurate thermometer, and (2) a poor grain crush from my
local homebrew supplier (my first time buying grains there).
The result -- a pale ale with an expected gravity of 1.052 came in
at 1.029!

(By the way, the Safale yeast I used fermented the wort from 1.029
to 1.006 in about 24 hours. Colored hop-water, anyone?)

A calibrated thermometer and a soon-to-be purchased grain mill
should get brewing activity back to normal at SlothBrew. Then it
will be time to look into chest freezers...

FWIW, I typically mash for 70-75 minutes (sometimes a bit longer)
and I have never tested for conversion. I try to get a handle on all
the variables (grain crush, water-to-grist ratio, mash temps, etc.) and
let the conversion take care of itself. And this experience should make
it easier to troubleshoot in the future when conversion DOESN'T
take care of itself.

Long live the HBD...

jeff tonole
SlothBrew
Adrift in the universe but currently living in Ithaca, NY



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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:58:10 -0600
From: "Karen Ekstrom & Gunnar Emilsson" <doggydave at uswest.net>
Subject: transgender hops

Hi to all, I am a long time lurker, who has benefitted greatly from the 
knowledge shared on this digest.  That said, a perplexing problem came 
up today that has me baffled.  I am hoping someone has had similar 
experiences, and can recommend a solution.

I have been growing hops for several years.  Cascade was planted around 
1993, and Hallertau, Tettnang, and Saaz were added around 1996.  Cascade 
has remained my dominant producer, yielding about 0.5 to 1 lb of dried 
hops each year, while the German hops usually yield 2 to 4 ounces each.

My wife and I grow the hops on bamboo poles lashed together that are 
about 10-15 feet high.  Each year, we trim the hops back when they come 
up in April to 2-3 primary shoots.  They usually begin flowering in 
August, and harvest time is typically around mid September.  (the 
latitude here is about 46 degrees, I have no idea where that is in 
Rennerian).

This year my hops began flowering in June!  First it was Saaz, which has 
always been the earliest of the four.  The others began flowering 
recently.  We have been experiencing strong thunderstorms in the 
northern Rocky Mountains as of late, and some of our bamboo poles have 
become loose.  Today when we went to tie them back up, I examined the 
flowers on Tettnang, and to my horror, saw that they were male!

I examined the other plants, and found that Cascade and Hallertau also 
have switched sexes and are now sporting male flowers!  Only Saaz 
remains female, producing hop cones.  Interestingly, the male plants are 
also dropping "runner" -like shoots from the upper flowering sections, 
which are absent from female Saaz.

Has any other hop growers experienced such a phenomena?  If so, does 
anyone know how to switch them back?  Should I rip 'em up this fall and 
plant new plants?  Years ago in the 70s when I was in college, I grew a 
related plant in my closet that would turn "male" when stressed from 
such factors like lack of water, but this year the hops have had a 
pretty typical growing season thus far and have always had plenty of 
water.  In fact, I would say they have had their best growing season yet 
 - I was looking forward to the potential of two harvests, which I may 
still get out of Saaz.

Anyhow, I would appreciate to hear from anyone who has had similar 
experiences.

Gunnar Emilsson
Helena, Montana



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