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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  HOPS - DOUBLE CROPS? ("jps")
  Odd temperature reading (Graham Stone)
  Crystal slowing fermentation (Graham Stone)
  Shipping Homebrew ("Houseman, David L")
  3rd Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open ("H. Dowda")
  re: Krauzening ("Dr. Pivo")
  drill pump ("Joseph Marsh")
  Re: Krausening (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Evaporation Rate ("RJ")
  Vienna Lager ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  pH measurements (Jan-Willem van Groenigen)
  freezer conversion (kingkelly)
  pH readings (MAB)


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:33:58 -0400
From: "jps" <segedy at gsinet.net>
Subject: HOPS - DOUBLE CROPS?

In #3686 Gunner talked about getting a second crop in the same year.  Is
this similar to "dead heading" flowers on ornamental plants?  If I harvest
towards the end of this month would that leave enough time for second batch?
I generally have mid Sept as first frost date.

Also this year for the first time I had a ton of caterpillars eating Hops
leaves (but nothing else in the garden).  Anyone know what they are?  I
didn't want to spray something I was going to eventually be putting into my
body so I paid the kids 5 cents each for them and probably didn't spend more
than I would have on poison.  Any ideas for alternative prevention?  This is
the third year I've been growing Hops and never had this problem before.
Did it just take three years for them to find me and am I likely to be be
spending nickels every year from now on?

Thanks in advance for responses.

John Segedy



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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:57:54 +0100
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dthomas.co.uk>
Subject: Odd temperature reading

During fermentation, we notice that the temperature of the wort rises about
1-2 C above ambient as the yeast really kicks in, generally about 24-30
hours after pitching.  This is perfectly predictable and understandable. No
problem. However, we also notice that as the wort approaches it's final
gravity (1012 in our case), the temperature of the wort is now reproducibly
about 1C BELOW ambient temperature.  This temperature difference will last
for at least 24hrs and we have noticed it with every brew we've done this
year (over 60 in all).
 
Do we deduce that the yeast is absorbing energy?

Graham Stone
www.PortchesterBrewery.co.uk

 


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:16:06 +0100
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dthomas.co.uk>
Subject: Crystal slowing fermentation

We have 2 recipes that are identical in all respects except that one is 100%
Pale Ale malt whilst the other has 5% Crystal in it.  The all Pale recipe
generally ferments to the required gravity (1012 from 1048) in 3.5 to 4
days.  However, the recipe with 5% Crystal in takes 4.5 to 5 days.
(Interestingly, we also have another recipe that has 25% Crystal in.  This
too takes 4.5 to 5 days to complete.)

Why should the addition of Crystal cause a 25% increase in fermentation
time?

Graham Stone
www.PortchesterBrewery.co.uk


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:36:11 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Shipping Homebrew

Thanks to Bill Neilson for posting this on Techtalk:


From: Bill Neilson
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject:  Shipping Homebrew

I have just discovered a great way to ship homebrew!  Anyone with a
computer, access to the internet and a LASER printer can ship via UPS
with ease and no questions asked.  Just log on to www.ups.com and
register for your free "My ups.com" account.  You just enter
the measurements of the box, the weight of the box, where it is being
shipped to, and where it is being shipped from.  UPS will generate a
shipping label and charge your credit card.  All you have to do is tape
the label on the box and drop it off at any place that handles UPS
shipping such as Mail Boxes etc. or give it to a UPS driver.  Every place
that is an authorized UPS shipper must accept the package free of charge.
Another plus is that you don't have to type in the long tracking number
to track your package(s) because your account remembers this number.
Also you will find that shipping this way is substantially cheaper than
taking it down to one of the UPS shippers as it eliminates their cut.

Cheers!

Bill Neilson
Parrott's Ferry Homebrew Club


Dave Houseman


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: 3rd Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open

We're back...

Super special for big brewers & a Just Good Beer Brew
Off.

http://www.sagecat.com/teaser2001.htm



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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:53:09 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: re: Krauzening

Colby Fry asks:


>  I am supposed to make a
> Vienna 12 Plato and add Wyeast Bavarian Lager. After 1 day I am to mix it with
> the Doppelbock, bottle and Lager for a couple months
>
I wouldn't take the "1 day" part literally. Krauzening is based on
taking at "high krauzen" (when the head has reached it's peak) whenever
that is.... might not necessarily be after one day.

Starting at a Plato 12, I would say high krauzen would be at Plato 9 or
there abouts, if you're feeling unsure and care to measure.

Traditional krauzening is between 10-15 percent of the volume.


> Should I siphon the
> Vienna into the bottling bucket? Should I carefully pour the Vienna into the
> bucket and then add the Doppelbock?
>

Don't think it makes a big difference.  Part of the krauzening "trick"
is to protect from oxidation and it does seem to make it immune.  I
regularly siphon the krauzen to a bucket (splash one), pour into a non
CO2 flushed keg (splash 2), and then siphon the "finished stuff" into it
(splash 3) and have had no trouble keeping kegs 6 months without stale
flavours. I guarantee that treating any other beer in that manner would
pretty much assure you an "early death by "old barrell" taste".

Er, that is... I SHOULD have said  "I've NEVER been able to keep a keg 6
months, but when I've been away from home for extended periods of time,
and don't continually molest my kegs, they can keep for 6 months without
my finding any stale flavours upon return".


> Never did it before, but it seems fun.
>

Immensely.  I think you'll find a lot of things happening that you "just
can't get any other way".

Dr. Pivo




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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:24:30 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: drill pump

Dave Galloway asks about drill pumps...
I had the same idea a while ago so I took one of them apart to see what I 
was dealing with. Mine has a rubber impeller but the bad news is that the 
shaft uses a greased bearing. I've removed all the grease and -degreased- it 
with alcohole but I haven't tried the thing yet. Mine would go on the outlet 
of my chiller to avoid high temps.

BTW are you any relation to Dave  Galloway of Galloway Photos?

Good brewing, Joe


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:12:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Krausening

"Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net> of Roxbury, Pa writes:

>I am getting ready to lager a doppelbock for a couple of months and the
>recipe calls for it to be krausened for carbonation. I am supposed to make a
>Vienna 12 Plato and add Wyeast Bavarian Lager. After 1 day I am to mix it with
>the Doppelbock, bottle and Lager for a couple months. I am wondering exactly
>how to do this. I've read extensively on this, but the articles are vague.
>(both of dave millers books, homebrewers companion, etc...)Should I siphon the
>Vienna into the bottling bucket? Should I carefully pour the Vienna into the
>bucket and then add the Doppelbock? Not sure what has to take place for this
>to work.

Congratulations on tackling a very traditional lager method that is 
very little used by homebrewers, or micro or even mega brewers in the 
US for that matter.

The procedure is called kraeusening because you add freshly 
fermenting beer to the aged, just when the new beer is at high 
kraeusen, or highest head.  This is typically not after one day, as 
your sources suggest, but 2-3 days.  You want to use a big active 
starter and a cold tolerant yeast.  W34/70 is suggested by Fix 
(Analysis of Brewing Techniques).  Not sure which Wyeast this is, but 
I think it may be the Bavarian.

Kraeusening is traditionally done to beer that has finished lagering. 
Do you have the space to lager in bulk and then bottle?

The idea is that lagering mellows the beer but there may still be 
some off flavors (diacetyl especially) that freshly fermenting yeast 
can remove.  I read a quote from an old German brewer who said, "Our 
young beer educates our old beer" or something like that.  It is also 
reputed to give superior carbonation and head retention, but Fix 
disputes this form his experience.

Commericial brewers, even small village brewers in Bavaria, who brew 
the same beer day after day, have sufficient consistency to know just 
how much kraeusen beer to add to get the proper carbonation.  Of 
course, they also always have some freshly fermenting beer to add to 
the lagered beer.  Since you don't have a continuous brewing cycle 
going on, brewing a Vienna fresh will work.  Actually, any lager will 
work, although I'd be inclined to brew a Dunkel since that is most 
similar to the Doppelbock in grain bill and hopping.

The procedure is this - you add enough kraeusen beer to provide just 
enough carbonation.  This is typically 10% of the volume of the 
lagered beer.  (Fix suggests 15-20% with pressure relief for the 
excess carbonation, but this doesn't work with bottles).  But this is 
imprecise.  For precision, you would need to know how much sugar is 
in the kraeusen beer.  A simple hydrometer reading will be off 
because of the lower SG of the alcohol, but not by a lot.  A 12 
degree wort will probably be down only a degree or two.  This will 
probably provide about the right carbonation since your lagered beer 
will have a good deal of dissolved CO2.  Be sure not to introduce any 
air from splashing.  You will probably get a fair amount of foaming, 
which should protect the beer.

Tun the kraeusen beer into the lager beer and then immediately bottle 
so you lose as little CO2 as possible.

Good luck.  Please post your results.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:34:18 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Evaporation Rate

Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> wrote:

>Can someone give me a ballpark evaporation rate for ~ 13 gallons of
>sweet liquor using a converted 1/2 bbl keg as a boiler and a 170K BTU
>propane burner turned up all the way?

"With my 10 gallon stainless kettle on a Metal Fusion 150 BTU cajun cooker
my evaporation rate is a bit over 1 gallon per hour."

I generally boil in the vacinity of 8-1/2 gallons of liquor to produce 5
gallons of finished wort, using a 200k BTU cajun cooker, this equates to a
24% evaporation rate.







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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:49:10 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: Vienna Lager

Hi all,
  I've recently been seduced by Nerga Modelo's dark charms & would like to
try a batch for myself.  I have a few questions about the Vienna Lager
style.  In my web research (mainly in the HBD archives), I've seen refence
to both Dos Equis & Negra Modelo being Vienna Lagers.  I have never had Dos
Equis, but I always though it was a lighter beer, not any where as dark as
Negra Modelo.  Am I mistaken in Dos Equis' color, or that they're both
Vienna Lagers, or is there some sort of wide range of style that I'm
missing?  I'm an extract with specialty grain ale brewer so far, so this
would be my 1st lager.  I am still somewhat apprehensive of all-grain (even
though I have a wonderful mash/lauter tun), but wouldn't mind trying a
partial mash.  I have read that George Fix's book is quite good, both in
content & recipes, but I'm curious to see what other recipes are out there.
Were the recipes from this year's MCAB ever published?  I was watching as a
few of them were posted to this group, but never saw any Vienna recipes.
So, any extract or partial-mash recipes?  Any suggestions on my 1st lager?
I have a refrigerator with one of the external thermostat that's able to
effectively cool down to about 38 degrees.
Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA



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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:00:23 -0700
From: Jan-Willem van Groenigen <groenigen at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: pH measurements

Jeff Renner asked:

 > The only remarkable differences I see are in pH; the half filled
 > corney had lower pH than the other two at the middle of fermentation:
 > ><4.070, 4.068, 4.009>.
 >
 > and the three were more or less equally separated in pH at the end:
 >>pH readings were < 4.057, 4.028, 3.998 >.

 > Any ideas why?

I think you are reading too much in these numbers, Jeff. Unless Steve has a 
pH meter with a much higher precision than I have ever encountered in our 
labs, only one decimal is significant in pH measurements. So, the two 
number series are 4.1, 4.1, 4.0, and 4.1, 4.0, 4.0.  At least, that is the 
way it would be reported in a scientific journal. Without replication, I 
would not base any arguments on these very small (even granted that pH is a 
logarithmic scale) differences, they can be very easily based on some 
random fluctuation. I hope I don't start a whole new discussion with this.....

JW.



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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:45:44 -0400
From: kingkelly at juno.com
Subject: freezer conversion

hey guys - i am the guy who made the freezer conversion that is being
tossed about  the last couple of days. several questions have come up
regarding the design
1- there seems to be an issue regarding the material that i covered the
unit with and how it affects the dissipation of heat necessary to keep
the unit running properly. i'm glad that was brought up because frankly i
did not that it was an issue. here are some specs regarding what i did .
maybe the fridge guy ( who has given input via a fellow club member) or
someone else can make some sense out of it. first of all the rear is not
covered at all, the unit sits in our game room at normal household
temperatures. the covering is 3/16 thick wainscotting paneling with the
grooves being about 1/8 thick and spaced about 1 in apart. this material
is glued( panel adhesive) to the freezer skin. as a test i taped two
quick read thermometers - one on back and one on the front- really well
with duct tape to see what the differential really was during cycling.
the front went from 81f to 90.7and the rear went from 82f to about 96f in
the same amount of time. i have the freezer set to 0 f and a ranco
controller set to 35f going off at 38f. the outside front feels warm to
the touch mostly from the middle to the top of unit as does the rear.
2- the freezer is a 14.8 cu ft non defrost brand new model. as of now it
is maintaining temperature very well. i'm keeping it a little colder than
i usually would because i have a caca in there that frankly is just
better cold. the things on top are not hatches but merely two trays that
i made from scrap ( it was cheaper to buy a 4x8 sheet of wainscotting 
than those weird small sizes that they sell. i can fit 6 cornies ( two
with cobra taps ) on the right and still have room for a fermentation
chamber on the left, i was only getting a 7 or 8 point temp differential
with just a 2in thick piece of polystyrene. not enough for my hefe in
secondary. so i wrapped (no glue easy to change. the whole inside ferment
chamber with styrene. got a 20 pt difference just what i wanted. will
remove the styrene for lagering at which point there is enough room for
two carboys.
 
any opinions about any of the above would be appreciated either via hbd
or personal e-mail or by phone 540-268-1270.
thanks jim kelly
south fork brewery


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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:37:42 -0400
From: MAB <mabrooks12 at yahoo.com>
Subject: pH readings

Recent posting of Steve A's "experiment" have given pH values with three
decimal place and has prompted some discussion about the possible
fermentation differences that may have caused such pH differences.  I
would like to point out (based on over fourteen years of extensive Lab
and Field experience with pH meters, and having performed over 10,000 pH
readings) that these pH numbers are extremely unrealistic.  First of
all, the pH meter is only as accurate as the Buffers used to calibrate
it, and these buffer are only accurate to TWO (2) decimal places! and
even that number is + or - .02 pH units!  Hence, the pH meter is only
accurate to two decimal places, + or - 0.02 pH units (remember
"Significant Digits") and that is for a Laboratory grade Bench top model
costing upwards of $3,000.00 (without the electrode) and calibrated
using a three point calibration.  My experience has shown that the
cheaper ($500.00+, w/o electrode) Two point calibration models are hit
or miss at the second decimal place, and this is when it is used under
laboratory conditions, thus, for field use it should be setup to
display/round off to One decimal place, as that is the what can be
measured with some degree of precision at varying temperatures and water
conditions... Less expensive pH meters are, realistically, only accurate
to One decimal place, and some of them I have used I wouldn't put a
whole lot of faith in it being accurate to the One decimal, its hit or
miss with the cheap ones....but hey, its close enough to brew with!

I have used every type of pH electrode on the market (Orion, Accumet,
Corning, in every make, Glass, Plastic, Gel filled, AgCl filled, Temp
comp. built in, Reference built in, Separate Reference etc.....) and
have come to the conclusion that they all have their pluses and minuses
and should be selected based on the type of pH meter you own and the
conditions under which they will be used.  In the field I use  use a
combination electrode with Temp. compensation built in, and it drifts in
and out of the second decimal place.  There is also the issue of how
clean the glass bulb is??  This needs to be occasionally cleaned to
prevent mineral scaling, oil build up etc...  Has the electrode been
stored properly between uses? How about long term storage?  Junction
build up? Are you calibrating and using it with the Fill Hole open?
Electrodes outputs vary between pH meters, as I have witnessed by
placing several different electrodes on different pH meters (in the
Laboratory), calibrating with the same set of Buffers, measuring the
same sample, and getting up to 0.2 - 0.3 decimal place differences.

Bottom line to this discussion is that pH meters are not as accurate as
many people would like to believe ($3,000+ laboratory grade, laboratory
maintained, laboratory used units excluded).  For all practical
purposes, Steve A's recent posting of pH's are essentially all the same
numbers .... 4.057 rounds off to 4.1, 4.028 rounds off to 4.0, and 3.998
rounds off to 4.0.  The reality of field measurements would not indicate
a significant difference in any of these numbers (4.1, 4.0,
4.0)....others may take exception to these findings but I would ask how
much Laboratory, Field, and troubleshooting experience they have with pH
meters, electrodes and performing scientific studies with water
containing numerous different constituents that can/do affect the
readings of pH meters.

Matt B.
Northern VA.



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