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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Hops In The Bottle? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Anybody Brewing in Santa Barbara Area ("Jay Wirsig")
  Re: enzyme killer (The Freemans)
  Brewing article on CNNFN.COM (Jeff Hertz)
  possible answer to coldroom question ("Scott Basil")
  Cutting stainless ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  RE: Oat Hauls (LJ Vitt)
  beers that make you sick ("Alan McKay")
  RE: zinc and esters (Brian Lundeen)
  1st time all-grain questions ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  RIMS thermocouple location (Troy Hager)


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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:04:03 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Hops In The Bottle?

Len Safhay writes, regarding wort kits :
>Cool, Phil. Is it pre-hopped? I've gotten really tired of putting >the
>damn things in a blender and trying to squeeze them into the >bottles.
>For some reason it makes some of the beer spill out and >when you drink
>it, this green stuff gets in your mouth.

Len
Sounds like you have been conducting some pretty interesting brewing
experiments. Actually squeezing hops into your bottles must make some
unusual beer.

But you will be pleased to know Len that the wort kits are pre- hopped and
that such strange endeavours are unnecessary.

What I do suggest is that a hop tea is made up with the extra three to five
litres of water that you add to the wort kit. I don't know how this compares
with your idea of squeezing them into the bottles, but it would certainly be
easier. Might also get around the problem of displaying green teeth when you
have had more than a few too many homebrews.

You haven't tried just eating the hops then drinking malt extract have you
Len?

Give me your address and I will get you on your way with a wort kit.
You'll probably never need your blender again.

Cheers
Phil





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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:04:27 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Anybody Brewing in Santa Barbara Area

Is anyone aware of a club or any brewers in the Santa Barbara California
area?




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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:44:56 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: enzyme killer

I have found that the following works well as a temperature and mash
regime on "the perfesser".  I have a separate heat exchanger on this
heat exchange system and that allows a finer control of temperature
ramps IMHO.

Strike temp is set on the CN8590 Omega PID I use the night before the
brew day.  The next morning I have 14 gallons of strike water waiting
when I go out to the brewery. (there is an automatic control similar to
a Mr Coffee machine (NAYY) to start the process before I even wake up on
brew day.)  I mash in with this preheated water at a rate of about .7-.8
quarts per pound and allow it to sit for 15-20 minutes.  During that
time I refill the HLT and ramp the water temp in the HLT to 165 degrees.

Temp changes, such as to 130 to140 to150+ are made using the heat
exchanger and small amounts of added hot water.  The water/mash ratio is
never allowed to go over about 1.125 -1.3 quarts/pound.  All the time
the mash is stirred automatically and wort is recirculated.  Once
conversion is achieved, I reset the HLT temp to 175 and do a mash out at
170.

Sparge is done with the HLT at 180 degrees.  I never turn off the heat
exchanger or wort recirc pump during sparge so the wort going to the
boiler is already at 180.  This allows the use of a smaller natural gas
burner (quieter and less likely to scorch) for boiling.

Can you kill enzymes with a too hot temp in the exchanger?  I think so.
I built "the perfesser" in his present configuration so that I avoided
that coil in the HLT.  I can still do full recirculation without leaving
a coil full of wort trapped in a too hot HLT.  By turning off the pump
to the heat exchanger, heat additions are stopped, but wort continues to
flow freely.  When additional heat is needed,  the heat exchange pump
restarts and supplies a new batch of HLT water to one side of the
Maxichiller I am using for a heat exchanger.

Hey, maybe I am wrong about all this, but it seems to work nicely.
Right now "it ain't broke, so I'm not gonna fix it".

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser'
Birmingham, AL




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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Hertz <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brewing article on CNNFN.COM

For anyone who didn't see this, there was a pretty
good article on cnnfn.com on Monday with lots of
quotes from Paul Gatza.  Here's the link to it:

http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/08/27/sbstarting/q_brewing/

Enjoy,
Jeff








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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:27:04 -0500
From: "Scott Basil" <sbasil at glasgow-ky.com>
Subject:  possible answer to coldroom question

One of my brew partners runs an hvac company, so I forwarded your question to
him.
If you live in the southeast, your humidity problems will be the hardest to
deal with.  Materials soak up humidity, and every time the door is opened you
add more.  In a house, a vapor barrier for the roof is not needed, but this is
not a house.  A complete seal is needed for a walk in cooler, and that is what
you are going for.  You will also need some specialized controls that will
allow the unit to continue to "wring" the water from the air.  Drain pan
heaters and low ambient controls on the coil, also called a freeze stat  is
needed.  And make absolutely sure that the CONDENSER COIL is spotless!  If
there is no water in the drain pan, this in itself is perplexing.  make sure
you have the correct refrigerant charge in the linesets and the subcool and
superheat are within range and the TXV is working.
This is a case where ten different people will give you ten different answers,
but you must prevent infiltration of outside air; however, without the special
controls the temperature will be the problem then...
It may be time to bite the bullet and contact an hvac technician, that likes
homebrew, and do the old homebrew barter....



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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:24:09 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Cutting stainless

I know there's been much discussion in the past regarding cutting stainless
keg tops for use in brewing.  After reading all of the methods and weighing
the pros and cons, I was more confused than when I began.  First I tried to
use a fiber-reinforced metal cutting disk on a die grinder and a metal
cutting drill bit - too slow and much burning.  Then I decided to try what I
was told to be the WORST method -  the reciprocating saw.

I've seen complaints that the reciprocating saw takes a long time, makes a
lot of noise and ruins too many blades.  Except for the noise, this was not
true in my case.  I used a 3/4 HP Craftsman reciprocating saw with a 4 or 5"
Bluemol bimetal blade (14 teeth per inch).  After drilling a lead hole with
my metal drill bit, I had the top of my keg cut off in 5 minutes.  The a
radius of cut was 2" smaller than the radius of the keg top and I only used
a single blade to make the cut - with no oil.  While the blade was destroyed
in the process, they only cost about USD$1.25 each and come cheaper per
blade if you buy a 10 pack.  It ran like a hot knife through butter (as far
as cutting metal with a hand tool is concerned ;-)  For my next keg I think
I'll use 2 blades - maybe then I I don't have to push at all!

As for the noise, I cut the keg in my basement using hearing protection
while my wife and son both took a nap on the second floor.  No one heard a
thing.  The cut requires a bit of grinding and filing to remove burs and
sharp edges, but that takes 5 minutes for a mediocre job or 10 minutes for a
good, polished edge.  Hearing and eye protection are definately a must.
Gloves are good assurance too.

So if you're mulling over the best way to cut your keg, buy, rent, borrow or
steal a reciprocating saw of at least 1/2 HP and use a 14 TPI bimetal blade.
It's cheaper and easier than finding a plasma cutter - plus you get to do
manly destructive-type stuff ;-)

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal







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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Oat Hauls

Todd asked about oat hauls-

>Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:24:11 -0700
>From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
>Subject: Oat Hulls? (And Kegging Follow-up)


Hi all,

> But what are "Brewer's cut Oat 
>Hulls"? I
>have 3/4 lb of them, and haven't been able to find any information on 
>their
>use.......

>What are Oat Hulls used for? How and when would I need them? Are there 
>any
>freshness issues I need to be concerned with? (the guy I bought this 
>U-Haul
>worth of stuff hadn't brewed since 1997....) Tks...!


I have used aot hauls when sparging wheat beers.
Everything I read about this suggest using rice hauls.
I got the oat haul idea from another homebrewer who learned about 
using oat hauls from some of the Oregon and Washington micro breweries.

I mash in a kettle then move to a gott cooler to sparge.  I add the 
oat hauls at the time of the move.

I have used about a pound of oat hauls in a 5 gal batch of weizen 
that has 66% wheat malt.

 - Leo




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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:11:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: beers that make you sick


Here's a very odd one.

A friend just called me up asking for my "expert opinion" on why he gets
sick and horribly hungover when he drinks certain beers, but not certain
others.  Of course I have any number of answers including possible 
additives and so on to the beers in question.  However, one example he 
gave me was that Molson's "Rickard's Red" makes him sick every time, and 
he gets terribly hungover even after only 2 beers, while Molson's
"Rickard's Gold" give him no such troubles.  I would be quite suprised
to find much of a difference between these two beers from the same
manufacturer.  The "Red" would be brewed with Crystal Malt for colour,
and I believe it would be more ale-brewed and the "Gold" more lager-ish.
Though of course with today's megabrewers it is questionable whether 
they really do anything differently for ales and lagers.

So what could be making my friend sick?  He says it's not a bad batch
as he has made these observations over many months.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
    "Brewers make wort.  Yeast makes beer."
               - Dave Miller
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:29:47 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: zinc and esters

Dave Houseman tries to slip one by with:

> I recently began using crushed zinc tablets in my boils.  Now 
> I haven't done
> any side-by-side testing, but these brews have had the most explosive
> fermentations I've experienced.  Even a lager where I pitched 
> lots of yeast
> but intentionally did not aerate (to reduce ester production) 

OK, this is the first I've heard of this technique. I mean, I understand the
desire to eliminate the growth phase, but how do you know you pitched enough
yeast? Did you pitch onto a yeast cake? Even then, wouldn't some growth be
required because some yeast would no longer be viable (yes, I probably used
the wrong word)? 

And how much zinc are you adding? Does it affect the final taste in any way?
Most importantly, are we setting ourselves up for a host of competitions
where BJCP's finest start scribbling "zincy" on their score sheets because
of this trend? ;-)

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:28:31 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: 1st time all-grain questions

Hi,
  I finally tried all-grain for the 1st time a few weeks ago using my new
mash/lauter tun (http://www.minibrew.com/products/prod03.html), so here goes
the questions:

Because only had a 5 gal pot, I collected two 3 gal batches of wort instead.
I used the recommended 1 qt/1 lb of grain for mashing in & it never seemed
to have the 1" of water above the grain bed like I'd always read about.  I
recirculated for about 20 minutes, but after the initial few minutes, the
wort never got any clearer.  The wort itself was pretty clear, but there was
a bunch of particulate matter that kept coming through.  It was so bad that
every few minutes, it would clog the valve, so I had to open it up a little
to clear it.  For the most part, the particulates weren't grains or hulks as
I'd recognize them.  They were more amorphous white blobs that didn't look
like soaked grains.  I tried really hard to keep to the 1 qt/5 min sparge
rate, but i think I got the 1st 3 gallons in about 20-25 minutes.  I then
switched pots to sparge into & set the 1st batch on to boil.  I must have
done something to the valve because when I came back to it, the water level
in the grain bed had drop drastically, probably down to below 25% of the
total grain bed height.  I quickly fed more water in from the hot liquor
tank, but I noticed that there was an incredible reduction in the
particulates going through the valve.  During the 1st half the sparge, I was
getting a particulate about every 2-3 seconds.  During the 2nd half, it was
about 1every 3-4 minutes.  Also, because of the initial increased flow of
the 2nd sparge, I ended up collecting the 3 gal in about 10 mins.

1) Any idea why even after recirculating for 20 mins there were still so
much particulate matter & almost draining the grain bed allowed for much
clearer sparging?  
2) What's the affect of the 2nd sparge running for only 10 mins instead of
the full half hour?

After I got the 1st batch into the carboy, I started on the 2nd one.  The
2nd wort had been sitting in a pot with the lid on while the 1st batch
boiled (about 2 hours), so it had cooled significantly, but still somewhat
warm (probably still over 100).  Without thinking about it, I pour the wort
into my 5 gal brew pot, probably severly aerating it.

3) Is aeration at this point bad, I can never remember?

Once I took the gravity of the 1st batch, I realized the grave error I had
made.  Since I split the batches, I basically now had 1st & 2nd runnings.
The 1st batch's OG was 1.082 & the 2nd's was 1.030.  The good news was that
the recipe's target was 1.055 so I almost nailed it exacly.  Everything else
went well other than not finishing up until midnight.  

Another concern I had was the evaporation rate during my boil.  I started
out with 3 gal of wort, & based on the amount of wort in the carboys & some
guesstimation, I think I ended up with less than 2 gal in each batch.  They
were supposed to end up at 2.5 gal each to make a 5 gal batch, but over an
extra gal boiled away.  I also had a similar problem with my last batch
which was supposed to be a stout, but ended up as a brown porter because I
boiled way so much wort that it got diluted when I made up the 5 gal with
water.  I've heard that a vigorous boil is good.  The flames on my burner go
higher, but I'd also heard it wasn't good for the to touch the pot.  Also,
if the burner's going at full bore, some of the support prongs that the pot
sits on start to turn red.

4) Would raising the pot with bricks to allow a higher flame make any
difference?  Should I think about building some sort of insulating box to
better funnel the heat back up towards the pot?
5) How can I still get a good boil, but not have so much wort evaporate?

Because this was kind of a "use up what I had" batch, I used a bunch of
Cooper's dry yeast packets that I had.  I put 28 grams of the yeast in the
high-gravity wort & 22 grams in the low-gravity wort.  When put then 2nd
batch in the frig, I was very pleased the 1st batch already had a vigorous
fermentation going.  But, by the next morning (about 15 hours from
pitching), the fermentation had stopped.  The only time I had such a quick
fermentation was when I put a 3 gal cider batch on the trub from the
previously mentioned 5 gal porter batch.

6) Can something ferment too fast?  What's the affect?

I racked the batches to secondary last night & again was amazed at how close
I had gotten to the recipe's SG & ABV if I averaged them.  The high-gravity
batch was at 1.030, 6.53% & the lower was at 1.002, 2.94%.  The target was
1.015 & 4.4%.  I am a bit worried about the batch that finished at 1.002.

7) Is this normal for a batch that was probably overly fermentive?

Also, the lower gravity batch also had a very strong spicy smell.  I
couldn't pinpoint it, but I don't think it was cloves.  I had used 1/2 oz of
Perle for bittering & 1/4 of Fuggles for aroma.  

8) It doesn't look like Fuggles is supposed to have a strong spice smell,
could this be a by-product of something else wrong?

Thanks a lot for wading through all this.
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA



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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:30:25 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: RIMS thermocouple location

With the RIMS thread popping up lately I have a question for you rimsers out
there. Where is your thermocouple (or any temperature sensor) located in the
loop? I have seen/read that most systems have it located right after the
heating element. On first thought, I wondered why not put it right at the
outlet of the mash tun since that is where we are trying to control the
temp, but with more thought I realize that we are actually trying to control
the temp of the entire liquid portion of our mash because that is were all
the enzymes are located and where all the work gets done. Therefore, I
suppose a sensor at the heater outlet would make more sense because you
would want to bring the mash liquid up to the desired temp and measure it as
it came out of the heater - otherwise risk over-heating with the element to
raise the temp at some other location in the loop.

BTW, has anyone measured the difference of the temperature before and after
the heater... and is there a big difference? I know that every system would
be different in this regard, every system would loose heat at a different
rate, but I was just wondering if, because of the high rate of
recirculation, the temperature is pretty constant throughout the loop in
most cases.

Cheers,

Troy


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