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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: brewing for contests ("Mark Tumarkin")
  re: Rose Hips ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Re:  Shipping to contests (Paul Shick)
   ("Milone, Gilbert")
  A Tale of Pumpkin Ale ("Steven Parfitt")
  Brewpubs in London, Ontaro? (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Competitions and stronger beers (David Harsh)
  Cascade v. Centennial & Munich (James Davis)
  Give till it hurts... ("Jeffry D Luck")
  venturi tube advice (Greg Speiser & Cynthia Sawatzky)
  Re: Brew in contests and storing yeast (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Question about Jeff R's CAP recipe (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:07:46 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: brewing for contests

David Craft asks:
"I have a question that has been bugging me.  Do stronger beers fair better
in competition?

I had a nice Bitter place in the Southern Region with 41 points back in
April only to drop to 23 points in the AHA Nationals.  Two of the three
judges in the Nationals said the beer didn't "travel" or "age" well. They
must have known that it scored much higher in order to get in to the
Nationals.  This was a typical strength Bitter and was quite tasty. It was
bottle conditioned and stored in a cool closet in the dark until going to
California."

Many people feel that beers that push the envelope (bigger, or hoppier, or...)
tend to do better in competition. Unfortunately, this is can be true. For one
thing, as palate fatigue sets in, it takes more flavor to make an impact.
Experienced judges try to take this into consideration, but it is a factor.
Ideally, you'd try to stay within the style guidelines, but at the higher end.
Many people, though, do enter beers that exceed the guidelines and can do
well.

However, if 2 of the 3 judges said the beer didn't "travel" or "age" well,
then that could well be a factor. First, look at the experience level of the
judges on your score sheets, there were a lot of excellent judges at the
Nationals and they could very well be right on target.

Some styles of beer don't age or travel well. When was your bitter brewed?
There are several months between the 1st & 2nd rounds of the Nationals and you
may have brewed your batch well before the first round. One of the styles I
judged at the Nationals was the German Wheats. They are a particular favorite
of mine; both to drink and to brew. But they are really best drunk fresh. Many
of the beers we judged were well past their prime. It was disappointing to me
to have to give a lower score to a beer that was probably delightful in the
1st round. But as a judge, you have to score the beer in front of you, not
what it might have been several months before. It's entirely possible that
you're bitter had oxidized or lost flavor and thus the lower score.

Some styles, especially the bigger beers, don't suffer with age (or can
actually improve), so you're on the right track in planning your brews for
competition ahead of time. You might want to brew the bigger or beers ( or
brew to the high end of the style), but also keep time in mind in your brew
schedule. Brew so that your beer will be at its prime when it's judged, at
least as much as possible. With some styles, such as hefes and bitters, you
might want to brew a new batch for the competition so that you can present the
judges with a fresh beer in its prime. This is permitted (or even encouraged)
by some competitions (such as MCAB), but check the competition rules to be
safe.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:12:32 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Rose Hips

John Gubbins asks about using rose hips:
"I picked some prime rose hips and plan to brew this weekend.  I am yet
undecided on whether I will make an extract or all grain.  My question is, how
do you use them?  Do you add them to the mash or the boil?  I understand that
they should be seeded, but do the shells need to be crushed? "

I've only used rose hips once, and in a mead rather than in a beer. So I'm not
real experienced with them.... however, I would seed and crush them, and put
them in the secondary (or at knockout) rather than boil them. Otherwise, I'd
be afraid of extracting a tannic flavor from them.

The rose hip mead turned out very well, and should be much better with age (if
I can be patient enough).

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:20:37 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Re:  Shipping to contests


Hi all,

	David Craft asks about the problems of shipping beer
to contests (in repsonse to a beer that scored a 41 in the
AHA NHC First Round, then 23 in the Finals.)

	David, you're probably right that a stronger beer would 
ship a bit better, but the main difficulty here is that the NHC
Finals are held at the height of the summer.  Almost any beer will
have problems if it gets stuck in a truck or warehouse, or on 
a runway, in the heat.  It seems to me that it's not a coincidence
that the "home club" usually wins more than its share of medals in
most competitions -- their beers are generally much fresher.

	Still, there are a few things you can do to protect your
beers when shipping.  First, bottle conditioned beers have a bit
more protection from oxidation, etc., if you're careful enough
during the bottling process (avoiding aeration during racking and
keeping air in the headspace to an absolute minimum.)  Whether you
bottle condition or counter-pressure fill, avoiding O_2 is the main
concern.  Keeping shipping abuse to a minimum is quite helpful,
too.  Avoid shipping at a day when you think the beer will have a
weekend to bake in transit.  If at all possible, overnight is the
way to go.  Finally, a fresh beer has a much better shot at surviving
unscathed, but that requires that you brew with the competition in
mind (something few of us have time for.)

	A few years back, I think, Dave Miller wrote in Brewing 
Techniques about his "secret" for having his beers do well in 
competitions like the GABF, in response to a Q&A question.  He
wrote something to the effect that he just filled the bottles
from the conditioning tank or keg (with a home made CP filler,
if I recall correctly,) the night before shipping, to be sure
everything was a fresh as possible.  Might be the way to go,
if you're a kegger.

				Paul Shick
				Brewing and lurking in
					Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:18:40 -0400
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: 

Hello all, 
  I will in be in Montreal Canada and Burlington VT this weekend. I would 
like to know some good brew pubs in either place. 
Thanks, 
Gil Milone 

  


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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:41:27 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: A Tale of Pumpkin Ale

Well, I tried doing a Pumpkin Ale. It shall be interesting to see how it 
turns out. As a base I used a Porter recipe, since I wanted to try cloning 
Sinebrychoff Porter (Finland).

It was a brew session from hell...

After mashing some 20 pounds of grain for an hour, I drew off about 3 
gallons starting at 1.115OG  down to 1.095. Added 3gallons of water, hops, 
boiled for 1-1/2hours. This half would be the Sinebrychoff clone.

While this was boiling, I added six pints of home canned pumpkin and three 
pounds of 6-row to the tun. The six pints of pumpkin came from a single 12 
Pound Pumpkin. This had been baked, stripped of the skin, mashed with a big 
fork, and cooked along with a cup of brown sugar and some spices, cloves, 
Nutmeg, Allspice, ginger, etc (easy on the spices).

Koocked out the first boil into the fermenter and checked the OG before 
pitching the yeast starter(Wy1028), 1.064 I was expecting 1.074, so it was a 
little low. No problem.

Started run-off again. Stuck Sparge! Can we say Pumpkin Glue? Added 1/2lb of 
rice hulls to tun and stirred it in. Back blew throught he outlet to 
hopefully clear mash. started runoff again...yup stuck sparge. Hand scooped 
9 Gallons of mash out of tun into plastic buckets. disassembled tun. cleaned 
all lines. Straightened flattened SS false bottom. Reassembled, added 1Lb 
rice hulls on top of false bottom, reloaded mash, ...Stuck Sparge. stirred 
and added more water and finally got run-off. Took first reading 1.110. Ok 
getting somewhere. Ran off 7.5+ gallons and stopped run off at 1.035. 
Commenced boil. added hopps, second hops, Clearfloc, honey, last hops, ... 
got to end of boil and knocked out 6 gallons of wort. 1.092 OG! Guess there 
is a lot more sugar in pumpkin than I expected.

I will never do this again. Well, not for at least another year. and only 
then if it turns out special this time.

If you make a pumpkin ale, I recommend adding a pound of rice hulls to the 
bottom of the tun with the first half of your mash and stir it in well. Then 
add the rest of your mash and finally the pumpkin. Thinning the mash and not 
disturbing the hulls seems to help with run off.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in London, Ontaro?

   So next Saturday I will be risking the multiple hour delays at the
border to head out to London, Ontario for a crew race.  Since it will be a
very long day, I'd like to finish it with a nice dinner at a brewpub.
Unfortunately, pubcrawler only lists two places in London (one defunct,
the other a tavern/college hangout).  Does anybody have any
reccomendations?
       -Travis





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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:11:26 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Competitions and stronger beers

David Craft <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com> brings up a common question:
> Do stronger beers fair better in competition?
 
> a nice Bitter place in the Southern Region with 41 points ...
> 23 points in the AHA Nationals.  
> (judges said) the beer didn't "travel" or "age" well. 

A few issues are important.
1.  Flavor profile changes with time, even in a well stored bottle. 
Bitterness fades, overall flavor profile changes, etc.  The two most
remarkable examples of this I've experienced are smoke beers and
witbiers.  In both cases, the flavor intensity (of smoke and coriander,
respectively) seems to drop by 50% every couple of months.  I think
that's one of the appeals of the MCAB.

2.  Bigger beers stand out in a competition.  As an experienced judge, I
can tell you that judges KNOW this and are careful to make sure they can
justify giving the "big" beer in a best of show the award.  I've been on
BOS panels that gave the award to the eisbock, and I've been on panels
that gave it to the weizen.  When we settled on the eisbock, the
question was asked "we're giving it to the biggest beer, can we really
justify that?"  We talked about it and were comfortable with our
decision.  It has been argued that a "bigger beer" will do better in a
given style - say a american pale ale with 1.075 og and 75 ibu and
tastes like someone is ramming a grapefruit up your nose.  I've seen
that sometimes, but then that beer gets blown out in bos for being out
of style.

3.  Don't worry about the actual numerical score difference - you were
going against other winners, so the competition was a lot stiffer and
the grading was tougher, so to speak.  More importantly, different judge
panels can judge the same beers and give a different range of scores. 
Also, if the first beer was *really* good and the judges held back on
their scores, all other scores would be depressed as well.  I think that
is rare, but some judges aren't comfortable giving the first beer they
taste a high score.  

4.  Even though I think that winning beers are generally good beers,
judging and competitions are a bit of a crapshoot.  Your perfect foghorn
clone will not score as well as my bigfoot clone if the judges prefer
bigfoot - forget what the style guidelines say!  There's alot of
subjectivity in judging - there's also poor judging at times.  

5.  Finally, read your comments carefully - it does sound like there was
a shipping and storage problem somewhere along the line.  Seems odd if
it was bottle conditioned and stored cool - do you have any left that
you can taste while reading them?  (I'm afraid I know the answer to that
question...)  

And by the way, 41 in any competition means you made a pretty good beer.

Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League					Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:03:59 -0500
From: James Davis <jdavis1987 at home.com>
Subject: Cascade v. Centennial & Munich

I was recently told that Paddy Pale Ale of Wild Onion Brewing outside of
Chicago uses centennial, not cascade hops. I could swear it uses cascade
 - it is an extremely hoppy APA style with a distinctly bitter/citrusy
character that I though was cascade. Is centennial close in taste/aroma
to cascade?

As a side note there is apparently significant damage to the cascade
hops supply this year - anyone have any info on that?

Lastly, I'm making my third pilgrimage to Munich for Oktoberfest - Any
suggestions for beer stops that I might have missed the first two times?

Jim Davis



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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:14:59 -0600
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Give till it hurts...


Pat Babcock wrote:

>Before donating to the Red Cross, check to see if
>your employer has a matching gift policy...

You mean if 5 of us each give a pint, they're going to
tap 5 pints from my boss?!?  Where to I sign up?

JL





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Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:18:33 -0500
From: Greg Speiser & Cynthia Sawatzky <gregspeiser at home.com>
Subject: venturi tube advice

First off, yes I realize that oxygenating is better than aerating and 
that an aeration stone is better than a venturi tube but those things 
will have to wait.


I would like to make a copper venturi tube. I use immersion chillers in 
my kettles and the chilled wort will be flowing throw a syphon making a 
drop of about eight (8) feet from kettle to primary. The kettles are 
outside and the primaries are in the basement. I believe that the syphon 
is 3/8 id.

Questions:
What diameter copper tubing is best?
How many holes?
What diameter holes?
How much tubing before/after the holes?
Will the wort foam up too much?

Any pics of similar tubes also appreciated.

Greg




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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:13:58 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Brew in contests and storing yeast 

I think you found out that shipping beer to southern California in
June is a mistake.  About the only thing you could have done would be
to ship it via Fed Ex with dry ice to keep it cool (and pay a big
bundle of $$ for the privilege).  I wouldn't be surprised if the
winning beer in that category had been hand-delivered in a cooler. :-(
(Although given that the winner is from Delaware, I may have to eat
those words. :-)

Yes, the judges presumably "knew" that it scored higher than that in
the first round, but they have to work with the beer they have in
front of them, not what it might have been before subjected to the
rigors of shipping.

Lighter styles tend to suffer more in shipping.  Lagers suffer
more. Beers that have been exposed to oxidation (HSA or otherwise) in
the brewing, fermenting, packaging processes suffer more.  So brew
big-flavored beers, treat them as gently as possible, and ship them by
air (avoid "ground" at all cost!) preferably during a cool spell.

Or, only enter local competitions. :-)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:04:36 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Jeff R's CAP recipe

"Tom McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com> asked:

>Jeff, you used HBUs.  Specifically, you say
>First Wort Hops: 4-5 HBU Saaz or other noble hops
>Bittering hops: (60 minutes) 5.3 HBU whole
>Cluster (4.8 HBU for pellets)
>Flavor hops: (15 minutes) 1.5 HBU whole noble
>hops or Styrian Goldings
>(1.2 HBU for pellets) ten minutes before strike.
>
>Do you mean xx HBUs per gallon or for the 5
>gallon batch?  Fer instance, the FWH is it 4-5
>HBU's per gal (meaning 20-25 for the batch) or 4-
>5 for the whole batch?

I meant HBU per 5 gallons.  Actually, I think I may have specified 
IBU originally but changed it for publication in Zymurgy.  I can't 
remember.  But actually, the 5.3 HBU for bittering is a bit low 
(another revision?).  It would work out to be only around 20 IBU by 
my reckoning.  I like to get closer to 30 IBU.  The FWH will give 
15-20 IBU if you figure it will give as much as regular boiling hops, 
but they don't seem to produce the same bittering for some strange 
reason, even though they're boiled the whole time.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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