---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Rusty stainless (John Wilkinson)
  RE: undermodified malt (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Mini-kegs and Bulk CO2 ("Donald D. Lake")
  Help on Brew Chem experiment suggestions... (Andy Woods)
  HBD Community News: Brewers raising funds for the relief effort (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Competition details (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: Utah Beer ("Jeff Huck")
  Re: Mini Kegs and Bulk CO2 ("Pete Calinski")
  hop growing (Dave Wills)
  Mini Kegs and Bulk CO2 ("Dan Listermann")
  Hops (gsferg)
  cleaner question.. (Himsbrew)
  oxygen grades (stpats)
  re: Koninck recipe (Jan-Willem van Groenigen)
  Re: Beer in Utah ("Todd McAllister")
  Visiting Seattle ("Bruce Garner")


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:31:33 -0500
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkinson at goquest.com>
Subject: Rusty stainless

Phil Wilcox wrote:

>How do you rust a Stainless Steel keg?

Phil,

isn't there a danger of rusting stainless if it is cleaned/sanitized
with bleach?

John


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:09:00 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: undermodified malt

Stephen Alexander wrote:

> 
> If you want more protein type mouthfeel look to unmalted 
> grain additions or
> less modified malts and avoid mashing at 45-55C at all costs.
>

I have some of the Budvar undermodified malt and was planning a rest at 50C.
Are you saying to skip this and just do my sacch rest, or was this advice
for fully modified malts only?

While we're on the topic of undermodified malts, perhaps I'm guilty of
falling for marketing hype, because I have yet to discover WHY it is better.
Maybe the Moravian malt is just very good malt, period, but is there
anything about under-modification that will contribute to the final quality
of my beer?

Thanks
Brian 


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:27:06 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: RE: Mini-kegs and Bulk CO2

Dan Ippolito writes:
>............My switch to 5 gallon kegs is inevitable, but I still don't

>have the funds.  I can swing the tank and regulator, though.

Dan,
As the old saying goes, don't throw good money after bad.  If you are
only using mini kegs because of cost, don't waste your time.  As a
former mini keg user I can tell you  that C-kegs are much less work and
can be much less expensive than mini's (especially if you separate the
cost of the tank and regulator).   The advantage to mini-kegs is their
size, not their cost.

Although my homebrew shop has great prices on everything else, they
charge $25 for a used keg.  Forget that!  You order them from St Pat's
for 3 for $45.  If you're good, you can order from the that guy in
California for $12 each.  Now you're talking about a keg cost far less
per gallon than mini-kegs.

If you are even more resourceful (like I am), you can find someone in
your city that has these C-kegs they can't rid of and will practically
give them away (I get mine for $5).  The soda industry has switched to
polybags and no longer uses these kegs.  There are a ton of these things
out there, just go out and find them.  Then offer the guy some of your
best home brew.  Somehow that always improves their willingness to help.

Don



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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:30:08 -0400
From: Andy Woods <woods_a at ACADMN.MERCER.EDU>
Subject: Help on Brew Chem experiment suggestions...

Brew Chemists,

  I posted this a few weeks ago and only got 2 responses back.  Im looking to 
conduct Brew Chem experiments in the areas of Chemistry/Microbiology.  
I have experience up to and including Analytical Chemistry as well as advanced 
Biology research. Ive been looking over the America Society of Brewing 
Chemists web site (http://www.scisoc.org/asbc/) and Zymurgy's Geek section.

  Mainly, im looking for some guidance in the type of areas/experiments to 
work in.  Such as water chemistry of wort, various yeast experiments, hop 
utilization.  Im open to ANYTHING, but just could use a little direction.  
Also, are there any other Brew Chem sites dedicated to relevant research in 
the field?

  One last thing, im looking to design an experient to show that naturally 
aged wines only have an alcohol content between 12-14%.  Any suggestions would 
be greatly appreciated.

Andy
  



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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:40:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Community News: Brewers raising funds for the relief effort


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I wish to commend the F.O.R.D. home brew club in Dearborn, MI
for their generosity! This past Saturday was our annual
"Septoberfest" Picnic. Normally, we hold raffles and 50-50
drawings to raise funds for the clubs. This year, all proceeds
went to the Red Cross! Way to go! (YIAMAAVSMAT*)

-------------

Our HBD Community Red Cross Match Fund is at $300 so far. Thanks to all
the generous donors. If you wish to donate to the Red Cross and would like
to have your donation go twice as far, please donate through the Match
Fund. If received in time for me to postmark the entire fund by 10/15 (I
will probably mail the check 10/13 to ensure it receives the prescribed
postmark) these funds will receive a match. If received after, I will try
to identify other oppportunities to have the funds matched (there are
still several public matches in my area), but will forward them to the Red
Cross regardless.

-------------

Also, this just in:


Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:36:00 0000
From: Brewing News <bounce at brewingnews.com>
Reply-To: Brewing News <jamie at brewingnews.com>
Subject: Please Support Unity Night

UNITY NIGHT, OCTOBER 11, 2001


Brewing News and the Pennsylvania Brewers Guild invite brewers
and beerlovers across the nation to show support for those
affected by the tragic events of September 11th on Unity Night,
October 11, 2001.

Participating brewpubs, breweries & taverns are being asked to
donate a portion of the proceeds from their beer sales on Unity
Night to The United Way's September 11th Fund (see information
below).

Brewers desiring more information about Unity Night should
contact Sean Casey, Bryan Pearson or Erik Cantine of the Church
Brew Works by calling 412-688-8200 or emailing cbw at stargate.net

Brewing News will be maintaining an up-to-date list of
participating establishments at
http://www.brewingnews.com/unitynight. Brewing News will also
send out reminder emails mentioning participating locations to
our readers (via our regional Hop Tips email newsletters) just
prior to Unity Night.

We hope you'll support this worthy cause. 

Thank you,

Bill Metzger, Jamie Magee, Jim Dorsch, Hans Granheim
Brewing News Publications

-------------

About the September 11th Fund

"United Way and The New York Community Trust have created The
September 11th Fund. Your contribution will be used to help
respond to the immediate and longer-term needs of the victims,
their families, and communities affected by the events of
September 11. Launched with a $1 million donation from Williams
Gas Pipeline, the Fund has received support from dozens of
Fortune 500 companies and thousands of individuals.

Funds will be administered by the two organizations, which will
form a distribution committee to ensure that resources are
deployed effectively in New York and other cities affected by
these tragic events. The effort is supported by the
Washington-based Council on Foundations."

People can read more about the September 11th Fund and other
Donation causes at http://www.helping.org

-------------

Let us know what other things are going on in the brewing
community to help support our American community. THe sharing of
ideas will help generate even more as we find things you've done
that WE can do!

-------------

(*Yes, I'm A Member - And A Very Satisfied Member At That)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday






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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:54:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Competition details

In HBD #3744, Jay Reeves wrote:
>The bottle tags are left on the bottles during competition, however the
>judges do not see the bottle, but the stewards do.  The stewards decant 
>the beer in the glass and bring this to the judging table.

>Problems I see with this is, 1) volatiles can dissipate quite rapidly,
>possibly before the sample makes it to the judging table, 2) even though
>the steward is shown how to decant the beer, they may not (and usually
>didn't) take the finesse needed for lively beers or heavily sedimented
>beers, or the care to get a proper head,

   I personally think it's a terrible thing to do.  Aside from
the aromatics question, which alone is enough reason to not use
that method, there are a bunch of other considerations.  Even if
you assume a perfect pour from the stewards, the judges lose
critical information about the beer-- did it gush, was the bottle
under- or over-filled, was it bottle-conditioned and if so was
the yeast cake so fluffy it explains the slight yeast haze (or
chunks :-), was it necessary to coax a head out of the beer or
take great pains to prevent an overwhelming head, etc.  All these
things can help a judge critique a beer and give insight into
providing hints for a brewer to create a better beer.  Not
allowing the judges these cues is a disservice to the entrant
IMO.

>The only reason I have heard for this practice is that the bottle
>is not judged.

   If judges can't be trusted not to allow the appearance of the
bottle to sway them, how can they be trusted to judge a beer at
all?
- -- 
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at [...]>
Admiring my beer bottle's sleek lines in East-central Illinois



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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:33:11 -0600
From: "Jeff Huck" <jeff-huck at home.com>
Subject: Re: Utah Beer

In HBD #3743 Todd Bissell asks about beer in Utah.


As a non-LDS resident of Salt Lake City for most of my life, it was nice to
hear Bill mention that we're not as dry as is often perceived.  Your friend
will defiantly be at an advantage if he starts brewing his own, though.  I
thought I'd clarify some of Bill's points, and add a few other quirks about
Utah alcohol laws, so that you can all realize how good you've got it.

Beer is available on Sunday's in Salt Lake City, at least.  Some communities
(Davis and Utah counties are the ones that I know about) limit the sale of
beer on Sundays.  Some cities in Utah county have recently enacted their own
local ordinances to force bars out of business.
Last call throughout the state is at 1:00am, and bars/private clubs must
close by 2:00am.
Regular beer kegs cannot be purchased by individuals (empty soda kegs can be
purchased and filled in the privacy of your own home ;) )
Distilled liquor can only be purchased in state liquor stores, or in
"Private Clubs".
"Strip clubs" cannot serve alcohol.  There are "Dance Clubs" that do.

Jeff
Salt Lake City, UT




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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:58:21 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Mini Kegs and Bulk CO2

Dan Ippolito asked:

>So, I went with mini kegs and thus far am pleased
>with the results.  However, the darn taps for the things
>are $50+ each and I'd love to be able dispense more than
>one keg at a time.
>     My Question:  Is there a way to hook several of these
>things to a CO2 tank



Come on you guys out there, another person wants the same thing I mentioned
a few weeks ago.  Too bad I'm not interested in making any money off of
brewing.  I would have slapped something together by now.

Characteristics:

1)Small containers (3 to 6 liters or quarts) so 5 or 6 can fit on a single
shelf in a refrigerator,

2)A manifold so one regular CO2 tank/gauge set supplies them all (could be
just plastic tubing and "tees"),

3)Cheap container (Maybe $0.50 or $1.00 each) since 5 Gal will require
multiple containers for storage,

4)Low cost "tap" system (maybe $10.00 to $15.00 per tap) because 5 or 6
required at a time.

Two years ago I was all set to use a "Tap Cap" which used parts of the
"Double Drafter" system.  Unfortunately the homebrew shop that had it went
out of business.

I could have put together a system consisting of:

1) CO2 tank and gauges--------------------$100.00 or so,

For each beer on tap:

2) Quick Disconnect-------------------------$1.80
3) Tap-Cap (for 3 liter, 38mm PET bottle)---$3.60
4) Squeeze faucet (Cobra tap)---------------$8.25
5) Check Valve------------------------------$1.35

For all the beer,

6) Three liter soda bottle------------------$0.50

Items and prices for 2 through 6 were from the West Creek Homebrew shop that
went out of business.

Using these prices as a guide, I could accommodate 6 batches of beer, 5
gallons each for $211.00 + tubing.

1  of item 1=100.00
6  of items 2 through 5=6*(1.80+3.60+8.25+1.35)=90.00
30 of item 6 (7 bottles per 5 gallon batch times 6 batches)=$21.00

Is this rocket science???

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************






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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:16:49 -0700
From: Dave Wills <dave at freshops.com>
Subject: hop growing

Regarding the availability of hop plants in September. Hop rhizomes 
are dug while dormant around February. They then go into cold storage 
in order to keep them dormant until they are planted. In order for 
the plant to get established prior to it going dormant again it 
should be planted before the end of June. If a person was able to 
find hop rhizomes in September they would be weak from prolonged cold 
storage and even if they did come up they would soon go dormant and 
most likely would not have established themselves to a point where 
they would survive the winter. Therefore nothing is gained by 
planting after June. Hops should be planted outdoors around your last 
frost date in Spring or started in pots indoors when available in 
March.
- -- 
Dave Wills
Freshops
purveyor of fine hops


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:35:43 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Mini Kegs and Bulk CO2

From: "Daniel Ippolito" <DCippy at beer.com> Asks about hooking 5 L Mini Kegs
to a CO2 regulator.  Most German taps can be powered this way by buying a
Carbonator Cap and screwing it on to the thread where the cartridge bulb
goes.  A rubber washer will need to be fabricated to seal.  A thin rubber
disk made from tire patch with a hole in the middle will do.  The Carbonator
will allow standard ball lock fittings to snap on the the tap.

If the tap is the Flexi Tap, William's Brewing sells an adapter.

The Philtap will simply require the removal of the Schrader valve core with
a valve tool ( dirt cheap at any auto supply) and a 1/4" ID hose pushed over
the valve.  Clamping should not be necessary.


 Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com

Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!




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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0400
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Hops

>From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
>Subject: Freshops
>
>Freshops has no more Rhizomes this year.  Does anyone have another source for
>hop bines?

The ones I gots growing now (Nugget) came from FEDCO which has a (lousy) web
site:

http://www.fedcoseeds.com/

I couldn't find hops on it when I looked the other day, but it's in their 
catalog, they sell Nugget and Willimette. Dunno if they've got any for sale 
now. You could write/call them and ask.

FYI I harvested mine the other day and got 7+ ounces (dried). The plants were
pretty shabby looking. I'm happy as a clam :)

George-

- -- 
George S. Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Oracle DBA, Programmer, Humorist
PGP Key: http://clary.gwi.net/gsferg/gsferg at clary.asc
- --------------
I am a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.




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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:43:04 EDT
From: Himsbrew at aol.com
Subject: cleaner question..

greetings all..
I have a question regarding a cleaner for equipment
I have been using a one-step, no rinse cleaner
by logic.  Now, I love the product but at $2.25
per 8oz. pac its a little pricey. does anyone know 
where to get the same product(or one similar)
at a bulk price?
I have been tempted to use T.S.P. would that be bad??
thanks Jim Cuny--Himsbrew at aol.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:17:17 -0500
From: stpats <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: oxygen grades

I posted this to rcb a few weeks ago and it seems topical again here.

The issue of oxygen grade has come up in the shop so I spent some 
time a few months ago researching it. This is a summary of what I 
gleaned from conversations with a gentleman at Praxair as well as 
info in Handbook of Compressed Gases and literature from the 
Compressed Gas Association.

Medical, Aviation, and Industrial (Welding) grade oxygen are the 
three LOWEST grades of oxygen and there is no advantage whatsoever of 
one over the other for the purpose of aerating wort. All are filled 
from the same liquid oxygen cylinder. In other words you get the same 
oxygen in any of these grades.

Medical grade is at least 99% oxygen while Aviation and Industrial 
are higher, 99.5% minimum.

Aviation grade is tested for water only. Water can freeze at high 
altitudes and therefore be dangerous to aviators and passengers. The 
only difference between Aviation and Industrial is the maximum 
moisture H20 content is guaranteed for Aviation.

Medical grade is different from Industrial and Aviation in that the 
maximum level of CO2 and CO is guaranteed for Medical.

Here's the important point though. None of these grades are evaluated 
for any other impurities that might be of health concern such as 
hydrocarbons (oils). Only when you get to higher grades used for 
research are these impurities specified.

By the way, the impurities, <.5%, in Industrial and Aviation, and up 
to 1% in Medical is almost certainly air, or more precisely mostly 
nitrogen since air is 80% nitrogen. Air is of course 20% oxygen and 
this is undoubtedly a source of concern for beer.

Medical cylinders are evacuated slightly (~2/3 of an atmosphere) 
prior to filling and the others may be as well but regulations 
require that the pump not contain oil such as common pumps do, so 
there is no back filling with oil. Additionally, Medical Grade gases 
are regulated by the FDA like a drug so there are additional labeling 
and equipment filling certifications required, although the exact 
same equipment is used.

Lynne O'Connor

- -- 
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:43:13 -0700
From: Jan-Willem van Groenigen <groenigen at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: re: Koninck recipe

Mark Tomusiak wrote:

>The basic
>inspiration for the grist came from Wheeler and Protz's "Brew Classic
>European Beers at Home", but as I indicated in my earlier post, I think the
>most critical part is the yeast selection and the fermentation regime.

By coincidence, I also brewed this Wheeler and Protz recipe three weeks 
ago. It turned out really well. I stayed a little bit closer to the 
original recipe, I guess:

 - I did not include the biscuit malt.
 - I converted it into a partial mash recipe, so I changed the pilsner malt 
into DME
 - I only used saaz bittering hops (no fwh, no flavor or aroma hops)
 - I used white labs Belgian Saison yeast
 - I did a step infusion mash, although they prefer the decoction

The only problem was that, due to the climate here, I could not do the 
secondary at the lower temperature. I bottled it yesterday, and it seems to 
be pretty close to the original, though.

Cheers, JW.





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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:18:45 -0400
From: "Todd McAllister" <ToddH.McAllister at corel.com>
Subject: Re: Beer in Utah

Concerning Todd Bissell's Utah beer question. as a current resident of
Utah, beer lover and homebrewer, I would like to expand upon, and
clarify a little of Bill Pierce's response.

For the most part, Bill, you are right on, just a couple of minor
clarifications.  You mention no beer sales on Sunday, which is not
entirely true, some counties do not allow Sunday beer sales, but the
majority of counties do allow it.  Still, this is only the 3.2 beer in
the grocery stores, the state-run liquor stores, and the 'high-point'
beers within, are not open on Sunday.  Also, the 'private club'
memberships are generally good for one year, not one month.. Usually 15
to 35 dollars for the year. BUT!!!!, as you can see, that can really add
up if you want to frequent more that a few clubs.  Most also offer 2
week memberships for 5 dollars.  This works for visitors, or a resident
who may want to check out a club first before deciding to join.  

One thing that is the most disturbing to me, is that anything over 3.2
beer can only be sold in bottles, even in the private clubs, therfore,
there is a complete lack of true, high-point draught beer.  No real
Guinness draught on St. Paddy's, only the cans, or watered down 3.2
version.

Utah laws allow restaurants to have liquor licenses (and most 'good'
restaurants in Salt Lake, if not all of Utah, are licensed).  No
membership is necessary and you can order beers, 3.2 and above, and even
wine and mixed drinks as long as you have something to eat as well...
This can even be a $2.00 plate of chips and salsa, I look at it as a
cover charge.

Also, FYI, the Microbrews in Utah are surprisingly very good, and no
memberships are necessary so beer lovers can visit all they want.  They
specialize in brewing the beer to 3.2 from the mash, so you don't get
the 'watered-down' effect so much.  Plus, because they can't use the
alcohol to cover any off flavors, they must be very diligent on brewing
great tasting beer.  Utah Microbrewery's have many GABF award winning
beers, including a high proportion of Gold Medal winners.  A couple even
brew a high point beers that they sell in the liquor stores (Like the
Uintah that Bill Mentions, and Squatters I.P.A.).  Salt Lake City is
actually home to the current reigning 'Brewpub' of the year, (according
to some Brewpub publication/organization, I don't remember which), that
is the Red Rock Brewery, in the Downtown area.  Another great brewpub,
and my personal favorite, is Squatters Brewpub right around the corner
from Red Rock.  Uintah beers are available in many restaurants and
pubs.. I particualrly like their Cutthroat Ale... Nice hop finish.

Now, as for Vernal itself, I just don't know.  The Salt Lake beers are
generally avaible on draft in pubs and restaurants all over the state...
But Vernal is fairly 'small town' and your friend may be disappointed.
Send him into Salt Lake to see Mark at the Beernut (www.beernut.com) and
have him pick up all the equipment he needs to start his own Vernal
brewing operation.  As Bill says, it could make him rather popular among
the beer crowd.

Here are two web sites you should check out...  The first one is the
offical line from the Utah Department of Alcohol Beverage Control at
http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/index.html, with some useful information,
such as what beers you can find in the liquor stores, and where they are
located.  The second web site is a parody of the official site which is
sometimes humorous, sometimes scathing, and often a more honest
assesment of the Utah liquor laws.  It is at:
http://www.utahliquorlaws.com/.

Enjoy your homebrew,

 -Todd-


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:46:07 -0500
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Visiting Seattle

I will be visiting Seattle the end of next week. I am interested if there
are any beer club meetings or if anyone wants to get together to introduce
me the beer scene Thursday or Friday the 4th or 5th. I will be staying in
the Capitol Hill area. I am also interested in any suggestions of homebrew
shops, brew pubs I shouldn't miss or brewery tours.

Bruce Garner
Madison, WI



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---