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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  frozen yeast? ("mwagner")
  Thermal mass calc for promash (Casey)
  Re: Budvar undermodified malt ("Braam Greyling")
  Brew Chem (Dave Burley)
  3.2% alcohol ("Doug Moyer")
  Utah ("David Craft")
  More On Wort Kits ("Phil Yates")
  competitions and stainless steel rust ("Micah Millspaw")
  Home made German Pretzels? ("Brian M Dotlich")
  Distinguishing Lager vs Ale yeast ("Alan Meeker")
  Judging Beers (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Rusty stainless ("RJ")
  Visiting Seattle (JDPils)
  Subject: Re: Competition details & oxygen (Valerie Perry)
  Old Irish Poem ("The Clark's")
  Brewing binges and forgetfulness... (William & Kazuko Macher)
  HBD Community News: Brewers raising funds for the relief effort (Pat Babcock)


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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:56:58 -0300
From: "mwagner" <mwagner at alean.com.ar>
Subject: frozen yeast?

I heard from a friend that yeast can fe frozen if you prepare a starter and
mix it with 30% of glycerol solution (50% glycerol +50%water free of mineral).
Is that correct?
Could some one explain me the procedure to do it?
How much time can be held the yeast in this condition?

Best Regards,

Mauricio Wagner
Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA
Good Beef and Barbecue, Excelent Women!!!




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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:03:38 -0700
From: Casey <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: Thermal mass calc for promash

Guys, I was wondering what the thermal mass variable was in ProMash and
found this on the site. I saw a question a while back. Hope it helps.

 -Casey

P.S.  I'm brewing my scotch ale tomorrow! Aren't you excited?

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by John Donovan on December 15, 2000 at 14:01:36:

In Reply to: Re: thermal mass posted by Adam on December 13, 2000 at
14:00:53:

: For my insulated 50L keg, I use a thermal mass of 0.3, and it has been
very close.

: Adam

: : Karl, I'm using .25 with an insulated (aluminumized, bubble wrap) on
a 15.5 gallon converted keg. I usually let the mash
water in first to make it easier to gauge volume and then follow with
grain. My my mash temp usually falls right in place. Except
when its really cold then I'll add a few points to the mix to
compensate.

: :
: : : : So what is on average, the thermal mass for a non-insulated
converted keg?

: : : Actually hard to say because most brewers I know using a converted
keg as a mash tun also heat the mash water in the tun,
and therefore the thermal mass is 0. Are you not heating the water in
the tun (converted keg)?

: : : Anybody out there using a cold keg as a mash tun (IE no
pre-heating) care to share what thermal mass you are using?
Please also specify keg type....thanks!

: : : Cheers!

I use a 50lt converted s/s keg for my mashing,the heated water is added
to the cold keg and I calculate the mash in temp using
promash.The thermal mass is set at 0. Only one problem,the rest is
usually 2c to high so I allow for this.If I set the thermal mass
higher it predicts a higher mash in temp.
Regards, JD
Regards JD.



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:26:20 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Re: Budvar undermodified malt

Brian and others

What I do know is that I have tried to replicate Pilsner Urquell for a 
long time now and still is unsuccessful. Although I brew a very 
good Pilsner, it does not taste EXACTLY like P.U. 
I use hops imported from Czech, and I use the P.U. mashing 
schedule as they do in Plzensky Prajdroi , and I also use the 
Wyeast Czech Pils Yeast but still it is not exactly PU.

Unfortunately I cannot get hold of undermodified malt as I will have 
to import it myself. 

So I firmly believe, the reason that my Pils differs from PU is that 
I dont have the Czech undermodified malt. I think the combination 
of good quality undermodified malt AND specific mashing schedule 
give the PU a very unique taste. 

Any thoughts on this ?

BTW, I was at the PU brewery in Plzn a few years back. It was 
before South African Breweries bought them out. I hope they 
NEVER NEVER NEVER change the taste of PU. 

Happy brewing.

Brian wrote   :
>>>>>>>>
I have some of the Budvar undermodified malt and was planning a 
rest at 50C.
Are you saying to skip this and just do my sacch rest, or was this 
advice
for fully modified malts only?

While we're on the topic of undermodified malts, perhaps I'm guilty 
of
falling for marketing hype, because I have yet to discover WHY it is 
better.
Maybe the Moravian malt is just very good malt, period, but is there
anything about under-modification that will contribute to the final 
quality
of my beer?  

<<<<<<<<<<<
Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd
Tel +27 21 8630033  Fax +27 21 8631512



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:10:49 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brew Chem

Andy,

Your desire to further explore the chemistry of brewing is admirable, but
first I would explore some of the more scientific texts on this subject so
you understand just how much of this work has already been done over the
past century. Bearing in mind even it  is a bit dated,  a good place to
start is to get a copy of Malting and Brewing Science Vols 1 and 2.

As far as naturally aged wines reaching only the range of  12 - 14 %
alcohol. Your premise is just not true, as the sugar content of the must
and the yeast used for the fermentation control that number to a large
degree.  Numbers as low as 10% and as high as 16% can be obtained
commercially.  Low alcohol wines are less shelf stable ( although some
German wines are at this level)  and high alcohol wines above 14% tend to
be harsh, especially in the presence of tannins,  so the commercially
acceptable values tend to be in the 12-14% range. Some states ( like SC for
instance)  have limits on alcohol content and wines higher than 14% would
have to be sold in a liquor store. So commercial considerations as well as
good taste and fermentation conditions. govern the alcohol content of
commercial wines.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:36:08 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: 3.2% alcohol

Just a clarifying point. Todd B.'s comments on Utah's beer mentioned the
3.2% law. He got the ABV and ABW switched, though. The law limits to 3.2%
alcohol by weight. For the rest of us, beer (and wine) are measured in
alcohol by volume. 3.2% ABW = 4.0% ABV. (Which is pretty close to a true
draft Guinness, Todd McA!)

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
 with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
     ~ Galileo Galilei



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:00:29 -0400
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Utah

Funny how Utah sounds just like Good Ol Nawth Caroliner!

David B. Craft

PS- If you can't buy anything over 6% in NC, is it legal to make it?  I had
to ask a pertinent question as the Janitor might not post the above
sentiment.  :>)



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:11:14 +0900
From: "Phil Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: More On Wort Kits

Firstly, I'd like to express my deepest sorrow and horror regarding the
despicable and incredibly evil events which occurred in America earlier this
month. Words fail me as much as any attempt I make to comprehend what
happened. Or why it happened.

Quite removed from these horrendous events, my own Airline (well not mine,
but for whom I work) collapsed the very next day, putting me out of work
(along with about 16000 others).

Looking ahead, I'm going to have plenty of free time to brew beer. Just at
the moment I am busy experimenting with the wort kits which are proving a
real winner. Even the ladies of the billiard room give it the "thumbs up"
sign of approval. The wort kits are enhanced enormously by the addition of a
hop tea. What I find interesting is that I can work with a constant (being
the wort kit) and apply my own variables ie yeasts, hop additions,  ferment
temps etc to see what different results can be achieved. I believe Steve
Alexander would be proud of me!!

Steve would say that at long last Phil Yates is actually conducting an
effing experiment!

And Doc Pivo would be interested too, but he seems to have disappeared for
the time being. Heading for European hibernation I expect.

Take Care Everyone
And let's hope our children will have a better world to live in than what it
is now.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:42:36 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: competitions and stainless steel rust

Subject: Re: Competition details

In HBD #3744, Jay Reeves wrote:
>The bottle tags are left on the bottles during competition, however the
>judges do not see the bottle, but the stewards do.  The stewards decant 
>the beer in the glass and bring this to the judging table.

I have seen the above decanting method used at several 
commercial beer competitions (run by AHA ? ) that I have 
judged as well as some state fair comps. Decanting and
serving is certainly not the best method. I believe in the 
commercial comps it is used to accomodate draught beer 
entries and normaly packaged beers. It takes a diligent 
stewarding crew to do a good job. I have observed the full 
spectrum of the stewarding and it does impact the beer and 
judges.


Rust on stainless steel. Stainless steels can rust by induction.
That is contact with other ferris materials. Corrosion of the stainless 
by chemicals followed by the presence of iron in the local water 
supply can do it. There are a number of vectors for rusting 
stainless, such as poor welding and grinding techniques. Steels,
stainless and all others are not in a naturally occuring state. Given any 
oppurtunity the materials will return to their natural state, FeO3,
 or rust.  

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large




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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:54:10 -0400
From: "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich at cs.com>
Subject: Home made German Pretzels?

Fellow Brewers,

In keeping with the spirit of Octoberfest, I was wondering if anyone knows
of a recipe for German soft pretzels?

Brian M Dotlich
Dayton OH



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:22:18 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Distinguishing Lager vs Ale yeast

I'm catching up on a lot of HBD reading...

 The question of how to tell if an unknown yeast is a lager strain or an ale
strain was recently posed. While it is true that there are metabolic tests
that can be conducted to determine this (eg - discrimination by selective
fermentation of particular sugars), there is a much easier way, especially
for the homebrewer, and that is to take advantage of the large difference
between lager and ale yeasts with respect to optimal growth temperature. If
you have a reference strain on hand that you know the identity of (ale or
lager) then you can compare the growth of the unknown strain to this
reference strain. If you are already yeast farming/culturing this is easily
accomplished by plating the two yeasts on different halves of the same agar
plate. At relatively high temps, say 37 degC, ale yeast grows vigorously
while lager yeast grows very poorly and the difference will be easily
noticeable after an overnight incubation. Just the reverse pattern will be
seen if the yeast are grown at cool room temperature, though this will take
a little longer, on the order of a day or two. If, instead, the plate is
incubated in the refrigerator (4 degC), then growth will be seen for the
lager yeast, but essentially none for the ale yeast. Of course, this will
take several days to see the result for the refrigerated plate. If you're
not into petri plates then you perform the same test using liquid test
cultures but you have to be careful to ensure that the starting densities of
the cultures are fairly similar, and that the innocula for the liquid
cultures are both healthy.

Hope this helps...

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD




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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:14:16 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Judging Beers

Joel Plutchak discusses on the HBD how he finds it important to see a 
bottle of beer when he judges it.  He mentions gushing, difficulty / ease 
of creating head on the beer, presence of yeast causing haze and a few 
other things.

In general I agree with Joel.  It would be nice if we could actually have 
beers judged backwards where all "other" sensory information is assessed 
and evaluated and then someone looks at the bottle.  Why?

I recently entered a beer into a competition.  It had a little more bottle 
yeast than would have been desired.  That's the breaks.  However, it was 
clear from the judging sheets that this biased the judges.  The top of the 
form evaluates "packaging" including fill and appearance.  The judges at 
this particular competition recorded some rather derogatory comments about 
the "appearance" of the beer in the bottle.  Every comment thereafter could 
be linked to their initial perception that this was a bad beer because of 
the way the bottle "appeared" at the table.  The overall score was a 19.

Come on folks a 19 is a pretty bad beer.  I've continued to drink this beer 
myself.  I'm not going to argue that this is a 45+ beer by any means.  It's 
not.  But it IS a far cry from a 19.  If you could see the score sheets 
you'd have to agree that the judges biased themselves by what they 
perceived to be a fault (bottle conditioning) and were unable to see beyond 
their eyes on this beer.

Yes, this is the nature of competitions as previous posters have 
mentioned.  "Got a 7 in one comp and a perfect 50 in another."  There is 
variability but bias is another issue.

I've got mixed feelings about judges seeing bottles and beers before they 
are judged.  Some may see a haze in an otherwise spectacular beer and give 
it a significantly lower score because of such.  Bad form.

I'm not saying that this is particularly common, just that it can and 
probably does happen.  We are visual creatures by nature and we have a hard 
time getting over how things look.

Talk to you later.
nathan in madison, wi





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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:16:08 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Rusty stainless

John Wilkinson <jwilkinson at goquest.com> wrote:

"Phil Wilcox wrote:

>How do you rust a Stainless Steel keg?

Phil,

isn't there a danger of rusting stainless if it is cleaned/sanitized
with bleach?"

John & Phil,

First of all, the term Stainless is a misnomer, that said....

Chlorine bleach has a tendency to pit stainless steel weldments.   Since
kegs are welded, this is the major area that one needs to be concerned with,
as regards to pitting.

As far as "rusting" stainless is concerned, if you thoughts of stainless
steel is the austenitic series (there is actually 4 differtent series) 301,
303, 304, 305, 308, 316, 317... and so on, strong concentrations of hydrogen
sulfide (rotten egg smell from the water) will over time, scale/rust these
grades of s/steel.

In the oil fields, s/steel valves are rated (by NACE) in minutes as to how
long they'll last because of these very high concentrations, combined with
heat, etc..




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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:56:50 EDT
From: JDPils at aol.com
Subject: Visiting Seattle

Bruce,

If you are staying in Capital Hill I strongly recommend the Elysian Brewery.  
Check out the main pub on E Pike and also the pub at Gameworks.  This is the 
best of a great bunch of brew pubs in the area.  On the Eastside in Redmond 
check out the Celtic Bayou (Irish Pub and Cajun Food).  Another great place 
for beer and lite ours de horves is Maritime Pacific.  Also I like the 
Pyramid Brew Pub across from Safeco field.  There are lots others as well.

As for brew shops Mountain Homebrew (425-803-3996) in Kirkland and Bob's in 
Seattle should be the easiest access for you.  Check the phone book for more 
details.

My club, Cascade Brewer's Guild meets the second Tuesday of every month at 
Mountain Homebrew Supply.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA


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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:39:11 -0400
From: Valerie Perry <vspphoto at mediaone.net>
Subject: Subject: Re: Competition details & oxygen

I have only entered a couple competitions. However, I seem to remember a
bottle inspection section on the AHA sanctioned competition score sheet.
It's an important aspect of brewing, and could let a judge know if the beer
was infected right away (neck rings). Also, it would address the gushing or
bad head points already mentioned.

In addition to Lynne's info on oxygen.....
I'm  in the medical O2 business. I often test oxygen to assure purity. to
calibrate my analyzer I use 2 standard reference gasses that are a known
purity. One is medical grade O2, Compressed gas in a cylinder. the other is
pure nitrogen(both are certified as to what % of O2 they contain). Anyway,
When I have tested random medical grade O2 cylinders, they are almost always
99.9% to 100.0% pure. Also, as Lynne mentioned, The O2 industry doesn't use
oil in any of their processes. This is due to the possible reaction between
O2 and petroleum based products. A nasty flare-up can occur...very
dangerous. So, no petroleum or flames when you are oxygenating. I don't want
to hear any more stories like the one about a local lady who decided to
smoke with her o2 on...She blew off more than half her nose...Be careful!..
That's enough lecturing!

Hope this helps
Aaron Perry
secretlab at mediaone.net



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:35:15 -0400
From: "The Clark's" <rtclark at citynet.net>
Subject: Old Irish Poem

A bit of  Guinness was spilt, on the barroom floor, as the pub was closed
for the night.

Soon, out of his hole ran a wee brown mouse and stood in the pale moonlight.

He drank 'til the bubbly brew was all gone,  then upon the floor he sat.

And all night long you could hear him roar,"Now, bring on yer goddam cat!"



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:39:54 -0400
From: William & Kazuko Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Brewing binges and forgetfulness...

Hi All,

Since the queue seems short these days...

I usually brew some beers over the summer, such as Belgian styles suitable 
for fermenting
at warmer temperatures. This spring I went on a brewing binge and when it 
was over had about
eight carboys [forget exactly at the moment] fermenting happily on shelves 
in the basement
brewery, along with five carboys of mead. This situation of plenty led to a 
brewing famine.

Not sure why I have so much mead in the works, as I don't drink much of 
it...the oldest is a
batch from 1998, but they say age improves the Nectar of the Gods...but 
that is another story...

A few weeks ago my last [or, so I thought] keg of homebrew ran out. I 
resorted to buying beer
to tide me over until I got something back in the pipeline.

Yesterday, I finally got up the energy to brew an extract batch. Well, I 
suppose you could
say batches, as I tried something I had not done before. I used my normal 
kettle for one
10-gallon batch, and my HLT for another ten. Hey, if you are doing extract 
anyway, why not
give the pipeline a jolt!

Funny thing was, I happened to notice a carboy hiding behind a black 
plastic bag. A quick
count of carboys totaled s...but there are only five meads I 
remember...hola! A beer is there!

OK, this one was tagged as being brewed on 14 March. And moved to another 
carboy
about two weeks later. Yep, I simply failed to see it even though it was 
staring me in the
face whenever I was in the baseme...err...brewery [that place where the 
washer/drier
also abode...]

This was a 1.036 OG beer, that I did not think was super at the time I 
enjoyed the first
half, and which I still do not think is super, but it is a satisfactory 
brew, even after sitting
six months over the summer. Just kegged it a few minutes ago.

So the question is: Anyone else ever forget a carboy of brew for a 
relatively long time? I
remember hearing of people forgetting beers that they previously brewed, 
and thought
they must be lacking...well, I guess they were lacking what I lack...

Anybody want to go for the forgetfulness record? Bidding starts at six 
months and a few day...

On a separate note, not sure why I feel the need to admit it, but I 
recently realized that
there is no bad beer...at first I was down on Budmilleroors...but now I 
respect them for
what they are...

Enjoy the beginning of the northern-hemisphere-brewing season!

Bill Macher...Pittsburgh, PA...USA



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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Community News: Brewers raising funds for the relief effort


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Our HBD Community Red Cross Match Fund is at $425 so far. Thanks
to all the generous donors. Can we reach at least $1000 by the
turn in?

Once again, if you wish to donate to the Red Cross and would
like to have your donation go twice as far, please donate
through the Match Fund. If received in time for me to postmark
the entire fund by 10/15 (I will probably mail the check 10/13
to ensure it receives the prescribed postmark) these funds will
receive a match. If received after, I will try to identify other
oppportunities to have the funds matched (there are still
several public matches in my area), but will forward them to the
Red Cross regardless.


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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