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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Oxidized Brews (Bob Sheck)
  Re: Wheat Concoction ("Rob Compton")
  browning fresh hops? ("Badger/DJ Sable/Project Mercury")
  Re-brewing for competition ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Teaberries in my beer? ("Christopher Mika")
  Re: thermal mass for picnic cooler ("Eric and Susan Armstrong")
  Stuck RIMS ("Dave & Joan King")
  Re: Beer Baking (Jeff Renner)
  Long mash times = high attenuation & course flavors...? (Karen & Troy Hager)
  Subject: rply:Iodine (Zurekbrau)
  Competition Announcement (Jim Hinken)
  Re: Re-brewing for competition? (Robert Paolino)


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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:38:43 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Oxidized Brews

Is there any health risks with consuming oxidized beers? 

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC



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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:29:43 +0100
From: "Rob Compton" <compton at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Wheat Concoction

Greetings Ringpulls....

>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:06:42 -0700
>From: Casey <acez at mindspring.com>
>Subject: Wheat Concoction

>How long should I ferment it? I welcome any ideas.

I would think... until activity has ceased (or as near as dammit!) and the
SG as fallen to 1.012 or thereabouts. You may find, from my experiences..,
that it will attenuate closer to 1.005, so if you want to wait....

Sounds like a nice recipe. Let us know how it turns out (drinkable or not!).

I've used wheat (unmalted), and wheat malt for quite a few beers - tried
copying Hoegarden but haven't quite got their yet - probably a case of
getting the right yeast for primary and secondary fermentations as they use
a different yeast to krausen the bottles.

Mud in yer eye!

Rob.




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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:14:26 -0700
From: "Badger/DJ Sable/Project Mercury" <badger at badger.cx>
Subject: browning fresh hops?

Some one gave me three paper bags half full of Hallertaur fresh hops.
they are partially dry, and i am leaving them in the bags, and shaking them
up everyonce in a while to let them dry out before i attempt to get a decent
vacuum seal with my dust buster and a ziplock.  then into the freezer.

Question: some of them are turning brown ish.  is that bad?  or normal.
I've never dealt with fresh hops ever.

badger



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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:01:43 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re-brewing for competition

Bob Paolino brought up an interesting issue concerning re-brewing for
competition in response to something I'd posted earlier.

He wrote:
"If the competition explicitly permits it, it's hard to blame someone for
taking advantage of the opportunity.  That said, I think allowing it is
a bad idea.

Ethical dilemmas aside (well, not completely put aside), if you re-brew
you're entering a different beer in the second round, not the beer that
got you there.  Remember that we're talking about homebrewing.  In a
commercial brewery, there's a reasonable expectation of consistency
from one batch to the next.  Not so under homebrewing conditions,
except perhaps for a few elabourate homebreweries."

Brian Lundeen responded -
"These competitions are between brewers. Beers don't climb out of their
boxes, travel cross-country and challenge another beer to a taste-off
(clearly a death match if there ever was one). WE are the ones competing."

As far as I know, there are only two competitions that have multiple rounds -
the AHA Nationals and the MCAB. Are there others I'm not aware of? The MCAB is
definately a competition between brewers. Start with the name - Masters
Championship of Amateur Brewers and the fact that the rules specifically
permit brewing a new batch. (I tried to confirm this by looking at the entry
rules on the website, but it currently only lists the winners). It's the
brewer's choice to resubmit the original brew or a newer (and obviously
different brew of the same style). I'm pretty sure the rules for the AHA
Nationals used to specifically prohibit a new batch, but for the last several
years the rules don't mention it one way or the other. Maybe Gary Glass or
Paul Gatza could confirm this?

I will say that I don't think many brewers are re-brewing for the AHA Natls -
at least going by the German Wheats I've judged at the last couple of 2nd
rounds. They were uniformly lacking (or at least low) in the wonderful yeast
flavor characteristics that define these styles. I've got to believe that this
wasn't the case for these same beers in the first round. We chose winners in
the category, but I know they wouldn't have a chance at Best of Show.

Mark Wilson gives us further evidence of this in his post -
"The advantages of re-brewing will vary greatly with style.  This is what
happened to me in the AHA Nationals a few years ago.  I entered a 1.032 OG
Mild, and scored in the mid 40's.  The judges really liked it, one of them
even mentioned it on his website.

By the second round, (~2 months later) the beer had fallen apart.  The
judges ripped it, scoring in the mid 20's.  And I agreed with them!  My
copies at home had fallen apart, too.  Oxidation was setting in.  If I were
to do it again with any light style I would not think twice before
re-brewing.

The fragility of lighter beers, especially for homebrewers, undoubtedly
contributes to the imbalance of big beers winning competitions, given that
many of the lighter styles are more difficult to brew."

I'm sure that many brewers rebrew for MCAB and this contributes to the high
level of competition. Currently, I don't think many brewers are rebrewing for
the Nationals 2nd round, even in the styles that are clearly best when young
and fresh. I'd be curious if this is correct. Have any of you re-brewed for
the Nationals?

It may be difficult to get a clear consensus on this issue, but I think that
if the brewer has the chops to win in the first round of the AHA Natls, or a
qualifying round of the MCAB, there is absolutely nothing wrong with rebrewing
a new batch. It could turn out better or worse than the original. It's up to
the brewer to decide which is better. I think the judges would be presented
with a better group of beers. Overall, this would improve the level of
competition. If we don't want this, we should make sure that the rules
specifically prohibit rebrewing.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents,

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:35:00 +0000
From: "Christopher Mika" <cmika at hotmail.com>
Subject: Teaberries in my beer?

Greetings,
     Yesterday I was working out on a mountain top and ran across a patch of 
teaberries.  I managed along with some help to pick a full sandwich bag of 
them. I would like to use these in a teaberry brew and was wondering if 
anybody else out there had any experience with them they could share with 
me. I am not even sure if I should add them to my mash, (I think they would 
just float to the top) the boil, or maybe even my secondary fermentor.  
Also, any recipes for an ale that would accentuate the teaberry flavor would 
be much appreciated.

On another note, I would like to thank everybody who responded to a post 
regarding questions I had about building my three-tier system.  I 
incorporated alot of different people's ideas into the design.  My first 
brew on the system was at a club booth at a local festival.  I brewed  a 10 
gal. batch of American Amber Ale and my system worked great.  What made the 
whole experience interesting was that there was no running water available 
for any of the process.  If anybody would like to hear the details I would 
gladly go over them and what I would change if I were to do it again.

Cheers,
Chris Mika
Altoona, PA



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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:49:57 -0500
From: "Eric and Susan Armstrong" <erica at isunet.net>
Subject: Re: thermal mass for picnic cooler

Here is the answer that Jeff Donovan sent to me regarding the same question.
Note, I use a rectangle cooler and not a round Gott cooler.

>Jeff:

>I have been playing with the thermal mass feature of Pro
>Mash.  I mash in a Coleman cooler and after about >fifteen batches I have
come to the conclusion that I >should set the thermal mash of my mashtun to
0.00.  >Does this seem reasonable?


Well if the mashtun is pre-heated then yes, the thermal mass should always
be 0. If not then no, there is always some heat absorbed by a cold mashtun
and that needs to be accounted for. I haven't used a Coleman cooler before,
but I know a few users that do and they have suggested a very low thermal
mass, in the range of 0.03.

Bottom line is that if you are hitting your targets with a given number,
use it. If not, you need to make the appropriate adjustment.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance,

Cheers!




Jeffrey Donovan
Beer Engineer
The Sausalito Brewing Co.
jeffrey at promash.com
jeffrey at beerengineer.com
http://www.promash.com
http://www.beerengineer.com




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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:31:42 -0400
From: "Dave & Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Stuck RIMS

My RIMS stuck on me yesterday, and it refused to free up.  I tore it all
apart, examined, cleared, backflush, worked with attempted very low flow
rates, etc.  Nothing would work.  I had about 1.1 qt/lb.  The mash started a
bit warm, about 156 to 158 F for about 10 minutes.  I was finally able to
get flow going after I added 3.5 gallons of hot water to start sparging, and
as it progressed, I was able to heat it up more with the RIMS, and it
finally got to 167F, and by then it was cleared up and flowing fine.  The
grain bill was 10.5 lb Munton's 2RE, 1/4 lb Munich, 1/2 lb 6L Special B, 1/2
lb 60L crystal.  I use a large pad as a grant, which I bias heat on a small
burner.  Roughly this same recipe mashed and sparged just fine about a week
before.

I had 1 stuck sparge with normal mashing about 2 years ago, but I think I
was just flowing too fast at that time.  I haven't had trouble before or
after, until yesterday.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

     Dave King (BIER, Brewers In the Endicott Region)



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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:59:04 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Baking

Drew Avis of Merrickville, Ontario <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> asks me:

>Here's a suggestion: why not a series of recipes for baked foods that
>traditionally accompany or contain beer?  You're probably better qualified
>than anyone else here to write such an article, Jeff.  Here's what I've been
>looking for: I have a friend who is of Belgian extraction who makes amazing
>Belgian waffles, but she won't give me the recipe. All I know is that
>they're leavened with yeast, not baking powder, and I suspect she puts beer
>in there as well as they have a wonderful nutty/malty flavour.   I would
>love to try them topped with ice cream and drizzled with some "dessert
>stout" sent to me by the infamous Brian Lundeen.
>
>So, do you have such a recipe in your pocket as well, Jeff?

Well, Drew, I did write an article in Zymurgy a few years ago about 
baking bread with spent grains called Baking for Brewers or something 
like that, but I don't have a line on your Belgian waffles.  But 
maybe your Belgian friend could be bribed with some Belgian beer. 
How about offering her a trade - her recipe for a five gallon batch 
of Chimay clone?  Chimay go for it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:46:55 -0700
From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Long mash times = high attenuation & course flavors...?

In the mash length thread of late Steve wrote:

"Long mash times lead to wort darkening and coarser flavors in the beer.
Extreme mash times and thick mashing have a place in the arsenal of brewers
tricks - but you should save these for special occasions when nothing else
will work."

As I am thinking of my mashing technique I have realized that I have
probably been mashing for quite a long time:

My usual mash schedule goes something like this - Mash in at about 155-158F
(trying to get more dextrins in my wort) - let sit for 1 hour in my gott
cooler mash tun - temp probably drops a few degrees over an hour. I have
never been too concerned about the time and never have done a iodine test-
but have adhered to what I was told and have read in my beginning brewing
years that it doesn't make much difference - just mash for an hour or so and
it is sure to convert... So depending on who comes over or what I am doing
my mash time is usually somewhere in the 1-1.5 hour range.

Then I recirculate for about 15minutes or so and then start sparging. I
usually sparge with 170F water and have noticed that the temperature of the
mash usually doesn't rise a whole lot - usually at the most in the low to
mid 160F range. I always sparge slowly - usually about 45mins or so.

During this time, I am collecting the runoff in the kettle and for the past
year or so I have been doing "split-brews" - where I mash and collect the
wort after work on Friday night, then Sat. morning boil and finish up. I now
realize that with my 1 hour plus initial mash time, recirculating time and
sparge time, my wort is sitting right in the 150-160F range for at least 2
hours, usually more.... AND, with the "split-brew" method, it is sitting at
enzyme range temps for hours...

I am assuming that I am giving those enzymes a long, long time to crunch up
those starch molecules into a highly fermentable wort and my FGs stand to
prove it with all my beers from 1.045-1.060 dropping to below 1.010. Kick
your butt brew! Is my line of thinking correct about this? Thanks for really
making this clear for me Steve!

I guess I am also wondering about your statement about long mash times
leading to course flavors. I have never read or heard  this - could you go
into this thought a bit further?

Thanks again, Troy



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Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:50:38 EDT
From: Zurekbrau at aol.com
Subject: Subject: rply:Iodine

In reply to John

>Any comments on the use of iodine and whether we should bother are greatly
>appreciated.
>From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com>

I used to do the iodine test, but found that after about an hour the mash was 
converted.  Now I just mash for one and half hours and skip the iodine test.  
It is easier not to worry about conversation ymmv

Rich Zurek in Carpentersville IL USA


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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:46:50 -0700
From: Jim Hinken <jim.hinken at verizon.net>
Subject: Competition Announcement

The Brews Brothers are pleased to announce Novembeerfest
2001, the Pacific Northwest's premier homebrewing
competition. Novembeerfest is open to all amateur brewers.
Novembeerfest will be held Saturday, November 3 at Larry's
Homebrewing Supply, 7405 S. 212th St. #103, Kent, WA 98032

Started in 1991, Novembeerfest has grown from a local
competition to the most respected competition in the Pacific
Northwest.  Entries will be accepted from all BJCP/AHA beer
style categories, including cider and mead.  The style
guidelines may be viewed at
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/style-index.html.
Three bottles are required for entry with an entry fee of
U.S.$5.  The standard AHA entry form and bottle labels may
be used.  Entries will be accepted through October 28, 2001.
They may be shipped to

Jim Hinken
24211 4th PL W
Bothell, WA 98021
425-483-9324

Entries may also be dropped off at:

Larry's Homebrewing Supply, 7405 S. 212th St. #103,Kent, WA
98032, 206-872-6846
Mountain Homebrew and Wine Supply, 8520 122nd Ave NE, Suite
#B-6, Kirkland, WA 98033, 425-803-3996
Cascade Brewing Supplies, 224 Puyallup Ave., Tacoma, WA
98421, 253-383-8980
Bob's Homebrew Supply, 2821 NE 55th St, Seattle, WA 98105,
206-527-9283
Rockfish Grill and Anacortes Brewery, 320 Commercial Avenue,
Anacortes, Washington,  360-588-1720

For additional information, contact

Jim Hinken
24211 4th Place West
Bothell, WA.  98021
425-483-9324
e-mail: jim.hinken at verizon.net



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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:04:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Re-brewing for competition? 

On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Mark W Wilson wrote:

> The advantages of re-brewing will vary greatly with style.  This is what
> happened to me in the AHA Nationals a few years ago.  I entered a 1.032 OG
> Mild, and scored in the mid 40's.  The judges really liked it, one of them
> even mentioned it on his website.
>
> By the second round, (~2 months later) the beer had fallen apart.  The
> judges ripped it, scoring in the mid 20's.  And I agreed with them!  My

All quite true.  But wouldn't that likely also be true of the other
finalists' beers in that same time period between first and second rounds?
It's a matter of fairness.  If entry "A" is re-brewed for a later round of
the same competition and entry "B" is done according to the rules and the
saame first-round-winning beer shipped for the second round, doesn't "A"
get an unfair advantage over "B" (as well as the other dilemmas I
suggested in the original post)?  (I do recall in AHA rules at least at
one time recommending refrigeration of additional bottles of the entries
for possible second round use--not a complete guarantee, but at least to
keep changes to a minimum.)

> The fragility of lighter beers, especially for homebrewers, undoubtedly
> contributes to the imbalance of big beers winning competitions, given that

The "big beer thing" may be true of a BOS, but less so within a style
category.  Most competitions, however, are just a single day/weekend,
without some second stage of the same competition months later (primarily
the AHANHC).  I'm not even so sure it's always true of BOS, because I've
noticed sometimes that BOS judges will bend over backwards, perhaps even
overcompensating, to avoid "big beer bias."

- -- 
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino           NOTE: Please change your address books
Madison                     by dropping the "earth" from the address!
I can taste my beer; can you?  Support your local craft brewers!



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