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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Wheat Concoction (Casey)
  RE: undermodified malt ("Stephen Alexander")
  Beta Glucans in Malt (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Brewing binges and forgetfulness... (Jeff Renner)
  re:scoring competition 20/50 or 20 out of 100 ("Donald D. Lake")
  Budvar vs. Czechvar (Jeff Hertz)
  Beer Baking ("Drew Avis")
  Re: Re-brewing for competition? (Mark W Wilson)
  thermal mass for picnic cooler ("Joel Halpine")
  3rd Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open ("H. Dowda")
  Breweries and History ("David Craft")
  RE: competitions (Brian Lundeen)
  Iodine ("John Gubbins")
  Re: Finishing Big Beer (Sherfey)


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Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:06:42 -0700
From: Casey <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: Wheat Concoction

Hey guys, how do you think this would taste?


3# White Wheat
2# Wheat Malt
1# Rye (I want to try the "spicyness" people say this brings)
3# Pale Malt (2-row)
2# Pilsner Malt
1/2# Flaked Oats
 .5# Honey Malt

 .5 oz - Halltertau NB at 60 mins
 .5 oz - Saaz finishing

Total IBU's in promash comes to 13. OG at 8 gals comes to 1.050.

WLP300 Hefewizen Ale (its opt. temp is 70, so I don't have to fridge
it...although it would probabyl be around 74-76 most of the
time...perhaps bringing out some fruity esthers as a plus)

How long should I ferment it? I welcome any ideas. I remember tasting a
wiezen a while back from the local brew-pub and it had a really good
unique taste to it. I can't describe it, but maybe after a few attempts
with wheat beers I can capture some of it.

Thanks in advance!
Casey



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:11:53 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: RE: undermodified malt

Brian Lundeen notes that I wrote ...
>> If you want more protein type mouthfeel [...]
>> less modified malts and avoid mashing at 45-55C at all costs.
>
>I have some of the Budvar undermodified malt and was planning a rest at
50C.
>Are you saying to skip this [...] , or was this advice
>for fully modified malts only?

The Budvar malt is an almost unique case Brian, and you should consider
a ~50C rest for this malt.   You might also consider a 50C rest is you are
brewing with significant unmalted grain.  Aside from these special cases
resting at 45-55C or even stepping thru this range slowly is a perfect way
to make a head&bodyless beer.

All other pale/pils commercial malts that I am aware are  well- or even over
modified by pre-1950 standards. Part of it is that 2 row malts based on
'triumph' or it's crosses tend to malt to this state.  Another is that
(mostly European) energy cost concerns since WW2 and US microbrewery
practice has lead to the near demise of commercial decoction breweries and
the ascendance of single decoction plants.  Malt style followed.

- --

>While we're on the topic of undermodified malts, perhaps I'm guilty of
>falling for marketing hype, because I have yet to discover WHY it is
better.
>Maybe the Moravian malt is just very good malt, period, but is there
>anything about under-modification that will contribute to the final quality
>of my beer?

I'll probably get nuked for saying this, but decocting well modified
malts is a lot like driving an off-road 4x4 vehicle on city streets - it
looks and sound  'cool', but it's just a waste of energy and money.
I believe that decoction using a Weissheimer or Durst makes just
a little difference - but it is a very small and subtle difference and
it will cost you hours to accomplish.  Louis Bonham wrote a BT
article years ago comparing decocted vs RIMS brews and
(experimental problems aside) there is no great payoff to justify
the extra toil.  You can often get the same effect by judicious
choice of malts or boil schedule.

IMO if you are going to go thru a decoction ordeal then it makes
sense to use a malt that need the extra work.  Budvar is the only
malt I am aware of that fits the bill.  If they made traditional Urquell
from this malt -  then it's well worth trying.  OTOH I had an Urquell
last week from a tap at a high volume place and this beer tasted a
sweeter and a tad less hoppy than I recall  !  Did they lose the
recipe  or am I OTL ?

Before you try decocting this malt I'd suggest you read up on the
traditional process used.  Most HB books claim that mash
thickness for a decoction mash is similar to modern
infusion mashes, *BUT* M&BS and Kunze (both authoritative)
suggest thinner mashes for decoction  3.3-5:1 (1.66-2.5 qt/lb)
of pale beers.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:17:23 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Beta Glucans in Malt

I don't recall the exact citation, but I do recall reading an article which 
indicated that the level of beta glucans in finished malt was controlled 
almost entirely by the maltster.  Must've been the JASBC or JIB 
something.  To be honest I'm surprised that the folks at Miller don't know 
this already.   Maybe I can dig this one out of the basement this 
weekend.  Steve?
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:03:38 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Brewing binges and forgetfulness...

"Lawrence H. Smith" <lsmith at sover.net> wrote of his 3-1/2 year old 
porter that he bottled this July.

The questions is, how did it taste?  Did it hold up well?

I assume you used fresh yeast?

>OG 1.076-ish
>ale yeast, dry
>1/18/97 1.044
>3/9/97 1.040
>  ...
>7/26/2001 1.035-ish

That still is a fairly low apparent attenuation.  I wonder why.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:27:23 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: re:scoring competition 20/50 or 20 out of 100

NJ wrote
>Is it possible to mention scoring results as 20/50 (20 pts out of the
>maximum 50 pts). In some competitions (at least in The Netherlands) the

>maximum score is 100 pts.

Once again our european friends are one-upping us with their "metric"
beer judging system.  We Americans are very proud, stubborn people who
seem to be stuck with that stupid British-based system of measuring
everything.

Well, I guess it could be worse.  At least the BJCP scoring system does
not use halfs, quarters, eighths, sixteenths etc.

Don





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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Hertz <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Budvar vs. Czechvar

I just wanted to ask those who have tasted Budvar in
the Czech Repub. if they think the "Czechvar", now
being imported into the U.S., is as good in their
opinions.  I know there's a certain extra excitement
to drinking a beer at its source, especially one as
famous at Budvar and obviously the rigors of importing
a beer take a toll, but I was wondering how people
view the two.  I tasted Czechvar when it first came
out, and thought it was very good-preferable to
Pilsner Urquell in my opinion, but I guess I was
expecting angels to sing and bright lights to flash as
I took my first sip, but obviously, its beer, not nirvana.



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:40:32 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Beer Baking

Jeff Renner sends us what looks like a wonderful recipe for German pretzels
and adds:

"Please note that this post is Copyright 2001 by me because I intend
to us it as a basis for a Zymurgy article.  Remember, you saw it here
first!  I welcome feedback that may help me make the article better."

Here's a suggestion: why not a series of recipes for baked foods that
traditionally accompany or contain beer?  You're probably better qualified
than anyone else here to write such an article, Jeff.  Here's what I've been
looking for: I have a friend who is of Belgian extraction who makes amazing
Belgian waffles, but she won't give me the recipe. All I know is that
they're leavened with yeast, not baking powder, and I suspect she puts beer
in there as well as they have a wonderful nutty/malty flavour.   I would
love to try them topped with ice cream and drizzled with some "dessert
stout" sent to me by the infamous Brian Lundeen.

So, do you have such a recipe in your pocket as well, Jeff?

Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://strangebrew.ca



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:05:59 -0700
From: Mark W Wilson <mwwilson at ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Re-brewing for competition? 


The advantages of re-brewing will vary greatly with style.  This is what
happened to me in the AHA Nationals a few years ago.  I entered a 1.032 OG
Mild, and scored in the mid 40's.  The judges really liked it, one of them
even mentioned it on his website.

By the second round, (~2 months later) the beer had fallen apart.  The
judges ripped it, scoring in the mid 20's.  And I agreed with them!  My
copies at home had fallen apart, too.  Oxidation was setting in.  If I were
to do it again with any light style I would not think twice before
re-brewing.  

The fragility of lighter beers, especially for homebrewers, undoubtedly
contributes to the imbalance of big beers winning competitions, given that
many of the lighter styles are more difficult to brew.

 -Mark




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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:15:03 -0600
From: "Joel Halpine" <jhalpine at esu4.org>
Subject: thermal mass for picnic cooler

I have seen several comments lately over thermal mass for containers.  Can
anyone help me with a quirk I seem to experience?  I mash in the 5-gal
cooler.  Generally, I use .3125gal/lb of grain.  Generally, I do a little
preheating of the cooler.  I admit  to not being scientific about that:
throw in a couple gallons hot water, swish and let sit.  Problem is my
mashes are always lower than the "math" predicts.  eg: 11.5 lbs grains at 68
degrees and  3.59 gallons water.  According to what I have learned, to get a
rest as 155, I should heat the mash water to 171 degrees.  I end up with a
mash around 150.  It really isn't a big problem, because I know to heat it
up more than the formulas predict, but I still just want to know.

Thanks,

Joel


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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: 3rd Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open

Final week for entries in the 3rd Annual PSBO,
Columbia, S.C.  A great competition for an unusual
beer to have a chance at the BOS round...check it
out...

Visit our site for details.   

http://www.sagecat.com/teaser2001.htm







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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:01:56 -0400
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Breweries and History

Hello,

I have accumulated quite a few beer signs over time. I have thought could I
get a sign or other piece of memoriabilia from every Brewery of the modern
era (1900 and up) or at least try to?   I looked for books on the net and
the only one I could find is Beer Signs For The Collector by Faragher. Are
there other or better books that list US breweries and a little history on
each?

David B. Craft



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:46:49 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: competitions

Robert Paolino writes of re-brewing for competitions:

> If the competition explicitly permits it, it's hard to blame 
> someone for
> taking advantage of the opportunity.  That said, I think 
> allowing it is
> a bad idea. 
> 
> Ethical dilemmas aside (well, not completely put aside), if 
> you re-brew
> you're entering a different beer in the second round, not the 
> beer that
> got you there.  Remember that we're talking about homebrewing.

Robert, your last line there sums up things perfectly. We're talking about
homebrewing. As such, I feel use of the phrase "ethical dilemna" loses some
of its impact. I can see ethical dilemnas relating to stem cell research,
abortion, euthanasia, retaliation for terrorist acts, etc. I have a little
problem applying it right now to homebrew competitions.

However, I will counter your arguments with a few of my own. First, we have
to accept that beer (in many styles) is a relatively short-lived product.
Since qualifying events can be months before the finals, I feel it is unfair
to the brewers to force them to enter old beer, especially when someone
qualifying in a later competition gets to enter a beer closer in character
to the beer that qualified.

These competitions are between brewers. Beers don't climb out of their
boxes, travel cross-country and challenge another beer to a taste-off
(clearly a death match if there ever was one). WE are the ones competing.
Competitions are about brewers competing against each other, where the beers
they brewed are the standard by which they are judged. When athletes qualify
for the Olympics, are they expected to give the same performance as in their
qualifying meets? If someone jumps higher, or runs faster, or throws farther
at the Olympics, do we say, "No, sorry, you didn't do that well when you
qualified, so we're only going to base your finish here on your previous
performance". Think of these competitions the same way. In round 1, Tom,
Dick and Harry emerged as the best brewers of say, a Czech Pilsner. In round
2, what happened in round 1 and why doesn't really matter. It's a whole new
ball game. Tom, Dick and Harry are going head to head (pun intended, I'm
shameless) to see who puts forth the best Czech Pilsner. 

In any given competition, let the brewers compete with what they feel is
their best effort, whether its a fresh batch or the original one. It should
be their call, and if they guess wrong, demsda breaks. Besides, competitions
are based on an honour system, and if someone wants to cheat, they will
cheat. If someone tweaks their batch to produce a better beer, so be it.
They run the risk of tweaking it the other way. Even if there was no rule
allowing re-brewed entries, how would the people at the second competition
know that this is a fresh batch? How would they even know its made by the
entering brewer? Some rules are clearly unenforceable. Rules for the sake of
being rules may make someone feel like they are exercising some control, but
they really accomplish nothing. Throw in the vagaries of judging, and what
gets entered, and how it finishes, and all the coulda-beens and
shoulda-beens,... well, its all got to be put into perspective. Its just a
homebrew competition. Relax, enjoy it for what it is, leave the ethical
musings for something worthy.

Brian


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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:00:19 -0600
From: "John Gubbins" <n0vse at idcomm.com>
Subject: Iodine

Gentlemen of the jury, I have a request to make of you.  For the last 2 years
I have used tincture of iodine to test for conversion of my mashes.  Usually
they are quite good. Since I've gone to a rotary sparge arm my gravities are
good and consistent.

In a passing comment in my favorite home brew shop today I mentioned this
recipe usually takes 1.5 hours to convert.  Boy did they come unglued!  The
first question was whether or not I was using the iodine test.  I answered to
the affirmative and was told it was just a magic trick.  Well I know that
tincture of iodine will turn black if in contact with complex starches and
will remain red in the company of simple sugars.  This is a scientific fact I
learned in 2nd grade with potatoes.

They said with today's highly modified malts that 45 minutes to an hour is all
it should take.

Agreed, said I, but have seen since I went from a triple step conversion, 128
deg, 150 deg 158 deg, to a simple single step at around 155 or so, it seems to
take longer.  I am mashing in a 5 gallon plastic bucket and wrap it in
insulating blankets.  It is not high tech, but it sure makes some superior
beer.

As an aside, I had a keg of this all grain and some Rocky Raccoon type beers
at a family reunion this summer.  When the dinner was over, the all grain was
drained.  Rocky was barely touched.

Any  comments on the use of iodine and whether we should bother are greatly
appreciated.

John Gubbins N0VSE at idcomm.com....



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Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:06:19 -0400
From: Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Finishing Big Beer

Charley asks if Scottish ale yeast is the thing to use to finish a RIS...

I made a 1.102 RIS last May that was fermented with 1968 from a (just 
finished) pale ale and stopped at 1.035, very similar to Charley's 
experience.  I also made two other beers and one braggot around that same 
time, all 1.100 - 1.105 that were fermented with ale yeasts, and all of 
them became sluggish and were treated to a fresh dose of Wyeast Scots ale 
yeast.  All of them have fermented nicely to completion (and are now ready 
to bottle.....)  I had never used this yeast before, but this method of 
finishing was recommended to me by a friend of mine, and it worked well, 
and I will use it again.

Interestingly, though, I liked this yeast so much that I used it in a large 
starter to ferment a nutrient loaded 1.132 date mead and it stopped at 
1.080.....kinda like date syrup right now.

Are there any recommendations for a relatively neutral ale yeast that will 
stand up to this thick date mead?  White Labs has a yeast they will offer 
in November that they say will go to 25% alcohol, so maybe that is the 
one.  I would be interested to hear of others that might be more readily 
available.

Cheers!

David Sherfey
Warwick NY



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