---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  L-O-N-G Secondary ("Tim R")
  Re: First brew, program request (gsferg)
  Re: Using a camp Chef indoors (Pet Rabbits & CO problems?) (gsferg)
  Theory and Practice ("Dennis Collins")
  Decoction confusion (David Harsh)
  Re: Using a camp Chef indoors (Ed Jones)
  Location, location, location (Jeff Renner)
  pseudo-decoction (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Freezing Wort ("Houseman, David L")
  Expertise on wheat? ("Ray Daniels")
  First runnings (TomAGardner)
  Teeshirt Idea (Phil Wilcox)
  6th Annual Music City Brew-Off (Stephen Johnson)
  HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status (Pat Babcock)


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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:07:10 -0400
From: "Tim R" <par8head at earthlink.net>
Subject: L-O-N-G Secondary

Hello all,

I am a relatively novice brewer (compared to those who write here it
appears) and have a quick question.  I brewed a batch of Pumpkin Ale last
November.  I racked it into the secondary sometime in December, and there it
still sits, covered with a black t-shirt, and much to my dismay.  It is
still crystal clear, and seems happy.  I of course am a little disappointed
in my self for letting it sit so long, but am still interested in the final
product.  What do you think?  I know tasting will be the TRUE test, but how
long can beer sit in the secondary?

Thanks in advance and forgive me for my Homebrew Sin............

LDBW. . .

Timmy
par8head at earthlink.net
AIM: par8head5



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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:23:17 -0400
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Re: First brew, program request

>Subject: First brew. program request
>
>Hello fellow brewers.
>
>I have made my first brew and will bottle it this evening.
>I am looking for a easy program for making beer labels.

There have be be dozens of them out there for Windows platforms. I'd look at 
Tucows (www.tucows.com) and see what you find.

I'm more interested in easily removable, perhaps even reusable (?? What a 
concept!) labels. Stick-on, peel-off maybe?

Right now my "labeling" consists of a number inked on the lid. I've spent a 
lotta time removing labels and cleaning bottles, and I don't wanna have to go 
through that again. It would be one thing if I only brewed one kind of beer, 
but there's no guaranteeing that I'll put the same beer in the same bottle 
twice.

George-




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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:40:49 -0400
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Re: Using a camp Chef indoors (Pet Rabbits & CO problems?)

>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:06:10 -0500
>From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
>Subject: Using a camp Chef indoors (Pet Rabbits & CO problems?)
>
>My girlfriend has some pet rabbits at the other end of the 
>basement. I'm wondering if they're going to have any problems from 
>CO. People use gas stoves & ranges all winter with no problems 
>but furnaces & water heaters are vented.

Just make sure you have some outside venting going on. Not enough to freeze 
things, but enough to get some fresh air in and mixing things around. CO is 
heavy and sinks. If you do setup your detector (not a bad idea), keep it close 
to the floor. If you crack a couple of windows and use a small fan to keep the 
air circulating I have a hard time believing you'd have a problem. You might 
even appreciate the cooling effect as well since beer making can generate a 
lotta heat! You might consider an exhaust fan to carry off the steam.

If the rabbits do die anyways, you can always eat them. Just tell your 
girlfriend it's chicken.

George-

- -- 
George S. Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Oracle DBA, Programmer, Humorist
PGP Key: http://clary.gwi.net/gsferg/gsferg at clary.asc
- --------------
I am a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.





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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:30:51 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Theory and Practice

A friend of mine passed this along and I thought it might be good to post
here:

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 09:42:05 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Decoction confusion

Stephen Alexander <steve-alexander at att.net> wrote in #3573
> Dave - I find your comments confused and confusing.  I said nothing of
> conversion ('conversion' isn't  'modification'!).   I did say that decocting
> overmodified malts was nearly useless.   Unless you claim that Celebrator
> and Salvator are made by decocting overmodified malts I don't see your
> point.

My statement was based on what you said in #3478:
> ....decocting well modified
> malts is a lot like driving an off-road 4x4 vehicle on city streets - it
> looks and sound  'cool', but it's just a waste of energy and money.

You said "well modified" , not "over modified", but that's really not
relevant.  It was my goal to point out that there are SOME CASES where
decocting, even when using a well modified malt, is appropriate.  I'm
well aware that conversion is not modification (and your implication is
insulting, although not unexpected) - my reference to conversion was to
point out that although there is no *requirement* that a succesful mash
include a decoction program, the style may make the extra effort
worthwhile (like the doppelbock I mentioned).  

For the record, I make no claims as to the Budvar undermodified malt -
I've never brewed with it and can't address its proper use.

Many people (including you, Steve) have spread the "decoction is not
necessary" mantra and less experienced brewers treat it at as an
absolute.  My post was meant to dispel that misconception.  It may not
be "necessary".  At times, it is, however, "desirable".  

> I'm still awaiting your theoretical arguments...

Grad school was a long time ago, Steve, and my Ph.D. advisor was the
last person that got to make that sort of demand of me and have me care
as a result.  Its a matter of priorities, and the subject is one that I
will not visit on the digest again (as I have previously stated).  

Dave Harsh							Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:47:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: Re: Using a camp Chef indoors

> Of course no one could guarantee there won't be a problem with 
> using the camp chef indoors but I was wondering if anyone has 
> done this in the winter when the windows are closed & with pets in 
> the basement? 

I use my camp chef in my basement, but I open up four windows. Two windows
on one side of the basement have strong exhaust fans blowing outside and
two windows on the opposite side of the basement are opened to provide intake
air. I run the fans for 10 minutes before I even turn on the burner to get
a good draft going, even in the winter.

I have the 35K camp chef and I can get a good hard boil even at 13 gallons.
I too don't have a soot problem and I get a clean burn. I'm going to add
another burner for my HLT and will use another 35K burner. Even though
I feel my venting is sufficient, I'm converting the burners to natural gas
for a cleaner burn. 

I feel nervous about doing what I do even with a strong vent system. There
is no way I would use the burner indoors w/o it. Someday I'll build a small
building out back and get the propane out of the house altogether.

- -- 
Ed Jones

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:50:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Location, location, location

"Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu> signed his post:

>  --frank in Buffalo (Jeff R., you finally got me to put my location!)

Hooray!  Now if we can just get the rest to do it, too.

So, here is my semi-annual plea.  HBD posters, please include your 
location.  It's a friendly thing to do, for one thing.  And it might 
turn out that there's another brewer you never knew just down the 
road from you.  And it might help us answer a question (how should I 
treat my water?), or result in an offer of help in person (like help 
in assessing an off flavor, or with a brew problem).

Cheers

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:26:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: pseudo-decoction

Brewers

I was going to try a pseudo-decoction last week for my 100% dark 
Durst Munich malt (40EBC) Dunkel, but I got too late a start.

The technique is to mash a half batch, bring this to a boil and boil 
for maybe 30 minutes, then add enough water of the proper temperature 
to achieve a proper mash temperature when you add the second half of 
the malt and continue as usual.  This should achieve some of the 
flavor benefits (if there are any, wink, wink) with a lot less 
trouble.

I wonder if anyone has ever done this?  I may have even read it here 
(perhaps Hubert Hanghofer of Austria), or may have thought it up 
myself.

BTW,

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:43:49 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing Wort

I don't freeze wort but I do "can" wort.  I sanitize typical mason jars,
1/2pint, 1 pint and 1 quart, used for canning.  Hot wort goes into these.
The lids are boiled and applied.  The jars then go into a boiling water bath
or canning pressure cooker for about 20 minutes.  They then sit on the
counter until cool and the tops collapse from the vacuum indicating a good
seal.  These will stay good for literally years although I use them sooner.
I keep them in a cool, dark place in my basement until needed to make
starters.  Simply pop the lid, flame the rim and pour into a starter flask.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:59:53 -0500
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Expertise on wheat?

I'm looking for someone with some expertise in the area of wheat to write
about the nature of this grain and its use in brewing for Zymurgy next year.
Anyone out there want to volunteer?  How about pointing me toward someone
who may be qualified but modest about their knowledge?

Thanks for the help!

Ray Daniels
Editor-in-Chief
Zymurgy & The New Brewer
E-mail:  ray at aob.org

Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.

For more info see: www.beertown.org




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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:44:50 EDT
From: TomAGardner at cs.com
Subject: First runnings

Darrell, I have 'spurmented with first runnings several times. I 
usually brew single infusion mashes and often use single batch 
sparges or parti-gyle. My 1.25 qt/lb mashes usually have first 
runnings of close to 1.082 s.g. (one 1.1 qt/lb mash yielded 1.096 
s.g. first runnings). My grains and mashtun retain 0.1 gallon/lb 
(not my idea to switch units, they are just the usual one for each 
measurement). So 1.25 qt/lb = 1.25 qt/4 qt/gal/lb = 0.31 gal/lb 
mash. Subtract 0.1 gal/lb retained by my grain/mashtun from the 
0.31gal/lb you started with and I eventually end up with 0.21 gal 
of 1.082 wort/lb of grain (using my system). I usually plan my 
recipe using percentages of grain and then work backward to 
calculate the amounts necessary. You will need to find your 
constants for your system (s.g. for a specific mash thickness, 
and amount of liquor retained by the grain/tun combination). If 
doing parti-gyle brews I usually get ~50% of the remaining extract 
with each successive batch sparge.


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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:44:51 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Teeshirt Idea

Ok Pat,

You now have my attention...at least until the Vicaden and Motrin 800's
kick in again... then its back to happy marshmellow land...

The hard part about designing a teeshirt for the HBD is that it is so
nebulous to begin with. About the best thing you can do to represent the
HBD it take a picture of a computer screen with the HBD homepage up and
a beer sitting next to the keyboard. But who would really want a picture
of that on a Teeshirt? And how many of us cheap bastards would be
willing to pay for the photostatic printing it take to make it look
nice? Not too many i'd guess...

So what we need is something cheap and simple to produce, and includes a
nebulous group of 2,500 some brewers. My first idea was to use Jeff
Renners head as the center of the brewing universe and draw simple line
art beer glasses in orbit around it. But that puts too much of one
personality into a group entity. So maybe i put the HBD.org in a big
pint glass and orbit the other glasses around it? This is what I started
on...

I came to the conclusion it was going to be to plain. It needs more
character. Using just Jeff or Pat or Karl is playing to exclusivity, and
thats not what we are about. So how about something from all of us? Our
email addresses? Our signatures! Thats my brilliant Idea. Put our
handwritten signatures under a glass of your choice, scatter them
randomly in orbit around the HBD pint glass. Sounds Awesome.

Now how to do it. If you want your name and glass type to be considered
for the shirt send it to me. Attach a photo of the glass and your
electronic signature  and Ill see if I can make it happen.

What? you don't have an electronic sig yet? o.k. Here is my proceedure
for making Electronic sig's. Starting withthe right pen and paper is
actually important. You want plain paper, a blank white 4x6 card is
perfect. It is heavy enough not to bleed through and shiney enough to be
uniform surface.

Black Pens. Ballpoint is bad. Sharpie is bad. (too fat) a
"roller-ball/Uni-ball" or fine tip felt marker are best. I am looking
for good separation of letters and ledigbility. Black. Black. Black.

Practice several times on the same card. Indicate your favorite one.
Doodle your beer glass type and stick a postcard stamp  on it and drop
it in the snail mail to me at Phil Wilcox 712 Woodfield Dr. Jackson, MI
49203.

So you have a scanner and want to save the 21 cents eh? ok. Scan the sig
black and white (line-art) at about 500% size (~4x10") at 200 dpi. This
should yield a picture about 2100 x 840 pixals. and about 228k in size.
save this as a .bmp file and email it to me.

If you have photoshop you can convert it to greyscale, then select just
the black and save the dancing ant path you have as a path. Save that as
a clipping path and export it to illustrator. Send me the illustrator
file... ill do the rest.

Where to find pic's of glasses....most major breweries have thier own
web site now, just find them and snatch them... or try these:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cyril.pagniez/Trappist.htm#Pleasure

http://www.beergear.com/

http://home.plex.nl/~omniron/glasses.html

http://www.beersteinshop.com/mcart/

Happy glass hunting!!!  and if anyone finds a US source for Koelsch
Stange's let me know, I need a few...

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home brewer







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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:53:58 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: 6th Annual Music City Brew-Off

The Music City Brewers are proud to announce their 6th Annual Music City
Brew-Off on October 27, 2001, at Boscos Nashville Brewery. Entries are due
on Oct. 12. See our webpage at http://www.musiccitybrewers.com for specific
information regarding entry fees, where to ship or drop off entries, and
registration forms and bottle ID labels.

As in the past, we will have a special guest in town for the weekend. This
year, our featured guests will be Paul Gatza of the AHA/IBS/AOB and Chuck
Skypeck, recently elected as Chairman of the IBS Board, along with locals
Fred Scheer and Dave Miller. Also, we will have close to $1500 in prizes
(possibly more) to give out to winners, along with ribbons for 1st, 2nd,
and 3rd place beers.

Events include: Thursday IBS forum featuring talks by Fred Scheer and Paul
Gatza; Friday AHA forum featuring talks by Dave Miller and Paul Gatza;
Friday night social featuring home made sausages, brats, and plenty of
homebrew; Saturday judging (1 flight) and BOS, awards ceremony, and pub
crawl around Nashville; Sunday brunch featuring talk by Chuck Skypeck.

For additional details, please see our website or contact either Steve
Scoville at scovillesp at aol.com or if you are planning to come judge,
contact me at stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu.

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers



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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:50:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

After a trip to the PO Box, The HBD Community Red Cross Fund
stands at $730. Thanks to all who have thus far answered the
call - both to this fund and to others. It is heartening to see
how much has been raised to help those who suddenly found
themselves bereft of incomes and/or loved ones. Not only our
hearts went out to them, but our support and lifes blood. God
bless you all.

Once again, if you wish to donate to the Red Cross and would
like to have your donation go twice as far, please donate
through the Match Fund. If received in time for me to postmark
the entire fund by 10/15 (I will probably mail the check 10/13
to ensure it receives the prescribed postmark) these funds will
receive a match. If received after, I will try to identify other
opportunities to have the funds matched (there are still
several public matches in my area), but will forward them to the
Red Cross regardless. (That's getting pretty repetitive, isn't
it?)

And note of thanks to those that have worked so steadfastly to
keep the peace and prevent losses to other innocents and promote
understanding over this incident. You know who you are.

Please keep in mind that those of middle eastern descent in the
US and Canada are here because they didn't want to be over
there; because they did not embrace the conditions, politics
and/or culture of their former home - much the same reason our
ancestors came to these shores.  Surely, they do not want to see
the conditions that precipitated their exodus duplicated in
their new home.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday

============ Reprinted from HBD #3710 ==============

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Tee-Shirt Contest!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

No, no - this is NOT an opportunity to douse tee-shirt clad
beauties with water.

As you (may or may not) know, the HBD has been getting our
merchandising act s-l-o-w-l-y together. So far, we've managed to
get button production under way in support of the many
conventions, competitions and conferences we HBDers go to, and
at which we pass each other like so many ships in the night,
having no way to recognize each other...

Our next sally into the battle of marketing is tee shirts! One
problem: what goes on it?! That brings us to the HBD Tee-Shirt
Contest! Here's an opportunity to stew your creative juices, let
them congeal in technicolor, and spew 'em onto the chest (or
back) of HBD members everywhere!

We're looking to have designs for the HBD Tee-Shirt created by
those who know the HBD best: you. So create your artwork, render
it to gif or jpeg format, and send it to teeshirt at hbd.org. We'll
publish the pic onto the HBD website, and provide voting buttons
so that site visitors can vote for the 2002 HBD Tee-Shirt
design. The design netting the highest votes by contest deadline
goes to production, with attribution to the winner! The winner
will also receive a free shirt bearing their design, plus a HBD
button containing their name and Chief Clothier as the second
line. Their photo and design will also appear on the HBD
website.

Legal mumbo-jumbo:

All designs, whether winning or not, become the sole property of
HBD.ORG to use or disposition as they see fit. Contest is open
to anyone wishing to submit a design. HBD.ORG reserves the right
to not publicly display any design deemed obscene, in poor
taste, or counter to the HBD.ORG philosophy without notification
to the submitter. Designs must not contain copyrighted or
trademarked images, unless copyright or trademarked by HBD.ORG.
Winning design may be rendered or modified suitably for silk
screening and/or for display on the HBD.ORG website.

Contest begins with publication of this notice. Contest is
expected to complete 10/15/01. See http://hbd.org for details as
they are developed.

All proceeds generated through HBD merchandise are used to
recoup the cost of said merchandise and the cost of maintaining
the HBD.ORG presence on the internet.







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