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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? (more) ("Stephen Alexander")
  Full-wort boils ("Daniel Gurzynski")
  Re: Malt fermentability ("RJ")
  Re: Pretzel recipe? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Full-wort boils ("Drew Avis")
  ANN: StrangeBrew 1.6 Released ("Drew Avis")
  problem with Boss Bottles? ("Charles Brandt")
  Recipie Formulation ("Abby, Davey, Ellen and Alan")
  Propane Burners ("Tim R")
  Pretzel Results ("Donald D. Lake")
  RE: making a starter ("Houseman, David L")
  Chiller Woes (Richard Foote)
  planispiral chiller construction (Rob Dewhirst)
  New York (Aleman)
  RE: My take on Wort Chillers (Brian Levetzow)
  Polygamy Porter News Article ("Bret Mayden")
  BREWING VOCABULARY ("jps")
  Temperature Control ("df ds")


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:05:40 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts?

JeffR notes ...

> Munich malt definitely has less fermentability.  You may remember
> that last week Steve Alexander addressed the question of less
> fermentability of higher kilned malts due to low beta-amylase levels
> when he addressed a question I posed (referring to British malts.

(and asked a similar question offline)

PA malts have low BA because of the higher final (dry) kilning temperatures,
and Munch also have lower BA levels as a rule.  I'd speculate that is
because of a temp cycle when drying. Munich has a hot temp cycle when it is
still damp to develop the color and flavor.   I know it's confusing, but the
beta-amylase is more easily denatured in the damp malt at 90C than in dry
malt at 110C because of substrate stabilization.

 -Steve




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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:19:06 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at att.net>
Subject: Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? (more)

 .....
Also Dean's 158F mash-in and thin (1.66qt/lb) mash thickness aren't
conducive to high attenuation.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:04:28 -0500
From: "Daniel Gurzynski" <daniel at buffnet.net>
Subject: Full-wort boils

In response to "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: Full-wort boils

In the past I have noticed it is easier to scorch in a pot when the liquid
is quite thick as it would be with a large amount of extract in a 2 gallon
pot. As well your hop utilisation will probably not be as good due to the
increased density of the liquid. Then again there are not too many 6 gallon
brew pots out there and they could be a bit intimidating to lift when full,
stir to the bottom, etc. One is sometimes forced to compromised so maybe use
as much water as you can in the boil and add the rest in the primary.





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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:05:55 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Malt fermentability


From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

<snip>
"I believe there was ample opportunity for the yeast (if it had become cold
shocked) to consume any fermentables that were available, and my conclusion
is that the wort simply was not very fermentable."

"We've all read the tables of the amount of extract we can get from various
malts, and these generally are right on target for obtaining desired
original gravities, but nowhere have I read anything on the fermentability
of wort obtained from these.  Such would be another very useful malt
parameter to publish.  (I'm of the camp that believes there is little
difference between most brewing yeasts in their ability to ferment a given
wort.)"

Fred,

The tables are fine for OG... However, IMHO, you should guesstimate FG by
using the following method:
OG based on all of the grain & adjuncts
minus OGX based on non-fermentable grain = OGY

OGY times the expected % attenuation of the yeast (based on temp./time/etc)
= FGX

OG - FGX = expected FG

example:
OG = 1.060 = 60
OGX = 1.015 = 15  (this is equal to 25% of the grist - I wouldn't use this
amt, but from the post I can see that some of ya have)
60 - 15 = 45 OGY x %AT (72%) = 32.4 FGX

60 - 32.4 = 27.6 FG, expected

NOTE: This equation is only good for regular ale & lager yeast strains, some
wine & other types of yeast/bacteria are able to degrade what would be
normally non-fermentable sugars, so this method does not apply, to them.

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region of NH





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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:26:29 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Pretzel recipe?

Mark Linton <cryptcl at earthlink.net> wrote:

>I joined the list a little late, and have been following the lye/pretzel
>recipe thread.  I keep hoping that someone will attribute an earlier post
>with the recipe attached.  No luck so far.
>
>Would someone be so kind as to post it again, or email it to me directly?

Glad to, Mark, but since you are new to the list, maybe I should tell 
you that you can search the archives from a link at http://hbd.org or 
directly on Spencer's computer (where the archives live) at 
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/dothread.  I see that two 
people have already done such a search for pretzels.

While you're at HBD.org, check out the FAQ page.  Always a good idea 
for newcomers to any group.

I should let folks know that you can successfully make this without 
any ingredients other than flour, water, salt and yeast in the dough, 
although the other ingredients make a little richer, softer pretzel.

I made them the other day with 1/3 cup baking soda per quart of water 
for the simmer and they turned out fine, although with a less intense 
"pretzel" flavor than with lye.

Hope you make these.  The do go great with any beer, but especially a 
Munchener.

Jeff



Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:05:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner`at`mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Home made German Pretzels?

Please note that this post is Copyright 2001 by me because I intend
to us it as a basis for a Zymurgy article.  Remember, you saw it here
first!  I welcome feedback that may help me make the article better.

Ray - what do you think?  Good article topic?

  -=-=-=-=-=-

In Homebrew Digest #3746, "Brian M Dotlich" <BMDotlich`at`cs.com> of
Dayton OH wrote:

>In keeping with the spirit of Octoberfest, I was wondering if anyone knows
>of a recipe for German soft pretzels?

Just happen to have one here in my pocket.  This is an recipe from an
old German baker here in Ann Arbor that I got via a fellow baker.  (I
have a wholesale French bread "micro-bakery"). My friend got it about
30 years ago and started his business by making these and selling
them on Saturday mornings to the huge football crowds heading to
Michigan Stadium.  Did pretty well.  I have made up to 20 dozen with
a crowd of volunteers for our elementary school's ice cream social as
a fund raiser.  They go like hotcakes, err, well more like hot
pretzels, I guess.

A few quirky things about pretzels.  First, in order to get that
distinctive pretzel flavor, you have to simmer them a short time in
lye water.  Otherwise, they are just funny shaped soft salt bagels.
Strangely, after they are baked, the lye disappears.  perhaps the
acidity of the dough neutralizes it.

It isn't a dangerously strong solution (1 Tablespoon [15 ml] dry lye
flakes per quart (liter) of water, but you don't want to get it in
your eyes, and even on the skin it can irritate.  If you are making
these with children, it's best to use a baking soda (sodium
bicarbonate) solution.  Of course, you need much more baking soda to
get the same flavor.  I suppose 1/4-1/2 cup per quart.  It's been a
long time since I used soda - our kids are grown now.

Another thing is that after you simmer them, you need to bake them on
a non-aluminum cookie sheet, and as they are wet, they will want to
stick like crazy.  It helps to drain them a moment on an old tea
towel before placing them on the cookie sheet.

The old German non-stick solution was to melt bee's wax onto the
sheet.  The flavor of bee's wax is actually a traditional part of
these old pretzels, but I prefer to use silicon-treated baker's
parchment.  You can get this in rolls at kitchen stores.  I get it in
boxes of 1000 18"x24" sheets.  Perhaps a friendly baker in your town
would give you a few sheets.  I don't suppose I need to tell you what
you can offer in return.  I also suspect that a modern non-stick
cookie sheet might work, but 25 years ago, I tried a Teflon coated
sheet and they stuck to that.  Make sure it's lye-proof.

Pretzel salt is an important part of the authentic pretzel
experience.  It is composed of coarse pellets about a millimeter
across and looks rather like sleet.  Perhaps you could get those for
the same exchange as the parchment from a friendly baker who makes
pretzels.  Otherwise, kosher salt or other coarse salt will work, but
these are flakes and not as appropriate.

The milk and shortening (I'm sure the original recipe used lard) and
all-purpose flour are key to making these soft - don't use bread
flour.  Some amounts are by weight.  This is much more sensible than
volume, and European home recipes use this.  I hope you have a scale
for your hops and grains.  Otherwise, the ingredient packages may
help convert to volume.

This recipe works well in a large mixer or food processor, and I have
formatted the recipe for this (see note for hand).

***********

Recipe
German Soft Pretzels
Makes 1 dozen

o 2 packets dry baker's yeast
o 1/4 cup water 105-115 degrees F (40-45C)
o 1 ounce dry milk powder
o 3 ounces shortening
o 1/4 cup sugar
o 1 teaspoon (5 ml) salt
o 19 ounces all purpose flour (about 4 cups)
o enough additional water to make a soft dough - about 1 cup (note -
my notes say 3/4 cup, but I think this is a mistake - I'll make up a
batch sometime soon and check).

Rehydrate the yeast in the 1/4 cup warm water and a pinch of sugar.
Be sure to use a container like a plastic cup that won't suck all the
heat away.  It should foam up in a few minutes.

Mix the rest of the dry ingredients in the mixer bowl or food
processor *.  Add the yeast water when it's well hydrated and foamy,
then turn on the mixer or processor and add water until you get a
soft dough.  Continue mixing according to manufacturer's instructions
until well kneaded.

*  If you make the dough by hand, add the rehydrated yeast and other
ingredients with half the flour to a large bowl, stir with a wooden
spoon until mixed, then stir in as much of the rest of the flour as
possible, then turn out onto a work surface and knead in enough of
the rest of the flour to get a soft dough and knead it until it is
elastic and smooth, about five minutes.

Let the dough rise covered until doubled, probably 30 minutes with
all this yeast.

Now prepare the lye water.  Put cold water in a non-reactive pot, add
1 tablespoon lye crystals (like Red Devil) for each quart.  Add the
lye to the water, not the other way around!  Use normal precautions.
You're big boys and girls.  Bring to a simmer.

Preheat the oven to 400 degrees F.

When the dough is doubled, divide into 12 equal pieces, roll out into
18" lengths, then twist into pretzel shape.  This is easy to do but
hard to describe with pictures.

Start with the dough in an upside-down "U", then cross the legs twice
into a double twist.  Next flip the top down over the legs and press
each part of the loop onto the legs where they cross, making a tack
weld.

Set aside on a towel and shape the rest of the pieces.  Then starting
with the first one and using a slotted ladle or spatula (not your
fingers), immerse each pretzel in the simmering lye water for 30
seconds to one minute.  They should expand and begin to float.
Remove it and place on a wet tea-towel to drain and sprinkle with
pretzel salt.

Now arrange on prepared cookie sheet (you will probably need to use
two cookie sheets and bake one at a time) and bake until done.  In my
oven, this takes about 9 minutes.  While they are cooling a bit, pour
yourself a well deserved pint and then enjoy the pretzels.

These freeze quite well when cool.  Thaw them and pop them into the
oven to reheat or gently microwave them if you must.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:57:03 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Full-wort boils

Bill Pierce repeats an often heard piece of advice, that "extract tang" is
caused by boiling only part of the wort.

Now, as an advocate and practitioner of partial wort boils, I have never
found my beers to suffer from "extract tang," except for the few occasions
early on when I was tempted by cans of extract on sale.  These cans were, of
course, old stock the brew shop was trying to clear out.  My conclusion?
"Extract tang" is synonymous with old and stale malt extract.

Barley wines, tripels, and IPAs are concentrated wort beers that happen to
not have been topped up with water after the boil, and I've tasted many fine
examples of these styles that do not suffer from "extract tang", both
extract-based and all-grain recipes.  My second conclusion?  You can make
very good beer with a concentrated wort boil if you compensate for a few
factors: 1) decreased hop utilization, 2) increased darkening due to
carmelization (which is not as pronounced as you'd think), and 3) potential
contamination from impure topping-up water.

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario [694.5km, 56.4]


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:02:56 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: ANN: StrangeBrew 1.6 Released

I'm very pleased to announce the release of StrangeBrew 1.6 homebrew recipe
calculator and database.  And I'd like to extend a special thanks to the
HBDers who helped out beta testing this version - you guys are great!  As
with previous versions, 20% of registration fees are donated to the HBD
server fund.  Also new in this release, the software will continue to run
after the 30 day "trial" period, although with some features disabled.  You
can read all the details and download the software at
http://www.strangebrew.ca/

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario [694.5km, 56.4]


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:30:50 -0500
From: "Charles Brandt" <chuckuiuc at illinoisalumni.org>
Subject: problem with Boss Bottles?

Has anybody ever had problems with the flip-top bottles from Boss Bottles 
(of Bellingham,WA)??  As an experiment, I recently ordered a bunch of the 
500ml flip-tops and bottled an APA as usual.  To my surprise, I've found that
 roughly one out of every three bottles is flat!  I've been homebrewing for a 
little over a year and have been bottling with a combination of EZ-cap and 
Grolsch flip-tops and have never had such a problem with carbonation.  I'm
 a little hard-pressed to believe that it's the brew because:
1) many of the bottles were OK
2) I primed the secondary with additional Wyeast 1056 a day or two before 
bottling, and
3) this has never happened with my old bottles & gaskets (which I've cycled 
through ~10 batches to date; OG's ranging from 1.050 to 1.090).

Any suggestions from the group would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Chuck Brandt
 






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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:43:14 -0400
From: "Abby, Davey, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Recipie Formulation

I was thinking about my chocolate mild and thinking about Terry's
chocolate oranges.   I like chocolate ornage anytime.   So, I am
thinking if I use WGV hops I may bet a citrusy thing happening.  So I
did that last night.   Then I thought about adding Belgian orange peel. 
How orangy is it?   I have never used it.    Well, that got me thinking
about Scandanavian / Russian breads I like that have rye, anise and
orange peel flavours.  I know "Hop and Glory" bitter from the Wessex
Co-op has licorice in it.   So if I make a beer with some rye malt and
belgian orange peel and licorice maybe I can immitate the flavours of
the bread in a glass.  Question:  has anyone used fennel seed - which
has a nice anise/licorice thing happening - in a beer.  I know some
seeds have killer oils that destroy heads.

Alan McLeod
PEI
Canada


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:06:49 -0500
From: "Tim R" <par8head at earthlink.net>
Subject: Propane Burners


I'm in the market for a propane burner.  I read the recent article in BYO
(Nov. 2001) Bring on the Heat.  I am planning on buying a propane burner and
am leaning towards the 30,000 BTU Cache Cooker sold by Williams
Brewing(http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=36605
&St=2585&St2=-69723412&St3=43732352&DS_ID=2&Product_ID=418&DID=7)  but also
noticed that the catalog Beer, Beer & More Beer (http://www.morebeer.com/)
sells a similar 70,000 BTU Camp Chef Cooker and a stainless steel 125,000
BTU multi-purpose burner.

Needless to say the SS 125K BTU is also very attractive.

I appreciate any advice anyone has.

Thanks!


Timmy
par8head at earthlink.net
AIM: par8head5



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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:32:58 -0500
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: Pretzel Results

I finally got around to try making pretzels this weekend using Jeff
Renner's recipe.  It was a fun learning experience, especially for my
daughter and niece who are both twelve years old.  Of course, they
squabbled over petty things as only girls that age can do.

The dough tasted wonderful although our skill level on making good
looking pretzels leaves something to be desired.  Some of them looked
like scones.  We had difficulty making the shape big and thin like
Auntie Anne's at the mall.  Our's were fat and too doughy.

On our next outing, I promised to take the girls to the mall and we'll
watch the experts and study their shaping techniques.

Thanks to Jeff Renner for providing us the opportunity of a fun(and
tasty) family experience.  We can't wait to do it again.

Don Lake
Orlando, FL




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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:51:10 -0600
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: making a starter

Dry yeast should be re-hydrated in water, NOT wort.  The dried yeast is not
ready for the sugars that are in wort until they prepare themselves for
fermentation by re-hydration.  I've attended several sessions on yeast and
this has been one of the consistent messages delivered.   With the newer,
purer dry yeasts available and better yeast management, I've begun to
successfully use dry yeast regularly...primarily it allows me to brew cost
effectively without having to plan days in advance.

Dave Houseman
SE PA


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:30:13 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Chiller Woes

Collective,

I had a rather unfortunate thing happen during a brew yesterday.  I was "in
the zone", and things were going along swingingly.  I was hitting all the
numbers.  I was brewing a CAP.  I hooked up a pre-chiller (coil of 1/2" Cu
tubing), as usual practice for lager brewing, to my Heart's Super Chiller.
I pitched my yeast starter into an empty fermenter and began wort flow
through the chiller.  Cooling water was on.  I was going about some
cleaning.  When I felt the side of the fermenter (plastic bucket) it felt
warm.  It was about half full at this point.  My yeast is in there!  I shut
things down and pondered the situation.  

Plenty of ice in pre-chiller bath--check
Chilling water running counter to wort flow--check
Cooling water exiting outlet hose--check
Cold (not hot) water entering chiller--check
Adequate flow rate of chilling water (turned to wide open)--check

I resumed wort flow.  I went outside to make sure I had flow (it was dark)
and felt the outlet water.  It was warm.  Usually when cooling water is on
full, it's cold.  I throttled back wort flow to almost a trickle.  I yanked
the wort outlet hose (wort still running) from the fermenter and ran it
over the back of my hand.  It was cold.  I finished filling the fermenter
and stirred.  I stuck in a thermometer.  It read 75F!  That means it was
warmer before the problem was discovered!  When I had finished (this was
the first of two fermenters) I plunged it into the pre-chiller ice bath and
left it there.  I filled the second fermenter using various--experimental
at this point--wort flows and with periodic back of hand testing.  The
second fermenter (glass carboy) felt strangely warmer than normal too.
Into the frig, sans yeast, with it.  

I am at a loss to explain this.  I've used the same set up many times with
great results.  Can anyone shed some light on this situation?  Could there
be some blockage inside my chiller?  Has anyone experienced anything
similar?  Am I brain dead?  What am I missing?  What harm has been done?  I
am having a crisis!  In the name of Gambrinus, you must help me!


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA 

"Holy global warming Batman!"--Robin, boy wonder





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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:50:36 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: planispiral chiller construction

For those of you who built planispiral chillers -- how did you make the 
spiral?  The spring-like tubing benders seem very very tedious for such a 
long length of tubing, as does filling the tubing with sand.



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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:52:40 +0000
From: Aleman <Aleman at brewmaster.demon.co.uk>
Subject: New York

Fellow brewers,

I find it quite stunning that in such a short period of time, I am yet
again offering my thoughts and sympathies to anyone who is in any way
affected by events in New York. I am sure that all my fellow brewers on
the UK home brew list feel very much the same way I do.

- -- 
God Bless America!
Tony Barnsley (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

UK HOMEBREW - A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK
              Managed by home brewers for home brewers


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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:24:44 -0500
From: Brian Levetzow <levetzowbt at home.com>
Subject: RE: My take on Wort Chillers

Bob Sheck says:

>With the immersion chiller, I just periodically use copper polish on it
>to remove the verdigris on the outside, then clean with Logic's A+ 
>to remove whatever gunk was in the copper polish, then rinse, 
>wipe down, rinse, rinse, rinse, then into the boil the last 
>10 minutes before the end of the boil.

Yikes!  I'm not sure if polishing the chiller is a good thing to do.

I, too, enjoy the simplicity of use and cleanup after use (high-pressure
squirt from the hose gets most of the gunk off).  When the gunk builds
up on mine to the point that I notice it, I heat up 3+ gallons of water
in my old 4 gal pot on the stove (not too hot, maybe 140F +/-).  I then
put in a couple scoops of OxyClean, incorporate, and immerse the chiller
for an overnight soaking.  By morning, all the gunk is gone, and the
copper actually looks pretty good.  And if the last batch was heavily
hopped, it might still be bubblin' the crud away by morning!

Beer me.
- -- 
+++++++++++++++
Brian Levetzow
~
Laurel, MD
[425.7, 118.5] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 02:21:02 +0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Polygamy Porter News Article

A little slice of Afghanistan, right here in the good ol' US of A....

Bret A. Mayden
Oklahoma City, OK
brmayden at hotmail.com



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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:04:12 -0500
From: "jps" <segedy at gsinet.net>
Subject: BREWING VOCABULARY

In the interest in broadening our minds while relaxing and having a homebrew
 ... M-W had a recent word of the day of interest to brewers:
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/mwwodarch.pl?Nov.09

Here's hoping your brew isn't vapid.




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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:27:06 +0000
From: "df ds" <lyle25 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Temperature Control

Hi All

I have just moved into the kegging game and have managed to score myself a 
dedicated beer fridge.
Does anyone know how to construct a thermostat to control the fridge so that 
I can dial in temperatures from 0 to 30 degrees celcius? Or, alternatively, 
if there is any such thing available on the opne market?

Thanks

Lyle
Australia



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