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Contents:
  more freezer talk (M340HILL)
  RE: Fermentap ("Bissell, Todd S")
  RE: Using Cornelius keg as secondary (John Wilkinson)
  ProstRate problems ("Peter Fantasia")
  Local Club Competitions ("Mark Tumarkin")
  mash compacting with pump ("Bridges, Scott")
  AHA 2nd Round Judging ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RE: Ice to cool wort ("Adam Warren")
  Re: Ice for cooling wort ("Steve Wood")
  Re: Ice for cooling wort ("Doug Hurst")
  Scaling Down (mohrstrom)
  Ice for cooling wort (Calvin Perilloux)
  re: Wort Aeration-Infection ("Steve Alexander")
  Buck (ALABREW)
  re: wheat yeast flavor ("Steve Alexander")
  Subject: __publication_only__ (susan woodall)
  ice for cooling ("Scott Basil")
  re: Wort Aeration-Infection (Jeff Renner)
  Laying down beer ("Mark Tumarkin")


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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:44:00 EST
From: M340HILL at aol.com
Subject: more freezer talk

Yet another caution about drilling freezers. Often a condenser line whith 
"hot" gas is routed near the door seal to prevent freezing the seal. I saw 
one freezer ruined by the installion of a pad lock.

                                                  

                                                                  Sincerely. 
Mark Hill
                                                                  Zinzinnati 
Ohio


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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:12:50 -0800
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <bis9170 at home.com>
Subject: RE: Fermentap


>On Tue, 04 Dec 2001 22:23:27 -0600, Brian Dube <bdube at gotgoat.com>
wrote:
?
>A question for the group:
>
>Do you think it would be difficult to build a Fermentap-style device
with a
>larger diameter to prevent clogs? The picture I have seen on
morebeer.com
>looks a little complicated, but probably not too complicated to build
and
>modify. Any thoughts on this?

>From what I understand, it's not just the diameter of the bottom
Fermentap spout assembly that presents a challenge. Assuming that
you're talking about using an inverted glass carboy ala Fermentap,
it's also the fact that the bottom cone is generally not steep enough
to get all of the yeast to slide down to the very bottom. I've read
that 60-degrees is the "magic number", in terms of how steep this
bottom cone needs to be......

Cheers,

Todd Bissell
Imperial Beach, CA



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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 00:39:59 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkinson at goquest.com>
Subject: RE: Using Cornelius keg as secondary

John Wagner wrote:

>I'm a relative newby and have just aquired a few cornelius kegs.  Does anyone 
>use these as secondary fermentors by putting a trap on the inlet line and 
>plugging the outlet line?    I know that there is some sediment in the bottom 
>of the secondary.  Can I pressurize this out through the outlet line or will 
>it clog the line up?

I routinely use cornelius kegs for secondaries.  I ferment in a 10
gallon Cornelius type keg and transfer to two 5 gallon kegs using a
three headed out to out transfer tube, driving the beer with CO2.  I
purge the secondaries with CO2 prior to the transfer.  The out tubes on
the secondary kegs are shortened about an inch to leave sediment behind
when later transferring to the serving keg.  I put the secondaries into
a converted chest freezer lagering fridge for settling.  When I transfer
to a serving keg I don't move the secondary so as to not stir up the
sediment in the bottom.  I have never had  nearly enough sediment to
come close to clogging the output line.  The fermenter out tube was
clogged with yeast on the batch before the last one I transferred from
the fermenter, however.  This was the fourth batch from the same yeast
and it had built up to a thick mat all the way up to the shortened out
tube in the fermenter.  I ended up transferring a lot of yeast to the
secondary so when I transfer that batch to serving kegs I may have a lot
more sediment than usual.  I doubt it will be enough to cause a problem,
however.  After transferring that batch I dumped a lot of the yeast
before putting in the next batch of wort.  I had no problem with the
transfer of that batch today.

John Wilkinson


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:31:58 -0500
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: ProstRate problems

As your resident biologist I must take issue with Jim's prostrate problem.
The problem you describe Jim is caused by the prostate.
    The prostrate is a little known gland wich causes older men to want to
lie around the house. Especially after a few pints.
LOL
Pete Fantasia
Mays Landing, NJ


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:12:27 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Local Club Competitions

We also hold a monthly style competition in our club, Hogtown Brewers of
Gainesville, FL. We have set up a calendar that covers all the styles, folding
related styles together to fit into a yearly schedule. Each brewer is limited
to a max of  two entries per contest. Points are awarded as follows: 5 points
for 1st place, 3 points for 2nd, 2 for 3rd, 1 for entering  (points awarded
only for your highest score, unless placing).  Points are also awarded for
wins at AHA/BJCP contests on the same basis, with addtl 3 points for Best of
Show (but no points for just entering).

At each meeting, we also hold a related  presentation/tasting for the style
that will be the judged two months later. For example,our next competition is
on Browns & Milds - the presentation/tasting was held at the October meeting.
We taste a variety of examples (mostly commercial, but also homebrewed), and
learn about the history, brewing procedures, recipe issues, etc for the style.
This then gives us two months to brew an example for the upcoming comp Of
course this doesn't work for the big beers like barleywine, but does work well
for most styles.

We used to do the judging at the meetings, but that didn't work out well. So
we started holding the judging at a different time. Currently, we are doing a
BJCP study group once a month, and we are holding the judging at that time. We
have always used a mix of BJCP judges and novice judges. This is a great way
for brewers to get some judging experience without the pressure of being part
of a sanctioned competition.

I'd highly recommend starting a monthly competition if your club isn't already
holding one. This is the third year since we started holding the competition
and presentations. Participation has been slowly growing. This year it has
been fantastic and the race is down to the wire. There are currently three
brewers tied for first place, and three other brewers within one or two points
of the leaders. So the results of the the last competition will determine the
final standings. You can imagine the level of exitement this generates.

Mark Tumarkin
Primary Fermenter
Hogtown Brewers, Gainesville, FL






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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:15:38 -0500 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: mash compacting with pump


Rob writes:

>Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:31:02 -0600
>From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
>Subject: Re: Pump recirculation using a grant
>
>>Q1:  Is there a problem with hooking the mash tun outflow hose directly to
>>the pump?  I thought I read there could be a problem with grain bed
>>compaction if the pump outflow was too fast.
>
>Yes, you can compact the grain bed by hooking the outflow directly up to a 
>pump.

This is not to dispute the experience of other brewers, but to provide
another data point.  I've been using a magnetic drive pump for probably 5-6
years connected directly to the mash tun outlet and I've never, ever had a
problem with the grain bed being compacted.  I'm not sure under what
conditions this occurs to other brewers.  I've made many different beers
using widely varying grain bills from 5 gallon up to about 12 gallon
batches.  Not once did I compact the grain bed.  

Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC




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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:38:04 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: AHA 2nd Round Judging

I thought I'd chime on the thread of lower scores at the 2nd Round AHA
Nationals. First of all, let me say that I agree with Jeff Gladish. From a
judging standpoint, there's no reason to expect different scores at the 2nd
Round. The competition should be stiffer because all the entries have already
been judged as winners at the 1st Round, but each beer is judged individually.

Of course, we all know that the same beer can get widely varying scores at
different competitions. There are many reasons for this - palate fatigue,
order or position in the flight, judge experience, etc., not to mention
possible deterioration over time or selection of an individual bottle that has
a problem (infection, oxidation, etc). Overall, though, I think that there is
remarkable consistency in judging. A beer that is given 38 points by one group
of judges will usually be scored within a few points of that by a different
group of judges at a different time or competition.  Not always, but on the
whole judging is consistent - this is certainly what we strive for.

I wanted to bring up a related point. One reason that scores can be lower at
the 2nd round is that some styles are truly best when young and fresh. Some
styles can suffer badly over the months between rounds. For example, I judged
the German Wheats at last year's 2nd Round (along with some very well known
and experienced judges) We were very disappointed at the quality of the
entries and the points reflected this. I'm sure that many of the beers we
judged may have gotten much higher scores at the 1st Round - they were better
beers back then. The esters and phenolics that characterize these styles drop
off significantly over time. You can only judge the beer in front of you now,
not what it may have been like. Of course, other styles (mostly the high
gravity beers) can improve with time.

As part of the AHA Board of Advisors, we are trying to deal with this issue
for future Nationals. Years ago, the rules required that the beer entered in
the 2nd Round had to be from the same batch as the beer entered in the first
round. That rule had been dropped in recent years but nothing was said
specifically about the issue. Starting this year; it is specified in the rules
that it's the brewer's choice to rebrew a new batch for the 2nd Round or to
enter the beer previously judged. This is the policy followed in the MCAB and
we feel it makes a lot of sense for a multi-round contest.

The brewer can make the decision based on style and other factors. The choice
to rebrew has it's own dangers. How consistent are your brewing practices and
results? There's no guarantee that you'll come up with an equal or better
batch than the one that won in earlier round. But at least you'll have the
option, clearly and specifically stated in the rules. I think this is a
definite improvement and I look forward to judging some hefes and other German
wheat beers with the characteristic flavor profile intact.

Mark Tumarkin
AHA Board of Advisors
Gainesville, FL






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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:21:53 -0400
From: "Adam Warren" <warrenal at mcmaster.ca>
Subject: RE: Ice to cool wort

I don't understand why the use of ice for cooling is not discussed more
often.
I've never seen it even mentioned in a book.

If one does it carefully, I don't see why problems should arise.  I
fill a zip-lock bag with the correct amount of water and freeze it.
(Obviously,
I leave some room for expansion.)  To be on the safe side, I usually put
this bag in another bag.  When it's time to add the ice to the wort, I rinse
the
outside of the bag with warm water to release the ice.

I find this method has several advantages
1) You can calculate the exact amount of ice you will need to cool your wort
    to the desired temperature.
2) It cools the wort very quickly.
3) You don't need to mess with cooling coils and the like.

Has anyone else used this technique?  Does anyone understand why this
technique is not used more often?

Cheers,
Adam
Hamilton, Ontario Canada

- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:04:36 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Ice for cooling wort

Henry,
Dont do it !!!
I also did it years ago when I started brewing. At some stage you
get to throw away an entire batch of beer. The critters will come,
believe me!
Rather dump all the ice in your bath, add some water and put your
fermentor with the hot liquid into the bath until it is cooled.
That way your fermentor is also clean.
Regards
Braam
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Henry wrote:

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:31:14 -0500
From: "Henry Van Gemert" <hvangeme at edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Ice for cooling wort
I'm extract brewing and in order to bring my 2 gal boil down to
pitching temp, I've been emptying my icemaker and dumping it
directly into the wort. I have read that this is a bad idea, because of
the introduction of critters, but I've been doing this for about 10
batches now with no problems. If I'm using chlorinated municipal
water in my icemaker, and emptying it about every other week, am
I fairly safe in continuing to do this? Any body with longer
experience than me doing this out there?
Henry
Portage, MI



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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:48:49 -0700
From: "Steve Wood" <stevewo at us.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Ice for cooling wort

When I did partial volume boil extract brewing, I always did the ice bath
method and then added cold water to my wort to build up to the 5 gals. and
hit the target pitching temp.  After converting to full volume boils
(extract and now mashing), I still do the ice bath method but add an extra
"feature" (something I picked up here on the digest).

While my wort is bathing in its ice bath, I have a 10 gal. Gott cooler that
is filled with 3/4 ice and 1/4 water about 2 feet above my wort.  I have
the input hose of my wort chiller attached to the cooler which allows me to
cycle ice cold water thru the chiller along with the ice bath (gravity
fed).  While the chiller is doing its duty, I keep a very gentle stir going
on the wort to "mix" the wort to enhance the cool down time.  The output
hose of the wort chiller goes into an extra 8 gal. pot.  The collected
water is used for watering until it becomes cool enough, at which time I
then recycle into my Gott cooler filled with ice.

This method allows me to bring a boiling wort down to lager pitching temps
(50F or less) in 30 minutes time.  Even less, if I'm making an ale!  Hope
this helps.

Steve Wood
Tucson, AZ.





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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:22:09 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Ice for cooling wort

I would be leery of putting ice directly into the wort to cool it.
There are other options.  Braam suggested dumping ice into a bathtub and
putting the fermenter of hot wort in the tub.  This would work as long
as the fermenter's not glass.  I used to immerse my brew kettle into a
tub of ice water.  The metal kettle is better at transferring heat than
a plastic fermenter.   Alternatively, you could fill 2 or 3 plastic
quart sized milk jugs 3/4 full of water and freeze them (keep the caps
loose or off).  When it's time to chill, cap the jugs, sanitize their
exteriors, and immerse them in the wort.  I highly recommend acquiring a
copper immersion chiller.  Chilling is a lot faster and easier.  They
can be purchased pre-built and ready to use for around $30.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[215, 264.5] Rennerian


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:14:18 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: Scaling Down

I'll second the vote for the Royal electronic scale sold by B^3.  I checked
it against a precision weight set (as well as mapped the platen) and it was
spot on within its resolution of 0.1 ounce, all the way up to 8+ pounds
(all of the weights I had).   However, I found it at Sam's Club for $19.95
some time ago.

I pose now the question of what to use at the opposite end of the spectrum
 - what's the best (read "cheapest") precision scale for building water,
etc.?  Am Sci and Surp has a little Jeweler's Balance for $12.95 that looks
good.

Any advice?


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:39:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ice for cooling wort

>> I'm extract brewing and in order to bring my 2 gal boil
>> down to pitching temp, I've been emptying my icemaker 
>> and dumping it directly into the wort. 

Yikes!

A far better idea is to simply make an addition of cold
water to the wort for cooling:  Cold and sterile water.

I take plastic jugs (just the gallon jugs you get bottled 
water in at the US stores), sanitise them, fill them with 
water, and put them in the fridge a day or two before 
brewing so they have lots of time to cool.

When wort-chilling time arrives, I cool the pot in a
water bath to, say, 120 F or so, which doesn't take
nearly as long as cooling the wort to 70 F.  Then just 
add it to the fermenter and add the prechilled, sterile 
water.  A bit of easy math can give you a close enough 
approximation to get you near your desired pitching 
temperature.

e.g. (2gal*120F + 3gal*38F)/(2gal + 3gal) = 71F

(This is approximate, due to specific heat diffs between
water and concentrated wort, but it's close enough.)

If I'm not feeling trusting of the local water supply, 
or I want to remove chlorine/chloramines, then two days
before brewing, I filter the water, boil it, and let it 
cool before filling the sanitised jugs for the fridge.  
MAKE SURE TO LET THE WATER COOL FIRST to near room
temperature if you do this, or you'll ruin all the 
milk and meat in your now-60's-F, struggling fridge!

Note that if you boil the water to sterilise it, you'll
have very little oxygen in it compared to water coming
straight out of the usual kitchen tap with the aerating/
filtering screen in it, so make sure to splash the water 
a lot as you pour it into the fermenter (or check out 
the thread on oxygenation via filtered air pump or 
O2 canister).

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:53:37 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Wort Aeration-Infection

>Then comes the important part - I "crack" the hose connection at the
>outlet to allow the pump to pull in a stream of air bubbles.
 ....
>Obviously, if you have problems with infections this method isn't for
>you - use a filter.

I was shocked a few years back when HBing with a friend in Arizona and he
cooled the wort in an open kettle outdoors.  I always assumed the drier
climate was part of the story, but to hear JeffR in soggy Michigan can get
away with this is another surprise.

What I do know is this.  Open wort at my old place under the trees in Fall
was a formula for 'white-floatie' infection.  This stuff is a pernicious
mold which has on several occasions appeared to make it's way through a
fermentation lock filled with water.  I remember conversations with Al
Korzonas about newbies in Chicagoland having endless infection problems in
Fall too.  So much that he advised beginners to avoid brewing in Autumn and
didn't brew much during that period.

There are a lot of possible explanations, but my renewed interest in
winemaking has convinced me that even in a naturally infected substrate like
grapes it's possible to get a reasonably clean primary fermentation by
pitching big.  You can get bacterial contamination and DMS etc during the
early hours of fermentation, but the serious headaches begin after the
primary fermentation when the yeast are nearly done and the very few
organisms that can handle the high alcohol, low pH and lack of oxygen
emerge.  There aren't many such organisms, especially if oxygen is
unavailable.  If you don't have any of these rare critters in you're
neighborhood and you pitch big and keep the O2 out after the primary then
you can probably ignore most of the rules regarding brewing sanitation (beer
not starters).

>A.J. DeLange posted [...] how quickly yeast at proper pitching rates
>took saturation of O2 down to zero - I think it was under ten
>minutes.  So I figure I'm getting continuous oxygenation of the yeast
>for an hour.

My recollection is 20 minutes but no matter.  I just read a paper that
showed that saturation levels of O2 (20ppm) disappear in UNPITCHED wort in
about 2 hours.  There are a lot of chemical processes that love to gobble up
the O2 and most result in negative color and flavor changes.  O2 addition
for yeast growth is an absolute *must* and there is no substitute, but don't
over-aerate your pitched wort just for grins.

The critical period for anaerobically grown healthy yeast (like pitch-packs
or fermented-out starters) is when they draw down their trehalose reserves
and make most of the sterols and UFAs - usually the first couple hours.
Once the first CO2 bubbles appear (approximately the time when the yeasts
internal reserves like trehalose are used up) then the wort sugars should
induce Crabtree effect and the yeast won't use O2 for fermentation or
sterols, even if it's present.  This changes in a matter of hours as the
sugar levels decrease and the trehalose levels slowly rebuild.

I think it's sensible to aerate the wort initially and perhaps for the first
few hours after pitching. After that I'd wait at least a couple hours after
the first CO2 bubbles appear and  use any such late aeration as a band-aid
correction for poor yeast performance.  I think Jeff might be better off
aerating his kettle twice at 30 minute intervals rather than continuously
for an hour.  That should be enough for any common yeast in decent shape.

 For aerobically grown starters pitched at kreusen you may not need any wort
aeration or at most a little initial wort aeration.

Hardwick's "Handbook of Brewing" notes that additional aeration may be
necessary at high altitudes, but that excessive aeration can lead to "unduly
rapid" fermentation and unsuitable beer quality.   I doubt this loss of
quality is a big issue - something like the "dangers" of overpitching.

Another factor that receives little attention is the amount of O2 needed for
yeast health.  I've seen studies that show some brewing yeasts can produce
good fermentations repeatedly given as little as 4ppm of O2 at repitching,
while others benefit up to 20ppm.  I wish the yeast vendors would publish
the O2 reqs for the individual yeasts rather than their attenuation
guesstimates.

<<
I have been able to get short lag times using this method and  pitching a
tube of Whitelabs yeast into an eight gallon batch - no  starter.
>>

Nothing wrong with short lags, but it isn't the holy grail either (and some
HBers think it is).  You don't want excessive lag periods that permit
infections to get a start, but seeing the first bubble an hour earlier is of
no real benefit.  I think a reasonable lag period for an anaerobic starter
says more about the yeast's internal reserves than about the wort or O2.

 -S






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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:10:32 -0600
From: ALABREW <homebrew at alabrew.com>
Subject: Buck

Dwight wrote wanting a recipe for Buck

Dwight,

My real job is with the Alabama Dept. of Corrections as a Correctional
Officer (18 years) Down here we call it Julip. There is no set recipe
because you have to steal the ingredients. As a general rule, they use
sugar, fruit cocktail, and bread yeast. Sometimes they will use Kool-Aid for
more flavor. I would say start with 2 lbs. of sugar, 1 can of fruit
cocktail, and 1 presweetened bag of Kool-Aid for one gallon. You might
consider using wine yeast instead of bread yeast.

Kim Thomson 
- -- 




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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:39:18 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: wheat yeast flavor

Art McGregor asks ...

>Every time I brew a wheat beer (extract based) the wheat flavor from the
>yeast only lasts a few batches, then fades away.
[...]
>Is this a common problem?

This is a weird one Art.  The clove-like weizen flavor is from 4
vinyl-guaiacol(4VG) and is created by the yeast from a phenolic precursor
from the grain called ferulic acid.   Many yeasts can perform this
conversion - probably most wild yeasts.

It's possible your strains have lost their ability to produce 4VG but that's
quite unlikely.    It's most likely a problem in the wort level of ferulic
acid or in the fermentation conditions.

If you were a masher rather than an extract brewer I'd suggest you perform a
rest at around 44C to increase the amount of ferulic acid extracted from the
grist.  As an extract brewer you are at the mercy of the vendors to include
enough ferulic acid to make a tasty weizen.   I'd experiment with the choice
of extracts, Art.   Also perform a healthy boil.  The boil actually converts
enough ferulic to 4VG to be almost tastable.  This leaves less for the yeast
to do.

Perhaps George DePiro will comment on it, but he under-pitches weizen yeast
to get optimal flavor and starts his fermentations cool (low 60sF), and
allows them to increase to around 70F after fermentation starts.

4VG is also not temperature stable so the clovey flavor fades over a period
of months.   Keeping the beer colder helps preserve it.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:10:58 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: Subject: __publication_only__

Yes it is a common perenial ground cover plant

Is the heather they talk about the same as the heather plants we grow in
the
flower bed? Or is it something grown in Britan/England?






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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:39:05 -0600
From: "Scott Basil" <sbasil at glasgow-ky.com>
Subject: ice for cooling

A lot of the responses to the ice question regard the source of the water.
Don't forget though that there are all maner of beasts just floating around in
your fridge/freezer and some will have certainly settled on the ice that is
exposed to them.  If it has worked for you great, but it does seem that you
are taking an unnecessary risk...

Scott Basil
Glasgow KY
If I had all the money back that I've spent on beer, I'd just spend it on
beer...



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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:45:44 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: re: Wort Aeration-Infection

Steve Alexander (who was kind enough to send me a cc of his post) wrote:

>I always assumed the drier
>climate was part of the story, but to hear JeffR in soggy Michigan can get
>away with this is another surprise.
<snip>
>If you don't have any of these rare critters in you're
>neighborhood and you pitch big and keep the O2 out after the primary then
>you can probably ignore most of the rules regarding brewing sanitation (beer
>not starters).

I don't even keep O2 out of my primary as I ferment my ales in 
covered "open" fermenters and keep peeking.  Well, I do this when I 
use a top cropping yeast.  It makes me nervous when no yeast head 
forms.  But I made a dandy bitter earlier this fall with WhiteLabs 
WLP002 English Ale Yeast, which surprised me by forming no yeast 
head.  I left it in the fermenter four days, which was a day past 
active fermentation.  I covered it with wide plastic wrap the whole 
time, but I did skim off the thin brown crud several times, which no 
doubt introduced more O2.  It's now nearly two months old and still 
tastes fine.

BTW, this was an eight gallon batch with a tube of this yeast and no 
starter, only the aeration method I described.  It had a thin layer 
of foam at about 20 hours.

I really like the flavors of this yeast, and in spite of its not 
forming a yeast head, have continued to use it, albeit in a carboy 
now that I know this characteristic.

>Nothing wrong with short lags, but it isn't the holy grail either (and some
>HBers think it is).

I agree.  Indeed, I am not speaking of spectacularly short lag times, 
more on the order of 15-20 hours for ales and perhaps 20-24 hours or 
a bit longer for lagers fermented at 9-10C (48-50F).  In other words, 
short enough for me to know that things are healthy.  Short, complete 
fermentations are another indication of this, especially with lagers 
or strong beers.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:17:44 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Laying down beer

Those interested in the recent thread about cellering beer may also be
interested in the following from BeerBreakMail, an email newsletter sent out
by Realbeer.Com (n/a yada yada)

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL

* * * * * * * * * * *
THAT TIME OF YEAR - LAYING DOWN BEER

As our beer cellar/fridge starts to fill with holiday beers, many of them
relatively high in alcohol content, we can't help be think about saving a few
for months or even years down the road. We've discussed the subject of laying
down beer before in Beer Break. That's archived at:

http://realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20010208.html

Now Michael Jackson checks in on the subject, most particularly those beers
suitable for cellaring:

http://www.beerhunter.com/askmichael.html

Jackson advises against refrigerating beers meant to mature, but people who
live in apartments, houses without basements or warm climates find they are
better off using a beer refrigerator to simulate a cellar. You'll find more
about at:

http://realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20010201.html





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