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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Bottle Testing, Tobacco  Stout, Kick that nasty smokin habit! (Brett Hetherington)
  Irish yeast (leavitdg)
  Re: Upflow Mashing (Martin_Brungard)
  second running ("steve lane")
  Frying up some turkeys (Mark Kempisty)
  Re: Freezing Yeast and drying yeast (Jeff Renner)
  RE: foaming problems (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Kolsch conditioning (Jeff Renner)
  Tobacco Stout ("Mark Worwetz")
  High OG (Alex MacGillivray)
  Champagne Yeast for Triple/Quad Malt (LJ Vitt)
  Kolsch conditioning (LJ Vitt)
  Kolsch conditioning (LJ Vitt)
  Samiclaus ("David Craft")
  Garlic Beer ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Brewery Tour in Whistler ("Craig Olson")


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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:27:31 -0700
From: Brett Hetherington <Bretth at idcomm.com>
Subject: Bottle Testing, Tobacco  Stout, Kick that nasty smokin habit!

See now I told you chemists would be yelling gloom an
doom...
Hopefully, if you didn't see bubbles coming out of your
bottles of vinegar/baking soda solution within a few
seconds, you would conclude that they were pressure proof
and open them to release said pressure (how much can be
expected from 1/4 tsp baking soda in 1 tsp vinegar?)

Tobacco Stout:
The second biggest industrial use of tobacco is in the
production of insecticides. How about a malathion bitter?

Seriously, have yourself a chaw, and swallow the juice.
You'll forget this idea real quick.

I used to suck smokes like they were air when I drank. Don't
know what the synnergy is there, but it's real. 
I'm thinking about a beer with Wellbutrin in it, you can
drink all night and you won't want a cigarette!

Folks, I know it's off topic but, I thought I'd never quit.
My wife told my doctor I wanted to and he gave me a zyban
(wellbutrin) prescription. $120 for 60 tabs,  damn! But then
again $2+ a day for a pack of smokes...
I timed it so I would quit during a vacation when my routine
was upset. Zyban for 2 months and 3 or 4 generic 2 mg
nicotine gums a day got me off a 30 year habit.
Funny thing, I jones for the gum more than I do for a
cigarette! Been clean since 4/1/01 though, and I feel good!

 -Brett


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:31:42 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Irish yeast

Colby;

  My experience with Irish yeast is that it leaves more fermentables
behind...sort of what you'd like for a sweet stout...and that it doesn't
handle high alcohol as well as Champagne yeast.  I would re-hydrate
2 pkgs of dry Champagne yeast, and use them,  or use a liquid yeast
(abbey/trappist) that is more cut out to ferment at higher alcohol
levels...

  Good luck,

 .Darrell


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:36:47 -0500
From: Martin_Brungard at urscorp.com
Subject: Re: Upflow Mashing

John Wagner asked about upflow mashing.  I have tried a mash with an upflow
setup.  It was not really successful.

After thinking about the physical system for a while, I recognized the
differences in upflow and downflow configurations weren't that different.
An upflow system would seem to have an advantage over downflow, since the
weight of the grain wouldn't be working against you...potentially
compacting the grain bed.

The problem is that the dry weight of the grain is very low (about 40
pounds per cubic foot (pcf) according to one of my texts).  Submerging the
grain in water creates a situation where you are working with the buoyant
weight of the grain, this is the wet weight of the grain minus the unit
weight of water.  I estimate that the wet weight of grain is in the upper
60 to lower 70 pcf range.  The unit weight of water is about 62.4 pounds
per cubic foot.  That leaves you with a buoyant weight of about 10 pcf.

Considering that a grainbed is on the order of a foot or two thick, the
pressure at the bottom of a grainbed due to self-weight is pretty low, 10
to 20 pounds per square foot (psf).  This is the force you would not have
when mashing in an upflow configuration.

The REAL forces that contribute to grainbed compaction are hydraulic.
Using a pump in a RIMS, we could easily apply 10 to 15 feet of suction head
across a grainbed.  That's about 600 to 900 psf!  As you can see, the
hydraulic forces drastically outweigh the grain's self weight.  These
forces would apply to both an upflow and downflow system.

This is why it is imperative that RIMS mashers limit the amount of head
they draw across the grainbed.  I use a sight-glass plumbed into my mash
tun so that I can monitor the suction head at the bottom of the grainbed.
I limit the head drawdown to no more than the bottom of the bed.   This
does mean that I have to throttle the pump outflow to keep the drawdown
limited.

 The size of the screen or intake filter would have to be the same in
either configuration, in order to provide equivalent flow rates.  John,  as
you can see, the upflow system won't really give you a significant
advantage over downflow mashing.  It just gives you a more complicated
system to attend to.

Martin Brungard,
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:37 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: second running

I am doing a 5 gallon Imperial Stout with a friend and we are discussing how 
we do this.  His thoughts are a 5 gallon batch of Imperial and a second 5 
gallon batch of stout.
My thoughts... 5 gallons of Imperial and 10 gallons of stout.  I'm figuring 
if I undershoot the intended stout SG of 1038, I'll make it up with extract 
in the boil.
The plan is 22 lb. of 2 row in 8.5 gallons of mash water.  Rims it for 1/5 
hours and transfer 5.5 gallon to the boiler.  No sparge

Next step, batch sparge to second boiler and go from there.

Is there a tool (software) out there to help me figure out what the gravity 
on my second batch will be... theorectically?  What have other done on 
second running batches off of a BIG first running?

Input would be greatly appreciated as we have never done this.



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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:40:38 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Frying up some turkeys

All,

FWIW, we are having our holiday lunch here at work and we have two
turkey fryers blazing away.  Of course it takes the two home brewers
amongst us to set up the burners.

Happy Holidays to all!

- --
Take care,
Mark

=========================================
Panasonic AVC American Laboratories, Inc.
=========================================




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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:43:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing Yeast and drying yeast

John Wagner Indwagj at aol.com writes from an undisclosed (and 
presumably secure) location (is Dick Cheney there too?):

>I would like to develop a yeast library of the most popular brands,
>specifically white labs and wyeast.  Does anyone have a good source for these
>as slant cultures?  I would prefer to buy most of them at the same time.

Because owner Dan McConnell is an old friend and long time 
contributor to HBD (though not much recently) and a nice guy besides, 
I recommend Yeast Culture Kit Co. http://www.yeastculturekit.com/. 
Dan lists dozens of strains on slant, but he actually has hundreds in 
his collection.  None of them are identified as Wyeast or White Labs 
strains, but there are obvious common ones.  He sells culturing 
supplies as well.

A year ago or so Dan fell behind on his orders due to unusually great 
demands of his day job (research scientist at the University of 
Michigan), but I understand he is up to date now.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:56:18 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: foaming problems

Troy Kase writes:

> I know 5' of 3/16" line is supposed to reduced pressure 
> enough to dispense appropriately, but this was not working at 
> all for me.  I tried 8' of 3/16" with very little 
> improvement.  Then the Tim Taylor in me kicked in and I 
> bought 20' of 3/16".  It works absolutely perfectly.

My first question would be, are you using true restrictor hose or just some
3/16" vinyl tubing such as Home Depot would sell? Brew stores would also
sell this as racking hose. Visually, the restrictor hose has much thicker
walls, giving an OD of 7/16" compared to the 5/16" I found on racking hose.
I made this mistake and was quite annoyed by the amount of foam that
appeared. 

If you do have restrictor hose, I have no explanation for your foaming
problem. Unless your regulator is buggered and you are actually dispensing
with 40 psi of pressure. ;-)

Cheers
Brian


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:04:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Kolsch conditioning

Galen Brelie writes from Mora, MN , which he says is [6340.9,2] 
Apparent Rennerian

I've figured out what the problem is with these 6000+ mile Rennerian 
coordinates people are reporting, they've neglected to use a negative 
number for west longitude.  Galen - your correct coordinates would be 
along the lines of 400,270 - the first number being miles from [0,0], 
the second the degrees (I didn't calculate them though, not knowing 
the actual coordinates of Mora).

And then he goes on to ask

>Does anyone really  know what time it is?

My feeling is

Does anybody care?
If so I can't imagine why
We've all got time enough to cry

But enough about relativity.

Galen also wants to know about cold conditioning Koelsch.

I think you've got the drill down right.  Carbonate, then lager.  As 
a matter of fact, I suspect that if you have the space, it would be 
even better to leave the bottles at the cold temperature it would be 
even better.  The fact that the odd bottle tastes great after six 
months is a testimony to your care in keeping oxygen out of your beer 
after pitching.

Cold conditioning, or lagering, in a carboy works fine too, but you 
probably will have more sluggish yeast for the carbonation.  However, 
I've carbonated lagers after more than two months lagering and the 
yeast was sufficiently alive as to be up to the task.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:59:55 -0700
From: "Mark Worwetz" <MWORWETZ at novell.com>
Subject: Tobacco Stout

A little input on the Tobacco Stout thread.  My friends and I had the
opportunity to try a Tobacco Stout at the GABF in 1998.  This beer was
highly recommended by many people we had passed, so we gave it a try. 
Afterwards we dubbed it "Ashtray Stout" and thoroughly washed out our
glasses.  The brewpub that was serving it had more of this swill in
their waste bucket than in their pitchers.  Apparently, victims of this
stuff were recommending it so they could watch other people gag on it. 
Furthermore, it took about 20 minutes of precious tasting time before we
could get the ashtray flavor out of our mouths.  My opinion on the whole
matter is therefore: "Just say NO!"


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:36:32 -0900
From: Alex MacGillivray <alex_macgillivray at admin.state.ak.us>
Subject: High OG

I just bottled an Alaskan version of an Abby Triple. I was reading the
most wise advise of others who correctly point out the importance of
pitching stepped up yeast in a high gravity starter. My OG on my triple
was calculated out to be 1.083 via Pro Mash. Thus My starter was the
same. Since I make 15 gallons at a time I made a gallon of starter.

As a  warning of high gravity beers, for those who have yet to venture
in that direction, be sure to let it ferment to completion. The SG will
slowly continue to drop over the course months in the fermenter. Mine
took six months to drop from 1.084 to 1.001(yes 1.001) using Wyeast's
Belgian Triple. It will have to age for 6 more months to a year in
bottles. Also, after so long in the fermenter, I think it might be wise
to use a fresh yeast starter before bottling. Five bucks is cheap
insurance to be certain the beer will bottle condition.

Party on,
Alex MacGillivray



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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:58:11 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Champagne Yeast for Triple/Quad Malt



 
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:48:35 -0500
From: "Colby Fry" <colbyfry at pa.net>
Subject: Champagne Yeast for Triple/Quad Malt
 
Seasons Greetings from unusually warm south central PA. I am thinking about
brewing a triple/quad malt beer.( OG~1.100) Somewhere along the lines of a
barleywine style, but I am interested in using champagne yeast. 

Colby, you can use any yeast you want.
But, I would recommend you use Belgian strong ale yeast.
It is more nuetral than trappist yeast and alcohol tolerant.

I have used champaign yeast in barley wine after failing to 
get a complete fermentation from eng ale yeast.  I think it
leaves the beer to dry.

 - Leo Vitt
Rochester MN



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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:12:59 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kolsch conditioning


Sorry for posting twice in a day instead of combining my post.

Galen asked about Kolsch conditioning....

>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:47:40 -0600
>From: "Galen Brelie" <gmbaaa at ncis.com>
>Subject: Kolsch conditioning
 
>I have brewed several batches of Kolsch and enjoy this beer very much. 
 .....

> Do others store
>the beer in the carboy for the cold conditioning?  Is this preferable to cold
>conditioning in the bottle?  Does it really make a difference?  Does anyone
>really  know what time it is?  (I digress)

>Cheers,
 
>Galen Brelie
>Mora, MN

My approach is to put the seconary into a cornie keg.
Put the keg into refrigeration and "lager" the beer for 2 months.
Then warm the beer up and bottle with corn surgar, producing
bottled conditioned Kolsch.  I like fermenting Kolsh at 58F.

Rochester MN




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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:13:54 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kolsch conditioning


Sorry for posting twice in a day instead of combining my post.

Galen asked about Kolsch conditioning....

>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:47:40 -0600
>From: "Galen Brelie" <gmbaaa at ncis.com>
>Subject: Kolsch conditioning
 
>I have brewed several batches of Kolsch and enjoy this beer very much. 
 .....

> Do others store
>the beer in the carboy for the cold conditioning?  Is this preferable to cold
>conditioning in the bottle?  Does it really make a difference?  Does anyone
>really  know what time it is?  (I digress)

>Cheers,
 
>Galen Brelie
>Mora, MN

My approach is to put the seconary into a cornie keg.
Put the keg into refrigeration and "lager" the beer for 2 months.
Then warm the beer up and bottle with corn surgar, producing
bottled conditioned Kolsch.  I like fermenting Kolsh at 58F.

Rochester MN




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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:53:38 -0600
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Samiclaus

Greetings,

Our homebrew club brewed a batch of Samiclaus last week for consumption at
our December meeting next year.  We would like to taste this beer sometime
before to see what we made.

Bass Ackwards North Carolina doesn't allow anything over 6.0. Does anyone
have access to this beer, Sam Adams Triple Bock would be nice to try too!,
and would purchase and send to us poor souls.  We will make it worth
someones time!

Regards,

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:28:47 -0500
From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at mediaone.net>
Subject: Garlic Beer

I tried a garlic beer once - gave me a tremendous craving for pizza!
However, I never had the desire to make a whole batch.

Reif Hammond





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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:00:58 -0800
From: "Craig Olson" <craigo at nas.com>
Subject: Brewery Tour in Whistler

My wife & I just spent a few days skiing at Whistler BC and I happened to
get a tour of the "Brewhouse" pub in the village.  (Wed & Sat at 3 PM
brewery tours if you care to know).  It's a 10 barrel micro brew place with
all the brewhouse stuff visible from the pub through big glass walls.
Peter, the brewer ( I forget his last name but great guy), had 6 brews on
tap including a stout & gave us free samples of them all prior to the tour.
I made the mistake of mentioning that I'd spent the previous evening at the
"Dubh Linn Gate" Irish pub & quaffed a few pints of Guinness.  In addition
to an excellent tour of the brew house I also learned a new word:
"nitrogenated."  Peter's stout tasted thinner to me, not quite as creamy as
the Guinness, although quite tasty.  According to Pete the  thickness in
domestic Guinness has as much to do with dissolved nitrogen than with the
brew itself.  In Canada, Guinness is a paltry 3.7% alcohol (again,
according to Peter) and his stout was a more respectable 5.8%.  News to me.
Dubh Linn's Guinness tasted great although I noticed that after 4 pints I
still didn't have any kind of buzz going so I took to fortifying it with
Irish whiskey...

If you happen to visit Whistler, Dubh Linn's Gate is a great Irish pub with
live Celtic music and the Brewhouse makes some fine hand-crafted brews.

Craig



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