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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Garlic Beer ("Eric and Susan Armstrong")
  Tobacco & Beer (The Wengers)
  cold conditioning koelsch (Jeff & Ellen)
  Samiclaus (Rod Prather)
  Hop gardening help needed ("Paul Kensler")
  Follow Up: Pressure Testing Bottles (Steven S)
  Re: second running ("Jeff Tonole")
  White Labs 400 Wit yeast for Belgian Dubble ("jim wilson")
  Some curious and perhaps interesting anecdotes about using hydrogen ("Dr. Pivo")
   ("Schrempp, Michael")
  SanKey Kegs ("Milone, Gilbert")


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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:53:55 -0600
From: "Eric and Susan Armstrong" <erica at isunet.net>
Subject: Garlic Beer

I have never had a garlic beer, but a friend of mine once made a garlic
wine.  I was the best grilling marinade I have ever tried.

Eric



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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:17:30 -0600
From: The Wengers <dkw at execpc.com>
Subject: Tobacco & Beer

Changing the thread somewhat, I would have to say the best beer I've
found ot accompany a good cigar is Riverwest Stein, from the Lakefront
Brewery in Milwaukee Wisconsin.

It's an amber lager, and after a puff and a sip the flavors blend
terrifically.

I'm terrible at describing the poetry of a well-crafted beer's taste, so
you'll have to track it down and try it for yourself. I don't know if
they sell outside the Milwaukee area, but the bottle I'm drinking right
now shows their URL at www.lakefront-brewery.com.

Dan Wenger
Hartland, Wisconsin



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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:51:34 -0500
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: cold conditioning koelsch

Leo Vitt wrote about lagering and then bottling a koelsch-style ale, "Put 
the keg into refrigeration and "lager" the beer for 2 months.  Then warm 
the beer up and bottle with corn sugar, producing bottled conditioned 
Kolsch."

I think it would be better not to warm up the beer before bottling.  This 
defeats some of the purposes of lagering by rousing the dormant yeast that 
you just spent two months putting to sleep.  This may bring back the chill 
haze and the rough yeast flavors that you took so much care to get rid of. 
 There will probably still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate even 
if you bottle when cold, but it may take a little longer.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, Fl. (989.5,175.5)



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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:45:31 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Samiclaus

Word was that Samiclaus was produced in 2000 for the 2001 season.   I haven't
been reading the HBD lately.   Has anyone tried the new batch?  Is it
available?   Does anyplace have it in Indiana?  Indianapolis?  

My fav Beer Monger didn't order it and I gotta have some for the annual
Christmas Party....

- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:42:50 -0500
From: "Paul Kensler" <pkensler at home.com>
Subject: Hop gardening help needed

I have some really obnoxious squirrels digging up my hop beds - they are
completely exposing the rhizomes.  I cover them back up, and they dig them
back up.  Also the occasional constitutional visit from the neighbor's cat,
but that is more insult than injury.  Has anyone experienced the same
problem and found a way to beat the little buggers or at least dissuade them
from tearing up the hop garden?

I've thought about a grid of electrified mesh topped with razor wire and
patrolled by Dobermans surrounding each hop hill, but there has to be an
easier way...


Thanks,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD




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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:56:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Follow Up: Pressure Testing Bottles


Well, thank you for all the suggestions to test my bottles. Unfortunatly
the mystery deepens. I took 3 bottles, 2 of which failed to carbonate well
from my Raspberry Wit and 1 bottle which I have no clue what it contained
but I think also had a problem. All 3 still had their original gaskets. I
took a couple of gallons of water and dumped it into my corny keg,
pressurized it to 25psi and let it sit. After a bit I filled a few bottles
with my counterpressure filler. Shook the bottles after capping to release
some C02 and sunk it under a sink full of water.

Nothing, nada, no bubbles. I know there was definatly pressure, when I
opened the bottles 2 gave a nice *POP*.

So, I'm left with thinking the following..

 - Rapid cooling of my bottles hardens the seals, causing pressure leaks.

 - Poor yeast conditions in individual bottles causing poor carbonation

 - Same bottle performance over several batches caused by poor
   sanitization or local infection.

With my Raspberry Wits the two brews in question has extremely light
carbonation, almost undetectable. I'm really certain the first is likely
in some cases, the 3rd in others. My switch to kegging really makes this
point mostly moot but i would love to figure it out.

Thanks for the help gang.



 Steven St.Laurent ::: steven at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian







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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 01:32:09 -0500
From: "Jeff Tonole" <jtonole at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: second running

steve lane inquires:

> I am doing a 5 gallon Imperial Stout with a friend
> and we are discussing how we do this.  His thoughts
> are a 5 gallon batch of Imperial and a second 5 
> gallon batch of stout.
> My thoughts... 5 gallons of Imperial and 10 gallons of
> stout.  I'm figuring  if I undershoot the intended stout
> SG of 1038, I'll make it up with extract in the boil.
> The plan is 22 lb. of 2 row in 8.5 gallons of mash water.
> Rims it for 1/5 hours and transfer 5.5 gallon to the boiler.
> No sparge
>
> Next step, batch sparge to second boiler and go from there.
>
> Is there a tool (software) out there to help me figure out what
> the gravity on my second batch will be... theorectically?  What
> have other done on second running batches off of a BIG first
> running?

I don't know about software, but I can point you to an article
that will help you calculate it the old-fashioned way:

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html

The article was written by Randy Mosher in 1994 for the late lamented
Brewing Techniques, and it provides formulas and tables to help you
figure out the potential gravity of your first/second/third/etc. runnings.

If you want to see how it works in practice, check out this page:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/jtonole/slothbrew/threetoe.htm

It provides a recipe and description for making 3 gallons of barleywine
and 5 gallons of pale ale from the same mash (similar proportions to
your 5 gals of Imperial/10 gals of stout).

Good luck on your parti-gyle brewing session, and let us know how it turns out.

jeff tonole
SlothBrew
Adrift in the universe but currently residing in Ithaca, NY
[375 mi, 88 deg] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:58:11 -0800
From: "jim wilson" <jgwilson at adelphia.net>
Subject: White Labs 400 Wit yeast for Belgian Dubble

Yesterday, it felt like summer, so I brewed a batch of Wit with the White
Labs Belgian Wit Ale yeast.  Has anyone tried this yeast for a Dubble?  I'm
just thinking ahead about what I might do with the yeast cake from the
primary.  Thanks and Happy Holidays.

Jim Wilson

                o          \o
   __o         /\          /
  `\ <>       `\ `>       `\  >
(*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.




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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:13:43 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Some curious and perhaps interesting anecdotes about using hydrogen 

There was first a suggestion, and then a good deal of discussion, about
using hydrogen peroxide as a means of oxygenating wort for better yeast
growth on this forum a good while back.

It ran the usual course of discussions here with some very adamant
opinions being thrown about, without the teeny tiniest bit of practical
experience to link them to.

Being a "fan" of H2O2 as a sanitising agent, and having plenty around, I
thought I might fiddle a bit with this at first seemingly preposterous
suggestion (it turns out that many very good and original ideas seem at
first preposterous, by the very nature of their originality).

I had played a fair ammount with reoxygenating during primary
fermentation, and think I know pretty much what to expect if done at
certain stages, so thought i would try and emmulate the ammount of
oxygeneation that occurs when  "dropping" a beer (racking a beer during
fermentation doing some heavy splashing).

It turns out that this is really a pretty miniscule ammount of peroxide.

I had three questions that I wanted answering, or at least getting
suggestions toward the answer.

1) does this in fact promote yeast growth or is it toxic?

2) how does it affect flavour?

3) is this a "healthy" or wise thing to do?

I had a beer that was divided in three portions, and added this little
squirt of peroxide to one just when it was reaching "white" krauzen.
(just when you're starting to get that clean white foam that covers the
surface).

The peroxided portion "stalled" after 24 hours compared to its non
treated twins, but after 48 seemed to have kicked back in to match them.

1) question one certainly seems to look like it is initially toxic to
the yeast.

Now as to flavour..... this is a tricky one.  It turns out that if you
know how to make good beer  ( and there are MANY, MANY different ways to
do that, in contrast to what is often suggested here), if you make major
changes in your brewing procedure, you are asking for trouble.

Now this hydrogen peroxide debate flew up when I was already trying to
look at something completely different.  It has become popular locally
with the "stove top lads" to brew highly concetrated worts (say 1090)
and then immediately dilute them with cold water, using the cold water
both as a means of achieving rapid chilling and a way to double stovetop
production volumes.

I've tasted some fine brews done this way, so thought I would play with
it.  The brew in question was done to over 1070 and then diluted with
cold water that comprised about one third of final volume.

This final beer had a bizarre "solventy" taste and aroma that I found
fairly objectionable but others seem not to mind much.

Now there is one contributor here who sees Clostridial infections luking
around every corner, and I thought "what if he's right?" since the
peroxide treated version had not the slightest hint of this flavour, and
had in fact a slight "wild strawberry ester" that was very pleasant  (
the only commercial representation of this flavour I know was in the old
Smichov brewery products (Staropramen) before the Bass takeover, and was
characteristic enough to me that I could always pick their products in a
blind tasting).

Then I started getting very exited and thought "what if my well water
has a bacterial contamination, and the peroxide was enough to excede the
MIC(key mouse) value for the bacteria, but not for the yeast?" (stuff
that "kills" things does it at different concentrations for different
critters and you can measure these kind of things).

It turns out that this was probably not the case as I then repeated my
H2O2 squirting on plane water, plus a nontreated control, and let them
spend several days in "the box" on two different culture mediums, and
they both turned out "no growth").

Another thing that speaks against this odd solvent flavour being
infection produced was that it did not intensify with age (which has
always been my experience with infection based flavours) and in fact
seemed to get a bit milder with aging.

And then I thought: "If a little dab of peroxide can so profoundly
affect flavour early in fermentation, what would happen late in the
game?"  So, I took a keg of "old solvent" that had lagered for 8 weeks,
and did the same peroxide squirt, and then let it sit for some days at
4C..... and I got....

"Solvent" mixed with "old tennis shoe".  In other words, as one might
have expected with any late oxidation, an accelerated "old barrel"
flavour.

So question 2 as to flavour affects, I'd say it definately affects
flavour, and I would guess it some pretty wildly unpredicatble and
various ways.

As to question 3.... is this a healthy or wise thing to do, I've got no
information what so ever, and as such would suggest "don't do it", since
we have already inherited a legacy of chemical exposures that we first
after several years say "oops" when we figure out that we've been slowly
poisoning ourselves and our planet..

Beer has been around a while without peroxide additions, and I think it
is just dandy.

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:52:35 -0800
From: "Schrempp, Michael" <michael.schrempp at intel.com>
Subject: 

Steve Lane asks about the gravity of the second batch...


I am doing a 5 gallon Imperial Stout with a friend and we are discussing how

we do this.  His thoughts are a 5 gallon batch of Imperial and a second 5 
gallon batch of stout......
 .... Is there a tool (software) out there to help me figure out what the
gravity 
on my second batch will be... theorectically? 


Based on the amount of grain you are starting with, you can calculate the
theoretical yield of the combined batches with any of the standard
techniques.  Once you draw off the Imperial runnings, you can measure the SG
and quickly calculate how much to draw off for your Imperial. 

So, with 22 lbs of 2 row and 85% efficiency, you could get an average SG
between both batches of 1.070. If the second batch target is 1.038, the
first batch target would be 1.102 (you don't say in your post). So, say your
recirculating mash SG is 1.105 then you pull less that 5 gallons (4.85
gallons) and add water to get to your 5.5 gallon boil. Or if your
recirculation SG is low, you pull more.

Mike Schrempp
Getting rained on in Gig Harbor, WA



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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:41:16 -0500
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: SanKey Kegs

Does anyone know a source for buying empty Sankey half barrels?? I would
like to make some to build a RIMS system, and I would also like to brew a 15
gallon batch for a graduation party. 
 -Gilbert Milone
Private replies
gilbert.milone at uconn.edu


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