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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Guinness (Canada) (D Perry)
  Brewpubs near Mesa AZ ("Dave Howell")
  RE: Request for recommendations of Brewpubs in the Mesa AZ (Phoenix) area (Jay Swartzfeger)
  Large commercial yeast pitching options (Alan Meeker)
  Club yeast banks (Chad Clancy)
  Keg Fridge Problems ("Dennis Collins")
  Clearing the Smoke ("Ray Daniels")
  Re: new Unibroue beer ("Drew Avis")
  USE OF A 10 GAL COOLER (CMEBREW)
  Tobacco / smoked / stout (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Club Yeast Banks (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: h2o2 aeration (Jeff Renner)
  some painless water chemistry (long) (Jeff Renner)
  yeast bank (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Club Yeast Banks (Rob Dewhirst)
  Club Yeast Banks vs. HB Stores (Paddock Wood Customer Service)
  StarSan and Counterflow chillers (Stephen Johnson)
  15.5 gallon batch ("Milone, Gilbert")
  Unibroue 10 (RiedelD)
  San Antonio (Spencer W Thomas)
  Unibroue 10 (Subject: Rauchbier / Samiclaus / Unibroue special beer) ("Michael Bolam")
  Re;  British Ale/Traquair Character ("Bill Frazier")
  re: Yeast temps (Rama Roberts)
  English Ale flavours, and Guinness ("Rob Compton")
  OFFICIAL CALL FOR NOMINATIONS ("Gary Glass")
  Re: Unibroue 10 (Svlnroozls)
  Bamberg and Smoked beer (GordonRick)


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:06:42 -0800
From: D Perry <daperry75 at shaw.ca>
Subject: re: Guinness (Canada)

I believe our bottled Guinness is brewed by Labatts.  You can also still get
the imported can's with the widget in it, I think these can's are from
Ireland.  Now I am not sure but the local pub that I drink Guinness at says
the kegs come from Ireland, but even if it did it wouldn't taste the same
because I believe (and I am no expert on this) but all imported beer must be
pausterized. This may attribute to the off-flavors or difference in taste.
Well that's my two cents.

Dave
Prince George, BC, Canada
[1937.5, 308] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:52:49 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at qwest.net>
Subject: Brewpubs near Mesa AZ

In HBD #3816, Walt Hodges asks for recommendations of brewpubs in Mesa Az.

Walt, I live in Mesa.  I can't think of a single brewpub in Mesa.  But,
there are a few (some even brew beer from grain ;) in the neighboring
cities.

In Tempe:  Four Peaks Brewing, near University and McClintock, 1340 E. 8th
St.

Others abound, how far do you want to drive?


Dave Howell
Mesa, Az



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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:54:51 -0700
From: Jay Swartzfeger <jswartzfeger at home.com>
Subject: RE: Request for recommendations of Brewpubs in the Mesa AZ (Phoenix) area

> Subject: Request for recommendations of Brewpubs in the Mesa AZ 
> (Phoenix) area
>
> Emergency trip to Mesa has just appeared on my calendar.  Any 
> decent (or
> Great) brewpubs in the Mesa area?  If not Mesa, how about the Phoenix
> area?

Best of the bunch has to be Papago brewing in Scottsdale, AZ. 30 
taps and 400 different bottles in the cooler. Here's a link to what 
they currently have (their taps are rotated on a weekly, sometimes 
daily basis):

http://www.papagobrewing.com/tap.html
http://www.papagobrewing.com/stock.html

They carry a great selection of local, regional, national and 
international beer. You may also want to check out Four Peaks 
Brewing, Rio Salado Brewing and Sonora Brewing if you have the 
time...



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:54 -0500
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Large commercial yeast pitching options

Stephen Ross correctly points out that the newer Wyeast "XL" smack packs
contain essentially pitchable (for 5 gallon batch volume) quantities of
yeast. This is also true, by the way, of the newer White Labs pitchable
tubes. I neglected to point this out in my post - shows you how old this
post was!

 -Alan Meeker




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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:36:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Chad Clancy <chadclancy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Club yeast banks

Mark Vernon writes:

> I have a question for those of you in Brew Clubs.
Does your club
> offer a club Yeast Bank? If they do how is it run?
Our club was 
> offering a Yeast Bank - we have several members into
yeast ranching 
> and they were gracious enough offer it to the club.
For a small 
> donation ($2) to the club, to cover culturing costs,
a member could 
> request a strain of yeast, we would whip up a small
10ml starter and 
> the member would then step that up to whatever level
they felt they 
> needed to pitch. 
> What are the groups opinions as to the legal/ethical

> aspects of this type of yeast bank? 
> The reason I ask is that our local homebrew shop
owner heard about
>  this (we did not try and hid it),  called one of
the big yeast suppliers
>  and had them send a letter threatening us with
legal action, if we did
>  not "Cease and Desist"  selling "their" yeast. They
also threatened to
> stop selling their yeast to  him (the homebrew shop)
because, 
> supposedly, we purchased our  source yeast from him
(some we did, 
> some we did not). So what is the opinion of the
group? Are these 
> types of yeast exchanges/banks legal?  Ethical? Can
I give a
>  buddy the yeast cake from the batch I just  brewed
or am I
>  'stealing' the yeast from the supplier? 

I hope I'm not falling for a troll post because this
sounds so out of whack, its almost hard to believe. 
All of the dealings I have had with the major yeast
suppliers have been good and they seem to have a good
understanding of what this hobby is about.  For this
reason, it is troubling to think that one of these
guys would go to such an extreme to prevent those who
wish to use cultured yeast from doing so.   I'm
convinced that the typical homebrewer enjoys learning
about the entire brewing process and making beer more
than drinking it and I think that most yeast suppliers
are mindful of this.

Given the nominal fee to cover culturing costs, it is
clear that this is not a moneymaking venture. 
Therefore, I doubt that what the club is doing is
illegal (I'm not a lawyer so take my opinion for what
it's worth).   Furthermore, a single homebrewer who is
trying to maintain a sizeable bank of yeast will have
trouble saving much money, let alone break even so it
makes sense to get other brewers involved.

The main thing that strikes me about the yeast
supplier is that they typically admit that their
yeasts were obtained from outside sources.  They
rarely name these sources, however for obvious
reasons.  At any rate, they did not synthesize the
yeast.  At best, they may have selectively cultivated
and cultured the yeast.

I'd suggest that you ask the yeast supplier (notice
how we don't call them yeast manufacturers) what law
or ethical standard you're violating.  Again, I hope
this doesn't turn into a yeast supplier bashing thing
because I suspect that the attitude that Mark
encountered is an isolated case.  I think that the
yeast suppliers have done a lot to improve the state
of homebrewing over the last decade or so.








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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:44:50 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Keg Fridge Problems

Happy Holidays All;

This question is for the refrigerator technician group within the
collective.  I bought my fridge used about 1 year ago and I would guess its
about 15-20 years old.  Its a Kelvinator type.  I use it for serving beer
only, not fermentation.  It has worked very well and keeps a fairly
consistent temperature of about 42-45 F as measured by a floating
thermometer in a cup of water inside the compartment.  The thermostat dial
is set at about "1" which is the very low end of the scale for cooling.

Anyway, about every 2 or 3 weeks, I will open up the fridge and the cup of
water with the thermometer in it is frozen solid.  It's not possible for me
to turn the thermostat down any further because it's already at the bottom
of the scale (yes I'm sure that 1 is at the "warm" end of the scale and not
at the "cool" end).  The freezer compartment seems to be working fine (I
keep the jugs for my fermentation chiller in there and they always seem to
be frozen solid).  After a day or so, the temperature returns to normal and
it will be fine for a few weeks and then this process repeats itself.

Is there anything I can do to prevent the refrigerator compartment from
freezing up periodically?  I'm fairly mechanically inclined so I wouldn't
mind working on it myself, I just don't know what I'm looking for.  I'm
hoping to avoid using a separate temperature controller because I still need
the use of the freezer compartment.  Any ideas?  Private e-mail is fine.
Thanks in advance.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
[386.04 Nautical miles, 182.2 degrees] Apparent Rennerian
"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:41:53 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
Subject: Clearing the Smoke

Let's see, a few facts need correcting from HBD #3817.

Herr Zellmann incorrectly states that Schlenkerla is made from Weyermann
smoked malt.  Schlenkerla smokes their own malt and it is this product which
constitutes about 97 percent of the grist in their smoked beers.  "Farb" or
"color" malt is used for the remainder of the grist and this specialty malt
comes from Weyermann.

Dave Harsh incorrectly states that Schlenkerla is now made with just "30-40%
smoked malt."  The proportion of rauch malt remains the same in the classic
Marzen-style beer.  Perhaps he has confused the original with the
Schlenkerla Weizen beer which was recently imported in to the US.  The
Weizen is made with rauch malt for the barley portion of the recipe, wheat
malt making up the balance.

Finally, Paul Kensler reports having made a nice rauchbier from the book
which Geoff Larson and I wrote on this subject and using a grist containing
40% Weyermann rauch malt.  (Thank you Paul.)  His example points out an
important point, namely that the Weyermann rauch malt is more strongly
flavored than that used for making Schlenkerla.  As a result, efforts to
follow the Schlenkerla recipe using Weyermann malt are likely to result in a
beer that is overwhelming in its smokiness.

Those interested in further information on the making and use of smoked
malts and smoked beers might enjoy picking up a copy of "Smoked Beers."
Those with a, ahem, "burning" desire to do so can find a copy on Amazon.com
or directly from the AOB.

Best regards,

Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications

Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order books and single
magazines.
Don't Miss: Real Ale Festival - Feb 27 - March 2, 2002 - Chicago, IL
www.realalefestival.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:15:07 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: new Unibroue beer

Dave Harsh asks about the 10th anniversary Unibroue beer.  Yep, it's true,
but only in French.  The English section of the web site is mute on this
subject, but the Francais home page has quite a bit of information.
Babblefish makes the customary dogs breakfast of the page, good for a laugh
but you get the gist:
http://fets3.freetranslation.com:5081/?sequence=core&language=french/english
&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unibroue.com%2Fproduits%2F10.cfm

Basically, it's a tripel style beer made with four spices, 6000 cases made,
2,500 for export outside of Quebec.

On a related topic, where's the best place to pick up Unibroue beers in
Hull?

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:21:49 EST
From: CMEBREW at aol.com
Subject: USE OF A 10 GAL COOLER

Just used my 10 gal igloo cooler for mashing a 6 gal batch and it couldn't be 
easier. 
12 gal of 168 degree strike water. Stirred in 9.5 lb of grist. Temp was then 
156. Rested for 60". Temp then 153. Added 22 qts of 180 degree sparge water 
to mash out, but temp was only 164 then (raise this water to 184 next time). 
I let it rest for 10" anyway and recirculated til clear. Began run off into 
FWH and ran off to 28 qts. Boiled for 60" with hop schedule: 15gr Ultra fwh, 
20gr Perle 60", 15gr Ultra 10" IBU's are 30. Used a first generation wyeast 
1056 slurry stepped up in fresh 500ml wort.
        grain bill:  7 lb american 2 row----2 lb flaked corn----8 oz dextrine 
(carapils)
The 10 gal cooler made it a chinch. If anyone is interested I brew coffee as 
well. Check it out  www.cmebrew.com


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:31:03 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Tobacco / smoked / stout

Oh, oh.  Now that we've beaten tobacco stout to death and I've requested 
information about rauchbier, what's next?  I don't think it's the dreaded 
clinite*t debate.  I don't think it's the b*tulism thread.  Hmm....what's 
botanically related to hops, smoked like tobacco (roll your own) and known 
to have been put in beer?  No, we won't go there.  Happy Holidays to all 
and to all a good beer.
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:26:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Club Yeast Banks

In HBD #3817 "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon at pioneer.com> writes:
>So what is the opinion of the group? Are these types of yeast
>exchanges/banks legal? Ethical? Can I give a buddy the yeast
>cake from the batch I just brewed or am I 'stealing' the yeast
>from the supplier?

  If I buy a bag of Idaho Russet Potatoes from the local
grocer and use half of them for planting, am I stealing
from the grocer, the distributor, or the farmer when I
harvest my crop?

Joel Plutchak <plutchak at [...]>
Champaign Illinois



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:26:36 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: h2o2 aeration

Joe Gibbens <jgibbens6 at attbi.com> suggests:

>In Dr. Pivo's recent hydrogen peroxide experiment, is it possible that
>the "stalled" fermentation  could be the yeast briefly returning to an
>aerobic cycle from the oxygen addition before resuming anerobic activity?

The same thing occurred to me, and yet another confounding 
possibility, that the bubbling of the evolved O2 might have scrubbed 
some supersaturated CO2 from the fermenting wort, and another delay 
was due to the CO2 level reaching supersaturation before bubbling 
again.

Of course, neither of these possibilities is incompatible with the 
possibility that H2O2 is also toxic to yeast.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:35:46 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: some painless water chemistry (long)

"Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at dblewis.com> writes from Warren, Ohio:

>I thought that hardness was defined by the sulfate (permanent) and
>carbonate (temporary) content of the water....

So did I when I first started brewing and trying to figure this all out.

I've been turning over in my mind a narrative explanation of these 
matters for Zymurgy.  I have wanted to write it up as "Water 
Chemistry without Pain" or some such title.  Chemical symbols and 
formulas can scare some folks off right at the start.  Here is a very 
rough first draft.  It is not for dissemination or publication, 
although you may pass it along, with the same conditions.  Naturally, 
I retain all rights.  I hope it is a useful explanation.


First, hard and soft water - what are they?  Historically, before 
anyone knew anything about chemistry, people discovered that some 
water made lovely, soft, creamy lather with soap.  Rain water is an 
example of this, which is why people had rain barrels to collect 
water for washing laundry and hair.  Other water, such as well water, 
made sticky, unslippery, unlathery "soap curd," left a bathtub ring 
of this material at the high water mark, and was generally poor for 
cleaning, unless a lot of soap were used.  Naturally, the term "soft 
water" came to be applied to the former, and "hard water" to the 
latter.

Sometime in the 19th century, science found the explanation for this 
phenomenon.  Hard water has dissolved calcium and/or magnesium ions 
from dissolved underground minerals.  Why do these make soap work 
poorly?  To understand this, we need to know what soap is.  It is a 
sodium salt of a fatty acid.  It is a fat molecule with a sodium ion 
at the end.  This allows the mixing of two things that don't like to 
mix, oil (or fats) and water.  The fatty end mixes with fatty dirt, 
and the ionic sodium end is attracted to water.  Voila, emulsified 
dirt.  However, the fatty part of soap would rather have a calcium or 
magnesium ion on its end, so in the presence of these ions in hard 
water, they replace the sodium ion.  Unfortunately, calcium and 
magnesium soap is not soluble in water, so it precipitates out as 
soap curd.  If you use enough soap, it uses up all of the calcium and 
magnesium ions, and then then you have some sodium soap left for 
cleaning.  At about the same time as this was explained, it was also 
discovered why certain kinds of waters made better beers of certain 
styles.

This is the proper definition of hard water, the presence of calcium 
and magnesium ions.  It has nothing to do with the presence of 
bicarbonate, carbonate, chloride, sulfate, etc.  This confused me no 
permanently hard water, and carbonate and sulfate waters.  I then 
learned that temporarily hard water has calcium (and magnesium, 
usually in smaller amounts) in the presence of bicarbonate ions, 
which, when boiled, lose carbon dioxide and become carbonate ions, 
which are insoluble in the presence of calcium or magnesium ions, and 
precipitate out as calcium (or magnesium) carbonate, which are 
virtually insoluble.  Permanently hard water has calcium and 
magnesium in solution with little or no bicarbonate.  The positive 
ions in this case are typically sulfate and chloride.  Boiling has no 
effect on these ions, so the calcium and magnesium remain in solution 
to produce soap curd or, happily, to react with phytase to produce 
phytic acid in our mash and bring the pH to a proper level.

How does adding slaked lime, Ca(OH)2, reduce bicarbonate?  Well, 
again I'd like to offer the full explanation (my kids say I can never 
give the short answer).  How does bicarbonate get into water in the 
first place?  Rain water falling through the atmosphere dissolves 
carbon dioxide, producing carbonic acid, naturally acid rain.  (Rain 
falling through atmosphere polluted with smokestack sulfates from 
coal burning produce sulfuric acid, unnaturally acid rain).  This 
slightly acid rain percolates through the ground, where it encounters 
limestone, or calcium carbonate, which is the remains of the shells 
of prehistoric sea life.  Calcium carbonate is virtually insoluble in 
water, which is a good thing for the sea life.  A clam would be in 
real trouble if its shell dissolved!  But it is soluble in acid.  So 
this acidic rainwater, now ground water, dissolves the limestone. 
The addition of carbonic acid to the carbonate produces bicarbonate, 
a terrible name, HCO3(-1).  The Germans call it hydrogen-carbonate, 
which is a much better name.  Bicarbonate in the presence of calcium 
is very soluble.  It is also fairly alkaline, which causes troubles 
when mashing pale grains.  However, this alkalinity is useful when 
mashing dark grains, which are acidic.  Brewers discovered this 
empirically centuries ago when they found that certain areas such as 
Munich, London and Dublin, with their carbonaceous (really, 
bicarbonaceous) water made good dark beer but lousy pale beers, while 
Burton-on-Trent, with its sulfate water, or, more to the point, 
non-carbonaceous, water, made good pale beer.  And Pilsn, whose water 
is soft, can make good pale beer, not because it is soft per se, but 
because it has no bicarbonate.

Slaked lime, which is called that because it is lime, or calcium 
oxide (CaO), mixed with water, just as we slake our thirst with 
water.  Lime is also called burnt lime, because it is produced by 
heating limestone (CaCO3), which drives off carbon dioxide (CO2) and 
leaves CaO.  When this burnt lime is added to water (H2O), it becomes 
slaked lime, (Ca(OH)2), calcium hydroxide.  This is the calcium 
equivalent of lye, and is strongly alkaline.  If you remember, 
calcium bicarbonate is the result of acid dissolving calcium 
carbonate, which is soluble only in an acid.  If we add enough slaked 
lime, a strong alkali, to the calcium bicarbonate solution to raise 
the pH beyond pH 10.8, it can no longer hold the calcium bicarbonate 
in solution. The bicarbonate gives up an H+ ion (which combines with 
an OH(-1) ion from the calcium hydroxide and becomes a water 
molecule) becomes carbonate, which combines with the calcium present, 
and precipitates out as calcium carbonate.  It seems counterintuitive 
that adding calcium would reduce it, but it does, by greatly 
increasing the ph, or alkalinity, of the water.

The addition of slaked lime, Ca(OH)2, reduces the bicarbonate, but 
also the calcium, in a 2:1 ratio.  This means that by itself, it 
presents problems for preparing brewing water, since we want calcium 
in the water, too.  As a matter of fact, adding lime is a common, 
inexpensive way of softening (reducing calcium and magnesium) 
municipal water supplies.  Such municipal water has a high residual 
pH, typically over pH 9, but it is not strongly buffered, so it 
typically presents no problem, as long as there is sufficient calcium 
remaining.

Home water softeners accomplish the same end result, reduction of 
calcium and magnesium ions, by ion exchange.  Sodium ions are 
exchanged in the water for the calcium and magnesium ions.  Soap now 
works fine, but the bicarbonate remains.  No problem for soap, but 
this water is doubly unsuitable for brewing, since it not only still 
has the pH raising bicarbonate, but none of the pH lowering calcium 
ions.


Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:43:34 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: yeast bank

I love it.  The perfect topic to stir up debate just when
the list is a little flabby on content (save creative ways
to torture squirrels).

My local HB club (to which I've just now become an active
member) has a yeast bank.  Will I use it?  Maybe every now
and again.  Let's face it...culturing up yeast from a single
cell is a lot of work.  For most homebrewers making a
starter is even stretching it.  I like the idea of HAVING
those strains available (especially the wacky ones) if need
be, but the truth of the matter is that I don't often have
the time or energy to do all that culturing.

As for the "cease and desist" language--that's just crap.
It's not like these yeast strains are patented by the yeast
labs.  They are a provider, and a convenient one at that, of
biological materials.  Recognize that the yeast strains are
not proprietary, and those that are considered "proprietary"
are generally called that because the brewery does what it
can to prevent distribution...a trade secret, in other
words.

I'm a big supporter of both major yeast labs which supply to
the HB community.  That being said I don't think anyone
should get up in arms if 0.2% of all brewers choose to
culture their own yeast and give some to others.  As long as
your designated yeast banker isn't making any financial gain
off the $2 transaction, I don't even see the ethical
dilemma.  If it's OK to use the same yeast repeatedly in
your own brewery, why isn't it OK to give the same yeast to
a friend?  Unless someone decides to create "Terminator"
yeast (like the Terminator seeds sold by your competition),
this is just traditional handing down of good materials.

- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:19:45 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Club Yeast Banks


>
>The reason I ask is that our local homebrew shop owner heard about this (we
>did not try and hid it), called one of the big yeast suppliers and

I try to support my local homebrew shop, but if mine were to do this, I'd 
stop shopping there and tell others in my brew club to do the same.  What 
on earth was that shop owner thinking?

One of the reasons we shop at brew stores is to have a consumer 
advocate.  My brew shop owner went to bat with me over over several bad 
products.

>had them
>send a letter threatening us with legal action, if we did not "Cease and
>Desist" selling "their" yeast. They also threatened to stop selling their
>yeast to him (the homebrew shop) because, supposedly, we purchased our
>source yeast from him (some we did, some we did not).

Please finger the guilty here.  Which yeast supplier did this?

Can you reproduce the letter?  The devil may be in the details.



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:17:23 -0600
From: Paddock Wood Customer Service <experts at paddockwood.com>
Subject: Club Yeast Banks vs. HB Stores

Mark Vernon asks for opinions on the ethics and legality of club yeast
banks.

Whether a club should advertise strains as "So and so's Irish Ale #6666" is
more of a legal than an ethical question. I won't touch the legality issue.

Ethically I see no problem with local club yeast banks- from an ownership of
strains perspective. As a retailer of course I'd be thrilled if every time a
beer was brewed a new yeast pack was purchased. But I don't make money on
yeast. Many of my customers re-use their yeasts. Wyeast has good information
on yeast washing, on starters and storage on their website. Fresh pure yeast
is a necessity for good beer, so I tolerate the hassle of stocking fresh
yeast cultures and trying to juggle strain availability with freshness.  I
could use the floor space for more profitable items. When a local group
decided to refresh their banked strains with fresh yeast from Paddock Wood I
was very happy, not because I could get rich on a single annual sale of a
$5.50 yeast pack, but because I knew that they would have pure yeast, make
better beer, and that's good for the hobby. What's good for the hobby, is
good for my shop's continued survival. I do not see major financial loss
coming to any HB store if a local club makes a bank available to its
members - but that doesn't mean it won't have an effect on the shop.

I would have a problem with larger scale re-culturing and sale of commercial
yeast varieties that would have a significant impact on retail outlets, but
I seriously doubt that any club that was more interested in quality than in
economy-beer would intentionally harm their local shop IF their shop is
serving their needs. To do so for whatever purpose, such as saving $3 on a
yeast purchase, would be more than shortsighted, and the club may soon find
itself without a local resource. I would like to think that the brew club
would act with enlightened self-interest, and so would the shop. It should
be a symbiotic relationship, not an antagonistic one. If only for customer
goodwill, it may have been more prudent for Mark's local shop to work with
the club than to rattle legal sabers. Likewise, if Mark's club relies on
their local shop, and makes special requests, or club orders, it would be
foolish for them to jeopardize that relationship over yeast.

My biased personal opinion is that if you are fortunate enough to have a
shop that carries fresh liquid yeast, use it or lose it. While a club yeast
bank will not seriously affect the store's bottom line because yeast is not
a high return item for the retailer, lack of club support may well be enough
to make the hassle of stocking the yeast not worthwhile and you could see
yet MORE wine kits spring up where you once had a fresh yeast fridge.  If
you can't get the yeast from the shop, or if special order turn-around time
is too slow, or if the selection of strains is limited, or you wish to
maintain unique strains, I think a club yeast bank is a great resource.

Just my $0.02

cheers,

Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant."

Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada
experts at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:51:39 -0600
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: StarSan and Counterflow chillers

Some of our local club discussion of late has revolved around the use of
counterflow chillers. Most recently, the question came up about using
StarSan solution as a final rinse at the end of a brew session and possible
problems with the long-term contact of said acid solution inside a copper
counterflow chiller during storage in between brew sessions. One of our
members was concerned with the possible reactivity of the copper with the 3
pH acid that is present in a StarSan solution when mixed according to the 5
Star brand directions.

I've been doing this with my Precision Brewing System chiller (copper coil
within larger copper coil) for several years now and have never noticed any
discoloration or residue when I re-clean and re-sanitize the chiller prior
to use during my next brew session. Although the chiller is more or less
drained prior to storage, I would imagine that there are some areas that
remain "coated" or in contact with StarSan for the entire storage duration
(some times as long as several months).

I use a pretty rigorous CIP (clean in place) set of procedures that
involves a 12-volt pump to recirculate hot water, then a caustic solution,
followed by warm water rinse, and wrap up with the StarSan rinse both
before and after using the chiller each time.

Any thoughts from our resident chemists and/or metalurgists out there in
the HBD collective?

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers (http://www.musiccitybrewers.com)
Winners of the 2001 Mid-South Club of the Year competition
Nashville, TN 
(A few grits south of Jeff Renner) 




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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:03:09 -0500
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone at uconn.edu>
Subject: 15.5 gallon batch

Has anyone every undertaken brewing a half keg batch? I'm contemplating
making a 15.5 gallon batch. I'm not really sure how to go about it though,
because I do not have a fermenter or kettle that big.
 -Gil Milone


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:48:09 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Unibroue 10

Dave,

Stephen Beaumont tasted the 10th anniversary beer from Unibroue recently.
He wasn't all that impressed, see his World of Beer site for the review:

http://worldofbeer.com/ktt/

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Can.


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:19:00 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: San Antonio

Late, but better than never...

I'd like to thank everyone who wrote to me concerning where to find
beer in San Antonio.  I managed to make it to Blue Star on Saturday. I
liked it. The folks were friendly, the atmosphere was laid back (at
least late on Saturday afternoon), and the beers were good.  The rest
of my drinking time was spent in the company of my co-conferees at one
or another of the bars in the Hilton. Although it was kinda hokey, the
"Irish" pub was convivial and fun, and the Guinness on draft was
excellent.  Per one recommendation, I wandered down to "Dirty Dick's"
on Saturday night, but it was too young a crowd for me. :-)

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:12:22 -0500
From: "Michael Bolam" <thrashlibrarian at hotmail.com>
Subject: Unibroue 10 (Subject: Rauchbier / Samiclaus / Unibroue special beer)

Dave (and others who might be interested),
I tried the Unibroue 10 this past weekend. I was pretty impressed. It 
reminded me of their Fin Du Monde, but possibly a bit stronger (over 10%, I 
believe) a bit fruitier, and from what I remember of Fin Du Monde, a bit 
"fizzier".

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm not great at writing about beers yet. Hopefully 
this helps you. I would buy it again.

Mike



From: Dave Harsh
 - -----------------------------
While we're on the topic of rare beers, I saw an ad in All About Beer
for a tenth anniversary beer from Unibroue.  Has anyone seen it, had it,
etc?  Comments on it?

Dave Harsh						Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH
- -----------------------------------------------



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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:04:45 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  British Ale/Traquair Character

Drew Avis asks about the interesting flavors in Traquair House Ale.  You can
produce Traquair-like flavors in your home brewery by boiling a gallon of
first run wort down to about a pint, over high heat, while you sparge the
rest of your mash.  Then add this thick, caramelized syrup back to the
boiling wort toward the end of your boil.  I've done this technique several
times trying to capture the caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB.  The flavor of
caramelized first-run wort is Traquair-like while the flavor of caramelized
table sugar is more like FESB.

If you add the caramelized syrup too soon in the boil the caramelized
flavors will be lost.  It may even be better to add the caramelized syrup to
the secondary although I've not tried that method.  A fellow from the UK-HBD
adds the caramelized syrup to the finished beer in the keg.  He says the
beer is sweet for several days but the unique flavor is quite pronounced and
lasts long enough for the keg to be drained.

There was an article in one of the brewing mags some time back about
Traquair.  It's brewed in very small batches (for a commercial beer) and the
boil is something like two hours over direct heat~sort of like what we do
when using a Cagin Cooker for the heat source.  This long boil creates the
caramelized flavor found in Traquair House Ale.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas





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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:04:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Yeast temps

> I'm going away
> for 4 days over the holidays and will probably turn my
> thermostat in the house down to around 60 or less to
> conserve energy. Should I worry about a stuck
> fermentation if the temperature drops down to 55-60 F?

British Ale yeast likes to be in the 65-75F range. You can probably
hold it in this range for a couple of days by placing it in a
water bath, like your bath tub. (std disclaimer about wet carboy
safety, etc). 
You'll probably need to rouse the yeast when you get back, 
but it should be fine. 

- --rama



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:45:13 -0000
From: "Rob Compton" <compton at btinternet.com>
Subject: English Ale flavours, and Guinness

Seasoned Gratings Ale-ians!

Many people have tried to exactly emulate their favourite ales without
success, me included.
The fact of the matter, as far as I can put my grubby finger on it, is.....

It be the water maaaster!

Here in sunny Bedfordshire, in the town of Biggleswade, we used to have the
Wells & Wynch brewery, which was taken over by Greene King in the 60's.

The Biggleswade brewery supported the multitude of Greene King houses (and
free trade) around this area for many years, until closing about 5 years
back.

The IPA brewed in biggleswade did not tast the same as the IPA brewed at
GK's main brewery in Bury St Edmunds, nor did it taste the same as the IPA
brewed at there other brewery at Furneaux Pelham (also closed now!).

The head brewer used to live locally, and frequenty my then local embibing
establishment, and he reassured me that the recipie was the same at all
three breweries, the yeast was the same, and that the water was chemically
identical at all three breweries.

However, it did not taste the same!

The water drawn from the spring in the heart of the Biggleswade brewery
comes from a sandy soil, with underlying chalk. It is quite hard in it's
natural state.

The water drawn from the well at the old Rayments brewery in Furneaux Pelham
comes from an area of predominantly clay soils, with underlying chalk and is
softer.

The water drawn from the well at Bury St Edmunds is from a light sandy loam
soil area, with a bloody great sugar beet processing plant under half a mile
away, with it's drainage beds seeping into the surrounding strata!

We always knew when there was a production (errr... infection) problem at
Biggleswade. We'd first be fed Bury IPA, then get the odd barrel from
Pelham. Sales of Light Ale would increase when Bury IPA came in, to make it
more palatable to local taste, such was the difference.

Since Greene King have taken over Morland, who had only just swallowed
Ruddles, we now have Bury St Edmunds style Ruddles County, and Morland Old
Speckled Hen, neither of which taste as they did, and are now only a fading
memory. Accountants know best, and chemists are the experts that tell us
that water has no taste, and imparts no flavour on the overall brew.

We have a phrase.... RHUBARB!

If breweries all used triple distilled water, which was distilled in
identical equipment, and tested to be pure H20, no parts per trillion of
anything other than pure H20, then we could possibly stand a chance at
getting our beers to taste just like those that we buy.

There were similar differences in Whitbread's Flower's IPA which was brewed
in a number of different location. As was (is) Bass,

I be ramblin' now. I best shuts up on that subject....

On to Guinness.

There are three different guinness recipies, as brewed at the Park Royal
brewery, London NW10, and as I have been reliably informed, that goes for
that brewed in Eire too.
I cannot comment on the differing flavours, but a well travelled friend
tells me that Irish brewed Guinness is sweeter than that concocted in Park
Royal, but is the same strength there as it is here.

There are weaker stouts on offer in Eire, brewed by quite a few other
breweries. Beamish to name but one.

Guinness Extra Stout - Bottled - 4.3% abv
Guinness Export Extra Stout -  Bottled - 7.5% abv (sold all over the world,
not much of it here!)
Draught Guinness - 5% abv

Merry Xmas to all / Humbug (delete as applicable)

Rob.




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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:09:13 -0700
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: OFFICIAL CALL FOR NOMINATIONS

>From Steve Casselman, Chairman, AHA Board of Advisors

OFFICIAL CALL FOR NOMINATIONS

Attention all members of the American HomeBrewers Association.

Once a year the AHA makes nominations for election to its Board of Advisors.
This year the board has voted to accept petitions from its members for Board
of Advisor candidates.

We're looking for members who want to make the AHA a better organization by
giving direct input to the AHA and the AOB and helping grow our
organization.
Candidates should be heavily involved in the American homebrewing movement,
be willing to work to grow AHA membership andbe willing to work online
daily and meet once a year at the National Homebrewers Conference.

Petitions should include the name, mailing address, city/state, and email
address of the nominee. Please check with the nominee to be sure that she/he
wishes to be placed in nomination and will serve if elected, and indicate so
in the nomination. The nominee must be a member of the American Homebrewers
Association. The Board of advisors will review the petitions and select a
manageable number for formal nomination, at which time a full biography and
letter of candidacy will be required.

On a personal note, I am the last of the "anointed" (i.e. people not elected
to the board), and since the day I joined the board it has been my goal to
be
voted out of office. I fought hard to get the membership to have a vote in
this board of advisors, but I never thought the membership would ever have
the
power we have now to control and expand the organization. Three members of
the
AHA board of advisors now also sit on the board of directors of the AOB, and
have direct fiduciary responsibility to the AOB. For anyone who knows a
little
about corporate law this is an important part of having a direct and real
input not only into the AHA, but all facets of the AOB organization.

Check out the bylaws for full details:
http://www.beertown.org/AHA/Legal/ahabylaws.htm

So if you think you can help make a difference--or know somebody who
can--step up and be counted!

Submit nominations before January 31st to gary at aob.org via email.

Steve Casselman, Chairman
AHA Board of Advisors

PS Remember to Vote. We will have online voting this year so there is no
excuse not to vote. It's your organization. We want your input!



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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:30:43 EST
From: Svlnroozls at aol.com
Subject: Re: Unibroue 10


In a message dated 12/18/01 8:15:02 PM, Dave Harsh writes:

<< While we're on the topic of rare beers, I saw an ad in All About Beer
for a tenth anniversary beer from Unibroue.  Has anyone seen it, had it,
etc?  Comments on it? >>

Several months ago, BJ's Brewhouse had their Unibroue night as one of the 
monthly beer appreciation nights and the guys from Unibroue were there to 
personally present their impressive array of brews.  After the tasting 
session, a few of us hung out for a while with the Uni-guys (They liked my 
witbier!  The former brewer of Chimay liked my wit!  Is that just the coolest 
or what?) and they brought out a bottle of 10, which, though they thought was 
a tad young, we all agreed was a mighty delectable brew.  It is very Belgian 
in character and strong, not surprising from Unibroue.  It is a deep gold in 
color with a rich, spicy aroma and warming maltiness.  I've had 10 once again 
since then and would like to have it again.  For a fan of strong Belgian-syle 
beers, it's worth looking for.

C.T. Davis
Los Angeles, CA


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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:29:56 EST
From: GordonRick at aol.com
Subject: Bamberg and Smoked beer

Gruss Gott, Herr Zellmann!

Bamberg was, and maybe still is, rightfully the beer capitol of the world. 
Not only do they have more breweries per capita than anywhere else in Bavaria 
(or technically Uber Franken), but they also host Weyermann malting house to 
go along with a truly beautiful city. My first real beer "in-country" in the 
spring of 1982 was a Rauchbier from the Schlenkerla. Gregor is right though; 
I didn't fall in love until the second half-liter (many more were to follow!) 
Thanks for the grain bill tip, Since smoked malt became available in my area, 
I had been wondering how much would be too much. I always use some chocolate 
malt to get the color very deep brown, but not opaque, as I recall.  I also 
tried smoking my own malt, but it tends to be much harsher (acrid?) than the 
commercial malt. 

As an aside, I had the opportunity to visit last year but by the time I made 
it to Bamberg, the Schlenkerla was closed for Christmas. It may have been the 
first time my children saw me cry. Aargh! 

One other classic beer from the area was Leonardbock (a doppelbock I believe) 
from the Weiss Rossl brewery in Rosstadt, just up the road - hard to get but 
worth the effort (Although my wife always said it would have been more 
properly named "Flatulator"). The Wiess Rossl "Weizen", the smooth-as-silk 
"Landbier" from Brauerei Beck in Trossdorf, the standby "Pils" from Brauerei 
Thein in Lembach, the "Marzen" from the Drei Kronen in Memmelsdorf, the list 
goes on.... What a great place!

BTW - Squirrels (AKA Tree Rats) were why they invented BB guns. You can't win 
this battle. They are just like furry cockroaches and will probably be here 
long after we are extinct.

Best wishes for the Holidays!
Prost!

Rick
[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian (If Mr. St Laurent's calculations are correct)


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