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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Club Yeast Banks ("Larry Cooney")
  RE: parts for running CO2 line into fridge? (John Wilkinson)
  vintaged ales ("Micah Millspaw")
  Re: Chimay ("Chad Gould")
  CO2 line into fridge. (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Sanitation Problems (Steven S)
  Re:  Sanitation Problems (Bottling) (Matthew Comstock)
  Mini-keg re-use ("TED MAJOR")
  Re: parts for running CO2 line into fridge? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: parts for running CO2 line into fridge? ("Jorgensen, Jens")
  Mini-keg re-use (Pat Babcock)
  Sanitation Problems ("Andrew Moore")
  Unibroue/Chimay ("Fred Waltman")
  Ancient brews ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Clearing the Smoke ("Fred Waltman")
  re: Sanitation Problems (Rama Roberts)
  Servomyces Questions ("Kraus,Drew")
  Re: Unibroue, Chimay (Svlnroozls)
  BJCP Exam Schedule ("Dave Sapsis")


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:31:43 -0500
From: "Larry Cooney" <lyvewire1 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Club Yeast Banks

Does Trading Yeast = Trading Files
Oh Man! Could this be another Napster Case?


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:28:56 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkinson at goquest.com>
Subject: RE: parts for running CO2 line into fridge?

Jens B. Jorgensen wrote:

>I've got a fridge with a tap on it for dispensing beer. I've been 
>keeping my CO2 tank in the fridge with the kegs but commentary on the 
>list and better judgement suggests that I keep the tank outside the 
>fridge. I would like to be able to use the same quick-disconnects that I 
>use on ball-valve kegs just to keep everything the same. I guess what I 
>need is some sort of shank that will go through the fridge wall (not to 
>worry, this fridge's side walls do not have anything in them other than 
>insulation), then some rings to hold the shank there and then the 
>quick-disconnects to screw onto those. Now where to find these parts? 
>Would such things exist? I was thinking that if I knew the 
>specifications of the threading for the disconnects that are on the kegs 
>themselves I could search after a shank fitting those specifications. 
>Has anyone done this before and can point me towards a supplier of the 
>right parts?

I did that several years ago and bought the QD fitting and adapter to
standard pipe thread from South Bay Homebrew Supply.  I can't find their
address or telephone number but perhaps they have a web site, if they
are still in business.  I bought a pipe nipple of the appropriate
diameter to fit the adapter from a local hardware store.  Sorry I can't
give an address and/or telephone number but I seem to have lost them
over the intervening years.

John Wilkinson in Palestine, Texas


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:14:27 -0600
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: vintaged ales

A few weeks ago there was a brief thread about vintaged
old / strong ales and how they aged. Each December, I get
together with some homebrewing freinds to sample a variety of
strong ales, barleywines and imperial stouts, both home made and
commercial. I try to find differing vintages of the same product
for taste comparisons. It is generally quite interesting.

In any event some of this years highlights were: 1992 Harvest Ale,
1998 Quadrupel (homebrew) 1983 Thomas Hardys. These were the
top three picks, most all were very good. The only really off tasting
beer was the 1997 Harvest Ale. 

I have been collecting vintage beers since 1985, and have 
quite a library of beers. I recommend vintage beers
as a adjunct to home brewing and beer drinking in general.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:33:30 -0500
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Chimay

> C.T. writes:
> "session, a few of us hung out for a while with the Uni-guys (They liked
my
> witbier!  The former brewer of Chimay liked my wit!  Is that just the
> coolest"
> Huh?  The brewer of Chimay (former or not) would be a Trappist monk.  No?
> Are you saying he quit the Order, packed up his hydrometer and moved to
the
> suburbs of Montreal?

>From what I understand, the monks are only supervisors these days at the
Chimay brewery, being that the brewery is at quite a large scale these days.
Most of the work is done by secular hired hands. But that's only what I've
heard, I could be wrong. :)




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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:47:33 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: CO2 line into fridge.

Howdy,
I ran the CO2 line into the side of the door and through the inside panel 
where my manifold is attached.  I'm just careful about opening the door and 
I put a rubber grommet and silicone around the CO2 line where it enters the 
door.
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:45:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Sanitation Problems


> I bottle condition beers with 3/4 cup of priming sugar in two cups
> boiled water put in priming tank and siphon beer on top of it.

I use primetabs exclusively for months. I've had MUCH better results with
carbonation after my switch. I'm now kegging and carbonation is even
better.

> Then bottle. I've had 2 of the last 4 batches not carbonate. Never had
> this problem before. Only difference is that I changed sanitizers.

Same here. I use a one step sanitizer which soaks in my bottles for 3-5
minutes, then drain and run thru a cycle in the dish washer (no detergent)
and a heat dry cycle.

> 1. Has anyone had problems with carbonation following santizing by one
>    step. Does it matter that the bottles were not completely dry on the
>    inside.

If I didnt do my heat dry cycle I would have suspected this. Quite frankly
I've not figured out a solution.

> 2. Could the caps be bad?

Possibly, see my post and the resultant thread from a few days/week back.
I tested the bottles in question with carbonated sanitized water and
discovered no leaks. You might try the baking soda trick but I didnt. The
trip to the emergency room for stitches would not be a good start to the
weekend.

My ONLY reasonable thought is the levels of viable yeast in a properly
sedimented carboy varies quite a bit. If I was bottle priming still I
would probably note each bottle with a number on fill order. Then as each
bottle is opened chart out which do and do not carbonate. See if there is
a pattern. Then take the non-carbonating bottles and check for leaking
caps. If that checks out.... well then..

I suspect viable yeasts. In my short brewing career i've always had a
bottle or two fail to carbonate. I've eliminated the priming bucket,
switched sugars to primetabs, replaced gaskets, checked for leaks, changed
sanitization techniques. Nothing too conclusive or consistant. So i'm
left suspecting the primary culprit, yeast. Maybe try adding a grain or
two of dried yeast to the bottles? Now if Primetabs came with the perfect
amount of dried yeast already in the tablet... hrm...




 Steven St.Laurent ::: steven at 403forbidden.net ::: 403forbidden.net
			[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem." -- President Ronald Reagan, 1985







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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:46:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  Sanitation Problems (Bottling)

Tom,

I'll be bottling this weekend so I hope I don't
jinx myself here.

What sanitizers are you using?  Oh, you said One
Step.  I use boring bleach.  Effective and cheap.
 But you do have to rinse.  Maybe some sanitizer
left in the bottles is killing some of the yeast
necessary for priming your beer?  I like to store
my 'empty' bottles with bleach solution in them,
covered with tin foil.  When needed I rinse them
with a bottle washer hooked to the kitchen sink.

I weigh my priming sugar.  I use 160g to 175g for
a 5 to 5.5 gal batch.  This makes it pretty
carbonated and you'd want to figure stuff out for
your own system.  This is about a cup and a third
of sugar.  3/4 cup would make my beer flat too. 
I weigh the sugar on a scale I purchased at the
local grocery store.  Since sugar can be of
different densities (D = m/V; density =
mass/volume) measuring by volume can screw you up
especially when you change brands of priming
sugar.  It may also be different from bag to bag
of the same brand.  I think measuring by weight
will give more accurate results.

You said: "I bottle condition beers with 3/4 cup
of priming sugar in two cups boiled water"  Do
you boil the sugar solution or just add it to
preboiled water?  The latter could cause bug
problems, I'd guess.  I'd boil the sugar water at
least five minutes or so.

Do you brew with a secondary fermentation?  Are
you low on yeast when you bottle?  I don't use a
secondary and bottle after two weeks in the
primary.  There's plenty of suspended yeast still
around, but the beer isn't *that* cloudy.  It all
settles in the bottle anyway.  I've noticed that
it takes one to two weeks longer for my beer to
carbonate fully when I've used secondary compared
to using a priarmy only.

Are you serving *very* cold?  I've noticed that
real cold homebrew tastes different and feels
much less carbonated when served ice cold.  Serve
a little warmer and see how it is.

Are you boiling your caps and messing with the
seal?  I bring mine just to a boil in a pot of
water and then remove from the heat and let them
sit in the hot water until I need them.  This is
what you do with canning lids (like canning
jelly).

If nothing else tastes wrong I would say its not
sanitation problems, except of course if your
sanitation technique is killing or reducing your
populaton of yeast neccessary for priming.  It
probably a combination low sugar and low yeast
count.

I'd use bleach for sterilization.  Whatever you
use I'd rinse prior to bottling.   I'd increase
the amount of priming sugar you use to at least
150 g for a five gallon batch and measure by
weight not volume.  

Good luck and hope this helps.

Matt in Cincinnati





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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:33:58 -0500
From: "TED MAJOR" <tidmarsh at charter.net>
Subject: Mini-keg re-use

Greetings, fellow zymurgists!

I recently picked up a couple of mini-kegs of Loewenbrau
Oktoberfest (imported from Munich!) at the local discount
warehouse. The mini-kegs had a built-in tap and a black
rubber bung with a red spline that rotates to vent the keg.

I got thinking (which usually gets me into trouble, but I do
it anyway) that these kegs might be candidates for re-use as
packages for real ale, allowing for serving at cellar temps
without gas pressure.

Has anyone re-used this type of mini-keg, and more
particularly has anyone re-used the black and red bung
successfully?

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Ala.


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:17:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: parts for running CO2 line into fridge?

"Jorgensen, Jens" <jens.jorgensen at tallan.com> writes:

>I've got a fridge with a tap on it for dispensing beer. I've been
>keeping my CO2 tank in the fridge with the kegs but commentary on the
>list and better judgement suggests that I keep the tank outside the
>fridge.

Why?  If you've got room in the fridge for the tank, I see no problem 
with leaving it there.  People claim that the cold CO2 will be more 
dense and you'll use more than if the tank is at room temp, but that 
isn't true.  After all, the CO2 in the headspace of the keg is cold 
regardless, and that's what counts.  It doesn't matter if it comes 
from a relatively warm tank and get chilled (and contracts) or from a 
tank the same temperature.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:26:58 -0600
From: "Jorgensen, Jens" <jens.jorgensen at tallan.com>
Subject: Re: parts for running CO2 line into fridge?

Actually my worry was about getting condensation and moisture in general 
inside of my guages and regulator assembly. I've been getting funny 
readings already I worried this might be the case. Other than that I 
don't have any particular aversion to keeping the tank except it does 
create a little bit more room and since I have a kind of narrow fridge I 
can use all the room I can get! (I have to keep my store-bought beer in 
there as well.)

Jeff Renner wrote:

> "Jorgensen, Jens" <jens.jorgensen at tallan.com> writes:
>
>> I've got a fridge with a tap on it for dispensing beer. I've been
>> keeping my CO2 tank in the fridge with the kegs but commentary on the
>> list and better judgement suggests that I keep the tank outside the
>> fridge.
>
>
> Why?  If you've got room in the fridge for the tank, I see no problem 
> with leaving it there.  People claim that the cold CO2 will be more 
> dense and you'll use more than if the tank is at room temp, but that 
> isn't true.  After all, the CO2 in the headspace of the keg is cold 
> regardless, and that's what counts.  It doesn't matter if it comes 
> from a relatively warm tank and get chilled (and contracts) or from a 
> tank the same temperature.
>
> Jeff



- -- 
Jens B. Jorgensen
jens.jorgensen at tallan.com




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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:49:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Mini-keg re-use

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Tidmarsh inquires after the reuse of commerically-filled 5L
minikegs...

I reuse them all the time. The bung in most commercially-
produced minis are a pain in the buttocks to remove, usually
requiring careful use of a knife, but the hole is the same size
as the Fass-Frisch minikegs, and the seals sold for 5 liter
minis fit (they're the same keg; it's just that most commercial
bungs use a plastic reinforcement which latches into the
opening). I bought a couple of those Fass-Frisch "Beer King" tap
systems so that I don't have to destroy the kegs in reuse, and I
counter-pressure fill them from my five gallon kegs. William's
sells a kit that has an available air pump. I'd imagine you
could use this kit and simply don't attach tha pump in order to
use these as mini real ale casks. (Of course, if you have
followed their dispensing instructions - popping a hole in the
keg - all this is moot :^)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday





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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:44:19 -0500
From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Sanitation Problems

Tom asks:

1. Has anyone had problems with carbonation following santizing by one step.
Does it matter that the bottles were not completely dry on the inside.

2. Could the caps be bad?

Andrew replies:

If my experience is any guide, then the answer to both parts of question #1 
is "no." I use One Step as a sanitizer at the recommended solution (one 
tablespoon per gallon of water) and have never had a problem. My bottling 
technique is to put a small amount of One Step in each bottle, shake and 
then dump. I then place the bottle on the bottle tree. I try to get the 
bottles sanitized first, so that they have a chance to drip most of the 
sanitizer out before bottling, but they are never completely dry. I use the 
bottles in the same order that they were sanitized, so that the first ones 
sanitized are the first ones filled. Regardless, it seems to me that a few 
drops of One Step in 12 o.z. of beer are not going to kill all of the yeast.

As for the caps, I'm not sure what you mean by "bad," but I sanitize my caps 
with One Step and place them on a clean paper towel to allow some drying, 
which means they are not completely dry, either.

I think the source of your carbonation problems is elsewhere, not the 
sanitizer.

Andrew Moore
Richmond, Virginia



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:21:27 -0800
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at mediaone.net>
Subject: Unibroue/Chimay



Dave Riedel askes about the Unibroue brewer being from Chimay:

The brewing at Chimay is more "supervised" by monks. The day-to-day brewing
is mostly secular. The man in question,
Paul Arnott, was (IIRC) at Chimay for 10 years. He is from Scotland, BTW.
His wife is Belgian and she wanted to move somewhere French speaking which
is how he ended up in Quebec.

Paul spoke at a recent beer dinner at the Sheraton Four Points in LA and one
of the interesting things from this is that Chimay uses American bittering
hops (currently Nugget, he said) and has done so since the early 50's.

Fred Waltman
Los Angeles, CA
(was once at 0,0 rennarian, but have no idea where I am now)



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:26:13 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Ancient brews

I found this article in the Economist online about attempts to
recreate old beverages, including Sumerian beer:

http://www.economist.com/diversions/displaystory.cfm?story_id=883706

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:40:33 -0800
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Clearing the Smoke

David Harsh comments about Schlenkerla being less smokey than it used to
be...

I have no information on this, but I think the smoke intensity increases as
the beer ages. This is a totally unscientific observation based on tastings
of US bought Schlenkerla before and after trips to Bamberg. Maybe you are
getting some fresher stuff. (BTW, my last order from
www.bierregion-franken.de (not connected, etc. etc.) arrived in 9 DAYS!)

And I'm sure many of you know this, but I do want to point out that the vast
majority of beers brewed in Bamberg and the Oberfranken are not smoked
beers. I bring this up only because so many people have said things like "I
don't like smoked beers" when I mention going to Bamberg.

Fred Waltman
Los Angeles, CA
(some pictures of Bamberg can be found at www.StickeWarriors.com)



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:32:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Sanitation Problems

>I bottle condition beers with 3/4 cup of priming sugar in two cups boiled 
>water put in priming tank and siphon beer on top of it. Then bottle. I've had 
>2 of the last 4 batches not carbonate. Never had this problem before. Only 
>difference is that I changed sanitizers. Questions:
>1. Has anyone had problems with carbonation following santizing by one step.
>Does it matter that the bottles were not completely dry on the inside.

Which sanitizer did you use? Anything intended for the brewing industry in 
quantities specified wouldn't have an affect like that. 
Drying the bottles isn't necessary.

>2. Could the caps be bad?

It's unlikely. If anything, maybe you're not crimping them on all the way, but 
it really doesn't take much force. Is every bottle flat, or are there a few 
with some carbonation? 

Other possibilities: 
 - letting the bottles get too cold so the yeast go dormant. 
 - not waiting long enough before opening. Under optimal conditions, the yeast 
will still need at least a couple of weeks to do their thing.
 - there's not enough yeast in the bottle. If there's any visible sediment on 
the bottom of the bottle, than that's not the case, but if you're racking to a 
secondary and letting it condition there for a long time, that might a 
possibility.

For your next batch, try bottling just a single bottle 2/3 full with the right 
amount of priming sugar. If its 60F or warmer, and have a noticable hiss when 
you open it a few days later, you should be good to bottle the rest. If not, 
maybe try pitching some fresh yeast along with the priming sugar at bottling 
time. 

Just serve your flat beer as "English style"!

- --rama



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:35:57 -0800
From: "Kraus,Drew" <drew.kraus at gartner.com>
Subject: Servomyces Questions

Okay, so always wanting to try something new in my brewing, I managed to get
my hands on a packet of Servomyces (check out:
http://www.whitelabs.com/brewery_servomyces.htm - nayyy).  I'm wondering how
to use the stuff in a 10 gallon batch.  The packet contains 10 grams of
dried servomyces, enough to energize the yeast for about 10 barrels of beer
(roughly 300 gallons).  Doing the math, I figure I need to use about 1/3
gram per 10 gallon batch.  Anyone out there used dried Servomyces in home
brewing?  How much did you use?  How do you store the remainder?  How long
can I expect it to remain viable when stored correctly?

Lacking a sufficiently accurate scale, my thought is to add one small pinch
of the servomyces in the last 10 minutes of the boil and simply store the
remainder in a ziplock bag in the freezer until the next use.  Any tips or
experiences to share would be greatly appreciated. 


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:45:27 EST
From: Svlnroozls at aol.com
Subject: Re: Unibroue, Chimay


In a message dated 12/20/01 9:15:36 PM, the confused Mr. Riedel writes:

<< Huh?  The brewer of Chimay (former or not) would be a Trappist monk.  No?
Are you saying he quit the Order, packed up his hydrometer and moved to the
suburbs of Montreal? >>

Ah, I was wondering if this might raise some eyebrows.  Sure, Chimay is a 
Trappist brewery, but that certainly doesn't mean they can't hire 
non-trappist brewers to help them out.  Orval does this as well and possibly 
others I'm not aware of.  Paul Arnott was never a monk but he was working for 
Chimay and when the Unibroue job came along, he took it because it would 
allow him to be more creative.  You may have noticed that there is not a huge 
variety of beers from Chimay.  Given that choice, I'd certainly rather work 
for Unibroue.

C.T. Davis
L.A., CA


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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:32:29 -0800
From: "Dave Sapsis" <dsapsis at earthlink.net>
Subject: BJCP Exam Schedule

Time for the periodic listing of the current BJCP exam Schedule.
Lots of exams scattered about --  we'll opt not to make any geographic
references this time for fear of more bufoonery, but check for one near you.
As always, the most current exam schedule can be found at
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/exams.html

Year 2002

1/12  Sacramento, CA
David Sapsis  Phone: (916) 455-3375 dsapsis at earthlink.net

1/12  Idaho Falls, ID
Bob Beckwith  Phone: (208) 346-6870 bfirth at srv.net

1/20  Tallahassee, FL
Errin Pichard  Evening Phone: (850) 942-0574 ke1113 at aol.com

2/10  Champaign, IL
Alan Mead  Day Phone: (217) 344-2698
Evening Phone: (217) 337-0307 amead8695 at home.com

2/16  Asheville, NC
Brian Cole  Day Phone: (828) 258-3939 x223
Evening Phone: (828) 669-4356
bribarcole at aol.com

3/3  Greenfield, MA
Jason Hunter  Day Phone: (413) 519-1738
Evening Phone: (413) 665-5187
jhunter at postandbeam.com

3/10  West Chester, PA
David Houseman  Day Phone: (610) 648-4071
Evening Phone: (610) 458-0743
housemanfam at earthlink.net

3/17  Lenexa, KS
Jackie Rager  Day Phone: (913) 451-9255 x112
Evening Phone: (913) 894-9131
jrager at swbell.net

4/13  Gainesville, FL
Mark Tumarkin  Day Phone: (352) 338-4544
Evening Phone: (352) 338-4544
mark_t at ix.netcom.com

5/19  Orlando, FL
Ron Bach  Day Phone: 407 262-7422
Evening Phone: 407 696-2738
bachian at juno.com


Others in the horizon but not finalized include possible exams in the Boston
and  SF Bay Areas, likely in the late Spring/early Summer timeframe.

Merry Solstice and Good Studying,
- --David Sapsis/Dan Hall
BJCP Exam Directors





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---