---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Keg conversion ("The Holders")
  Re: Light vs. Dark Extract Fermentables (matt)
  Best of Brooklyn V Competition ("Kevin Winn")
  re: converting keg (Ed Jones)
  New Year's Answers (Marc Sedam)
  Converting kegs (Mark Kempisty)
  Schwartz Bier... ("Ralph Davis")
  cereal mashing (Marc Sedam)
  Real cereal adjuncts!!! (Chris Carson)
  Re: Barley cereal mash questions (Rob Dewhirst)
  Unintentional lagering ("Kristen Chester")
  RE: thermocouples (Ronald La Borde)
  Egg Nog (RiedelD)
  re: thermocouples (John Schnupp)
  The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates (Jeff Renner)
  cold guinness (Scott Murman)
  Measuring Boil Off Rate (Kevin Elsken)


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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:13:11 -0800
From: "The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Keg conversion

Troy asks about keg conversion.

I would recommend starting at http://www.brew-beer.com/kegs.htm . There is
also info in the Brewery's Library section at
http://brewery.org/brewery/Library.html#MashE .

Those links should get you started.

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com




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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 00:19:31 -0800
From: matt at suckerfish.net
Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark Extract Fermentables

>
> I have noticed, in the course of a few batches that,
> according to extremely unscientific data, a batch made
> with light extract will finish at a lower specific
> gravity than one made with dark extract. Both batches
> started around the same OG (+/- 1.060), but the dark
> finished around 1.020 while the light finished around        
> 1.010. I know that many of the specialty grains contain
> few fermentables, while contributing to the OG. Is is                 
> correct to think that dark extract has fewer fermentables
> than light?
>

You're right. Dark malt extracts contain more non-fermentables than
light malt extracts and this results in a higher FG when brewing with
dark extracts than when brewing with light extracts. Unfortunately,      
the exact makeup of a given malt extract is difficult to ascertain. I
participated in a thread on the Northern Brewer forums a few weeks ago
that covers this topic in a little more depth. Schiffer from Northern
Brewer contacted Breiss and Alexanders about the makeup of their
extracts and posted his findings. You can check it out here:

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=
1&t=001014

(*** note wrapped url! ***)

Schiffer's post is near the end of the thread.

Hope this helps!

  -- Matt



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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:23:35 -0500
From: "Kevin Winn" <krewbrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Best of Brooklyn V Competition

The Malted Barley Appreciation Society will be hosting its fifth annual
homebrew competition, Best of Brooklyn V, on February 23, 2002 at the
Brooklyn Brewery.  This AHA sanctioned event will continue the tradition
of providing quality judging and rewarding brewers with a prize for first,
second, and third place in each category.

There will again be a First Time Contestant's Best of Show.  Entries will be
due by February 15, and several drop off points will be provided.
Competition
information will be available at our website, http://hbd.org/mbas/, within
one
week.  Contact Kevin Winn at krewbrew at mindspring.com for more information.



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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:23:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at ironacres.com>
Subject: re: converting keg

Here are some links that might help:
http://www.brew-beer.com/kegs.htm
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/manning.html

You will need a good, sturdy outdoor cooker. The Camp Chef and King
Cookers are both very good burners and are sturdy. Basically you need
a means to cut the top out of the keg. The cleanest and easiest way
is to get someone with a plasma cutter to cut a hold in the upper dome.
I have heard of others using reciprocating saws and angles grinders, but
it is noisy and time-consuming. You will then need a means of draining
the kettle. If you have access to someone who can do some TIG welding,
then have them weld in a 1/2" stainless steel coupling. If you don't
have a welder, then go to http://www.zymico.com and order his Weld-B-Gone
kit with a ball valve. While you're there, I'd recommend you also buy
one of his Bazooka T screens to put inside your kettle. If you use whole
leaf hops (or plugs) they will provide a nice filter bed against the
screen and prevent hops and trub from getting into your fermenter.
Since the kettle holds so much heat, I'd also recommend you start thinking
about a chiller. The two most popular types are immersion and counterflow.
You can do a google search for more information there.

Good luck!

- --
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:12:02 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: New Year's Answers

What the heck.  There's 6" of snow in North Carolina and I'm
the only one who made it in to work.  Sounds like some built
in time to answer HBD questions...

1)  Dropping 6-8 gravity points per day is pretty solid
fermentation. It can go faster and can certainly go slower
towards the end of the fermentation.  You're all good.  The
thin white strata in the yeast sediment is the pure healthy
yeast.  In a perfect world, this is the yeast you'd
re-harvest for future batches.  And the size of starter
people quote generally represents the amount of starter wort
fermented.  Occasionally you will see people say that they
pitched a quart of "yeast slurry/sludge"...that's mostly
yeast and is easily possible if you repitch wort on the
yeast sediment from a previous batch of beer.

2, 3, 4)  DMS is most commonly caused by not cooling the
wort quickly.  It can be boiled away and you likely did just
that.  Running out of propane didn't affect your batch much
at all.  The addition of the hops, losing heat, then
reheating probably had the sum total effect of you
"first-wort hopping" your beer.  Some brewers intentionally
add the hops to the wort while it's heating and feel that it
gives a more rounded and pleasant bitterness.  I mash hop to
get the same effect, but like FWHing too.  You may dig it.

5) The scum is normal and more likely due some proteins
being "cooked" in the boil.  Likely has nothing to do with
the brown sugar at all, and won't cause any off-flavors in
the brew.  Some people scoop it off.  I don't.  YMMV (your
mileage may vary).

6)  Don't worry if your boil stopped via insertion of the
immersion chiller.  In an effort to keep things sanitized,
many people add the immersion chiller to the wort 15 minutes
before the end of the boil to kill any potential nasties on
the surface of the chiller.  I'm sure yours is fine and
nothing will have gone off.  RDWHAH (relax, don't worry,
have a homebrew).

Cheers!  Happy New Year!  Hope This Helps!
- --

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:34:49 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Converting kegs

Tray,

I read a lot about converting kegs but ended up buying one from SABCO.
There is a tremendous amount of info on the web.  brewery.org's library
has a section on equipment including keg conversion.

One method I read which seems the easiest is to make a jig out of a 1x3
(or so) with a hole cut out at one end that will fit over the keg's
tap.  At the other end attach a hand grinder with band hose clamps that
has a metal cutoff wheel installed.  Now you can swing the grinder in a
perfect arc.  If you cut carefully, you can even save the cutout part,
weld some tabs on it and you have a perfectly fitted pot cover.

Don't forget to depressurize the keg and wear eye and hearing
protection.  Also avoid the homebrew's until your done.

hope this helps.

- --
Take care,
Mark






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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:43:38 -0500
From: "Ralph Davis" <rdavis77 at erols.com>
Subject: Schwartz Bier...

I'm getting ready to brew a nice black lager with all Czech ingredients.  It
will be with DME based with specialty grains.  Any suggestions on technique?
I tried making one last summer but it didn't get black, and I think must
have gotten infected as it didn't taste right.  BTW, I'm using Pivovar
Budvar Budweiser's yeast...found from St. Pats in TX.

Ralph W. Davis
Leesburg, Virginia
[395.2, 121.8] Apparent Rennerian

"Beer is living proof that God loves us
and wants us to be happy."   -Benjamin Franklin




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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:03:14 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: cereal mashing

The only point I'd like to add to Jeff's comments regarding
the cereal mash is that consistent stirring of this mash
(and, actually, all mashes) is very helpful.  Corn, in
particular, gets quite thick in a cereal mash.  Stirring
helps to prevent scorching BUT ALSO helps to promote
gelatinization of the corn starches, thereby thinning the
mash.  The viscosity (thickness) of a corn-based cereal mash
will increase dramatically as the starch granules swell.
Stirring helps rupture the granules and will decrease the
viscosity even in the absence of enzymatic barley malt.  I
stir my CAP cereal mashes with a whisk.

'Course you should use the barley in there and make it easy
on yourself.

Jeff's remaining postings would have made me extraordinarily
thirsty (and jealous) had I not been sipping six different
grappas last night, each made from a different grape.  I'm
not a big hard liquor fan (Talisker for scotch, Booker Noe
for bourbon, and that's about it) but a well-made grappa
really does the trick.  Half a shot glass works nicely!

Cheers!
- --

Marc Sedam
from the currently snowy and partially paralyzed city of
Chapel Hill, NC
[148 deg, 511 miles] Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:42:02 -0600
From: Chris Carson <chris at webesota.com>
Subject: Real cereal adjuncts!!!

Every so often, I buy a box of Post Grape-Nuts cereal for my breakfast meal 
(or for late-night snacking).

Last night, I was reading the side of the cereal box and I read the 
ingredient list:

	malted barley flour
	wheat flour
	salt
	yeast

Well, needless to say I started to laugh...

Does ANYONE think that you could add this to a brew as an adjunct??

My first thought would be that the you'd have to treat it like oatmeal, 
because they do get pretty soggy.  Would the salt render it unsuitable for 
brewing?

Sort of a different spin on the phrase "Breakfast Blend"?




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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:55:12 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Barley cereal mash questions

At 12:18 AM 1/3/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Actually, the reason for a cereal mash with unmalted rice and corn
>(maize) is that the gelatinization temperatures of their starches is
>above the temperature of ordinary mashes.  Barley starch gelatinizes
>below mash temperatures.  So a cereal mash is not actually necessary,
>although it won't hurt, and will probably make the conversion a
>little more time-efficient.

More to the point -- in the absence of flaked barley, can I use straight 
unmalted barley without a cereal mash?



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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:51:00 -0500
From: "Kristen Chester" <kristen at cambridge.com>
Subject: Unintentional lagering

Hello All - 
As I just got a really nice all grain set up from my ever-lovin' 
boyfriend (thanks, Sean!) for Christmas, and as I apparently
did not have two brain cells left to rub together after New
Year's Eve festivities, I sort of chose the wrong day to brew
when I made my porter on New Year's Day.  The problem is
that our furnace is taking a little vacation so room temperature
in our little house is hovering around 40-45 degrees. (brrrrrr)

I (accidentally under)pitched my yeast (Wyeast London Ale yeast 
III #1318) when the wort was around 75 degrees, The black 
lager that I just racked to secondary seems quite happy, but
needless to say, my porter isn't exactly perking along in
fermentation like it should.

The nice men from the heating repair company swear that we
will have heat by the weekend.  At that point, is there anything
I can do to save my poor little porter, or is all lost?

Thank you once again for your assistance.

Cheers!
Kristen



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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:46:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: thermocouples

From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>

>I was hoping to automate this some
>sort of controller, thermocouple, and solenoid
valves.
>There seem to be many types of TCs (K,J,T). Does
>anyone know what the best kind to sue is? Also, could
>I use a regular temp controller like the ones in
Beer,
>Beer, and more Beer, or do I need a PID controller?
>Will PID controllers open/close a Solenoid?

A PID controller can be quite expensive, and somewhat
overkill for your application.

Probably the best sensor to use would be a thermistor.
Thermistors work well at temp ranges up to boiling.
Thermocouples really are used in industry for
measuring a greater temperature range - up into the
thousands of degree F ranges.  Thermocouples will
work, only the circuitry will be much more complex
because of the small voltages and currents involved. 
Noise is a problem requiring carefull design.

With thermistors, you can easily build circuitry with
just a few components that will do what you need.
Check out some 555 I.C. handbooks, and other
literature for thermostat ideas. Also, thermistors
work very well with small computer chip controllers.
You could start by investigating the 'Basic Stamp' by
Parallax. Anyone wishing to learn about controllers,
or for that matter, for a splendid introduction to
electronics would do well indeed to check out the
Parallax web site. (no $$$$ connection, just know good
when I see it).

To operate a valve, you take the electrical output
signal from your controller, whatever it is (computer,
PID, dry contacts, etc.) and feed this signal (after
conditioning it to interface with the valve) by using 
(SCR, relay, transistor)or directly from the
controller, depending on what the output of the
controller is and what voltage and current is needed
by the valve.

For the valve, you could consider the water valves
used in dishwashers, or washing machines.  These may
work, however I have no experience with other than
water. With wort, the valve may clog up, it will just
be something to try as these parts can be obtained
without too much cost.

Ron
Ronald J. La Borde  -- Metairie, La
pivoron at yahoo.com
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:41:29 -0500 
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Egg Nog

Just wanted to thank Jeff for posting his Dad's egg nog recipe.
(Actually posted a year ago in digest #3500).

I made a batch for my family over the holidays; it was delicious!
I used Maker's Mark (that's about the smallest batch bourbon
I can find/afford up here) and amber rum with the full strength 
recipe.  The fresh flavour that is achieved from the eggs and 
light cream is wonderful and the alcohols blend in nicely.  It was
decidedly 'more-ish' as my Mom likes to say.  I heartily
recommend everyone with even the slightest interest in egg
nog try it.

cheers
and Happy New Year,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Can.


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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:45:51 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: thermocouples

From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
>There seem to be many types of TCs (K,J,T). Does
>anyone know what the best kind to sue is? Also, could

I use K-type.  A TC is two dissimilar metals.  Whenever
two dissimilar metals are in contact a small voltage
will be present across the junction.  I have seen a
chart that lists the galvanic action of various metals
but do not remember where.  No matter.  The voltage at
the junction changes with the temperature of the junctions.
This voltage from the TC is usually in the mV range and
is not a direct readout of temperature (ie. 10mV is does
not equal 10 degrees).  A meter is used to condition
the signal.  

I would say the choice is up to you as to what TC you
use.  The various types are for different temperature
ranges, usually high temperature is the limit (if you
exceed the annealing or melting temperature of a one 
of the metals the TC wouldn't be worth much, would it).
On of the TC types contains iron, I think it is the 
T-type.  A while back, probably Oct-Nov 2001 time frame,
there was a discussion about the TC metal types.
If you searched the archives using my e-mail you 
should find the posting I made on the topic.

>I use a regular temp controller like the ones in Beer,
>Beer, and more Beer, or do I need a PID controller?

There are those who manually control the valves based
on their temp readings.  If your controller or method
is working for you, you should be fine.  Remember the
old axiom:  If it ain't broke, fix it till it is :-)

>Will PID controllers open/close a Solenoid?

Probably not.  The current draw is probably more that
the PID is rated for but you would need to check the
specs.  Some small relays do not draw much current.
Some controllers come in a nice case with power
outlets and such.  These types usually have some sort
of a "buffer" so that the actual PID unit can drive 
higher loads.  Typically, a SSR (solid state relay)
is used.  A SSR will allow rapid switching without
relay chatter.  Most SSRs have control inputs that
are typically 3-24VDC.  The outputs are rated at
various voltages and currents, select one based on
your requirements.  Typically a 20-30A 120 or 240V
SSR is used in RIMS.

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Horse with no Name



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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:10:45 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: The Definitive History of Rennerian Coordinates

John Gubbins n0vse at idcomm.com asks a common question (a FAQ, I guess):

>What are these Rennarian Coordinates anyway?

Rennerian Coordinates is (are?) a bit of silly fun that goes back 
about six years.  It all grew out of my semi-annual request that 
posters tell us their name and location.  It fosters community and 
might help answer questions.

After one such request some years ago, Dan McConnell, a former HBDer 
and owner of Yeast Culture Kit Co., poked some gentle fun at my 
requests and signed his post something like, "five miles south-east 
of Jeff Renner, the center of the homebrewing universe."*  Spencer 
Thomas (host of the HBD archives) then posted that he was one mile 
south-east of Dan, or six miles southeast of the center.**  It took 
off from there.  Soon more and more people were relating their 
location to the center of the homebrewing universe.  Hey - as long as 
they included their actual location, it accomplished what I was after.

Then Jason Henning, self appointed "Senior Rennerian Coordinate 
Developer," who now lives only 12 miles from here*** but at the time 
lived in the Pacific NW,regularized it by defining "Rennerian 
Coordinates," the first number the distance in miles from [0,0] 
Rennerian, and the second the bearing in degrees.  There was some 
discussion that the first number should be the bearing, but the 
readership seems to have agreed with Jason's original definition.

This past year, Steve Jones and Brian Levetzow independently 
developed Rennerian Coordinates calculators.  Steve beat Brian by 
hours, but his has some bugs for some locations, so Brian's 
calculator is now at the HBD FAQs link to 
http://members.home.net/levetzowbt/homebrew/rennerian.html.

BTW, when using the calculator, be sure to use a negative number for 
west longitude or you'll get weird numbers).

A year and a half ago Jason defined [0.0] Rennerian as me, not my 
brewery, and as such, a mobile coordinate.  In HBD in 8/00, he wrote, 
"Only when
we plant you will [0,0] Rennerian be static."  I replied that I could wait.

But recently, HBD janitor Pat Babcock****** decided that [0,0] should 
be static, and defined my brewery (N 42* 17" 47.0", W 83* 49' 34.2") 
as [0,0] Apparent Rennerian.

It's all been fun.  The main thing is to include your name and 
location when posting.  Rennerian Coordinates are optional.

Jeff


* Dan's actual coordinates are [3.6, 115.9] Rennerian
** Spencer's actual coordinates are [5.1, 116] Rennerian
*** Steve is at [422.5, 169] Rennerian
**** Brian claims to be precisely at [426.641261,118.44861064] Rennerian
***** Jason is at [12,30] Rennerian
****** Pat is at [18, 92.1] Rennerian
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:17:52 -0500
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: cold guinness


recently returned from a semi-annual trip to ireland.  don't know if
it's been discussed here, as i haven't had time to keep up, but
guinness has apparantly changed some things.  in most of the up-scale
pubs (read: yuppie zoos) i was in, the guinness was served very cold.
when i asked around i was told that they had changed the recipe
slightly, and are now serving it colder, in order to win back some
market share lost to the cold lagers (piss-lager drinking is very big
there believe it or not).  in some of the outlying areas it was served
at a more proper temperature, but if they've changed the recipe...
needless to say, this really, really sucks.  anyone else seen/heard
about this?

 -SM-
Redwood City, CA
(nowhere near Jeff;)


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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:11:35 -0500
From: Kevin Elsken <k.elsken at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Measuring Boil Off Rate

In regards to GMC's questions about boil off rate...

Another simple thing to do is measure your gravity before the boil
starts and then check it at various points during the boil.  It is a
trivial matter to calculate the amount of liquid lost with that
information.  Plus, you know what your gravity is so you can adjust the
boil time accordingly...

The measuring stick has a couple of problems, IMHO:

1. It can be difficult to look through the steam and try to determine
the liquid level.  Plus the surface of the wort is rolling, which makes
it difficult to measure accurately.

2. When you add an immersion chiller (if you use one) the level
changes.  Yeah, I could calibrate that, I guess, but measuring the
gravity seems so much easier.

Just a thought.

On another note, ran across this little proverb the other day, and well,

I liked it:

 -He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him

 -He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple - teach him
 -He who knows and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him
 -He who knows and knows that he knows, is wise - follow him

Maybe not beer related, but OTOH, it kinda applies around here.

Happy New Year

Kevin Elsken
Little Boy Brewery
North Strabane, PA

Gotta look up that Rennerian thing sometime...



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---